The Bible doesn't agree with being chosen? You are very vague with your statement? What does the verses in Hebrew with related to what you are asking?
Dealings?

1) Fighting in the womb
2) Supplanting his brother causing his brother to want to kill him
3) He has to flee all his life
4) Laban cheating him, wages + Leah
5) 2 sons killing a town
6) daughter got raped
7) losing Rachel, the love of his life
8) Joseph

and the list goes on

I think besides that, sylar111 also wish to know the life-application (Exegesis) of the passage or point you shared.

You have to understand that in experience of life (divine) portrayed by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with Joseph each represent an aspect of the experience of life.
Jacob stands for the transformed life and Joseph represents the ruling aspect, the kingly aspect, of this transformed life. They represent one whole person

This fulfilled Gen 1:26 image and dominion at least portrayed in OT.

We were made for the purpose of expressing God and exercising His dominion. The subject of Genesis is man bearing the image of God and exercising God's dominion over all things. We bear God's image that we might express Him, and we have God's dominion that we might represent Him. This is the heart of Genesis.

In order to know this in a progressive way, we need all fifty chapters of this book. All the generations recorded in it—Adam, Abel, Enosh, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph—are for one purpose: to show that God's economy in the universe is to express Himself through man. This is God's purpose, God's goal, and the desire of God's heart. God's purpose and economy are related to man.

The record of all the generations included in this book is a portrait of God's divine economy. In Adam we do not see much of God's expression and dominion. Although Abel believed in God, we do not clearly see in him God's expression and dominion. Enosh realized that he was fragile and weak, and he began to call on the name of the Lord. But in him we scarcely see God's expression or dominion. Enoch walked with God. Therefore, we see in him a little of God's expression; however, we see nothing of God's dominion. Although with Noah we do see a little of God's expression and dominion, it is rather vague; it is not definite, impressive, or clear. In Abraham we see less of God's expression and dominion than we do in Noah. Although many Christians have overly exalted Abraham, he was only on the first level of the doctrine of Christ. Abraham was the father of faith for justification, which is merely the beginning of the doctrine of Christ. Furthermore, we can hardly see God's expression and dominion in Isaac. Isaac, the one who inherited everything from his father, only cared for eating. As long as he was given something good to eat, he would grant his blessing blindly.

It is in Jacob that we see the expression of God. However, prior to the last fourteen chapters of this book, we do not see much of God's expression in Jacob. But in these last chapters we do see in him very much of the expression of God and the dominion of God. Although in this section Jacob was old in years, his spiritual eyes were very keen. Wherever he went, he perceived the real situation and blessed people accordingly. Moreover, his blessing became God's prophecy. Jacob truly bore the image of God and expressed Him. Even Pharaoh, the highest ruler at that time, was under Jacob's blessing. When Jacob was brought into the presence of Pharaoh, Jacob did not say, "Hello, how are you? How old are you?" Rather, he stretched forth his hand and blessed him (47:7, 10). This indicates that Pharaoh was under Jacob, the one who was God's expression.

Here in Jacob we see a man who was one with God and who expressed God.

But what about God's dominion? The book of Genesis ends with Joseph exercising dominion over the whole earth. Although Pharaoh was the king, he was merely a figurehead. The acting king was Joseph, who is a part of Jacob in the experience of life. In Jacob with Joseph we see the expression of God with the dominion of God. Never separate Joseph from Jacob. The record of the last fourteen chapters of Genesis mixes the two together. This indicates that Joseph is the reigning part of Jacob, and that Jacob and Joseph should not be considered as separate persons.

Actually if you read Genesis 41, Pharaoh is only a figure head, Joseph become the Ruler.

Huh? I am not asking for a list ... I meant the list of dealings goes on ... Dealings are not big things always ... it is always the normal, small details of our life that God touches and deals. All happenings is in God's hand.

2-3) He made peace? Lol He was so cunning ... always trying to stay ahead of things ...  He even put the women and children in front .... so that there is time to escape God deals with his supplants-ness.

