Hi!
Noobie here. Great thread.
I remember reading that our Catholic church now no longer condemns other religions or denominations. Sadly, this used to take place a lot in the past (until quite the recent past in fact). The church recognizes that every religion or denomination has differing levels of truth, and the Catholic church has the highest level (but not yet the complete truth). Some of the church's teachings are doctrines pronounced officially by the pope and these are not changeable. Other teachings may be modified over time.
Many from other religions or denominations who seek the full truth do gravitate towards the Catholic teaching over time. However that is not something for Catholics to gloat about, rather to be humbled that we have been chosen at an earlier time.
God bless

There are many accounts written about this Alberto chap from much more objective sources. Kindly start by reading Wikipedia

You might be surprised to know that even most main stream protestant apologists do not take the likes of him and chick tracts seriously.

Umm......but the query still remains.
Is it right for us to pray for others and to ask others to pray for us?
What about the times when we are unable to pray for ourselves - sick, distracted, unconscious, in danger, depressed, asleep, at the hour of our death?

So other people can pray for us?
It is not against First Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." ?

Your concern is that asking people who are alive vs people who have died (in Christ) to pray for us is different because one can hear us while the other cannot?

Sorry ifourtus,
The earlier query was in response to your second quote.
I think there also seems to be a misunderstanding as to what Catholics say or believe when they "pray" to the Saints and Mary.
A favourite prayer that is said is
"Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee;
blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen."


"Your earlier QUOTE

You may argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). In the one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel is not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. One has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever.

God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God's throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16)."

Jesus said: "I am the way, the Truth and the Life. No one goes to the father but through me" - John 14:6

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved . 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned : but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. - John 3

[/quote]

Well quoted, Prophetjul!
It is indeed an essential requisite for all who know Jesus to believe in Him. I guess that is why learning and teaching about Jesus and evangelization is so important.

One will have to first have to have heard of Him, then know Him. And know Him correctly before believing in Him.

However this raises a concern that whole swathes of people and communities will be automatically be disqualified from any chance of salvation for despite the best of Evangelical efforts, it would be impossible to all people to have heard of Him, let alone know Him, then to know Him correctly and then to believe in Him.
This may include some of the following: -
- Very rural communities with no access to outside information
- uneducated folk
- those living in areas where religion or Christianity is banned?
- people who have understood wrong depictions or misinterpretations of Jesus?
- babies?
What, in your opinion, will God do to these people, Prophetjul?

Thank you Sylar111. That is exactly what we do.
I think this dialogue has gone in circles for far too long. There seems to be a discordance between what Catholics practice and teach and what others think we practice. This seems to be especially so for our practice of honoring Mary, the saints and all of the heroes that have gone before us.

You can rest assured that whatever the Church teaches (which is the same throughout the centuries), has its roots in Sacred Scripture and Sacred tradition which has been defended at length by Yeeck. If you would like to know more about the teachings of the Catholic faith, you will be best served to read the teachings and beliefs of the Church as espoused in The Catechism of the Catholic faith. It is easily available online.

I would readily admit that if you look hard enough, you may come across some Catholics who actually put Mary at the same level as God. If you do find them, by all means, you have the churches blessing in correcting them and asking them to relearn the Catholic faith. In fact, this was actually done in the early history of the Catholic Church in a heresy called Collyridianism. The Church then stamped it out and it died off as a heresy.

As for your examples - "saying your Hail Mary a thousand times" - most Catholics would gladly admit to this for it is one of our favorite prayers.
If we understand Mary to be our mother in heaven, the first among us who has gone ahead, she who so willingly said "yes" to God and exhorted us to "Do whatever Jesus tells us to"; then the prayer makes perfect sense. It goes like this
"Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen. "

"Kneeling down towards Mary" - if by doing this, a Catholic is putting Mary on the same pedestal with God, then by all means, let them be corrected. However it might be difficult to know whether one is worshiping another by kneeling down. Unfortunately I did exactly that when I proposed marriage to my wife. Much as I love her, I am very sure I did not put her on the same level as God.

"giving her special names like Queen of Heaven" - as you would have seen in the Liturgy to the blessed virgin, we call her much more than just "Queen of Heaven". She is after all the true Queen Mother of the true King. Yes, the term "Queen of Heaven" in the Old Testament refers to the Goddesses of the pagans of old. Surely it could not have been referring to worship of Mary at a time before she was born. Just as Christmas used to be a pagan festival, it was replaced as a festival to commemorate the birth of Our Savior.

"Mary as a Good Luck Charm" - no Catholic is taught to use anything as a good luck charm. It is idolatry. Again, feel free to correct any Catholic, or Christian for that matter, who uses any good luck charms.

We thank you for your concern for the souls of Catholics. Please pray for us, and we will do the same for you.

Yes, of course one can go directly to God. But being humans, we also like to ask others to pray for us. Especially for the times when we are not able to pray for ourselves (too busy, asleep, sick, dying etc).
And it makes a lot of sense to ask those who have gone before us, those who have fought the good fight and run the good race and who are living in communion with our Heavenly Father, to be our main cheer leaders in running the race. You might recall, even the rich man in the story of Lazarus, who was condemned, wanted to intercede for his remaining family who were still on earth. How much more must is be for our brothers and sisters in Christ who are now with God.
The catholic church looks upon it all as a giant family. The church is also divided into the Church militant, the church suffering and the Church triumphant. Those who have gone before us to heaven is the church triumphant. We are in communion with them in worshiping our Heavenly Father.

You are right, Sylar111. All of God's servants humble themselves, including Mary "He looks upon his handmaid in her nothingness......". The Catholic view is that acknowledging, being inspired by and venerating those whom God has honored takes nothing away from God Himself. Much like a wise Professor who does not sulk when his students receive accolades for their own achievements, knowing that whatever recognition they receive, enhances his standing even more.

In term of volume of references to Mary in the bible, i would readily admit that she pales in comparison to Paul and in fact many other biblical characters like Abraham, Moses, King David or even the apostles. You may be surprised however to find that Catholics see references to Mary right from the book of Genesis to Revelation and those references to her, speak of her unique role in the history of Salvation and how God chose and worked through this lowly human maiden to bring his great plan of Salvation to fruition.
And unfortunately as you know, Catholics are not bound purely by Biblical references but also by centuries of inflection and study of theology (right from the earliest days of the church) to fully understand Christ role in our Salvation and the role played by Mary in it.
I do not expect a non catholic to call Mary "Queen of Heaven". This only comes after a fuller understanding and appreciation of how Catholics see Mary. In fact, we don't just call her Queen of Heaven. She is much more often and affectionately termed as "Mother of God", which I am sure you would agree, supersedes her title of Queen of Heaven.

As has been discussed at length before, Catholics do not view sacred tradition as conflicting with sacred scripture. In fact it is seen as being very complementary. It has to be since it was the church that compiled the bible. Catholics would go as far to say as reading the Bible as one would read an ordinary book without learning more about the history, context, language and culture in which it originated from can give rise to many false teachings and beliefs. This can surely be seen in that there are so many different interpretations even of singular verses of the Bible.

