http://www.themalaymailonline.com/opinion/...nable-preachers

Prosperity heresy = 'prosperity gospel' heresy. The most notable preacher of prosperity gospel is Joel Osteen.

oh, THAT prosperity heresy ... funny, my wife doesn't like him, and she is from a Protie background.

It would be good for everyone, Catholics included, to see if at one time or another they held to some of the teachings listed in that Wiki page. e.g. some of the earlier heresies have been resurrected in modern day groups like Jehovah Witnesses. I laughed that there was even such a heresy I didn't even knew existed:

Sabellianism - Belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three characterizations of one God, rather than three distinct "persons" in one God.
(This is a common mistake I would say for some people when they try to explain the mystery of the Holy Trinity.)

Triclavianism - Belief that three, rather than four nails were used to crucify Christ and that a Roman soldier pierced him with a spear on the left, rather than right side. (I was like...duh!!!! There are groups that made this a dogma????)

This post has been edited by yeeck: Apr 20 2016, 11:59 AM

first time I heard of Triclavianism

Bro Yeeck, u ever encountered the JW before? I have, in Oz-land ... they told me that they do not believe that Jesus is the son of God, really dunno what to make of these yahoos ...

Yes, while they were on their house-to-house visits passing their Watchtower tracts.

The idea of venerating, even though on surface seems to be less "bad" as compared to worship, is also not something to be encouraged.
Paul who wrote most of the new testaments said this:
"4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building."

They wanted to give veneration to Paul as well but what did Paul say. Give all of the glory to God and none to him.
If Paul who has great influence on the letters refused to be venerated, then what about Mary, who was mentioned much less and even when mentioned, wasn't glorified like how catholics glorified her today.

Even if say catholic traditions are valid, shouldn't they be consistent with scriptures in the first place?

I would not really call Mary our mother in heaven. By what example are we supposed to follow to call Mary our mother in heaven. Jesus?
31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.

32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Based on this example, I guess mother shouldn't really be used exclusively for Mary.

I do not see Jesus placing Mary at such high importance as you guys. He never even referred to her as his mother. In that passage, Mary knew that Jesus will still solve the wine issue even though Jesus was not going to do it in public. Mary was probably expecting Jesus to start his ministry officially through his miracles, but then obviously the time is not right yet. If you go further through the passage, you will see Jesus start performing his miracles. But she still had faith that Jesus will solve the wine issue even after Jesus told her that his time is not here yet. The point is when you have faith, God will answer your prayer even though He may not do exactly what you want Him to do. You are reading too much pertaining to "Do whatever Jesus tells the servent to". It's really no different from "This guy is going to help us. Just do whatever he tells you to do". It's as innoncent as this. Really .I dunno how you guys can place such importance to Mary just based on this passage. Jesus would had done the same thing if 1 of his brothers requested him to change water to wine. It's a miracle but then it's not the greatest of miracles. It would have made very little difference if say his brother did the request. If we have to start placing importance on Mary based on this incidence, then shouldn't we also place importance on canaanite woman.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Apr 20 2016, 05:28 PM

Did Jesus Diss His Mom?

Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:19-21

Did Jesus diss His mom? I know this is a unusual question, but there are folks who actually believe that Jesus dishonored His mother, or actually corrected her in some manner in the above passage of Scripture.

Now think about it: do we honestly think that Jesus dissed His mom? Would Jesus intentionally disrespect His mama with folks surrounding Him, while she was waiting for Him? And then to do it in front of others – to openly embarrass her in front of the crowd? Is this how He expresses His love to His mother? Are you telling me that this is the example we are to follow?

Please remember that the Torah says:

“Honor your father and mother. Then you will live a long, full life in the land the Lord your God is giving you. (Ex 20:12)

The Torah is very serious when it comes to the importance of the family and the honoring of one’s parents in Israel.

The Torah also states:

“Anyone who dishonors father or mother must be put to death.” Ex 21:17

I don’t know about you, but I get the point! Lets see…hmmm…want to live a long life? Honor your parents! Want to live at all? Honor your parents!

The Jesus I know would never do this to His mom. Jesus fulfilled the Torah perfectly, which means that He honored His mom perfectly. Jesus would never fail or sin in fulfilling the letter and spirit of the Torah. Think about it. Only Mary had the perfect Son, which means that Jesus would love and honor her perfectly. Jesus is the perfect example for our lives, and He would be the perfect example as a son.

So, what do we make of this Scripture passage? First, we must remember not to make the mistake of interpreting Scripture without understanding it’s cultural and historical context. Secondly, we must see Scripture as working together, expressing Jesus as it’s focal point.

When we read the Gospels, we understand that Jesus is a Jew, living as a Jew, in the nation of Israel – in the first century. The very fabric of society and culture in the nation of Israel, was governed by the Torah. The Jew of that time would judge Jesus’ teaching (or torah, with a small “t”) and his ministry, by the Torah.