"And Jacob lifted up his eyes, and looked, and, behold, Esau came, and with him four hundred men. And he divided the children unto Leah, and unto Rachel, and unto the two handmaids. And he put the handmaids and their children foremost, and Leah and her children after, and Rachel and Joseph hindermost. And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother." He was still as cunning as before. He even bowed down seven times to the ground before his brother. Verse 4 says, "And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept." Jacob did not expect that his schemes would not be needed and that all his plans were in vain. God's protection was real. All he needed was a little faith and he could have avoided much vexation and fear! Esau did not try to kill him; rather, he was coming to welcome him. He embraced Jacob, fell on his neck, and kissed him. All of Jacob's cleverness and plans came to nothing!

5) We all have our "Laban" . - boss, friends, colleague etc.
On the marriage day you thought that your wife is your Rachel .... it turn out to be Leah. All married man can testify this ... Many times we have a lot of "Rachels - heart treasure" in us and it turn to "Leahs".

After he lost Rachel, the first choice of his natural love [that was a blow]. He lost Joseph ... the son of the love of his life. How is this not a dealing? Throughout the time, Jacob never had any closure ... he never knew whether he was alive or dead. Those time cause him to be open to God and God uses this to fill him and transform him.

I think the point this, we all experiencing God as the God of dealing not only as the sufficient One, God of grace, mercy, love etc. To realize that suffering however small or big, as Christian, we must have a view that God is transforming us for His purpose.

Pharaoh did not instruct him when it comes to ruler ship. Joseph gets to decide that on his own authority.
In Fact Pharaoh reaffirms that in verse

Pharaoh as Figurehead
Genesis 41:40 (NIV) -  You shall be in charge of my palace, and all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I be greater than you."

Rulership
Genesis 41:41 (NIV) - So Pharaoh said to Joseph, "I hereby put you in charge of the whole land of Egypt."
Genesis 41:44 (NIV) - Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, "I am Pharaoh, but without your word no one will lift hand or foot in all Egypt."

Yeah. sometimes can get too caught up with the bible knowledge.

I concur  . If Pharoah decided to have Joseph's head on a platter, he would definitely had gotten his wish granted.
Joseph only had as much power as the Pharoah bestowed upon him. The Pharoah was clearly in charge.

As for Jacob, he only tagged along with the rest of his family to Egypt. Joseph was definitely NOT a proxy of Jacob.
The Bible doesn't say. I wonder where did that come from 

1. How are those not matured perfected during the 1000 years?
2. How is the maturing process and where will they be during this time period?

The Bema Seat Judgement IS where rewards are given out. There is no further need of a 'maturity period' after this event.

Rev 21:16 gives the length and width of the New Jerusalem which ascends from Heaven. Rev 21:17 gives further detailed description of the New Jerusalem. It sure looks real to me. Of course, those who still have their earthly bodies can't enter. It's the home of the saints(incorruptible bodies) after all. It will also be here through eternity. At the end of the 1000 years millennial kingdom, there will be a new heaven & earth, but New Jerusalem remains.

If you want to discuss, discuss, no need to be sarcastic to me. I don't need it.

What do you mean I did it to other?

if you didn't know what happened before this, I have enough of this turmoil. Before you came in, there was this trouble maker, theaccountant.

Not in the mood to go through another roller coaster ride.

I just want our Christian fellowship to be a place where every Christians can relax and not have our defensive shield up all the time.

It really defeat the purpose if we are always bickering all the time in here.

Hope you understand.

Edit: No I'm not implying you are theaccountant guy, don't get me wrong, I just want to avoid all form of hostility.

And for whatever I've done you wrong, I apologize.

Actually what I don't understand is whether Joseph/Pharoah is real ruler or CEO, what is the point at the end? what is so important about it? What spiritual insight of all these? Because has been asking but this didn't get explanation or understand. IMO, it is not that important. So do not really need to be so into it.

Huh? I am not asking for a list ... I meant the list of dealings goes on ... Dealings are not big things always ... it is always the normal, small details of our life that God touches and deals. All happenings is in God's hand.

2-3) He made peace? Lol He was so cunning ... always trying to stay ahead of things ...  He even put the women and children in front .... so that there is time to escape God deals with his supplants-ness.