An example would be the verses from Luke 8:19-21 which you alluded to. One way some people have looked at it has been that Jesus is rebuking / belittling his mother and brethren in front of a crowd. This might of course seem out of keeping with Jesus. Another view is that Jesus was trying to teach us that even though we might not be his blood relative, we do not have to dismay for he considers all who do the will of His Father as His own. A third interpretation of these verses (which might not come across at first glance) actually sees Jesus as praising Mary. For who is it who has done the will of God to perfection? Luke 1:38 - Mary "May it be done to me according to Thy will". So Jesus is telling the crowd that Mary is not just my mother by virtue of being my biological mother but also spiritually because "She does the will of my Father".

There is also another verse from Luke that at first glance might appear that Jesus is belittling Mary. Luke 11:27-28: While He was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” Again it can be viewed in different ways. Negative or positive.
You might also want to compare these verses with Luke 1:41-45 - When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. How does this happen to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Similar exhortations by different women, but notice who is called the Blessed.

Regarding the Miracle at Cana - somehow I don't agree that Jesus was under any obligation to perform His first public miracle. There were many other instances in the Gospels where His disciples had asked him to do something but He disagreed and did not do so. eg: Matt 14:15 "send them away to the villages to eat"; Luke 9:49-50 - "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."; Luke 9:54-56 "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." I don't think the scale of the miracle matters - it was still a Divine intervention and sign.

We certainly will be able to debate the length and breath of the bible and Catholic beliefs in these pages. And as you can see, often, there is more than one side of the coin. However hopefully this discussion has shown you that Catholic practices definitely have biblical roots (and, sorry to repeat again, roots in Sacred Tradition) and that we are definitely not some "whore of Babylon" or "the anti-Christ" as some might gleefully claim.

Lastly, I can't promise to reply to all further inquiries after this as it is time consuming. Unless it is a very short and precise concern and can be answered quickly.

QUOTE(DRBS @ Apr 21 2016, 02:00 AM)
You are right, Sylar111. All of God's servants humble themselves, including Mary "He looks upon his handmaid in her nothingness......". The Catholic view is that acknowledging, being inspired by and venerating those whom God has honored takes nothing away from God Himself. Much like a wise Professor who does not sulk when his students receive accolades for their own achievements, knowing that whatever recognition they receive, enhances his standing even more.



In term of volume of references to Mary in the bible, i would readily admit that she pales in comparison to Paul and in fact many other biblical characters like Abraham, Moses, King David or even the apostles. You may be surprised however to find that Catholics see references to Mary right from the book of Genesis to Revelation and those references to her, speak of her unique role in the history of Salvation and how God chose and worked through this lowly human maiden to bring his great plan of Salvation to fruition.

>>The problem is, based on the scripture which I provided, even Paul advises that we should not be giving accolades towards him. In the new testament, only the 4 Gospels speaks of Mary. And it's very scant. There's hardly any accolades being given to her after that. In the old testament, the only verse that talks about Mary is Genesis 3:15. The other verses probably come from the apocrypha which are not recognize by the Jews by the way. I know that the Catholic Church has a low view of Jews but dun forget this
Romans 3
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

>>> I believe the scripture passage that you referred to was actually Paul correcting the people about jealousy and in-fighting among the themselves and how they should not be taking the camps of the leaders to elevate their status. The verse before this passage would confirm that.
I strongly agree with you that Paul exhorts us to humble ourselves before God. However, I am sure Paul does not means we should not give praise others, but only God. God has created many heroes who have gone before us and I believe it is only fitting that we give them praise and that this takes nothing away from God. That's what Catholics do with Mary and the Saints - we praise them. we imitate their faith and we ask them to pray for us.
>>>Catholics see Mary being referred to in the book of Isaiah, the most important book of the Scriptures to Jews. Also in the Psalms and The Book of Revelation. However I agree with you, this proves nothing.

And unfortunately as you know, Catholics are not bound purely by Biblical references but also by centuries of inflection and study of theology (right from the earliest days of the church) to fully understand Christ role in our Salvation and the role played by Mary in it.
I do not expect a non catholic to call Mary "Queen of Heaven". This only comes after a fuller understanding and appreciation of how Catholics see Mary. In fact, we don't just call her Queen of Heaven. She is much more often and affectionately termed as "Mother of God", which I am sure you would agree, supersedes her title of Queen of Heaven.
>>Maybe you do not realize the implication of calling Mary the Mother of God. It puts Mary on par or even above Jesus. Of course right now, you deny that you are worshiping Mary but then it's not surprising that many others are worshiping her because by putting Mary on par with Jesus and therefore God, there should be no problem worshiping her. Calling Mary the Mother of God also means that Mary should be compared with God the Father. You are probably going to deny this again but then think about it. That's the implication. Maybe openly, the catholic church denies Mary worship, but then in actual fact, attributing Mother of God to Mary actually elevates her position to God. Words do mean something especially when it comes to religion.

>>>If Jesus is truly God and Mary is his mother, then she is the Mother of God, no? God chose for it to be like that. God our Father chose for Jesus to have a human mother, the Mother of God.

As has been discussed at length before, Catholics do not view sacred tradition as conflicting with sacred scripture. In fact it is seen as being very complementary. It has to be since it was the church that compiled the bible. Catholics would go as far to say as reading the Bible as one would read an ordinary book without learning more about the history, context, language and culture in which it originated from can give rise to many false teachings and beliefs. This can surely be seen in that there are so many different interpretations even of singular verses of the Bible.
>>There are actually quite a few traditions that you practiced that contradict the scripture. But let's just discuss the examples above.

>>>Sure.

An example would be the verses from Luke 8:19-21 which you alluded to. One way some people have looked at it has been that Jesus is rebuking / belittling his mother and brethren in front of a crowd. This might of course seem out of keeping with Jesus. Another view is that Jesus was trying to teach us that even though we might not be his blood relative, we do not have to dismay for he considers all who do the will of His Father as His own. A third interpretation of these verses (which might not come across at first glance) actually sees Jesus as praising Mary. For who is it who has done the will of God to perfection? Luke 1:38 - Mary "May it be done to me according to Thy will". So Jesus is telling the crowd that Mary is not just my mother by virtue of being my biological mother but also spiritually because "She does the will of my Father".
>> I would not say that Jesus is belittling his mother. He is just stating facts thats all. I would say it's a combination of 1 and 2. He was not being disrespectful. He is just recognizing his actual position as compared to Mary that's all. Physically, she brought Jesus to the world. Spiritually, Mary was just another virtuous woman that's all. Mary still has to submit to Jesus even though she bore him. The same cannot be the same for our mothers right?

>>>You are right. Mary is a mere human being, nothing compared to God. But she was raised to be above all women, not just another virtuous woman. Mary submits to Jesus but as Her will and the will of the Father are so in sync with each other, there is no contradiction.

