Seriously I really think you need to reread what I post. I did not accuse you of anything.

Erm ... fellowship is the flow of the divine life. It is not to be agreeable. I meant, if you meet a vegetarian brother, we don't condemn him of his weak faith, but continue to fellowship with him. Unless it is sinful, divisive or worldly.

Then, don't go for psychiatry then.

Again, I did not say that that not following psychiatry is superstitious. Whoah, it is really hard when you are making statements like this. I don't even know what you meant by mainstream? Whether one make a decision to get some help from psychological consultation is between him and the Lord and finding OUT whether it entails ... Really, you are putting words that I do not say.

Who say about one NOT making an informed decision? <Sigh> Christianity is neither about NOT accepting mainstream as truth or question them ... bro, it is about God's purpose and the revelation of Himself. Once we see this, we will see the the world is against it.

Anyway, I am done responding on this.

Cheers!

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 22 2014, 08:51 PM

It is actually the fastest way to hell for unbelievers. Then again, it is extremely RARE for one who touch his spirit when he/she believe in the Lord to. A strong salvation usually has a good foundation even if ones backslides.

Hypothetically, if he is saved [really touch the Lord, receive Him into him AND NOT A INHERITED/FAMILY RELIGION and commit suicide], he is still saved but DEFINITELY not a mature Christian. He will be punished dispensationally in the millennium.


LOL, still have to response to your salvation question ... my bad, sis.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 22 2014, 09:05 PM

Is there? Are you referring to Galileo? If yes, the topic was not on that the world is flat.

Erm ... Our 24-hour day comes from the ancient Egyptians who divided day-time into 10 hours they measured with devices such as shadow clocks, and added a twilight hour at the beginning and another one at the end of the day-time. And believe me, they were really religious

I think there is no balancing needed as science is only a tool. It cuts both ways. I am familiar with quantum mechanics, general relativity, evolution and string theories [well as a layman], and it can only describe a physical universe as best as it can be [but still with its problems] but cannot infer / implied anything absolutely ... ironically that will be the philosophy of science. Yet what it describes of our physical universe, I find it really marvellous and at best confirming creation declared in shadow of the attributes of the Creator

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 23 2014, 11:31 AM

Erm ... are you responding to Sophierre or me? Oh well, ignore this if you are responding to her. I always that this problem with quotes.

My understanding is a little different as I do not believe in "going to heaven", and thus a myth . I believe we have a higher destiny than that based on the revelation in the Bible.

The response to her was premised on some earlier sharing I had with her. That, even though our salvation is secure, the reward of the kingdom is not (1 Cor. 3:15). If a believer is not matured in the divine life in this age, he will have to go through dispensation punishment in the millennial kingdom where the overcoming believers will enjoy the rewards as co-kings. The defeated believers will be "trained"/"discipled" so that they are will be matured after 1000 years.

But then, this is just a supporting line.

Whether I am of conventional Christianity or true christianity, or of a denomination or not etc, you can always make that statement. But please do substantiate your claims please in the spirit of fellowship. Just because my views on "going to heaven" are not of "mainstream" Christianity, it invalidates me as a believers? Did I not believe in the Triune God? Christ? The Spirit?

"I think if God is willing to forgive us, there will be no more sins in his eyes." Err.. duh!

Am I mocking God's promises? No. Rather I have uplifted it to the uttermost. I am just sharing that the deification of man [but not in the Godhead =- theosis(wiki it)] as the pinnacle of God's salvation as the goal. It is 100000000x better than going to heaven. I cannot even substantiate anything from the Bible on this matter of "going to heaven". Even the unbelievers are laughing at the "unrighteousness" of it.

Do you have anything to substantiate on your claims on going to heaven? Please do not bring up traditions.



This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 23 2014, 12:38 PM

Wow ... just wow

Yeah, in your understanding in the spirit of fellowship. I think we can leave the mudslinging statement like " Or you do not really follow the bible?"

ALL SPIRITUAL MATTERS RELATED TO A CHRISTIAN DEPENDING ON CHRIST

Ephesians 4:13 says, "Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Galatians 4:19b says, "Until Christ is formed in you." God shows us clearly in His Word that all spiritual matters related to a Christian depend on Christ. Whether it is our believing in the Lord, our baptism, or our breaking bread in remembrance of the Lord, everything in our Christian life depends on Christ. All spiritual matters depend on whether or not we have Christ. Any experience in which we do not experience Christ cannot be counted as a spiritual experience in God’s eyes.

