Interesting.
Traditions of the Apostles or the Roman Catholic church?

Catholic Tradition:
Life in the Spirit

Catholic Tradition often seems odd to those outside the Catholic Church.

People assume it's something that we just... "made up."

Sacred Tradition comes from Christ. It's the full, living gift of Christ to the Apostles, faithfully handed down through each generation. It is through Tradition that the Holy Spirit makes the Risen Lord present among us, offering us the very same saving Word and Sacraments that he gave to the Apostles!

Understanding Catholic Tradition is essential to understanding the Catholic Church and the Catholic Christian faith.

Tradition is "handed down"

The word "tradition" actually means handing down something to another person.

Scripture testifies to this meaning of Catholic Tradition as the normal mode of transmitting the Faith:

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thess 2:15)
"For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you...." (1 Cor 11:23)

"For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received...." (1 Cor 15:3)

"...I know whom I have believed [i.e., Jesus], and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me. Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us." (2 Tim 1:11-14)

"You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." (2 Tim 2:1-2)

"...I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 1:3)

This is the most basic meaning of Catholic Tradition: it is the true Faith itself, given to the Apostles by Christ and faithfully transmitted to each new generation. (Catechism, 77-78)

We often write Tradition, with a capital 'T', to mean Sacred Tradition. This Catholic Tradition is different from those traditions (small 't') that are merely customs, and which are not part of Divine Revelation.

The Apostolic source of Catholic Tradition

The Second Vatican Council ("Vatican II") wrote an important document called "On Divine Revelation" (Dei Verbum in Latin). It's quite readable, and contains definitive teaching on the full meaning of Catholic Tradition.

The Council notes the importance of seeing that Catholic Tradition is firmly rooted in the Apostles: it is Christ's whole gift to them, and to us. The Council writes:

In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations. Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the supreme God is brought to completion..., commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is the source of all saving truth and moral teaching, and to impart to them heavenly gifts.
(Dei Verbum, 7)
It is specifically this "commissioning of the Apostles" that is fulfilled in the handing on of Catholic Tradition.

The Apostles dedicated themselves to this mission, and they appointed other faithful men to succeed them and carry on their work. That same passage of Dei Verbum continues:

This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing.
(Dei Verbum, 7)
Catholic Tradition and Scripture

Many Protestants believe that Catholics look to Tradition instead of Scripture.

Not at all!

Catholic Tradition stands with Scripture in forming the one single deposit of the Faith. For Catholics, Sacred Tradition is not in opposition to Scripture: they compliment and confirm one another.

Vatican II's Dei Verbum speaks of "a close connection and communication between sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture": "both of them... [flow] from the same divine wellspring."

It says that "Sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity." The Church, "led by the light of the Spirit of truth, ...may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known." (Dei Verbum, 9)

This statement reveals another key aspect of Catholic Tradition: it is linked to the active work of the Holy Spirit.

The living experience of Christ
Through the Spirit

Pope Benedict XVI gave a beautiful catechesis on Catholic Tradition in late April, 2006. He says that we miss the profound meaning of Catholic Tradition if we see it only as the handing on of a static Revelation.

More than that, it is the active, continuous work of the Holy Spirit in our particular time: it makes real and tangible "the active presence of the Lord Jesus in his people, realized by the Holy Spirit".

Seeing Catholic Tradition as the active presence of Christ through the work of the Spirit is precisely what accomplishes the "transmission of the goods of salvation" to us:

Thanks to Tradition, guaranteed by the ministry of the apostles and their successors, the water of life that flowed from the side of Christ and his saving blood comes to the women and men of all times. In this way, Tradition is the permanent presence of the Savior who comes to meet, redeem and sanctify us in the Spirit through the ministry of his Church for the glory of the Father.
This reality of the divine action of the Holy Spirit within the Church is essential to understanding Catholic Tradition. It is what makes Sacred Tradition something far different than mere human traditions.

Through that same action of the Spirit, Catholic Tradition incorporates us into the Communion of the Saints. It ensures the connection "between the experience of the apostolic faith, lived in the original community of the disciples, and the present experience of Christ in his Church."

The Pope concludes:

Tradition is the living river that unites us to the origins, the living river in which the origins are always present, the great river that leads us to the port of eternity. In this living river, the word of the Lord...: "And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age", is fulfilled again (Matthew 28:20).
Through Catholic Tradition, the Holy Spirit works to bring the grace and truth of Christ into our own lives.