There is also another verse from Luke that at first glance might appear that Jesus is belittling Mary. Luke 11:27-28: While He was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” Again it can be viewed in different ways. Negative or positive.
>>It's pretty clear what this means. The focus should not be on Mary.

>>>Sorry. Actually I wanted this verse to be contrasted with the greeting from Elizabeth below. Similar, is it not? Yet, again Mary is called the Blessed among all women.
>>>Do you think Elizabeth's greeting to Mary is over the top? An exaggerated sycophantic cry of an over-excited cousin?

You might also want to compare these verses with Luke 1:41-45 - When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. How does this happen to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Similar exhortations by different women, but notice who is called the Blessed.
>>Look at the following verses
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Note the statement " Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God" and also "And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be." It's pretty clear that the concept of immaculate conception cannot be true because if that was true, Mary would not have been troubled as she would have known her sinless state. Also the statement, you have found favour with God shows clearly that she was just a normal person before the Angel visited her.

>>> It should be noted that throughout the bible, the Angel of God appears several times. However, it is only to Mary, that the greeting of "Hail, full of Grace! The Lord is with Thee. Blessed are thou among women" is bestowed.
>>>If this was the first time a mere human was ever addressed by God this way (not even Abraham, Moses or Elijah was addressed this way by the angels of God), wouldn't any one, whether sinless or not, be stunned or troubled? I would say, maybe only those who were very arrogant wouldn't be troubled. Humility should not be mistaken for sinfulness. Jesus was humble yet, even to accepting his cross. I am sure it is agreed that he was sinless. So while this does not prove the Immaculate Conception (which requires a much deeper reading and appreciation of bible and sacred tradition), it certainly does not disprove it, no?
>>> As mentioned above, none of the heroes of the Old testament was ever greeted as being full of Grace and blessed among all women. I would suggest that that certainly does not make Mary "Normal". If she was just happened to be the lucky girl who picked up the lucky ticket, why was Joseph and Elizabeth not greeted in the same was by the angel?


Regarding the Miracle at Cana - somehow I don't agree that Jesus was under any obligation to perform His first public miracle. There were many other instances in the Gospels where His disciples had asked him to do something but He disagreed and did not do so. eg: Matt 14:15 "send them away to the villages to eat"; Luke 9:49-50 - "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."; Luke 9:54-56 "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." I don't think the scale of the miracle matters - it was still a Divine intervention and sign.
>> Those examples you gave are not very great. The thing is, are they asking in accordance to God's will. I am not trying to imply that every prayer will be answered. But God do listen to all of our prayers.

>>> Agreed. Those were not good examples but it was to point out that we should not underestimate the significance of Jesus responding to Mary even though He felt that His time had not come yet.


7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

God do listen to our prayers and will answer them if it is in accordance to his will. As for Mary, it's clear that when Jesus performed the miracle, He was glorified in the end as well.
"Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee and it revealed his glory and his disciples believed in him". Similarly, I could also say that Jesus was not obligated to bless the Canaanite woman as well. So are we to now venerate the Canaanite woman?

>>>Regarding Canaanite woman, yes, we should praise her for Jesus praised her. She might not have a name or position but her faith is a model for us all.

We certainly will be able to debate the length and breath of the bible and Catholic beliefs in these pages. And as you can see, often, there is more than one side of the coin. However hopefully this discussion has shown you that Catholic practices definitely have biblical roots (and, sorry to repeat again, roots in Sacred Tradition) and that we are definitely not some "whore of Babylon" or "the anti-Christ" as some might gleefully claim.
>>That's still a subject for debate.

Lastly, I can't promise to reply to all further inquiries after this as it is time consuming. Unless it is a very short and precise concern and can be answered quickly.

QUOTE(DRBS @ Apr 21 2016, 02:00 AM)
You are right, Sylar111. All of God's servants humble themselves, including Mary "He looks upon his handmaid in her nothingness......". The Catholic view is that acknowledging, being inspired by and venerating those whom God has honored takes nothing away from God Himself. Much like a wise Professor who does not sulk when his students receive accolades for their own achievements, knowing that whatever recognition they receive, enhances his standing even more.
In term of volume of references to Mary in the bible, i would readily admit that she pales in comparison to Paul and in fact many other biblical characters like Abraham, Moses, King David or even the apostles. You may be surprised however to find that Catholics see references to Mary right from the book of Genesis to Revelation and those references to her, speak of her unique role in the history of Salvation and how God chose and worked through this lowly human maiden to bring his great plan of Salvation to fruition.

>>The problem is, based on the scripture which I provided, even Paul advises that we should not be giving accolades towards him. In the new testament, only the 4 Gospels speaks of Mary. And it's very scant. There's hardly any accolades being given to her after that. In the old testament, the only verse that talks about Mary is Genesis 3:15. The other verses probably come from the apocrypha which are not recognize by the Jews by the way. I know that the Catholic Church has a low view of Jews but dun forget this
Romans 3
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

>>> I believe the scripture passage that you referred to was actually Paul correcting the people about jealousy and in-fighting among the themselves and how they should not be taking the camps of the leaders to elevate their status. The verse before this passage would confirm that.
I strongly agree with you that Paul exhorts us to humble ourselves before God. However, I am sure Paul does not means we should not give praise others, but only God. God has created many heroes who have gone before us and I believe it is only fitting that we give them praise and that this takes nothing away from God. That's what Catholics do with Mary and the Saints - we praise them. we imitate their faith and we ask them to pray for us.
>>>Catholics see Mary being referred to in the book of Isaiah, the most important book of the Scriptures to Jews. Also in the Psalms and The Book of Revelation. However I agree with you, this proves nothing.

>>>>At the same time, Paul is also highlighting that all of the glory should go to God. Of course we should admire Paul but I do not think Paul wants to receive the praise officially which you guys are doing.


>>>>>Not sure what is meant by praising officially. Do you mean praising in writing? In prayer? When complimenting someone other than God? By calling them saints?


And unfortunately as you know, Catholics are not bound purely by Biblical references but also by centuries of inflection and study of theology (right from the earliest days of the church) to fully understand Christ role in our Salvation and the role played by Mary in it.
I do not expect a non catholic to call Mary "Queen of Heaven". This only comes after a fuller understanding and appreciation of how Catholics see Mary. In fact, we don't just call her Queen of Heaven. She is much more often and affectionately termed as "Mother of God", which I am sure you would agree, supersedes her title of Queen of Heaven.
>>Maybe you do not realize the implication of calling Mary the Mother of God. It puts Mary on par or even above Jesus. Of course right now, you deny that you are worshiping Mary but then it's not surprising that many others are worshiping her because by putting Mary on par with Jesus and therefore God, there should be no problem worshiping her. Calling Mary the Mother of God also means that Mary should be compared with God the Father. You are probably going to deny this again but then think about it. That's the implication. Maybe openly, the catholic church denies Mary worship, but then in actual fact, attributing Mother of God to Mary actually elevates her position to God. Words do mean something especially when it comes to religion.