Jewish scholar and rabbi, Jacob Neusner in his book, A Rabbi Talks with Jesus, does this very thing. Neusner, a believing Jew, takes us to Israel and stands with the disciples as they listen to the “torah” of Jesus. In doing this, he is able to share the reaction of a Jew listening to Jesus for the first time.

Here is some of his discoveries:

1) In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus uses the words, “You have heard that it was said by them of old…but I say unto you…” Neusner states that a rabbi would never speak by his own authority, so that in effect, Jesus is speaking as one equal with God, replacing the Torah with Himself.

Of course as Christians, we understand Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. But to the Jews of Jesus’ day, this “torah” is understood as a discontinuity of Torah teaching from all the way back to Moses – and this helps us to understand their reaction.

“And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at His doctrine; for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.” Matt 7:28,29

The word astonished is more to be taken as shock.

2) When, on the Sabbath day, Jesus cries out:

“Come unto Me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.” Matt 11:28-30
“For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.” Matt 12:8

Rabbi Neusner’s reaction is that Jesus is now replacing Himself as the Sabbath. He cites the different passages when Jesus is in constant confrontation with the Pharisees. over the strict adherence to the Sabbath, and is alarmed that He is changing the central observance of the nation of Israel.

The Sabbath is understood as how the Jew may act as God does, in that when God rested on the seventh day, Israel rests in the same manner. But now, through the teaching of Jesus, the Sabbath is to be understood as a Person.

3) His teaching and action at the Temple, especially when He states:

But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. Matt 12:6

“All right,” Jesus replied. “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” “What!” they exclaimed. “It has taken forty-six years to build this Temple, and you can rebuild it in three days?” But when Jesus said “this temple,” he meant his own body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered he had said this, and they believed both the Scriptures and what Jesus had said. JN 2:19-22

Jesus now replaces the Temple with Himself as the center of worship, the place where the Jew would meet and fellowship with God.

4) What is curious, he specifically cites the words of Jesus that got us started in the first place.

Jesus asked, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” Then he pointed to his disciples and said, “Look, these are my mother and brothers. Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!” Matt 12:48-50

Rabbi Neusner understands Jesus’ words as directly confronting the Jewish understanding of the family, that is the very heart of the social order within the nation of Israel. He shares that the Jewish family connects them to the continuity handed down from Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, and Jacob, Leah and Rachel. This family is of eternal significance, in that the very land of Israel, is handed down by family.

Jesus now relates family relationships to Him, instead of a nation. The people of God is not limited to one people group – now, it is to be understood as the Church, encompassing all peoples, and all nations. Jesus replaces the nation of Israel with himself and His Body, a new family.

Conclusion

The impact of Jesus’ statement is fueled precisely because He did honor His mom perfectly. Notice that the crowd passed Mary’s message when she had arrived – this was the protocol Jesus always practiced in His ministry, that His mom would always have access to Him.

If Jesus did not treat His mother with honor and respect, He would not have been considered worthy to follow. His words would have fallen to deaf ears. He would not have fulfilled the Torah, and we would still be lost in our sins.

Scripture centers on Jesus: every word that He speaks is purposeful, full of meaning – and totally within His character and mission. Christ fulfilled the Torah perfectly, and His kingdom in turn reflects His character and mission.


A Kingdom Principle

The kingdom of God is reflected in Christ, and therefore in His Body the Church. We as the people of the kingdom are to reflect His character and purpose.

https://jimblazsik.wordpress.com/2010/06/14...s-diss-his-mom/

Imitation is the Biblical Form of Honor

The most important form of honoring the saints, to which all the other forms are related, is the imitation of them in their relationship with God. Paul wrote extensively about the importance of spiritual imitation. He stated: "I urge you, then, be imitators of me. Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church" (1 Cor. 4:16–17). Later he told the same group: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:1–2). The author of the book of Hebrews also stresses the importance of imitating true spiritual leaders: "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith" (Heb. 13:7).

One of the most important passages on imitation is found in Hebrews. Chapter 11 of that book, the Bible’s well-known "hall of fame" chapter, presents numerous examples of the Old Testament saints for our imitation. It concludes with the famous exhortation: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1)—the race that the saints have run before us.

You are right, Sylar111. All of God's servants humble themselves, including Mary "He looks upon his handmaid in her nothingness......". The Catholic view is that acknowledging, being inspired by and venerating those whom God has honored takes nothing away from God Himself. Much like a wise Professor who does not sulk when his students receive accolades for their own achievements, knowing that whatever recognition they receive, enhances his standing even more.

In term of volume of references to Mary in the bible, i would readily admit that she pales in comparison to Paul and in fact many other biblical characters like Abraham, Moses, King David or even the apostles. You may be surprised however to find that Catholics see references to Mary right from the book of Genesis to Revelation and those references to her, speak of her unique role in the history of Salvation and how God chose and worked through this lowly human maiden to bring his great plan of Salvation to fruition.
And unfortunately as you know, Catholics are not bound purely by Biblical references but also by centuries of inflection and study of theology (right from the earliest days of the church) to fully understand Christ role in our Salvation and the role played by Mary in it.
I do not expect a non catholic to call Mary "Queen of Heaven". This only comes after a fuller understanding and appreciation of how Catholics see Mary. In fact, we don't just call her Queen of Heaven. She is much more often and affectionately termed as "Mother of God", which I am sure you would agree, supersedes her title of Queen of Heaven.

