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Critical_Fallacy
post Sep 14 2014, 11:45 PM

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QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Sep 14 2014, 09:37 AM)
Please help the 4 of us. I know that if I want to achieve a satisfying mark in Speaking component, I will have to find ways to aid them and bring them up. It's not a one man job. Thanks for both of your attention and thoughtful advices.
One word that will change your life — CONTROL. In other words, you must play the role as the chair, which includes coordinating the discussion; ensuring that the meeting is not dominated by a single individual; moving from one issue to the next; ensuring that the necessary decisions are made; not allow the meeting to exceed the time allotted; and seeing that the minutes are kept.

Therefore, it doesn't matter if your friend wants to defend his point. In fact, he doesn't need to defend if three of you don't argue with him in the first place. Keep in mind that Task B is not a debate, just a discussion. The activities in Task B of the Speaking component are very similar to holding a meeting, perhaps less formal. A typical meeting structure is as follows:

• the chair opens the meeting
• the minutes (may refer to Task A) are read
• the agenda is introduced
• first subject introduced
• the chair gives the floor to a participant (clockwise)
• another speaker takes the floor
• the chair keeps order
• the chair moves the discussion to a new point
• the chair directs the discussion
• participants propose new motions
• the chair moves to a vote
• voting occurs
• consensus reached
• any other business dealt with
• meeting closed

The language of formal meetings, particularly the language used by the chair, can be rather stylized. The degree of formality Task B requires depends what matters are being discussed. The language suggestions set out below: icon_idea.gif

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Just Visiting By
post Sep 15 2014, 12:02 AM

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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Sep 14 2014, 11:45 PM)
One word that will change your life — CONTROL. In other words, you must play the role as the chair, which includes coordinating the discussion; ensuring that the meeting is not dominated by a single individual; moving from one issue to the next; ensuring that the necessary decisions are made; not allow the meeting to exceed the time allotted; and seeing that the minutes are kept.

Therefore, it doesn't matter if your friend wants to defend his point. In fact, he doesn't need to defend if three of you don't argue with him in the first place. Keep in mind that Task B is not a debate, just a discussion. The activities in Task B of the Speaking component are very similar to holding a meeting, perhaps less formal. A typical meeting structure is as follows:

• the chair opens the meeting
• the minutes (may refer to Task A) are read
• the agenda is introduced
• first subject introduced
• the chair gives the floor to a participant (clockwise)
• another speaker takes the floor
• the chair keeps order
• the chair moves the discussion to a new point
• the chair directs the discussion
• participants propose new motions
• the chair moves to a vote
• voting occurs
• consensus reached
• any other business dealt with
• meeting closed

The language of formal meetings, particularly the language used by the chair, can be rather stylized. The degree of formality Task B requires depends what matters are being discussed. The language suggestions set out below: icon_idea.gif

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

*
Such formality is not required. Treat task B as a casual conversation at a coffee shop. Seriously.

And please DO NOT dominate the discussion. Do not attempt to control the situation. Just try to co-operate and allow natural flow. Don't be a coordinator and tells who should speak next. It's not really nice.

All you need is a smooth co-operation and everything will go well. Mine went very well last time.

Do bear in mind for private candidates, they do not even get to know who their partners are until they sit for the test, and they (mostly) are able to engage in a discussion rather smoothly.




RED-HAIR-SHANKS
post Sep 15 2014, 12:10 AM

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QUOTE(Just Visiting By @ Sep 14 2014, 07:51 PM)
For task B, there need not be an agreement. Each member could defend their own points if they wish, and if an agreement could not be reached, just conclude by saying "based on our discussion, we think the best way to (let's say) curb vandalism is to educate people and enforce stricter laws bla bla bla". An agreement is not demanded.

If you're unsure about how to proceed with your point, don't panic, and act normal. Exuding confidence is extremely important as it is an impression. Try to speak as natural as possible.

During practice, try to limit everyone's chance to approximately 2 minutes.

It's just a speaking test, don't freak out over it. =)
*
Alright, I got that. nod.gif

But about the time-limit during our practice, we often speak rather hastily and sometimes I even noticed that we have already reached to the conclusion of our discussion even before we reach the 8-minutes mark. sweat.gif Anyway, specifically for Task B, did your other 3 friends and you make your own preferences during the 2-minutes preparations before the Task B commenced? I know that we don't necessarily need to conclude on only one point, but my teacher told me that it would be much better if we do so.
RED-HAIR-SHANKS
post Sep 15 2014, 12:19 AM

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QUOTE(Just Visiting By @ Sep 15 2014, 12:02 AM)
Such formality is not required. Treat task B as a casual conversation at a coffee shop. Seriously.