>>>If Jesus is truly God and Mary is his mother, then she is the Mother of God, no? God chose for it to be like that. God our Father chose for Jesus to have a human mother, the Mother of God.

>>>>Well, so now you admit that the Catholic Church actually worships Mary. Notice that Jesus never referred to Mary as Mother. Should have given you a clue. In other words, position wise, Mary should not really be considered Jesus Mother even though physically she is. So all this while, what you said about just venerating Mary is not true. You are actually worshiping Mary. As I have demonstrated earlier. The Catholic church has not been upfront in it's declaration. It talks about salvation through God's grace alone. But in actual fact. Individual works are still required. And now, it makes the claim that it only venerates Mary, but now you admit that Mary is at the position of God. So therefore in Catholic theology, there is nothing wrong in worshiping Mary. If there's nothing to hide, why do this?


>>>>>Sorry to keep harping on about this point, Sylar111. I am not sure what you mean by "Mary should not really be considered Jesus Mother even though physically she is". Is she Jesus's Mother?
>>>>>Not sure how it is concluded that calling Mary the Mother of God means we worship her, or that she is in the position of God. Do you mean to say that Mother of God is the same as God? I doubt any of us will say our mothers are the same as us.
>>>>>Is it OK to call Mary "the mother of our Lord"? Is it OK to call Mary "the mother of Jesus"? Is Jesus truly God? If so, I am not sure how we can be wrong to say Mary "is the mother of God".
>>>>>Sorry, but for the sake of clarity, I will not go into the theology of Salvation here as it is another lengthy topic and that has also been discussed at length previously.
>>>>>Not sure what the Church is being accused of hiding. As mentioned earlier, the Catholic church consistently and persistently condemns any person that claims Mary is God. Those that followed the heresy of Collyridians were ex-communicated.
>>>>>As mentioned earlier, if you come across any Catholics who worship Mary, by all means correct them.


As has been discussed at length before, Catholics do not view sacred tradition as conflicting with sacred scripture. In fact it is seen as being very complementary. It has to be since it was the church that compiled the bible. Catholics would go as far to say as reading the Bible as one would read an ordinary book without learning more about the history, context, language and culture in which it originated from can give rise to many false teachings and beliefs. This can surely be seen in that there are so many different interpretations even of singular verses of the Bible.
>>There are actually quite a few traditions that you practiced that contradict the scripture. But let's just discuss the examples above.

>>>Sure.

An example would be the verses from Luke 8:19-21 which you alluded to. One way some people have looked at it has been that Jesus is rebuking / belittling his mother and brethren in front of a crowd. This might of course seem out of keeping with Jesus. Another view is that Jesus was trying to teach us that even though we might not be his blood relative, we do not have to dismay for he considers all who do the will of His Father as His own. A third interpretation of these verses (which might not come across at first glance) actually sees Jesus as praising Mary. For who is it who has done the will of God to perfection? Luke 1:38 - Mary "May it be done to me according to Thy will". So Jesus is telling the crowd that Mary is not just my mother by virtue of being my biological mother but also spiritually because "She does the will of my Father".
>> I would not say that Jesus is belittling his mother. He is just stating facts thats all. I would say it's a combination of 1 and 2. He was not being disrespectful. He is just recognizing his actual position as compared to Mary that's all. Physically, she brought Jesus to the world. Spiritually, Mary was just another virtuous woman that's all. Mary still has to submit to Jesus even though she bore him. The same cannot be the same for our mothers right?

>>>You are right. Mary is a mere human being, nothing compared to God. But she was raised to be above all women, not just another virtuous woman. Mary submits to Jesus but as Her will and the will of the Father are so in sync with each other, there is no contradiction.

There is also another verse from Luke that at first glance might appear that Jesus is belittling Mary. Luke 11:27-28: While He was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” Again it can be viewed in different ways. Negative or positive.
>>It's pretty clear what this means. The focus should not be on Mary.

>>>Sorry. Actually I wanted this verse to be contrasted with the greeting from Elizabeth below. Similar, is it not? Yet, again Mary is called the Blessed among all women.
>>>Do you think Elizabeth's greeting to Mary is over the top? An exaggerated sycophantic cry of an over-excited cousin?

>>>>Question. Did Eliezabeth only greeted Mary this way after Mary was pregnant or before? Mary wasn't always so "blessed" until she gave birth to Jesus. I think we ourselves should not get too excited over this. When say one of our kids got accepted to a prestigious university, I am pretty sure that praises like "Kid is very smart". "Kid has a great future". "God really blessed you. Kid is very blessed to have a dad to support you. Etc. Of course after graduation, those kids could be considered more bless then those who did not receive a proper university education. This kid is mostly blessed afterwards as well. Just giving an example here. Giving birth to Jesus is obviously an incident of the magnitude of the highest order. She will be remembered for this incident forever. Its just the same as say Albert Einstein being remembered for a very long time for his theory of relativity. Albert Einstein could also be considered one of the greatest scientist for his theory of relativity. But let's not get carried away with this. She carried Jesus. Jesus has already existed since the beginning of time. Jesus did not owe his existence to Mary. She should be blessed because she brought Jesus to the world that's all. Notice that you even used " Her will and the will of the Father". In other words, even though you are denying this, you are putting Mary to the position of God subconsciously. No wonder so many catholics are worshiping her. By saying that it's wrong to worship Mary, you are actually acting hypocritically since Jesus never denied worship due to his position as being Equal to God.


>>>>>You are absolutely right. Mary is only blessed among all women because of her having the privilege of bearing, nursing and raising Jesus up. Without Him, she is nothing and might not even make it into the bible. But because of this great privilege, she is blessed among all women and occupy a very special place in the legion of saints. Mary's contribution to this is that she acceded to the Will of God so whole heartedly. God or Jesus does not owe her anything. She is but their lowly creature. However the plan of God required the free will of a Holy Receptacle. And God found that in Mary. That is why we copy her and call her our mother.
So you agree that she is to be called Blessed then? More than all other women? Full of Grace?
>>>>>Whether Mary was blessed by God before or after conceiving Jesus is another point. I am sure you noticed that she was called by Full of Grace and Blessed among all women before she even conceived.
>>>>> Let's not read too much into typos, ya? I am sure you we would like to keep this as civil as possible and not resort to accusations of idolatry and hypocrisy. If i am hypocritical in my heart or misled on this point, I sincerely seek God's forgiveness. If I am not though, it might be regarded as bringing false witness against another.


You might also want to compare these verses with Luke 1:41-45 - When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. How does this happen to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Similar exhortations by different women, but notice who is called the Blessed.
>>Look at the following verses
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Note the statement " Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God" and also "And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be." It's pretty clear that the concept of immaculate conception cannot be true because if that was true, Mary would not have been troubled as she would have known her sinless state. Also the statement, you have found favour with God shows clearly that she was just a normal person before the Angel visited her.