It's real. And it's living right now in the Catholic Church!

That's alot to digest. But i will just concerntrate on this part:




What if you find that tradition is in conflict with scriptures? What will YOU do?

Actually before this, how do you prove that traditions were handed down by Apostles since they were actually poor fishermen and nowadays the Roman Catholic church is heavily institutionalised?

FROM: " Silver and gold have I none..... " -Acts 3:6



TO:







How do you justify these sort of wealth and splendor owned and practiced by the Vatican with scriptures?

Question, where is it mentioned that the Apostles were poor? And, point of fact, not all of them were fishermen ... e.g. St. Matthew was a tax collector, Judas (the traitor was a scholar), St. Paul was a tent maker for the Roman army (and inherited his Roman citizenship from his father)

Personally, I have not found any Traditions that have come in conflict with scripture. From what I noticed and read, Tradition, that was established by the Church came before the Bible, as it is found in today's form, the 73 books that were compiled and redacted by the Church.

As far as wealth and splendor of the Church is concerned, is there anything wrong with that? The wealth of the Church has been slowly built up over the last 2000 years since its establishment by Christ Himself. However, Catholics need to keep reminding themselves that any riches given to us are blessings by God. Such blessings not solely for our benefit alone, but for doing work in His Holy Name to bring others into the faith ...

And for the record, were not Abraham, Jacob and Job of the OT, themselves quite rich? Successful men who tended large flocks and and ran business enterprises (or whatever passed as those during their time)


This post has been edited by khool: Dec 23 2015, 12:10 PM

"Silver and gold have i none"- Acts 3

Maybe not poor . But they did not build empires of wealth. "Sell all you have and follow me"?
Certainly they are not dressed as radiantly as the popes and seated on thrones as such, of whom Roman Catholics claim descended from Peter.

Blessings are to help the poor. Why keep them in the Vatican? Why adorn themselves while there is starvation in the world? Feed them. Sell the gold and help the world. That's the teaching of scriptures. Not hoard the wealth and dress in them like the pharisees of old.

Abraham, Jacob and Job were not new testament institutions of Jesus whom claimed traditional heritage.

There are many more traditions which are in conflict with scriptures. But suffice, wealth is an issue here with the popes and Vatican.

Do you subscribe to this pope's statement?



This post has been edited by prophetjul: Dec 23 2015, 03:14 PM

What makes you think the wealth of the Catholic Church is not used to help the poor? The Church runs a great many charitable organizations around the world ( https://www.facebook.com/notes/michael-sanc...99364450111086/ ) In order to run these charities it takes lots of money, how much I do not know, but with these many organizations, it must cost a pretty packet.

As far as Vatican is concerned, they store a great many items of value, art pieces, sculptures, texts ... all accumulated through the ages for posterity. These accumulated treasure are more often than not put up for display for all to see and enjoy. If the Church were to sell off all these treasures, there is no guarantee that the people who buy it would allow them to be available for all to view and experience. Moreover, the money gained from the sale of these artifacts will not last forever. What will happen once funds from the sales finish? Money of the Church, is kept in banks. In most cases, at a local parish level, all collected from parishioners during Mass or well meaning donors. And the monies collected is disbursed to all the various organizations run by the Church to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, give succor to the afflicted, heal the sick, etc etc.

No tithing is necessary as St Paul says,



For the Pope and bishops attire, again, is there anything in the Bible that prohibits them from wearing what they wear? The money collected by the church is always sufficient to feed and clothe and aid the poor, the Lord provides, we do not doubt Him, and no second guessing His blessings either. In addition, what is the basis of your statement about the Church 'hoarding' wealth? Are you privy to Church financial documents?

I used Abraham, Jacob and Joseph as examples because of that very fact they are of the OT, as Christ ALWAYS referenced the OT, being the promise, and His presence in the NT being the fulfillment of the promise, i.e. the salvation of mankind. This is where Church Tradition stems from. The OT is still very much relevant, and it binds to the NT seamlessly. No conflict or disparity. For the record, Abraham and Jacob being the respective heads of their households would put them on par as high priests of the family. Abraham himself was blessed by Melchizedek, the high priest. This being a time before priests were an actual formal vocation and title, so the heads of the households, the patriarchs, would often assume that role and carry out the rituals and lead the community and family in prayer.