And please DO NOT dominate the discussion. Do not attempt to control the situation. Just try to co-operate and allow natural flow. Don't be a coordinator and tells who should speak next. It's not really nice.

All you need is a smooth co-operation and everything will go well. Mine went very well last time.

Do bear in mind for private candidates, they do not even get to know who their partners are until they sit for the test, and they (mostly) are able to engage in a discussion rather smoothly.
*
For a second there, I though our practices in Task B is quite alright, until I read this post of yours. If you were try to juxtapose our discussions with yours, I dare say that ours are more like an act that has been planned. unsure.gif We are like robots, and quite often that we will keep on rehashing the same old quote to initiate any talks like: ''Candidate B, what do you think about..., Candidate C, do you concur..., How about you Candidate A, do you feel that...''. sweat.gif I feel that if we want to greatly reduce the stress and pressure in our discussion, we ought to change the way we speak and the flow of talks from the start all the way to the conclusion.


RED-HAIR-SHANKS
post Sep 15 2014, 12:32 AM

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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Sep 14 2014, 11:45 PM)
One word that will change your life — CONTROL. In other words, you must play the role as the chair, which includes coordinating the discussion; ensuring that the meeting is not dominated by a single individual; moving from one issue to the next; ensuring that the necessary decisions are made; not allow the meeting to exceed the time allotted; and seeing that the minutes are kept.

Therefore, it doesn't matter if your friend wants to defend his point. In fact, he doesn't need to defend if three of you don't argue with him in the first place. Keep in mind that Task B is not a debate, just a discussion. The activities in Task B of the Speaking component are very similar to holding a meeting, perhaps less formal. A typical meeting structure is as follows:

• the chair opens the meeting
• the minutes (may refer to Task A) are read
• the agenda is introduced
• first subject introduced
• the chair gives the floor to a participant (clockwise)
• another speaker takes the floor
• the chair keeps order
• the chair moves the discussion to a new point
• the chair directs the discussion
• participants propose new motions
• the chair moves to a vote
• voting occurs
• consensus reached
• any other business dealt with
• meeting closed

The language of formal meetings, particularly the language used by the chair, can be rather stylized. The degree of formality Task B requires depends what matters are being discussed. The language suggestions set out below: icon_idea.gif

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

*
A huge thanks to you, Dr. Fallacy. notworthy.gif But, how do I want to control the discussion in our group and keep the flow of the content in check? unsure.gif

And for example, suppose that candidate A supports his view in a specific point, say, ''Money is indispensable when it comes to...''. If any other 3 candidates try to ask his opinions on why did he choose ''money'' as his point, how should he try to further elaborate his view on the importance of money without keep on rehashing and repeating the exact same point from his brief talk just a while ago? unsure.gif

This post has been edited by RED-HAIR-SHANKS: Sep 15 2014, 12:33 AM
Critical_Fallacy
post Sep 15 2014, 02:37 AM

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QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Sep 15 2014, 12:32 AM)
But, how do I want to control the discussion in our group and keep the flow of the content in check?
By control, I mean you can learn some clandestine linguistics to increase your persuasive power for good in your MUET, professional and personal life, and NOT dominating the entire 8-minute discussion. The role of controlling the flow of the discussion is to be able to bring someone else to your way of thinking in a very short amount of time with as little resistance as possible to accomplish your goals. Just imagine yourself as the talk show host who displays the qualities that help assert charismatic leadership. Watch The Oprah Winfrey show. happy.gif

QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Sep 15 2014, 12:32 AM)
And for example, suppose that candidate A supports his view in a specific point, say, ''Money is indispensable when it comes to...''. If any other 3 candidates try to ask his opinions on why did he choose ''money'' as his point, how should he try to further elaborate his view on the importance of money without keep on rehashing and repeating the exact same point from his brief talk just a while ago?
First, stop asking why to your members. If the other 3 candidates load you with the same “why” questions, how would you respond? You may ask why not ask why; and the answer is because the answer to why is because. No pun intended! sweat.gif When you ask why, you are likely to get reasons rather than recovering any more specific information. The reasons (“Because I love money”) will be on surface level, just like the statement (“Money is indispensable”) that you are challenging. moneyflies.gif

Next, instruct persuade all your members to learn the Toulmin's Model of Argumentation (in 20 minutes). Click here. See some examples in Post #304. You will know exactly “what” to ask to extract specific information about your member's opinion, without forcing him to rehash and repeat the exact same point. icon_idea.gif