As has been discussed at length before, Catholics do not view sacred tradition as conflicting with sacred scripture. In fact it is seen as being very complementary. It has to be since it was the church that compiled the bible. Catholics would go as far to say as reading the Bible as one would read an ordinary book without learning more about the history, context, language and culture in which it originated from can give rise to many false teachings and beliefs. This can surely be seen in that there are so many different interpretations even of singular verses of the Bible.

An example would be the verses from Luke 8:19-21 which you alluded to. One way some people have looked at it has been that Jesus is rebuking / belittling his mother and brethren in front of a crowd. This might of course seem out of keeping with Jesus. Another view is that Jesus was trying to teach us that even though we might not be his blood relative, we do not have to dismay for he considers all who do the will of His Father as His own. A third interpretation of these verses (which might not come across at first glance) actually sees Jesus as praising Mary. For who is it who has done the will of God to perfection? Luke 1:38 - Mary "May it be done to me according to Thy will". So Jesus is telling the crowd that Mary is not just my mother by virtue of being my biological mother but also spiritually because "She does the will of my Father".

There is also another verse from Luke that at first glance might appear that Jesus is belittling Mary. Luke 11:27-28: While He was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” Again it can be viewed in different ways. Negative or positive.
You might also want to compare these verses with Luke 1:41-45 - When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. How does this happen to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Similar exhortations by different women, but notice who is called the Blessed.

Regarding the Miracle at Cana - somehow I don't agree that Jesus was under any obligation to perform His first public miracle. There were many other instances in the Gospels where His disciples had asked him to do something but He disagreed and did not do so. eg: Matt 14:15 "send them away to the villages to eat"; Luke 9:49-50 - "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."; Luke 9:54-56 "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." I don't think the scale of the miracle matters - it was still a Divine intervention and sign.

We certainly will be able to debate the length and breath of the bible and Catholic beliefs in these pages. And as you can see, often, there is more than one side of the coin. However hopefully this discussion has shown you that Catholic practices definitely have biblical roots (and, sorry to repeat again, roots in Sacred Tradition) and that we are definitely not some "whore of Babylon" or "the anti-Christ" as some might gleefully claim.

Lastly, I can't promise to reply to all further inquiries after this as it is time consuming. Unless it is a very short and precise concern and can be answered quickly.

QUOTE(DRBS @ Apr 21 2016, 02:00 AM)
You are right, Sylar111. All of God's servants humble themselves, including Mary "He looks upon his handmaid in her nothingness......". The Catholic view is that acknowledging, being inspired by and venerating those whom God has honored takes nothing away from God Himself. Much like a wise Professor who does not sulk when his students receive accolades for their own achievements, knowing that whatever recognition they receive, enhances his standing even more.



In term of volume of references to Mary in the bible, i would readily admit that she pales in comparison to Paul and in fact many other biblical characters like Abraham, Moses, King David or even the apostles. You may be surprised however to find that Catholics see references to Mary right from the book of Genesis to Revelation and those references to her, speak of her unique role in the history of Salvation and how God chose and worked through this lowly human maiden to bring his great plan of Salvation to fruition.

>>The problem is, based on the scripture which I provided, even Paul advises that we should not be giving accolades towards him. In the new testament, only the 4 Gospels speaks of Mary. And it's very scant. There's hardly any accolades being given to her after that. In the old testament, the only verse that talks about Mary is Genesis 3:15. The other verses probably come from the apocrypha which are not recognize by the Jews by the way. I know that the Catholic Church has a low view of Jews but dun forget this
Romans 3
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

>>> I believe the scripture passage that you referred to was actually Paul correcting the people about jealousy and in-fighting among the themselves and how they should not be taking the camps of the leaders to elevate their status. The verse before this passage would confirm that.
I strongly agree with you that Paul exhorts us to humble ourselves before God. However, I am sure Paul does not means we should not give praise others, but only God. God has created many heroes who have gone before us and I believe it is only fitting that we give them praise and that this takes nothing away from God. That's what Catholics do with Mary and the Saints - we praise them. we imitate their faith and we ask them to pray for us.
>>>Catholics see Mary being referred to in the book of Isaiah, the most important book of the Scriptures to Jews. Also in the Psalms and The Book of Revelation. However I agree with you, this proves nothing.