GOD'S EYES BEING ON CHRIST

God does not require that His children have a change in behavior or a desire to do good. If God’s children change themselves from being indifferent to being zealous, from not reading the Bible to reading the Bible, from not praying to praying, from not attending meetings to attending meetings, God's heart still will not be satisfied. If we had the right understanding, we would know that our seeking God and our slothfulness in not seeking God are actually the same. From the spiritual perspective, reading the Bible and not reading the Bible are the same. This does not mean that it is not necessary for us to be zealous, to pursue the Lord, to pray, to read the Bible, or to meet. This is not what we mean. We should regularly read the Bible, pray, and meet. However, merely reading the Bible, praying, and meeting does not mean that we are spiritual, for these things cannot satisfy God. What counts and what can satisfy God’s heart is that Christ is in our reading of the Bible, in our praying, and in our attending meetings. Only Christ can satisfy God.

Hence, God’s heart is not satisfied if now we are reading the Bible when formerly we did not. God’s desire is not fulfilled if now we pray when formerly we did not. God’s purpose is not accomplished if now we attend meetings when formerly we did not. This is not the way God’s purpose is fulfilled. God’s purpose is not in our attending meetings, in our being zealous, in our reading the Bible, or in our praying. God’s purpose is in Christ. If we are zealous merely for the sake of being zealous, if we meet merely for the sake of meeting, if we read the Bible merely for the sake of reading the Bible, and if we pray merely for the sake of praying, then in God’s eyes all these things are nothing but religious activities, which can never satisfy Him.

All spiritual matters depend on Christ, not on spiritual activities. The reason why all these activities have some value is that they help us to touch Christ. The reason why reading the Bible and praying have some value is that they help us to touch Christ. The reason why seeking God zealously has some value is that it helps us to touch Christ. However, if we merely have a kind of seeking, zeal, Bible reading, prayer, or meeting—all without touching Christ—these things are merely activities and are merely a religion. What is a religion? When we have a certain kind of action and a certain kind of living in which we seek and worship God without touching Christ, that is called a religion. It is neither spiritual nor pleasing to God because in it we do not touch Christ Himself.

Wah, you all really only come out during near midnight ah? Oh good, you are familiar with some of the verses. And you are correct in that it is not a matter of eternal salvation. We can start with your second verse (1 Cor 3:12).

Although those believers whose Christian works are not approved by the Lord at His coming back will be saved, they will be saved so as through fire. Through fire surely indicates punishment.

"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward" (1 Cor. 3:14). If he doesn't built with the Triune God (gold/silver/precious stones), then no reward? What will this meant then if all receive reward?

If this is true, we will problems [lots of] with including the verses you mentioned:

1) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matt 8:12

2) In Revelation, the word was spoken to the church, not to unbelievers, that there will be overcomers, a remnant (Rev 2-3).

3) Matt 18:23 "settle accounts with his slaves". Slaves definitely are not unbelievers. Verse 34, "And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed." How can we explain this? This is the Lord's dealing with His believers at His coming back. If we do not forgive the brother who sins against us, we will be disciplined by the Lord until we forgive him from the heart, i.e., until we repay all that is owed. Then the Lord will forgive us. This is forgiveness in the kingdom. This implies that if we do not forgive a brother from our heart today, we will not be allowed to enter into the kingdom in the coming age.

4) 2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad."

5) Also, Paul's metaphor of running the race to gain the prize. It won't make sense if he thinks that he has the reward already. Before writing Timothy, he did mentioned that he hasn't got the reward, always forgetting behind and looking forward. How can we reconciled this?

5a) There are five aspects of the crowns. The crown, a symbol of glory, is given as a prize, in addition to the Lord's salvation, to the triumphant runner of the race (1 Cor. 9:25). In contrast to salvation, which is of grace and by faith (Eph. 2:5, 8-9), this prize is not of grace nor by faith, but is of righteousness through works (Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12; 2 Cor. 5:10). The believers will be recompensed with such a reward, not according to the Lord's grace but according to His righteousness.

The New Testament speaks of the believers being rewarded with five different kinds of crowns in the future.

In 2 Tim. 4:8 we have the crown of righteousness (2 Tim. 4:8). "The crown of life" (Rev. 2:10). "The unfading crown of glory” (1 Pet. 5:4). "They may receive a corruptible crown, but we, an incorruptible" (1 Cor. 9:25). "Joy or crown" (1 Thes. 2:19; Phil. 4:1).

And lot more verses from Hebrews, Matthew that is frequently used by our dear Arminianism brothers will be problematic if we adhere to this interpretation.

For 1 Corinthians 2:9, the context is we are enjoying this reality now in our Christian life to those who love Him. We don't have to wait till then . Though I can't imagine applying to the future that since the context is present.

The Bible is silent on what kind of disciplines as I don't think there is a ranking [fallen concept - no such things]. But, based on the parable of the ten virgins (maturity in the divine life (oil in the vessel)) and slaves [faithfulness in service]. If we are not perfected in this short age, this 1000 years, the Lord will make sure all defeated believers matured in His life and to be faithful in service. This is just one aspect. We just don't analyse it too much when there is not much. But we can be sure, there will be a judgement on the believers.