>>> It should be noted that throughout the bible, the Angel of God appears several times. However, it is only to Mary, that the greeting of "Hail, full of Grace! The Lord is with Thee. Blessed are thou among women" is bestowed.
>>>If this was the first time a mere human was ever addressed by God this way (not even Abraham, Moses or Elijah was addressed this way by the angels of God), wouldn't any one, whether sinless or not, be stunned or troubled? I would say, maybe only those who were very arrogant wouldn't be troubled. Humility should not be mistaken for sinfulness. Jesus was humble yet, even to accepting his cross. I am sure it is agreed that he was sinless. So while this does not prove the Immaculate Conception (which requires a much deeper reading and appreciation of bible and sacred tradition), it certainly does not disprove it, no?
>>> As mentioned above, none of the heroes of the Old testament was ever greeted as being full of Grace and blessed among all women. I would suggest that that certainly does not make Mary "Normal". If she was just happened to be the lucky girl who picked up the lucky ticket, why was Joseph and Elizabeth not greeted in the same was by the angel?
Regarding the Miracle at Cana - somehow I don't agree that Jesus was under any obligation to perform His first public miracle. There were many other instances in the Gospels where His disciples had asked him to do something but He disagreed and did not do so. eg: Matt 14:15 "send them away to the villages to eat"; Luke 9:49-50 - "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."; Luke 9:54-56 "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." I don't think the scale of the miracle matters - it was still a Divine intervention and sign.
>>>>How about Stephen then. Are we to venerate him?
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. In other versions "full of grace and power" are being used by the way


>>>>>Yup. He is known as St Stephen. We celebrate His feast day 27th December. Considered as the first martyr.


The point of the matter is, by carrying Jesus, Mary has done the most incredible thing ever as a human. So as stated, you are just trying to exaggerate something more then it should be.
Jesus was addressed in a similar way many times. Even though he was God, he was man as well. Did he get shocked? If say I knew of my piano skills. I know for sure that my piano skills are better then others. No one praised me of my piano skills for some person. A person come along praising my piano skills. Would I be shocked? No. Because I know that my piano skills are of a certain standard. But I could be humble and not get too occupied by the praises. If Mary was sinless, she would have an inkling of the state that she is in and it would not have shocked her.


>>>>>Mary was deeply troubled. Does that prove she was not sinless?
Jesus was troubled now and again - does that mean He was anything less than God? Does that mean He doubted His Father in Heaven? Wouldn't He have known that troubles were coming his way?



First of all, those heroes are mostly man. Secondly, I would admit that Mary did the most incredible thing ever. Dun mean to be rude. How can you compare Jesus with John the Baptist. Also you do realize that it was not Mary virtue alone that determines whether she carried Jesus. Jesus has to come from a genealogy which ends with Joseph and mary and started of with David. So it was not really her virtousness that is the determining factor but also her lineage and that of Joseph. So it's not really a lottery ticket as per say but the timing and also her heritage as well. Her virtuousness probably play a role but then I would argue that if say there's another woman who was just as virtous or even more virtous then Mary, she would not also get to carry Jesus because of her lineage. No matter how you slice it, you really cannot use that passage as an example of Mary ability to intercede for us. In fact, it's pretty clear that Jesus even told Mary politely that her request was not going to give him any glory and he fulfilled the request in a way that gave him the glory. To use this passage to justify your claims makes you and by proxy the catholic church looks very uncredible. Tell any non christians out there that Mary should be interceeding for us based on that passage and they will probably mock you even more. I admit that immaculation conception is catholic tradition and the catholic church will do anything to defend this even though it's clearly wrong.



>>>>>As mentioned above, Mary is venerated by virtue of God. No more, no less. All the praises given to her are meant to glorify God. All the dogmas attached to her are to demonstrate the power, glory and love of God, who raised a lowly vessel to work such marvels for her.
Mary's only doing in this whole picture of Salvation is her whole hearted, unconditional and eternal "yes" to the will of God.
>>>>>Thanks for being so concerned about us. Don't worry. We are being mocked all the time. God never promised us an easy ride, even though He did promise that the Gates of Hell would never hold out against His church. And if what you say is true, then we deserve that mocking.



>> Those examples you gave are not very great. The thing is, are they asking in accordance to God's will. I am not trying to imply that every prayer will be answered. But God do listen to all of our prayers.

>>> Agreed. Those were not good examples but it was to point out that we should not underestimate the significance of Jesus responding to Mary even though He felt that His time had not come yet.


7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

God do listen to our prayers and will answer them if it is in accordance to his will. As for Mary, it's clear that when Jesus performed the miracle, He was glorified in the end as well.
"Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee and it revealed his glory and his disciples believed in him". Similarly, I could also say that Jesus was not obligated to bless the Canaanite woman as well. So are we to now venerate the Canaanite woman?

>>>Regarding Canaanite woman, yes, we should praise her for Jesus praised her. She might not have a name or position but her faith is a model for us all.

>>>>She did not become as venerated as Mary did she? And what do you mean by praised. Keep in mind that she is still a sinner like the rest of us. Now, I dun think praising someone is an issue but venerating someone is going too overboard dun you think? After all, she is still a sinner.


>>>>>Veneration are for those heroes of faith, those who suffered for the sake of Christ, those who did God's will despite having a sword pierce their hearts, those who kept through till the end. Yes, we praise them. We imitate them. We venerate them. We ask them to pray for us.


We certainly will be able to debate the length and breath of the bible and Catholic beliefs in these pages. And as you can see, often, there is more than one side of the coin. However hopefully this discussion has shown you that Catholic practices definitely have biblical roots (and, sorry to repeat again, roots in Sacred Tradition) and that we are definitely not some "whore of Babylon" or "the anti-Christ" as some might gleefully claim.
>>That's still a subject for debate.

Lastly, I can't promise to reply to all further inquiries after this as it is time consuming. Unless it is a very short and precise concern and can be answered quickly.

QUOTE(DRBS @ Apr 21 2016, 02:00 AM)
You are right, Sylar111. All of God's servants humble themselves, including Mary "He looks upon his handmaid in her nothingness......". The Catholic view is that acknowledging, being inspired by and venerating those whom God has honored takes nothing away from God Himself. Much like a wise Professor who does not sulk when his students receive accolades for their own achievements, knowing that whatever recognition they receive, enhances his standing even more.
In term of volume of references to Mary in the bible, i would readily admit that she pales in comparison to Paul and in fact many other biblical characters like Abraham, Moses, King David or even the apostles. You may be surprised however to find that Catholics see references to Mary right from the book of Genesis to Revelation and those references to her, speak of her unique role in the history of Salvation and how God chose and worked through this lowly human maiden to bring his great plan of Salvation to fruition.