If he repeats the same thing, disengage him graciously by asking, “Is this true in everyone's world view?” and then follow up with “To be without some of the things you want is an indispensable part of happiness”. I borrow that quote from Bertrand Russell, the philosopher who came up with the infamous Russell's teapot analogy in discussions concerning the existence of God. (I am not an atheist.) innocent.gif

In The Uses of Argument, first published in 1958, Toulmin presented a model of the “procedural form” of argumentation. This model aims to capture the functional elements (or steps) that can be distinguished in the defense of a standpoint by means of argumentation. According to Toulmin, the procedural form of argumentation is “field-independent,” meaning that the steps that are taken – as they are represented in the model – are always the same, irrespective of the subject that is being discussed. icon_rolleyes.gif

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This post has been edited by Critical_Fallacy: Sep 15 2014, 05:38 AM
Just Visiting By
post Sep 15 2014, 09:25 AM

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QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Sep 15 2014, 12:10 AM)
Alright, I got that.  nod.gif

But about the time-limit during our practice, we often speak rather hastily and sometimes I even noticed that we have already reached to the conclusion of our discussion even before we reach the 8-minutes mark. sweat.gif Anyway, specifically for Task B, did your other 3 friends and you make your own preferences during the 2-minutes preparations before the Task B commenced? I know that we don't necessarily need to conclude on only one point, but my teacher told me that it would be much better if we do so.
*
Ya, we made our own preferences during the preparation.

We brought our own watch into the exam location so we could know how long we had spoken.

It doesn't matter if there's no agreement. It's not better to have one, and frankly it is better to not have one.

Reaching a conclusion regarding a subject in a mere 10 minutes discussion is laughable.

Don't worry, all of us didn't reach an agreement, and our MUET were still okay.


QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Sep 15 2014, 12:19 AM)
For a second there, I though our practices in Task B is quite alright, until I read this post of yours. If you were try to juxtapose our discussions with yours, I dare say that ours are more like an act that has been planned. unsure.gif  We are like robots, and quite often that we will keep on rehashing the same old quote to initiate any talks like: ''Candidate B, what do you think about..., Candidate C, do you concur..., How about you Candidate A, do you feel that...''. sweat.gif  I feel that if we want to greatly reduce the stress and pressure in our discussion, we ought to change the way we speak and the flow of talks from the start all the way to the conclusion.
*
Practice makes perfect. There's nothing I could offer than could help alleviate this, except to tell you to relax, and let comfort takes control.


RED-HAIR-SHANKS
post Sep 15 2014, 01:27 PM

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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Sep 15 2014, 02:37 AM)
By control, I mean you can learn some clandestine linguistics to increase your persuasive power for good in your MUET, professional and personal life, and NOT dominating the entire 8-minute discussion. The role of controlling the flow of the discussion is to be able to bring someone else to your way of thinking in a very short amount of time with as little resistance as possible to accomplish your goals. Just imagine yourself as the talk show host who displays the qualities that help assert charismatic leadership. Watch The Oprah Winfrey show. happy.gif
First, stop asking why to your members. If the other 3 candidates load you with the same “why” questions, how would you respond? You may ask why not ask why; and the answer is because the answer to why is because. No pun intended! sweat.gif When you ask why, you are likely to get reasons rather than recovering any more specific information. The reasons (“Because I love money”) will be on surface level, just like the statement (“Money is indispensable”) that you are challenging. moneyflies.gif

Next, instruct persuade all your members to learn the Toulmin's Model of Argumentation (in 20 minutes). Click here. See some examples in Post #304. You will know exactly “what” to ask to extract specific information about your member's opinion, without forcing him to rehash and repeat the exact same point. icon_idea.gif

If he repeats the same thing, disengage him graciously by asking, “Is this true in everyone's world view?” and then follow up with “To be without some of the things you want is an indispensable part of happiness”. I borrow that quote from Bertrand Russell, the philosopher who came up with the infamous Russell's teapot analogy in discussions concerning the existence of God. (I am not an atheist.) innocent.gif

In The Uses of Argument, first published in 1958, Toulmin presented a model of the “procedural form” of argumentation. This model aims to capture the functional elements (or steps) that can be distinguished in the defense of a standpoint by means of argumentation. According to Toulmin, the procedural form of argumentation is “field-independent,” meaning that the steps that are taken – as they are represented in the model – are always the same, irrespective of the subject that is being discussed. icon_rolleyes.gif

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*
Thank you for your help with these thorough explanations. I will try to approach them with your advice and see what we can make out of it.
RED-HAIR-SHANKS
post Sep 15 2014, 01:42 PM

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QUOTE(Just Visiting By @ Sep 15 2014, 09:25 AM)
Ya, we made our own preferences during the preparation.