And unfortunately as you know, Catholics are not bound purely by Biblical references but also by centuries of inflection and study of theology (right from the earliest days of the church) to fully understand Christ role in our Salvation and the role played by Mary in it.
I do not expect a non catholic to call Mary "Queen of Heaven". This only comes after a fuller understanding and appreciation of how Catholics see Mary. In fact, we don't just call her Queen of Heaven. She is much more often and affectionately termed as "Mother of God", which I am sure you would agree, supersedes her title of Queen of Heaven.
>>Maybe you do not realize the implication of calling Mary the Mother of God. It puts Mary on par or even above Jesus. Of course right now, you deny that you are worshiping Mary but then it's not surprising that many others are worshiping her because by putting Mary on par with Jesus and therefore God, there should be no problem worshiping her. Calling Mary the Mother of God also means that Mary should be compared with God the Father. You are probably going to deny this again but then think about it. That's the implication. Maybe openly, the catholic church denies Mary worship, but then in actual fact, attributing Mother of God to Mary actually elevates her position to God. Words do mean something especially when it comes to religion.

>>>If Jesus is truly God and Mary is his mother, then she is the Mother of God, no? God chose for it to be like that. God our Father chose for Jesus to have a human mother, the Mother of God.

As has been discussed at length before, Catholics do not view sacred tradition as conflicting with sacred scripture. In fact it is seen as being very complementary. It has to be since it was the church that compiled the bible. Catholics would go as far to say as reading the Bible as one would read an ordinary book without learning more about the history, context, language and culture in which it originated from can give rise to many false teachings and beliefs. This can surely be seen in that there are so many different interpretations even of singular verses of the Bible.
>>There are actually quite a few traditions that you practiced that contradict the scripture. But let's just discuss the examples above.

>>>Sure.

An example would be the verses from Luke 8:19-21 which you alluded to. One way some people have looked at it has been that Jesus is rebuking / belittling his mother and brethren in front of a crowd. This might of course seem out of keeping with Jesus. Another view is that Jesus was trying to teach us that even though we might not be his blood relative, we do not have to dismay for he considers all who do the will of His Father as His own. A third interpretation of these verses (which might not come across at first glance) actually sees Jesus as praising Mary. For who is it who has done the will of God to perfection? Luke 1:38 - Mary "May it be done to me according to Thy will". So Jesus is telling the crowd that Mary is not just my mother by virtue of being my biological mother but also spiritually because "She does the will of my Father".
>> I would not say that Jesus is belittling his mother. He is just stating facts thats all. I would say it's a combination of 1 and 2. He was not being disrespectful. He is just recognizing his actual position as compared to Mary that's all. Physically, she brought Jesus to the world. Spiritually, Mary was just another virtuous woman that's all. Mary still has to submit to Jesus even though she bore him. The same cannot be the same for our mothers right?

>>>You are right. Mary is a mere human being, nothing compared to God. But she was raised to be above all women, not just another virtuous woman. Mary submits to Jesus but as Her will and the will of the Father are so in sync with each other, there is no contradiction.

There is also another verse from Luke that at first glance might appear that Jesus is belittling Mary. Luke 11:27-28: While He was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” Again it can be viewed in different ways. Negative or positive.
>>It's pretty clear what this means. The focus should not be on Mary.

>>>Sorry. Actually I wanted this verse to be contrasted with the greeting from Elizabeth below. Similar, is it not? Yet, again Mary is called the Blessed among all women.
>>>Do you think Elizabeth's greeting to Mary is over the top? An exaggerated sycophantic cry of an over-excited cousin?

You might also want to compare these verses with Luke 1:41-45 - When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. How does this happen to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Similar exhortations by different women, but notice who is called the Blessed.
>>Look at the following verses
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Note the statement " Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God" and also "And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be." It's pretty clear that the concept of immaculate conception cannot be true because if that was true, Mary would not have been troubled as she would have known her sinless state. Also the statement, you have found favour with God shows clearly that she was just a normal person before the Angel visited her.

>>> It should be noted that throughout the bible, the Angel of God appears several times. However, it is only to Mary, that the greeting of "Hail, full of Grace! The Lord is with Thee. Blessed are thou among women" is bestowed.
>>>If this was the first time a mere human was ever addressed by God this way (not even Abraham, Moses or Elijah was addressed this way by the angels of God), wouldn't any one, whether sinless or not, be stunned or troubled? I would say, maybe only those who were very arrogant wouldn't be troubled. Humility should not be mistaken for sinfulness. Jesus was humble yet, even to accepting his cross. I am sure it is agreed that he was sinless. So while this does not prove the Immaculate Conception (which requires a much deeper reading and appreciation of bible and sacred tradition), it certainly does not disprove it, no?
>>> As mentioned above, none of the heroes of the Old testament was ever greeted as being full of Grace and blessed among all women. I would suggest that that certainly does not make Mary "Normal". If she was just happened to be the lucky girl who picked up the lucky ticket, why was Joseph and Elizabeth not greeted in the same was by the angel?


Regarding the Miracle at Cana - somehow I don't agree that Jesus was under any obligation to perform His first public miracle. There were many other instances in the Gospels where His disciples had asked him to do something but He disagreed and did not do so. eg: Matt 14:15 "send them away to the villages to eat"; Luke 9:49-50 - "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."; Luke 9:54-56 "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." I don't think the scale of the miracle matters - it was still a Divine intervention and sign.
>> Those examples you gave are not very great. The thing is, are they asking in accordance to God's will. I am not trying to imply that every prayer will be answered. But God do listen to all of our prayers.