>>The problem is, based on the scripture which I provided, even Paul advises that we should not be giving accolades towards him. In the new testament, only the 4 Gospels speaks of Mary. And it's very scant. There's hardly any accolades being given to her after that. In the old testament, the only verse that talks about Mary is Genesis 3:15. The other verses probably come from the apocrypha which are not recognize by the Jews by the way. I know that the Catholic Church has a low view of Jews but dun forget this
Romans 3
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

>>> I believe the scripture passage that you referred to was actually Paul correcting the people about jealousy and in-fighting among the themselves and how they should not be taking the camps of the leaders to elevate their status. The verse before this passage would confirm that.
I strongly agree with you that Paul exhorts us to humble ourselves before God. However, I am sure Paul does not means we should not give praise others, but only God. God has created many heroes who have gone before us and I believe it is only fitting that we give them praise and that this takes nothing away from God. That's what Catholics do with Mary and the Saints - we praise them. we imitate their faith and we ask them to pray for us.
>>>Catholics see Mary being referred to in the book of Isaiah, the most important book of the Scriptures to Jews. Also in the Psalms and The Book of Revelation. However I agree with you, this proves nothing.

>>>>At the same time, Paul is also highlighting that all of the glory should go to God. Of course we should admire Paul but I do not think Paul wants to receive the praise officially which you guys are doing.
>>>>>Not sure what is meant by praising officially. Do you mean praising in writing? In prayer? When complimenting someone other than God? By calling them saints?
>>>>>>I am pretty sure you know what I mean. It's not good to just "pretend" to not know what I mean. If you got nothing to hide, you dun have to do this. Anyway when you venerate say Paul, it's not just mentioning him in passing or having a strong opinion about him or a study about him. You have special ceremonies, special holidays and maybe even special prayers for him. I think you know what I mean but then it seems that you are evading like the other person has been doing.

>>>>>>>Haha! Looks like we are heading nowhere with this. Much as the Catholic Church consistently insists that we do not worship Saints, we are constantly being told that we are. I am sure I will not be able to convince those who have decided otherwise that we differentiate veneration from worship. Looks like God will have to judge us, don't you think? Impasse!
Just for knowledge purposes, we do celebrate Feast Days for those who are in full communion with God, Saints. St Paul's feast day is celebrated with St Peter.
Nope we don't have prayers for Paul. He is already in heaven in full communion with God. He prays for us.


And unfortunately as you know, Catholics are not bound purely by Biblical references but also by centuries of inflection and study of theology (right from the earliest days of the church) to fully understand Christ role in our Salvation and the role played by Mary in it.
I do not expect a non catholic to call Mary "Queen of Heaven". This only comes after a fuller understanding and appreciation of how Catholics see Mary. In fact, we don't just call her Queen of Heaven. She is much more often and affectionately termed as "Mother of God", which I am sure you would agree, supersedes her title of Queen of Heaven.
>>Maybe you do not realize the implication of calling Mary the Mother of God. It puts Mary on par or even above Jesus. Of course right now, you deny that you are worshiping Mary but then it's not surprising that many others are worshiping her because by putting Mary on par with Jesus and therefore God, there should be no problem worshiping her. Calling Mary the Mother of God also means that Mary should be compared with God the Father. You are probably going to deny this again but then think about it. That's the implication. Maybe openly, the catholic church denies Mary worship, but then in actual fact, attributing Mother of God to Mary actually elevates her position to God. Words do mean something especially when it comes to religion.

>>>If Jesus is truly God and Mary is his mother, then she is the Mother of God, no? God chose for it to be like that. God our Father chose for Jesus to have a human mother, the Mother of God.

>>>>Well, so now you admit that the Catholic Church actually worships Mary. Notice that Jesus never referred to Mary as Mother. Should have given you a clue. In other words, position wise, Mary should not really be considered Jesus Mother even though physically she is. So all this while, what you said about just venerating Mary is not true. You are actually worshiping Mary. As I have demonstrated earlier. The Catholic church has not been upfront in it's declaration. It talks about salvation through God's grace alone. But in actual fact. Individual works are still required. And now, it makes the claim that it only venerates Mary, but now you admit that Mary is at the position of God. So therefore in Catholic theology, there is nothing wrong in worshiping Mary. If there's nothing to hide, why do this?
>>>>>Sorry to keep harping on about this point, Sylar111. I am not sure what you mean by "Mary should not really be considered Jesus Mother even though physically she is". Is she Jesus's Mother?
>>>>>Not sure how it is concluded that calling Mary the Mother of God means we worship her, or that she is in the position of God. Do you mean to say that Mother of God is the same as God? I doubt any of us will say our mothers are the same as us.
>>>>>Is it OK to call Mary "the mother of our Lord"? Is it OK to call Mary "the mother of Jesus"? Is Jesus truly God? If so, I am not sure how we can be wrong to say Mary "is the mother of God".
>>>>>Sorry, but for the sake of clarity, I will not go into the theology of Salvation here as it is another lengthy topic and that has also been discussed at length previously.
>>>>>Not sure what the Church is being accused of hiding. As mentioned earlier, the Catholic church consistently and persistently condemns any person that claims Mary is God. Those that followed the heresy of Collyridians were ex-communicated.
>>>>>As mentioned earlier, if you come across any Catholics who worship Mary, by all means correct them.
>>>>>>Well.. Not really. A surrogate mother of a child is not really the real mother of a child. I think it's pretty clear that the holy spirit was directly involved in the virgin birth of Mary. It means that the DNA does not really come from Mary. Of course, as I mentioned physically wise, Mary could be considered a mother because physically she brought Jesus to the world physically. But then being a mother also means Mary should precede Jesus. Jesus has existed since the beginning of time. Let's say your uncle happens to be younger then you or about the same age as you. You will not treat him with the same kind of respect that that you would have to an uncle older then you right?most people would have understood where I am coming from but then if you are insistent that calling mary the Mother of God does not elevate her to a position comparable to God, then I guess very little things will get into your head. I know you are not that naive but the catholic church seems to have casted a spell on you.


>>>>>>>Major, major disagreement. Mary is a surrogate mother of Jesus? That would suggest that Jesus is not human, for He did not take flesh from His mother. Surely not biblical. Strongly disagree.
If Mary was just a surrogate mother, Genesis 3 would not be accurate.
>>>>>>>I am sure everyone agrees that God is not bound with time. Jesus being there since the beginning is in no way contrary to the belief that He became man in our time, taking on human flesh.
>>>>>>>So is it offensive to call Mary "the mother of our Lord"? Is it offensive to call Mary "the mother of Jesus"? Is Jesus truly God?
>>>>>>>Sorry but maybe we Catholics are just so thick skinned that we are so confident that God our Father, who close for Jesus to be born of a woman, would in no way be offended that we call Mary, as the mother of God, to recognize that her son was truly God.


As has been discussed at length before, Catholics do not view sacred tradition as conflicting with sacred scripture. In fact it is seen as being very complementary. It has to be since it was the church that compiled the bible. Catholics would go as far to say as reading the Bible as one would read an ordinary book without learning more about the history, context, language and culture in which it originated from can give rise to many false teachings and beliefs. This can surely be seen in that there are so many different interpretations even of singular verses of the Bible.
>>There are actually quite a few traditions that you practiced that contradict the scripture. But let's just discuss the examples above.

>>>Sure.