"And Jacob lifted up his eyes, and looked, and, behold, Esau came, and with him four hundred men. And he divided the children unto Leah, and unto Rachel, and unto the two handmaids. And he put the handmaids and their children foremost, and Leah and her children after, and Rachel and Joseph hindermost. And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother." He was still as cunning as before. He even bowed down seven times to the ground before his brother. Verse 4 says, "And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept." Jacob did not expect that his schemes would not be needed and that all his plans were in vain. God's protection was real. All he needed was a little faith and he could have avoided much vexation and fear! Esau did not try to kill him; rather, he was coming to welcome him. He embraced Jacob, fell on his neck, and kissed him. All of Jacob's cleverness and plans came to nothing!

5) We all have our "Laban" . - boss, friends, colleague etc.
On the marriage day you thought that your wife is your Rachel .... it turn out to be Leah. All married man can testify this ... Many times we have a lot of "Rachels - heart treasure" in us and it turn to "Leahs".

After he lost Rachel, the first choice of his natural love [that was a blow]. He lost Joseph ... the son of the love of his life. How is this not a dealing? Throughout the time, Jacob never had any closure ... he never knew whether he was alive or dead. Those time cause him to be open to God and God uses this to fill him and transform him.

I think the point this, we all experiencing God as the God of dealing not only as the sufficient One, God of grace, mercy, love etc. To realize that suffering however small or big, as Christian, we must have a view that God is transforming us for His purpose.

Do you know 14-9-2015? He uses the exact phrase "Bema Seat Judgement".

1) I won't know ... only that it won't be pleasant. Matthew describe it as "outer darkness". 1 Corinthians (which I quoted) we will be saved as through fire.  In Matthew 18 the Lord spoke of a believer who did not forgive from the heart his brother who had offended him. When the Lord comes to judge the believers, that is, “to settle accounts with his slaves” (v. 23), He will deliver such a one “to the torturers,” that is, He will cause him to be punished in the millennium until he forgives his brother from his heart (vv. 34-35). This shows that some believers’ sins will be forgiven only after punishment in the millennium. If a believer sins after being saved, he can be forgiven and chastised by God for some sins in this age, that is, today. But some sins can be forgiven only after the believer is punished in the millennium.

2) It will be in the realm of speculation as I don't know. But how He deals with us today as in the experiences of Jacob. I bet that time, it will be intensified. I won't know ;D. Where? Does it matter? Probably on earth.
If the New Jerusalem seem real ... then can you say the throne is God and a physical Lamb? Or it is the wife of the Lamb and the mother of the believers. I think the first verse in Revelation gives use the key:

The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John,
If you believe that all will be matured, then you have to interpret these verses which I brought up to him:

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...&#entry68863804

Also, I don't really have time .... but here is something:

The first judgment is that exercised by God when the Lord Jesus was on the cross. The crucifixion of the Lord was a judgment, for the righteous God judged the Lord Jesus as our Substitute. Hence, the Lord Jesus was judged by God on our behalf.

Second, in the church age God exercises another kind of judgment, and this is God’s judgment over His house. First Peter 4:17 says, “It is time for the judgment to begin from the house of God.” God’s house, or household, is the church composed of the believers (1 Pet. 2:5; 1 Tim. 3:15). God judges His people so that they may be disciplined, purified, and separated from the unbelievers and not have the same destiny as they. Such disciplinary judgment begins from God’s own household. Therefore, if we are careless in doing things, we shall be judged. Instead of judgment, we may speak of being disciplined, chastised, or corrected. However, discipline, chastisement, and correction are actually God’s judgment. God is always right and righteous, and He will not allow anything under His rule to be wrong. For this reason, He sometimes judges us.

The third kind of judgment in the New Testament will be the judgment of the believers at the judgment seat of Christ. After all the dead saints have been resurrected and raptured and all the living ones have been raptured, a judgment seat will be set up for Christ to judge all His genuine believers. This judgment will determine whether a believer receives a reward or some kind of dispensational punishment. Paul says, “We must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for the things done through the body, according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad” (2 Cor. 5:10). This judgment seat is where Christ will judge His believers at His coming back, not concerning eternal salvation but concerning their dispensational reward (1 Cor. 4:4-5; 3:13-15).