>>> Agreed. Those were not good examples but it was to point out that we should not underestimate the significance of Jesus responding to Mary even though He felt that His time had not come yet.


7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

God do listen to our prayers and will answer them if it is in accordance to his will. As for Mary, it's clear that when Jesus performed the miracle, He was glorified in the end as well.
"Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee and it revealed his glory and his disciples believed in him". Similarly, I could also say that Jesus was not obligated to bless the Canaanite woman as well. So are we to now venerate the Canaanite woman?

>>>Regarding Canaanite woman, yes, we should praise her for Jesus praised her. She might not have a name or position but her faith is a model for us all.

We certainly will be able to debate the length and breath of the bible and Catholic beliefs in these pages. And as you can see, often, there is more than one side of the coin. However hopefully this discussion has shown you that Catholic practices definitely have biblical roots (and, sorry to repeat again, roots in Sacred Tradition) and that we are definitely not some "whore of Babylon" or "the anti-Christ" as some might gleefully claim.
>>That's still a subject for debate.

Lastly, I can't promise to reply to all further inquiries after this as it is time consuming. Unless it is a very short and precise concern and can be answered quickly.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Apr 22 2016, 07:57 PM

QUOTE(DRBS @ Apr 21 2016, 02:00 AM)
You are right, Sylar111. All of God's servants humble themselves, including Mary "He looks upon his handmaid in her nothingness......". The Catholic view is that acknowledging, being inspired by and venerating those whom God has honored takes nothing away from God Himself. Much like a wise Professor who does not sulk when his students receive accolades for their own achievements, knowing that whatever recognition they receive, enhances his standing even more.
In term of volume of references to Mary in the bible, i would readily admit that she pales in comparison to Paul and in fact many other biblical characters like Abraham, Moses, King David or even the apostles. You may be surprised however to find that Catholics see references to Mary right from the book of Genesis to Revelation and those references to her, speak of her unique role in the history of Salvation and how God chose and worked through this lowly human maiden to bring his great plan of Salvation to fruition.

>>The problem is, based on the scripture which I provided, even Paul advises that we should not be giving accolades towards him. In the new testament, only the 4 Gospels speaks of Mary. And it's very scant. There's hardly any accolades being given to her after that. In the old testament, the only verse that talks about Mary is Genesis 3:15. The other verses probably come from the apocrypha which are not recognize by the Jews by the way. I know that the Catholic Church has a low view of Jews but dun forget this
Romans 3
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

>>> I believe the scripture passage that you referred to was actually Paul correcting the people about jealousy and in-fighting among the themselves and how they should not be taking the camps of the leaders to elevate their status. The verse before this passage would confirm that.
I strongly agree with you that Paul exhorts us to humble ourselves before God. However, I am sure Paul does not means we should not give praise others, but only God. God has created many heroes who have gone before us and I believe it is only fitting that we give them praise and that this takes nothing away from God. That's what Catholics do with Mary and the Saints - we praise them. we imitate their faith and we ask them to pray for us.
>>>Catholics see Mary being referred to in the book of Isaiah, the most important book of the Scriptures to Jews. Also in the Psalms and The Book of Revelation. However I agree with you, this proves nothing.

>>>>At the same time, Paul is also highlighting that all of the glory should go to God. Of course we should admire Paul but I do not think Paul wants to receive the praise officially which you guys are doing.


>>>>>Not sure what is meant by praising officially. Do you mean praising in writing? In prayer? When complimenting someone other than God? By calling them saints?


And unfortunately as you know, Catholics are not bound purely by Biblical references but also by centuries of inflection and study of theology (right from the earliest days of the church) to fully understand Christ role in our Salvation and the role played by Mary in it.
I do not expect a non catholic to call Mary "Queen of Heaven". This only comes after a fuller understanding and appreciation of how Catholics see Mary. In fact, we don't just call her Queen of Heaven. She is much more often and affectionately termed as "Mother of God", which I am sure you would agree, supersedes her title of Queen of Heaven.
>>Maybe you do not realize the implication of calling Mary the Mother of God. It puts Mary on par or even above Jesus. Of course right now, you deny that you are worshiping Mary but then it's not surprising that many others are worshiping her because by putting Mary on par with Jesus and therefore God, there should be no problem worshiping her. Calling Mary the Mother of God also means that Mary should be compared with God the Father. You are probably going to deny this again but then think about it. That's the implication. Maybe openly, the catholic church denies Mary worship, but then in actual fact, attributing Mother of God to Mary actually elevates her position to God. Words do mean something especially when it comes to religion.

>>>If Jesus is truly God and Mary is his mother, then she is the Mother of God, no? God chose for it to be like that. God our Father chose for Jesus to have a human mother, the Mother of God.