An example would be the verses from Luke 8:19-21 which you alluded to. One way some people have looked at it has been that Jesus is rebuking / belittling his mother and brethren in front of a crowd. This might of course seem out of keeping with Jesus. Another view is that Jesus was trying to teach us that even though we might not be his blood relative, we do not have to dismay for he considers all who do the will of His Father as His own. A third interpretation of these verses (which might not come across at first glance) actually sees Jesus as praising Mary. For who is it who has done the will of God to perfection? Luke 1:38 - Mary "May it be done to me according to Thy will". So Jesus is telling the crowd that Mary is not just my mother by virtue of being my biological mother but also spiritually because "She does the will of my Father".
>> I would not say that Jesus is belittling his mother. He is just stating facts thats all. I would say it's a combination of 1 and 2. He was not being disrespectful. He is just recognizing his actual position as compared to Mary that's all. Physically, she brought Jesus to the world. Spiritually, Mary was just another virtuous woman that's all. Mary still has to submit to Jesus even though she bore him. The same cannot be the same for our mothers right?

>>>You are right. Mary is a mere human being, nothing compared to God. But she was raised to be above all women, not just another virtuous woman. Mary submits to Jesus but as Her will and the will of the Father are so in sync with each other, there is no contradiction.

There is also another verse from Luke that at first glance might appear that Jesus is belittling Mary. Luke 11:27-28: While He was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” Again it can be viewed in different ways. Negative or positive.
>>It's pretty clear what this means. The focus should not be on Mary.

>>>Sorry. Actually I wanted this verse to be contrasted with the greeting from Elizabeth below. Similar, is it not? Yet, again Mary is called the Blessed among all women.
>>>Do you think Elizabeth's greeting to Mary is over the top? An exaggerated sycophantic cry of an over-excited cousin?

>>>>Question. Did Eliezabeth only greeted Mary this way after Mary was pregnant or before? Mary wasn't always so "blessed" until she gave birth to Jesus. I think we ourselves should not get too excited over this. When say one of our kids got accepted to a prestigious university, I am pretty sure that praises like "Kid is very smart". "Kid has a great future". "God really blessed you. Kid is very blessed to have a dad to support you. Etc. Of course after graduation, those kids could be considered more bless then those who did not receive a proper university education. This kid is mostly blessed afterwards as well. Just giving an example here. Giving birth to Jesus is obviously an incident of the magnitude of the highest order. She will be remembered for this incident forever. Its just the same as say Albert Einstein being remembered for a very long time for his theory of relativity. Albert Einstein could also be considered one of the greatest scientist for his theory of relativity. But let's not get carried away with this. She carried Jesus. Jesus has already existed since the beginning of time. Jesus did not owe his existence to Mary. She should be blessed because she brought Jesus to the world that's all. Notice that you even used " Her will and the will of the Father". In other words, even though you are denying this, you are putting Mary to the position of God subconsciously. No wonder so many catholics are worshiping her. By saying that it's wrong to worship Mary, you are actually acting hypocritically since Jesus never denied worship due to his position as being Equal to God.
>>>>>You are absolutely right. Mary is only blessed among all women because of her having the privilege of bearing, nursing and raising Jesus up. Without Him, she is nothing and might not even make it into the bible. But because of this great privilege, she is blessed among all women and occupy a very special place in the legion of saints. Mary's contribution to this is that she acceded to the Will of God so whole heartedly. God or Jesus does not owe her anything. She is but their lowly creature. However the plan of God required the free will of a Holy Receptacle. And God found that in Mary. That is why we copy her and call her our mother.
So you agree that she is to be called Blessed then? More than all other women? Full of Grace?
>>>>>Whether Mary was blessed by God before or after conceiving Jesus is another point. I am sure you noticed that she was called by Full of Grace and Blessed among all women before she even conceived.
>>>>> biggrin.gif Let's not read too much into typos, ya? I am sure you we would like to keep this as civil as possible and not resort to accusations of idolatry and hypocrisy. If i am hypocritical in my heart or misled on this point, I sincerely seek God's forgiveness. If I am not though, it might be regarded as bringing false witness against another.
>>>>>>And I have already indicated Stephen who was called in a similar way. Trust me. I am already controlling myself because I notice that you are starting to display the same kind of spirit as Yeeck whereby you are just conveniently ignoring things that I have said and pretending to not know where I am coming from. I am not reading much into typo but from what you type I already know that you put the position of mary as the same as God. in Christian circles we only reserve capitalized characters for someone in the position of God. I know you are trying to refrain yourself from doing so. I have already explained why. Unfortunately jesus who was the actual "son" of mary did not refer her to his mother. So whose example should we follow? Also, if mary was sinless, Elizabeth would have no problems calling mary blessed one even before she had jesus. You seem to miss the point.

>>>>>>>Stephen was described by Luke as being full of grace. Mary was called by the Angel of the Lord, Gabriel "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women". "Full of Grace" was her title. And just for the record (if it really matters) , she was not pregnant then.
>>>>>>>After your recent entry, I will refrain from talking about when to use capital letters. Hope it is mutual.


You might also want to compare these verses with Luke 1:41-45 - When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. How does this happen to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Similar exhortations by different women, but notice who is called the Blessed.
>>Look at the following verses
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Note the statement " Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God" and also "And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be." It's pretty clear that the concept of immaculate conception cannot be true because if that was true, Mary would not have been troubled as she would have known her sinless state. Also the statement, you have found favour with God shows clearly that she was just a normal person before the Angel visited her.

>>> It should be noted that throughout the bible, the Angel of God appears several times. However, it is only to Mary, that the greeting of "Hail, full of Grace! The Lord is with Thee. Blessed are thou among women" is bestowed.
>>>If this was the first time a mere human was ever addressed by God this way (not even Abraham, Moses or Elijah was addressed this way by the angels of God), wouldn't any one, whether sinless or not, be stunned or troubled? I would say, maybe only those who were very arrogant wouldn't be troubled. Humility should not be mistaken for sinfulness. Jesus was humble yet, even to accepting his cross. I am sure it is agreed that he was sinless. So while this does not prove the Immaculate Conception (which requires a much deeper reading and appreciation of bible and sacred tradition), it certainly does not disprove it, no?
>>> As mentioned above, none of the heroes of the Old testament was ever greeted as being full of Grace and blessed among all women. I would suggest that that certainly does not make Mary "Normal". If she was just happened to be the lucky girl who picked up the lucky ticket, why was Joseph and Elizabeth not greeted in the same was by the angel?
Regarding the Miracle at Cana - somehow I don't agree that Jesus was under any obligation to perform His first public miracle. There were many other instances in the Gospels where His disciples had asked him to do something but He disagreed and did not do so. eg: Matt 14:15 "send them away to the villages to eat"; Luke 9:49-50 - "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."; Luke 9:54-56 "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." I don't think the scale of the miracle matters - it was still a Divine intervention and sign.
>>>>How about Stephen then. Are we to venerate him?
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. In other versions "full of grace and power" are being used by the way
>>>>>Yup. He is known as St Stephen. We celebrate His feast day 27th December. Considered as the first martyr.
>>>>>>At least this is consistent. But then Stephen isn't regarded as highly as Mary I guess.