A short answer to your last question, yes. Pope John Paul II is not proclaiming anything new or contrary to Christian belief. JP2 is merely echoing the paragraph in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (or CCC for short);


The rest of the contents of CCC please refer here ... http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/arch...sm/p123a9p3.htm

After all, Christ's commandment to us is;

JP2's statement definitely brings to mind this verse does it not?

Oh, a little nugget for any and all following this line of inquiry the following is Acts 3: 1 - 10



God bless!

This post has been edited by khool: Dec 23 2015, 04:13 PM

As you have posted in those pictures, all those silver and gold are not the private property of the clergy, bishops, or pope, but for the liturgical life of the Church. This is similar to offering the best for the worship of God.

And when Jesus was in Bethania, in the house of Simon the leper, There came to him a woman having an alabaster box of precious ointment, and poured it on his head as he was at table. And the disciples seeing it, had indignation, saying: To what purpose is this waste? For this might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. And Jesus knowing it, said to them: Why do you trouble this woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. For the poor you have always with you: but me you have not always. or she in pouring this ointment upon my body, hath done it for my burial. Amen I say to you, wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, that also which she hath done, shall be told for a memory of her. - Matt 26

Is the Muslim God Our God?

There are many things taught in Islam that are so radically opposed to what we believe as Catholic Christians, that some will say, "Well, perhaps they believe in one God, but the 'one God' they believe in is not the same God we believe in because, for example, the Koran teaches:

Women are inferior to men (Sura 4:34)

Men can, and even should, ‘beat’ their wives in some circumstances (Sura 4:34).

Belief in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ is false (Sura 4:157-159).

Belief in the divinity of Christ is blasphemy (Sura 5:72).

Belief in Jesus Christ as ‘the Son of God’ is grave error (Sura 19:35; 10:68).

Muslims are commanded to ‘fight against’ Christians and all who disagree with them. Sura 9:29 says:

Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the Religion of Truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

God wills moral as well as physical evil. In fact, Sura 37:94 says, ‘He [Allah] created you as well as what you do,’ whether good or evil.

‘God does not love the unbelievers’ (Sura 3:32).

And this is just to name a few areas of major disagreement. We could write volumes on the problems with Muslim doctrine.”

Many claim there is a point where errors regarding what “the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth” teaches become so far removed from the truth that it becomes necessary to say that God being spoken of is no longer "God" at all. My take is that as long as a person understands the basic metaphysical truth that God is “the one, merciful God,” then errors concerning what God has said, or what he has revealed about his inner life are simply errors about those things, not about God as the one, true God.

The same pope you quoted also wrote the following in his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope:

"Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God's self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside. Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the World, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection"

This post has been edited by yeeck: Dec 23 2015, 11:15 PM

Wishing all a Blessed Christmas and a Happy New Year.

aiyoyo....

The catholic church is one of the largest charitable organisations in the world.....as big or bigger than the red cross in coverage and penetration.

In case you didn't know....priests are bound by the vows of poverty...they only have pocket money for the day, and all live through the charity of their communities.

The current pope...he's a jesuit, that guy is broke as fuck. He's the last person that any robber should rob. All the blings you see anywhere, is not his. It's property of the community.

i

Some correction there. Not all priests are bound by the vows of poverty. Only those who are part of religious orders ("religious priests") have such vows (which means they cannot have personal possessions, i.e. all possessions belong to the community). Diocesan priests ("secular priests") do not have that vow and can have personal belongings. And please, no profanities in this thread!

This post has been edited by yeeck: Dec 24 2015, 01:19 AM

Good morning and a very Blessed Christmas to all!



Thank you Father Roderick Von Hogen!

This post has been edited by khool: Dec 25 2015, 08:53 AM

Amen!

i feel that the Roman Catholic displays too much wealth in the environment of their high priests and cardinals. Jesus did not do that.
There is never enough to feed the poor.



http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/...acts%202002.htm

So really the Christmas message from the pope is useless with so much displayed wealth while 1 in 9 human beings are starving.

Again, Abraham et al were not NT institutions. They owned personal wealth. You are looking at wrong context of application.AS heads of their respective families, they are the priests. However, in an institution like yours, its different. The institution have a different accountability.