>>>>Well, so now you admit that the Catholic Church actually worships Mary. Notice that Jesus never referred to Mary as Mother. Should have given you a clue. In other words, position wise, Mary should not really be considered Jesus Mother even though physically she is. So all this while, what you said about just venerating Mary is not true. You are actually worshiping Mary. As I have demonstrated earlier. The Catholic church has not been upfront in it's declaration. It talks about salvation through God's grace alone. But in actual fact. Individual works are still required. And now, it makes the claim that it only venerates Mary, but now you admit that Mary is at the position of God. So therefore in Catholic theology, there is nothing wrong in worshiping Mary. If there's nothing to hide, why do this?


>>>>>Sorry to keep harping on about this point, Sylar111. I am not sure what you mean by "Mary should not really be considered Jesus Mother even though physically she is". Is she Jesus's Mother?
>>>>>Not sure how it is concluded that calling Mary the Mother of God means we worship her, or that she is in the position of God. Do you mean to say that Mother of God is the same as God? I doubt any of us will say our mothers are the same as us.
>>>>>Is it OK to call Mary "the mother of our Lord"? Is it OK to call Mary "the mother of Jesus"? Is Jesus truly God? If so, I am not sure how we can be wrong to say Mary "is the mother of God".
>>>>>Sorry, but for the sake of clarity, I will not go into the theology of Salvation here as it is another lengthy topic and that has also been discussed at length previously.
>>>>>Not sure what the Church is being accused of hiding. As mentioned earlier, the Catholic church consistently and persistently condemns any person that claims Mary is God. Those that followed the heresy of Collyridians were ex-communicated.
>>>>>As mentioned earlier, if you come across any Catholics who worship Mary, by all means correct them.


As has been discussed at length before, Catholics do not view sacred tradition as conflicting with sacred scripture. In fact it is seen as being very complementary. It has to be since it was the church that compiled the bible. Catholics would go as far to say as reading the Bible as one would read an ordinary book without learning more about the history, context, language and culture in which it originated from can give rise to many false teachings and beliefs. This can surely be seen in that there are so many different interpretations even of singular verses of the Bible.
>>There are actually quite a few traditions that you practiced that contradict the scripture. But let's just discuss the examples above.

>>>Sure.

An example would be the verses from Luke 8:19-21 which you alluded to. One way some people have looked at it has been that Jesus is rebuking / belittling his mother and brethren in front of a crowd. This might of course seem out of keeping with Jesus. Another view is that Jesus was trying to teach us that even though we might not be his blood relative, we do not have to dismay for he considers all who do the will of His Father as His own. A third interpretation of these verses (which might not come across at first glance) actually sees Jesus as praising Mary. For who is it who has done the will of God to perfection? Luke 1:38 - Mary "May it be done to me according to Thy will". So Jesus is telling the crowd that Mary is not just my mother by virtue of being my biological mother but also spiritually because "She does the will of my Father".
>> I would not say that Jesus is belittling his mother. He is just stating facts thats all. I would say it's a combination of 1 and 2. He was not being disrespectful. He is just recognizing his actual position as compared to Mary that's all. Physically, she brought Jesus to the world. Spiritually, Mary was just another virtuous woman that's all. Mary still has to submit to Jesus even though she bore him. The same cannot be the same for our mothers right?

>>>You are right. Mary is a mere human being, nothing compared to God. But she was raised to be above all women, not just another virtuous woman. Mary submits to Jesus but as Her will and the will of the Father are so in sync with each other, there is no contradiction.

There is also another verse from Luke that at first glance might appear that Jesus is belittling Mary. Luke 11:27-28: While He was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” Again it can be viewed in different ways. Negative or positive.
>>It's pretty clear what this means. The focus should not be on Mary.

>>>Sorry. Actually I wanted this verse to be contrasted with the greeting from Elizabeth below. Similar, is it not? Yet, again Mary is called the Blessed among all women.
>>>Do you think Elizabeth's greeting to Mary is over the top? An exaggerated sycophantic cry of an over-excited cousin?

>>>>Question. Did Eliezabeth only greeted Mary this way after Mary was pregnant or before? Mary wasn't always so "blessed" until she gave birth to Jesus. I think we ourselves should not get too excited over this. When say one of our kids got accepted to a prestigious university, I am pretty sure that praises like "Kid is very smart". "Kid has a great future". "God really blessed you. Kid is very blessed to have a dad to support you. Etc. Of course after graduation, those kids could be considered more bless then those who did not receive a proper university education. This kid is mostly blessed afterwards as well. Just giving an example here. Giving birth to Jesus is obviously an incident of the magnitude of the highest order. She will be remembered for this incident forever. Its just the same as say Albert Einstein being remembered for a very long time for his theory of relativity. Albert Einstein could also be considered one of the greatest scientist for his theory of relativity. But let's not get carried away with this. She carried Jesus. Jesus has already existed since the beginning of time. Jesus did not owe his existence to Mary. She should be blessed because she brought Jesus to the world that's all. Notice that you even used " Her will and the will of the Father". In other words, even though you are denying this, you are putting Mary to the position of God subconsciously. No wonder so many catholics are worshiping her. By saying that it's wrong to worship Mary, you are actually acting hypocritically since Jesus never denied worship due to his position as being Equal to God.