Another verse that speaks of the believers being judged is Romans 14:10, where Paul tells us, “We shall all stand before the judgment seat of God.” This judgment is different from the eternal judgment of God mentioned in Romans 2:2, 3, 5, 16 and 3:8, which will be mainly carried out at the white throne revealed in Revelation 20:11-15. The eternal judgment at the white throne will be after the millennium, it will be to judge all the dead unbelievers, and it will be for eternal punishment in the lake of fire. However, the judgment at the judgment seat of God, or the judgment seat of Christ, will be before the millennium, immediately after Christ’s coming back, it will be to judge all the resurrected and raptured believers, and it will be for reward in the millennial kingdom.

The fourth judgment revealed in the New Testament is the judgment of the living at Christ’s throne of glory (Matt. 25:31-46). After the Lord Jesus defeats Antichrist and his army, many of the Gentiles will still be living on earth. The Lord will gather them to Himself and judge them. “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He shall sit on His throne of glory; and all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats” (vv. 31-32). Those that are regarded as sheep will be transferred into the millennium to be the people under the kingly ruling of Christ and the overcoming believers (Rev. 2:26-27; 12:5; 20:4-6) and under the priestly ministry of the saved Jews (Zech. 8:20-23). Those that are regarded as goats will go with their leader, Antichrist, “into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41).

The fifth judgment in the New Testament will be executed by Christ on the dead unbelievers after the millennium. Christ is the Judge of both the living and the dead (Acts 10:42; 2 Tim. 4:1). Whereas the living will be judged before the millennium, the dead will be judged afterward, as revealed in Revelation 20:11-15, the judgment at the great white throne. The unbelievers will be condemned by the Lord because of their evil deeds, and then they will perish because of their unbelief, not having their names written in the book of life. Therefore, at the great white throne Christ will judge the dead unbelievers to determine their eternal perdition.

Just google "supplanter jacob" ...

Well, if you only look at the major milestones ... then of course .... On the one hand God deals with man by giving him a "fundamental" dealing, A fundamental dealing means that there is no returning to our former condition. When God's light to expose our true nature. Once it is exposed, we are no longer able to return to or recover our old condition.

But God also do deal with men in a fragmentary way. Small incremental dealings which eventually lead to a major "fundamental" dealing. There are environments which God prepared that will expose us more and more.

Fragmentary dealings are like symptomatic cures in medical treatment. Fundamental dealings are like major operations, and supplementary dealings are like post-operative treatments of supplemental medications that help recover the health of the body. Fragmentary dealings must be accompanied by fundamental dealings before the former will become beneficial to a person.

Hey 14-9-2015, actually the post was directed to Pharmacist on the New Jerusalem, so I won't waste your time on New Jerusalem.

I am familiar with what "mainstream" teaches and that is the problem ... I can't reconciled it with the verses in Matthew 25. Definitely, they have to take the premise that those cast into outer darkness are non-believers .... otherwise the other alternative was they will lose their salvation. In which, we cannot accept that based on the Lord's word.

The problem with the interpretation that I find is ...

1) why would unbelievers wait for the Bridegroom?

2) Both the wise and the foolish have lamps ... what is the significance of it? The only one I can associated with was Proverbs [referring to our spirit]. Also Luke 12:35; Matt. 5:15-16; which definitely refers to believers

3) How about buying? Paying a price? How will you interpreted this? The church in Laodicea in Revelation speaks of paying the price ... definitely believers.

4) Also, the Lord charge to watch ... why will unbelievers need to watch??

There are many more ... if we take this interpretation. That is only the parable of the virgin. The next parable is on faithfulness in service. We now require the believers to be faithful in serving the Lord???

You have to really help with me with this if I can accept that? There is something inadequate with the "mainstream" teaching. It produces a false sense of security.

I know that the Scofield Study Bible do agrees with this. Maybe you can answer my questions before I can answer yours ... because of the premise.

Sorry for the late reply ... some errands.

Ah yes, if it the Jews .... but the Jews aren't the recipient of the parable in Matthew 25. It was only spoken privately to the disciples. Definitely the Jews won't wait for the Bridegroom or serve God as stewards as depicted in Matthew 25. The parable starts with the "kingdom of the heaven will be liken ...."