You are right that it is different from the great white throne judgement.

Shortly before the beginning of the great tribulation (which coincides with the second half of the last week in Daniel), the rapture of the overcoming believers to the heavens, including the rapture of the dead overcomers—the man-child (Rev. 12:1-11)—and the rapture of the living overcomers— the firstfruits (14:1-5), will take place. The remainder of the believers (the majority) will be raptured at the very end of the great tribulation. The rapture of the overcoming believers, especially of the man-child, will precipitate war in heaven, and the devil will be cast down to earth to form an evil trinity with Antichrist and the false prophet. After all the believers have been raptured, they will appear before the judgment seat of Christ to be judged not concerning eternal salvation (a matter which is settled once for all and which is eternally secure from the time we believe and are regenerated) but concerning reward or punishment during the age of the kingdom. Those who are approved by the Lord Jesus and receive a reward will enter into the Lord's joy and reign with Him in the millennial kingdom; those who are disapproved will not simply lose the reward but will also experience some kind of dispensational punishment in "the outer darkness" (Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 25:30).

The problem is not with sin but with the maturity of life. We can have a resurrected body but within like Paul mentioned, we are still not renewed, sanctified, transformed, conformed or glorified in our soul. We are still infants. The divine life that we have never experienced in our daily salvation (Phil.) will not magically appear This is why, the foolish virgins do not have EXTRA oil (The Spirit) in their vessel (soul). They have only oil in their lamp (spirit - Proverbs) = they are genuinely saved. The Lord is not marrying a child Bride

P.S. Unless you genuinely really want to know, the matter of the kingdom reward solves both problems inherent in Calvinism and Arminianism. Do bring it up if you like to know more so that I won't waste anyone's time if you are not interested.

This matter of the judgment of the believers and of their being hurt by the fire is neither Calvinism nor Arminianism. According to Calvinism, once we are saved, we are saved forever, and there can be no further problem. In a sense, Calvinism is correct, for once we are saved, we are saved for eternity. However, we should not say that there can be no problems. There is the possibility of being burned in the fire. According to Arminianism, some may be saved in the morning and lose their salvation that night. Their salvation goes up and down like an elevator. Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is according to the pure word of the Bible. The Bible reveals that we are saved for eternity, but that after we are saved, we need to overcome every sinful thing. If not, we shall be disciplined, punished. If you do not repent and confess your sin, but stay in adultery, in the next age you will be put into the fire and burned, not for eternal perdition, but as a dispensational punishment.

This is righteous! Otherwise, I can go and enjoy the world knowing that I have already obtained the reward. It really doesn't make sense ... and I can't convince anyone of that or myself

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 24 2014, 09:43 AM

<shake head>

Let me give you the benefit of doubt and only address the minimalistic fact to your statement "If they were saved, the bridegroom will not make that remark".

Matt 7

21 Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, was it not in Your name that we prophesied, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name did many works of power?

23 And then I will declare to them: I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.

This should make thing consistent with the parable.

Unless this is fairy tale too. Then, it is quite scary with today's Christian to just do away with verses that did not fit your theology.


BTW, still awaiting your proof of verses, though ...

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 24 2014, 12:27 PM

The target audience are believers Why would we be workers of the Lord if we aren't?

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 24 2014, 12:37 PM

I win for what?

At least, be open to consider a bit lar. It doesn't hurt to and will make you "cut straight" the Lord's word better or know the text better.

Haha ... kinda of a tradition that time

I think when the verse like this:

Matthew 26:20 "When evening came, Jesus was reclining at table ..."

I guess we can assume he reclined.

This is interesting ....

http://youtu.be/byAoFbA6cr8

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 26 2014, 08:34 AM

So, the discussion was that a genuine saved believer can still be sinning continuously?

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 26 2014, 04:01 PM

If he grows in the divine life, of course. Classic example of in 1 Cor. 6, the Corinthians were saved but so fleshly (were babe).

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be bled astray; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals

10 Nor thieves nor the covetous, not drunkards, not revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And these things were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

... just continue down

17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.

18 Flee fornication. Every sin which a man may do is outside the body, but he who commits fornication sins against his own body.

19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

....

They were fleshly yet have the Spirit of God in them (spirit). But their soul are still untransformed.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 26 2014, 04:24 PM

True as in?

If true = saved

Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth

They are two different thing.

How's thing? The discussion [I wasn't following closely] has come to be Piros believing that unknown is making monergistic statement on on-going salvation [sanctification] instead of synergistic.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 28 2014, 05:13 PM

You mean either monergistic or synergistic?