We brought our own watch into the exam location so we could know how long we had spoken.

It doesn't matter if there's no agreement. It's not better to have one, and frankly it is better to not have one.

Reaching a conclusion regarding a subject in a mere 10 minutes discussion is laughable.

Don't worry, all of us didn't reach an agreement, and our MUET were still okay.
Practice makes perfect. There's nothing I could offer than could help alleviate this, except to tell you to relax, and let comfort takes control.
*
Alright, that's convincing enough for me to not think too much about coming up with a ''perfect conclusion'' at the end of the discussion. smile.gif Pardon me though, my friends and I have already been following our teacher's instruction of the ways to discuss in Task B for long enough to the point where we were blinded by the fact that there are other ways that're more flexible and less strenuous that we can utilise. It's not our MUET teacher's faults, she is helpful, but I reckon that we are depending too much on her that we being spoon-fed.
Critical_Fallacy
post Sep 15 2014, 02:44 PM

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QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Sep 15 2014, 01:42 PM)
Alright, that's convincing enough for me to not think too much about coming up with a “perfect conclusion” at the end of the discussion. smile.gif
The “conclusion” means to bring an end to the discussion. It needs not to be pointing who’s right and who’s wrong. If you are quick-witted, you can come up with a metaphor or a philosophical quote that appeal to a larger picture of the topic under discussion. Or else, find a common ground and close with a thought-provoking question, “Isn’t it more important that ...?icon_rolleyes.gif

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Critical_Fallacy
post Sep 15 2014, 05:03 PM

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QUOTE(Just Visiting By @ Sep 15 2014, 09:25 AM)
Practice makes perfect.
I agree that practice is important, and it’s absolutely necessary to achieve expertise. Naturally, it is easy to talk about in theory, but it’s more fun to talk about in practice. Since we are having a positive discussion to help RED-HAIR-SHANKS, what do you think is the best way to practice? happy.gif
TSscgoh123
post Sep 15 2014, 09:29 PM

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Critical_Fallacy RED-HAIR-SHANKS, I wonder how you all master english so well. You can even insert some high-standard words while I can't. I need help too for my Speaking and Writing component. As my teacher had assigned a group for me, all of us are from Mandarin-Speaking family, so English is not my (and other 3 members) dominant language. As for group discussion, I just finished my trial for Speaking component, my teacher said that I ended the discussion vaguely. Some of my friends have to retry for the speaking test due to unsatisfactory marks.

In my opinion, the most important thing in speaking is to be able to synchronize with other 3 members and the formality of the language used. Those Malaysian 'slangs' like la, lo should be avoided, which I think is quite difficult as we are using those slangs in our daily lives.
RED-HAIR-SHANKS
post Sep 15 2014, 09:57 PM

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QUOTE(scgoh123 @ Sep 15 2014, 09:29 PM)
Critical_Fallacy RED-HAIR-SHANKS, I wonder how you all master english so well. You can even insert some high-standard words while I can't. I need help too for my Speaking and Writing component. As my teacher had assigned a group for me, all of us are from Mandarin-Speaking family, so English is not my (and other 3 members) dominant language. As for group discussion, I just finished my trial for Speaking component, my teacher said that I ended the discussion vaguely. Some of my friends have to retry for the speaking test due to unsatisfactory marks.

In my opinion, the most important thing in speaking is to be able to synchronize with other 3 members and the formality of the language used. Those Malaysian 'slangs' like la, lo should be avoided, which I think is quite difficult as we are using those slangs in our daily lives.
*
You are not the only ones from a Mandarin-speaking family, most of my classmates including me are included in that cohort too biggrin.gif . And no, my English is considered a joke as I tend to insert some of the low frequency words out of place, and if I were to compare mine with some of my classmates, it's like comparing an ant with a boot. sweat.gif I'm still learning from fellow seniors here on how to ameliorate my proficiency in English, and I feel a little regret for registering the MUET exam in this November due to the time constraint and preparation towards my first term exam.