So you believe that Christians and Muslims believe in the same god while the Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God?



Love one another as i have loved you. That commandment was from Jesus to believers. Not to non believers. Non believers need to know the Truth, not a politically correct statement. Faith comes by hearing the Truth and only then will they be set free.

Why do popes like to kiss graven images?



Ex 20
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

That is in conflict with scriptures, is it not?

God bless.

Hi..........Jesus was a middle eastern Jew.
He does not have BLUE EYES!

Regarding images, please refer to the earlier posts in this thread.

Al yaum, yuladu mina al-batul ad-dabitu el khaliqata bi asriha fi qabdateh.
Al yaum, yuladu mina al-batul ad-dabitu el khaliqata bi asriha fi qabdateh.
Al yaum, yuladu mina al-batul ad-dabitu el khaliqata bi asriha fi qabdateh.
Al-ladhi huwa bi jawharihi ghayiru malmus yudraju fi al-aqmita ka tiflen.

Al-ilahu al-ladhi thabbat assamawati qadiman munthu ul bad' yattadiu' fi mizwaden.
Al-ladhi amtara lish sha'bi manan fi al qafr yartadi min adh-dhadyiayni labana.
Fatanu ul bi'ati yastadi' il Majus.
Wa Ibnu ul Athra' yastaqbilu minhumu ul hadaya.

Nasjudu li miladika ayuha Al-Masih!
Nasjudu li miladika ayuha Al-Masih!
Nasjudu li miladika ayuha Al-Masih!
Fa arina dhuhuraka Al-Ilahi.

*

Hari ini telah lahir dari seorang Perawan, Dia yang menggenggam seluruh ciptaan di tangan-Nya.
Hari ini telah lahir dari seorang Perawan, Dia yang menggenggam seluruh ciptaan di tangan-Nya.
Hari ini telah lahir dari seorang Perawan, Dia yang menggenggam seluruh ciptaan di tangan-Nya.
Dia yang pada hakikat-Nya tak dapat tersentuh, kini terbalut dalam kain lampin sebagai seorang Anak.

Allah yang sejak semula menciptakan surga, kini terbaring dalam palungan.
Dia yang menghujankan manna kepada umat-Nya di padang gurun, kini diberi susu dari Ibu-Nya.
Sang Mempelai Gereja memanggil orang-orang Majus.
Putra dari Sang Perawan menerima persembahan dari mereka.

Kami menyembah kelahiran-Mu oh Kristus!
Kami menyembah kelahiran-Mu oh Kristus!
Kami menyembah kelahiran-Mu oh Kristus!
Perlihatkanlah juga kepada kami Teofani Ilahi-Mu.

*

Today is born of a Virgin, He who holds the whole creation in His hand.
Today is born of a Virgin, He who holds the whole creation in His hand.
Today is born of a Virgin, He who holds the whole creation in His hand.
He whose essence none can touch is bound in swaddling clothes as a Child.

God, who in the beginning established the heavens, lies in a manger.
He who rained manna on His people in the wilderness is fed on milk from His mother’s breast.
The Bridegroom of the Church summons the Wise men.
The Son of the Virgin accepts their gifts.

We worship Thy birth O Christ!
We worship Thy birth O Christ!
We worship Thy birth O Christ!
Show us also Thy Divine Theophany.

Kindly answer. Can't be looking for posts posted a while back

Pope Francis assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

Robert Mickens, the Vatican correspondent for the Catholic journal The Tablet, said the pontiff’s comments were further evidence of his attempts to shake off the Catholic Church’s fusty image, reinforced by his extremely conservative predecessor Benedict XVI. “Francis is a still a conservative,” said Mr Mickens. “But what this is all about is him seeking to have a more meaningful dialogue with the world.”

In a welcoming response to the letter, Mr Scalfari said the Pope’s comments were “further evidence of his ability and desire to overcome barriers in dialogue with all”.

In July, Francis signalled a more progressive attitude on sexuality, asking: “If someone is gay and is looking for the Lord, who am I to judge him?”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/eu...en-8810062.html


Jesus said: "I am the way, the Truth and the Life. No one goes to the father but through me" - John 14:6

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved . 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned : but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. - John 3