>>>>>You are absolutely right. Mary is only blessed among all women because of her having the privilege of bearing, nursing and raising Jesus up. Without Him, she is nothing and might not even make it into the bible. But because of this great privilege, she is blessed among all women and occupy a very special place in the legion of saints. Mary's contribution to this is that she acceded to the Will of God so whole heartedly. God or Jesus does not owe her anything. She is but their lowly creature. However the plan of God required the free will of a Holy Receptacle. And God found that in Mary. That is why we copy her and call her our mother.
So you agree that she is to be called Blessed then? More than all other women? Full of Grace?
>>>>>Whether Mary was blessed by God before or after conceiving Jesus is another point. I am sure you noticed that she was called by Full of Grace and Blessed among all women before she even conceived.
>>>>> Let's not read too much into typos, ya? I am sure you we would like to keep this as civil as possible and not resort to accusations of idolatry and hypocrisy. If i am hypocritical in my heart or misled on this point, I sincerely seek God's forgiveness. If I am not though, it might be regarded as bringing false witness against another.


You might also want to compare these verses with Luke 1:41-45 - When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. How does this happen to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Similar exhortations by different women, but notice who is called the Blessed.
>>Look at the following verses
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Note the statement " Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God" and also "And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be." It's pretty clear that the concept of immaculate conception cannot be true because if that was true, Mary would not have been troubled as she would have known her sinless state. Also the statement, you have found favour with God shows clearly that she was just a normal person before the Angel visited her.

>>> It should be noted that throughout the bible, the Angel of God appears several times. However, it is only to Mary, that the greeting of "Hail, full of Grace! The Lord is with Thee. Blessed are thou among women" is bestowed.
>>>If this was the first time a mere human was ever addressed by God this way (not even Abraham, Moses or Elijah was addressed this way by the angels of God), wouldn't any one, whether sinless or not, be stunned or troubled? I would say, maybe only those who were very arrogant wouldn't be troubled. Humility should not be mistaken for sinfulness. Jesus was humble yet, even to accepting his cross. I am sure it is agreed that he was sinless. So while this does not prove the Immaculate Conception (which requires a much deeper reading and appreciation of bible and sacred tradition), it certainly does not disprove it, no?
>>> As mentioned above, none of the heroes of the Old testament was ever greeted as being full of Grace and blessed among all women. I would suggest that that certainly does not make Mary "Normal". If she was just happened to be the lucky girl who picked up the lucky ticket, why was Joseph and Elizabeth not greeted in the same was by the angel?
Regarding the Miracle at Cana - somehow I don't agree that Jesus was under any obligation to perform His first public miracle. There were many other instances in the Gospels where His disciples had asked him to do something but He disagreed and did not do so. eg: Matt 14:15 "send them away to the villages to eat"; Luke 9:49-50 - "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."; Luke 9:54-56 "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." I don't think the scale of the miracle matters - it was still a Divine intervention and sign.
>>>>How about Stephen then. Are we to venerate him?
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. In other versions "full of grace and power" are being used by the way


>>>>>Yup. He is known as St Stephen. We celebrate His feast day 27th December. Considered as the first martyr.


The point of the matter is, by carrying Jesus, Mary has done the most incredible thing ever as a human. So as stated, you are just trying to exaggerate something more then it should be.
Jesus was addressed in a similar way many times. Even though he was God, he was man as well. Did he get shocked? If say I knew of my piano skills. I know for sure that my piano skills are better then others. No one praised me of my piano skills for some person. A person come along praising my piano skills. Would I be shocked? No. Because I know that my piano skills are of a certain standard. But I could be humble and not get too occupied by the praises. If Mary was sinless, she would have an inkling of the state that she is in and it would not have shocked her.


>>>>>Mary was deeply troubled. Does that prove she was not sinless?
Jesus was troubled now and again - does that mean He was anything less than God? Does that mean He doubted His Father in Heaven? Wouldn't He have known that troubles were coming his way?



First of all, those heroes are mostly man. Secondly, I would admit that Mary did the most incredible thing ever. Dun mean to be rude. How can you compare Jesus with John the Baptist. Also you do realize that it was not Mary virtue alone that determines whether she carried Jesus. Jesus has to come from a genealogy which ends with Joseph and mary and started of with David. So it was not really her virtousness that is the determining factor but also her lineage and that of Joseph. So it's not really a lottery ticket as per say but the timing and also her heritage as well. Her virtuousness probably play a role but then I would argue that if say there's another woman who was just as virtous or even more virtous then Mary, she would not also get to carry Jesus because of her lineage. No matter how you slice it, you really cannot use that passage as an example of Mary ability to intercede for us. In fact, it's pretty clear that Jesus even told Mary politely that her request was not going to give him any glory and he fulfilled the request in a way that gave him the glory. To use this passage to justify your claims makes you and by proxy the catholic church looks very uncredible. Tell any non christians out there that Mary should be interceeding for us based on that passage and they will probably mock you even more. I admit that immaculation conception is catholic tradition and the catholic church will do anything to defend this even though it's clearly wrong.