Regarding "fear and punishment" I think that kind of reaction is too negative. Firstly, then we should be positive to enjoy Christ to be a full grown man for God's expression. Paul is always charging us positively, forgetting the things behind; run telling us positively - forget the things behind ... run to claim the reward ... finish the race.

If we are Christians .... just because of the judgement seat .... what a pitiful Christian we will be. Yet we sometimes need this. Sometimes I am discouraged, the realization of a coming judgement is very sobering.

Yet, there is the matter of the gospel of the kingdom in contrast with the gospel of grace. The truth is always balanced. The highest enjoyment of grace is to meet the highest requirement of the kingdom. Matthew and John are sisters books. The kingdom and grace goes together. God's grace requires His strict dealing and vice versa.

It is a matter of God's righteousness (Psa 89:14). Peter was even stronger in his epistle. But while His governmental hand is there, His grace is there simultaneously.

Because of our natural concepts, we are prone to consider that the first item of the New Testament gospel is the forgiveness of sins and the second item is eternal life. Negatively our sins have been forgiven and positively we have eternal life. But in fact the first word of the New Testament gospel was to repent for the sake of the kingdom of the heavens (Matt. 3:2; 4:17). We need forgiveness of sins so that we can have eternal life, and we need eternal life so that we can be under the heavenly rule. The kingdom is the requirement of the gospel, and the life is the supply of the gospel. What the gospel requires, it also supplies. The gospel requires us to be governed and ruled by the heavens. The gospel also supplies us with the divine life for us to fulfill the requirements of the kingdom.

If we are going to meet the requirements of such a high standard, we must have a life that is on an equally high plane. Otherwise, we cannot meet such a high standard. Only the divine life can meet such a high standard. Only the divine life can meet the requirements of the heavenly government. The kingdom is the requirement of the New Testament gospel, and the eternal life, which is Christ Himself, is the supply. The divine life can fulfill the requirements of the kingdom. Once we see the matter of the kingdom, we can see how high a standard is required by the gospel. After we are saved, we have a heavenly requirement within us demanding us to live on a high level. This level can be reached only by the supply of the divine life.

We have to look beyond the dealings to God's goal to produce mature sons of God. This is why Paul's ministry was to present every man mature, full grown in Christ for the one new man (Col. 1:28-29; 3:10-11). It is either we lose the soul life this age or the next age (Matthew 16:25).

We are all going to arrive sooner or later. Why not sooner?

It is NOT a matter of sins. It is that our soul is not filled with Christ. This is to neglect His salvation. So, if we escape being matured in this age of grace. He will make sure we will all mature in the next. It is really mercy (like a 2nd chance) ... and God will definitely gain what He wants.

If you don't like the word punishment, you can decide ... perfecting, maturing, dealing .... however we put it .... we can never deny the reality of the kingdom, the kingdom in its reality, is an exercise and discipline for us in the church today (Matt. 5:3, 10, 20; 7:21). However, His grace is there. Marvelous!

Hope it helps ...

God know when to deal with you

Hebrews 12:7

7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons. For what son is there whom the father does not discipline?

Hebrews 12:8

8 But if you are without discipline, of which all sons have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

Hebrews 12:11

11 Now no discipline at the present time seems to be a matter of joy, but of grief; but afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been exercised by it.

Do remember that this is not about initial salvation. And no, I am not matured XD ... the process will take our whole life. Salvation in our spirit is instantaneous (regeneration) but transformation (Rom 12:1; 2 Cor. 3:18) and maturity in our soul (mind, emotion, will) will require our whole life. The Lord will measured to us a course like Paul says (so there is no comparison between believers). Paul was able to say he finished it and a crown awaits him. But, he only mentioned this at the end of his life in his Epistle to Timothy.