>>>>>>>Nope. None of the saints are.


The point of the matter is, by carrying Jesus, Mary has done the most incredible thing ever as a human. So as stated, you are just trying to exaggerate something more then it should be.
Jesus was addressed in a similar way many times. Even though he was God, he was man as well. Did he get shocked? If say I knew of my piano skills. I know for sure that my piano skills are better then others. No one praised me of my piano skills for some person. A person come along praising my piano skills. Would I be shocked? No. Because I know that my piano skills are of a certain standard. But I could be humble and not get too occupied by the praises. If Mary was sinless, she would have an inkling of the state that she is in and it would not have shocked her.
>>>>>Mary was deeply troubled. Does that prove she was not sinless?
Jesus was troubled now and again - does that mean He was anything less than God? Does that mean He doubted His Father in Heaven? Wouldn't He have known that troubles were coming his way?
>>>>>>Did I ever implied that Mary sinned because she was troubled? You are falsely accusing me like the other guy. I think you should think more before you reply because if you reread what I wrote, I never said that Mary sinned because she was deeply troubled. You are just repeating the standard answer your church gives you that's all. And that''s why you are answering my concerns wrongly.

>>>>>>>My apologies. From your comment "If Mary was sinless, she would have an inkling of the state that she is in and it would not have shocked her.", I assumed you were.
I guess also better for us not to assume as to why Mary was shocked/troubled. Too many interpretations with no proof.


First of all, those heroes are mostly man. Secondly, I would admit that Mary did the most incredible thing ever. Dun mean to be rude. How can you compare Jesus with John the Baptist. Also you do realize that it was not Mary virtue alone that determines whether she carried Jesus. Jesus has to come from a genealogy which ends with Joseph and mary and started of with David. So it was not really her virtousness that is the determining factor but also her lineage and that of Joseph. So it's not really a lottery ticket as per say but the timing and also her heritage as well. Her virtuousness probably play a role but then I would argue that if say there's another woman who was just as virtous or even more virtous then Mary, she would not also get to carry Jesus because of her lineage. No matter how you slice it, you really cannot use that passage as an example of Mary ability to intercede for us. In fact, it's pretty clear that Jesus even told Mary politely that her request was not going to give him any glory and he fulfilled the request in a way that gave him the glory. To use this passage to justify your claims makes you and by proxy the catholic church looks very uncredible. Tell any non christians out there that Mary should be interceeding for us based on that passage and they will probably mock you even more. I admit that immaculation conception is catholic tradition and the catholic church will do anything to defend this even though it's clearly wrong.
>>>>>As mentioned above, Mary is venerated by virtue of God. No more, no less. All the praises given to her are meant to glorify God. All the dogmas attached to her are to demonstrate the power, glory and love of God, who raised a lowly vessel to work such marvels for her.
Mary's only doing in this whole picture of Salvation is her whole hearted, unconditional and eternal "yes" to the will of God.
>>>>>Thanks for being so concerned about us. Don't worry. We are being mocked all the time. God never promised us an easy ride, even though He did promise that the Gates of Hell would never hold out against His church. And if what you say is true, then we deserve that mocking.
>>>>>>You still do not get the point. What I was trying to say is that this passage is a very weak case to use to support the case of Mary interceeding for us. Just like in Science, when you want to assert something, you better make sure you have a stronger case before you do so. Otherwise, you lose all credibility. Being mocked because of preaching the truth is different from being mocked because of lack of credibility. I am pretty sure you know that.
>> Those examples you gave are not very great. The thing is, are they asking in accordance to God's will. I am not trying to imply that every prayer will be answered. But God do listen to all of our prayers.

>>> Agreed. Those were not good examples but it was to point out that we should not underestimate the significance of Jesus responding to Mary even though He felt that His time had not come yet.
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

God do listen to our prayers and will answer them if it is in accordance to his will. As for Mary, it's clear that when Jesus performed the miracle, He was glorified in the end as well.
"Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee and it revealed his glory and his disciples believed in him". Similarly, I could also say that Jesus was not obligated to bless the Canaanite woman as well. So are we to now venerate the Canaanite woman?

>>>Regarding Canaanite woman, yes, we should praise her for Jesus praised her. She might not have a name or position but her faith is a model for us all.

>>>>She did not become as venerated as Mary did she? And what do you mean by praised. Keep in mind that she is still a sinner like the rest of us. Now, I dun think praising someone is an issue but venerating someone is going too overboard dun you think? After all, she is still a sinner.
>>>>>Veneration are for those heroes of faith, those who suffered for the sake of Christ, those who did God's will despite having a sword pierce their hearts, those who kept through till the end. Yes, we praise them. We imitate them. We venerate them. We ask them to pray for us.
>>>>>>The fact is that they are still sinners. But then by doing that, you are elevating them to something more then they are. I really do not know how you are not able to see that.

>>>>>>>Again, something we will never agree on. Going nowhere, yeah?

By the way, since you are very interested in what Catholics belief in, I must ask you, have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Faith? Have you ever been to a Mass, the Eucharistic celebration?
I hope so because every now and again, Catholics come across people who mean well but who have a very confused idea about what the Catholic church teaches and what Catholics do. I would be the first to admit, there are even Catholics who are confused. Unfortunately sometimes people start questioning Catholics based on what they hear, on what they read on the internet forums or worst still, from avowed anti-Catholic literature (eg Chick's tracts and the like) or even ex-catholics who have a bone to pick.
Want to know the truth about the Catholic faith? Read the Catechism and come for a Holy Eucharist celebration and find out the meaning of the mass.
Otherwise if just concerned, pray for Catholics. And we will pray for you.



We certainly will be able to debate the length and breath of the bible and Catholic beliefs in these pages. And as you can see, often, there is more than one side of the coin. However hopefully this discussion has shown you that Catholic practices definitely have biblical roots (and, sorry to repeat again, roots in Sacred Tradition) and that we are definitely not some "whore of Babylon" or "the anti-Christ" as some might gleefully claim.
>>That's still a subject for debate.

Lastly, I can't promise to reply to all further inquiries after this as it is time consuming. Unless it is a very short and precise concern and can be answered quickly.

[COLOR=red]By the way, since you are very interested in what Catholics belief in, I must ask you, have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Faith? Have you ever been to a Mass, the Eucharistic celebration, which is the pinnacle of Catholic prayer and worship?
I hope so because every now and again, Catholics come across people who mean well but who have a very confused idea about what the Catholic church teaches and what Catholics do. I would be the first to admit, there are even Catholics who are confused. Unfortunately sometimes people start questioning Catholics based on what they hear, on what they read on the internet forums or worst still, from avowed anti-Catholic literature (eg Chick's tracts and the like) or even ex-catholics who have a bone to pick.
Want to know the truth about the Catholic faith? Read the Catechism and come for a Holy Eucharist celebration and find out the meaning of the mass.
Otherwise if just concerned, pray for Catholics. And we will pray for you.