>>>>>As mentioned above, Mary is venerated by virtue of God. No more, no less. All the praises given to her are meant to glorify God. All the dogmas attached to her are to demonstrate the power, glory and love of God, who raised a lowly vessel to work such marvels for her.
Mary's only doing in this whole picture of Salvation is her whole hearted, unconditional and eternal "yes" to the will of God.
>>>>>Thanks for being so concerned about us. Don't worry. We are being mocked all the time. God never promised us an easy ride, even though He did promise that the Gates of Hell would never hold out against His church. And if what you say is true, then we deserve that mocking.



>> Those examples you gave are not very great. The thing is, are they asking in accordance to God's will. I am not trying to imply that every prayer will be answered. But God do listen to all of our prayers.

>>> Agreed. Those were not good examples but it was to point out that we should not underestimate the significance of Jesus responding to Mary even though He felt that His time had not come yet.


7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

God do listen to our prayers and will answer them if it is in accordance to his will. As for Mary, it's clear that when Jesus performed the miracle, He was glorified in the end as well.
"Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee and it revealed his glory and his disciples believed in him". Similarly, I could also say that Jesus was not obligated to bless the Canaanite woman as well. So are we to now venerate the Canaanite woman?

>>>Regarding Canaanite woman, yes, we should praise her for Jesus praised her. She might not have a name or position but her faith is a model for us all.

>>>>She did not become as venerated as Mary did she? And what do you mean by praised. Keep in mind that she is still a sinner like the rest of us. Now, I dun think praising someone is an issue but venerating someone is going too overboard dun you think? After all, she is still a sinner.


>>>>>Veneration are for those heroes of faith, those who suffered for the sake of Christ, those who did God's will despite having a sword pierce their hearts, those who kept through till the end. Yes, we praise them. We imitate them. We venerate them. We ask them to pray for us.


We certainly will be able to debate the length and breath of the bible and Catholic beliefs in these pages. And as you can see, often, there is more than one side of the coin. However hopefully this discussion has shown you that Catholic practices definitely have biblical roots (and, sorry to repeat again, roots in Sacred Tradition) and that we are definitely not some "whore of Babylon" or "the anti-Christ" as some might gleefully claim.
>>That's still a subject for debate.

Lastly, I can't promise to reply to all further inquiries after this as it is time consuming. Unless it is a very short and precise concern and can be answered quickly.

Why is it important to call Mary as the Mother of God?

This really says more about Jesus than it does about Mary. This title exquisitely vanquishes a number of heresies about Jesus. For example, if you call Jesus the Son of God, this leaves open a number of questions.

Was he adopted as a Son of God, or was he Son of God by nature? (Obviously, if Mary was truly Mother of God, Jesus was God from the beginning.)
Was he human, or did he just appear to be human? (Again, Mary wouldn't be truly mother if he was not truly human.)
Was he one divine person, or two persons, divine and human? This title arose in a time when some of these controversies had arisen, and was added to our prayers as a way of inoculating against them.

Mary: Mother of God



Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinctpersons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.

The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary, the humble handmaid of the Lord.



Irenaeus

"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).



Hippolytus

"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).



Gregory the Wonderworker

"For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David" (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

"It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, ‘Hail, full of grace!’" (ibid., 2).



Peter of Alexandria

"They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs" (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

"We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God" (Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).



Methodius

"While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

"Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid., 14).



Cyril of Jerusalem

"The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).



Ephraim the Syrian

"Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God" (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).



Athanasius

"The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God" (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).



Epiphanius of Salamis

"Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).



Ambrose of Milan

"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?" (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).



Gregory of Nazianz

"If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead" (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).



Jerome

"As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing" (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).

"Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God" (Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).



Theodore of Mopsuestia

"When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation" (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).



Cyril of Alexandria

"I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?" (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).

"This expression, however, ‘the Word was made flesh’ [John 1:14], can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin ‘the Mother of God,’ not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word, being personally united, is said to be born according to the flesh" (First Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

"And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh" (Third Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema" (ibid.).



John Cassian

"Now, you heretic, you say (whoever you are who deny that God was born of the Virgin), that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be called the Mother of God, but the Mother only of Christ and not of God—for no one, you say, gives birth to one older than herself. And concerning this utterly stupid argument . . . let us prove by divine testimonies both that Christ is God and that Mary is the Mother of God" (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).

"You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God" (ibid., 2:5).



Council of Ephesus

"We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her" (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).



Vincent of Lerins

"Nestorius, whose disease is of an opposite kind, while pretending that he holds two distinct substances in Christ, brings in of a sudden two persons, and with unheard-of wickedness would have two sons of God, two Christs,—one, God, the other, man; one, begotten of his Father, the other, born of his mother. For which reason he maintains that Saint Mary ought to be called, not the Mother of God, but the Mother of Christ" (The Notebooks 12[35] [A.D. 434]).

This post has been edited by yeeck: Apr 22 2016, 11:41 PM