Yeah, I can't agree more with you on the usage of Malaysian's slang sweat.gif . Anyway, if you have some suggestions or strategy on how you are able to ace in any components in MUET exams, feel free to share them up in here. notworthy.gif
Critical_Fallacy
post Sep 15 2014, 10:45 PM

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QUOTE(scgoh123 @ Sep 15 2014, 09:29 PM)
In my opinion, the most important thing in speaking is to be able to synchronize with other 3 members and the formality of the language used.
QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Sep 15 2014, 09:57 PM)
Anyway, if you have some suggestions or strategy on how you are able to ace in any components in MUET exams, feel free to share them up in here.
Master a wide variety of language functions and use effective rhetorical strategies of repetition, including anaphora, antithesis, chiasmus, and parallelism. Just like 《獨孤九劍》, once the essence of the linguistics is grasped, the speaker can use it in endless forms and variations 《千變萬化》.

Here is a list of common language functions (elementary level):

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Please note this list is not exhaustive and you should expand it. Share with your friends! icon_rolleyes.gif
Just Visiting By
post Sep 16 2014, 12:03 AM

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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Sep 15 2014, 05:03 PM)
I agree that practice is important, and it’s absolutely necessary to achieve expertise. Naturally, it is easy to talk about in theory, but it’s more fun to talk about in practice. Since we are having a positive discussion to help RED-HAIR-SHANKS, what do you think is the best way to practice? happy.gif
*
I think all we could do is to give plenty of suggestions. The rest will depend on whether they are willing to put in efforts (to relax, for example). smile.gif

QUOTE(scgoh123 @ Sep 15 2014, 09:29 PM)
Critical_Fallacy RED-HAIR-SHANKS, I wonder how you all master english so well. You can even insert some high-standard words while I can't. I need help too for my Speaking and Writing component. As my teacher had assigned a group for me, all of us are from Mandarin-Speaking family, so English is not my (and other 3 members) dominant language. As for group discussion, I just finished my trial for Speaking component, my teacher said that I ended the discussion vaguely. Some of my friends have to retry for the speaking test due to unsatisfactory marks.

In my opinion, the most important thing in speaking is to be able to synchronize with other 3 members and the formality of the language used. Those Malaysian 'slangs' like la, lo should be avoided, which I think is quite difficult as we are using those slangs in our daily lives.
*
Hei, I'm also from a Mandarin-speaking family but, while I admit my English ain't very good, my English is sufficiently good enough for me to communicate with people, and I think that's all that matters.

When you are learning a language, depth does not matter. Skill does. Being able to write creatively and flawlessly is more impressive than being able to use a lot of bombastic words.

Which is why I prefer American novel much more than Singaporean's (etc TSGH). Just read American novels like Nicholas Spark's or Chris Carter's, they all could write absorbing novels without using many bombastic words because they could write and that's because they have skills! biggrin.gif

But yes, if you could insert high-standard words and write skillfully, it would be the best combination!

This post has been edited by Just Visiting By: Sep 16 2014, 12:05 AM
RED-HAIR-SHANKS
post Sep 16 2014, 12:36 AM

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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Sep 15 2014, 10:45 PM)
Master a wide variety of language functions and use effective rhetorical strategies of repetition, including anaphora, antithesis, chiasmus, and parallelism. Just like 《獨孤九劍》, once the essence of the linguistics is grasped, the speaker can use it in endless forms and variations 《千變萬化》.

Here is a list of common language functions (elementary level):

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Please note this list is not exhaustive and you should expand it. Share with your friends! icon_rolleyes.gif
*
Thank you so much ! thumbup.gif I bet this along the Toulmin's Model of Argumentation will be a powerful arsenal for my classmates and me once we've learned on mastering them. flex.gif
yuza014
post Sep 17 2014, 05:28 PM

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Someone have the sample of introduction or completed mathematics T coursework for sem 1?
TSscgoh123
post Sep 17 2014, 07:10 PM

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QUOTE(yuza014 @ Sep 17 2014, 06:28 PM)
Someone have the sample of introduction or completed mathematics T coursework for sem 1?
*
you still not yet finished ?

are you stuck in doing your coursework?
mind to share to us your problems? :)

yuza014
post Sep 17 2014, 07:56 PM

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Not yet.. Only introduction left.. My teacher rejected my intro a few time.. :(.. How to do it??
Critical_Fallacy
post Sep 17 2014, 09:17 PM

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QUOTE(yuza014 @ Sep 17 2014, 07:56 PM)
Not yet.. Only introduction left.. My teacher rejected my intro a few time.. sad.gif.. How to do it??
Show us your introduction for review. We'll see what you can do to increase the acceptance rate. icon_rolleyes.gif

DO it NOW...

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