The topic is soo big  ... maybe I can just share a little and what questions you may have, you can ask as we go. I will start with vision or seeing what growth of life is:

GROWING WITH THE GROWTH OF GOD

First Corinthians 3:6-7 says, “I planted, Apollos watered, but God made to grow; so that neither is the one who plants anything nor the one who waters, but the One who makes to grow, God.” Verse 9 says, “For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s farm, God’s building.” Growth in these verses is not the growth in knowledge because here Paul speaks of a farm. Planting and watering are not related to knowledge. To plant is not to instruct but to nourish by supplying the plant with fertile soil. Likewise, to water is not to teach but to supply the plant with nutrients in the water. This is related to life.

Colossians 2:19 says, “Holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, by means of the joints and bands being supplied and knit together, grows with the growth of God.” These verses show us that to grow is to grow with something. If a young boy does not eat or drink, he will have nothing with which to grow. One cannot grow with nothing. Rather, without something with which to grow, one will die. Dietitians tell us that we are what we eat. If we eat beef, we will be constituted with the meat of the cow. If we eat fish, we will be constituted with fish.

To grow in the divine life is to have the increase of God in us.

1) The increase of the element of God means that more of God Himself has been mingled with us and received by us to become our element. Therefore, the real growth of life is the increase of God’s life within us. Life is God Himself (John 1:4; 10:10; 11:25; 14:6). When life grows in us, God is increased in us. Life grows and increases to an extent that we may be filled unto all the fullness of God. This is the final word of Ephesians 3:19.

2) Colossians 3:4 says that Christ is our life. Thus, growth of life is the increase of Christ within us. The more we love Christ and pursue Christ (Gal. 4:19), the more the measure of the stature of Christ will increase within us (Eph 4:13). This is the real growth of life.

3) Life is God, life is Christ, and life is also the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:2). Therefore, to grow in life is to allow the Holy Spirit to gain more ground in us (Eph. 3:17)

The above three points—the increase of the element of God, the increase of the measure of the stature of Christ, and the expansion of the ground of the Holy Spirit—are on God’s side. On our side, the growth of life is the decrease of our human element, that is, the decrease of the flavor of man and the increase of the flavor of God.

2 Cor. 4:7-18 - Living a Crucified Life for the Manifestation of the Resurrection Life by the Power of the Treasure in the Earthen Vessels

The growth of life is also the breaking of the natural life (Gal 2:20). In regard to the flesh, the focus of breaking is on its corruption and its opposition to God. In regard to the self, the focus of breaking is on our thoughts and views. In regard to the natural life, the focus of breaking is on our skills, ability, and capability. Concerning these things, the more they are broken, the more the life within will grow. Thus, the growth of life, on the negative side, refers to the decrease of the human element and also to the breaking of our natural life.

The breaking of the natural life and the decrease of the human element are related to the growth of life (John 3:30). In contrast, does the improvement of behavior cause the human element to decrease? Improvement in behavior means that our behavior, which originally was not good, has improved and that we can even be more successful and considerate in dealing with people and matters. However, such improvement does not cause our human element to decrease ; instead, it causes our human element to increase. It not only increases, but it is even strengthened.

The more a person’s behavior improves, the more the self is strengthened (Matt. 16:24). Similarly, expressions of piety cause the human element only to increase. The mere expression of piety will cause one to be strengthened rather than diminished. Hence, this is not the growth of life. Zeal in service, in the same way, causes an increase only in the human element. This is true concerning the increase of knowledge, the abounding in gifts, and the increase of power. All of these things only increase the human element and cannot cause one to have the growth of life.

The growth of life depends on the increase of God and Christ within us—all other aspects should decrease. If we desire to grow in life, our gifts must be stripped by God, and our shell of godliness and piety must be knocked down and broken by God. Our knowledgeable mind, our gifts, and our power must be shattered by God so that the Holy Spirit will have a way to be released. The growth of life depends upon the increase of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit within us. Everything else must decrease.

The Subduing of Every Part of the Soul

Furthermore, the growth of life subdues every part of our soul. The more our soul is subdued, the more life grows, and the more our soul decreases, the more life increases. This is a certain fact. When we meet a saint, there is no need to measure what has been increased in him; rather, we should observe what has been decreased in him and whether he has been poured out and broken. If there is a decrease of himself, then God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit have surely gained ground in him and have increased in him. Only this is the real growth of life.

The real growth of life is not the improvement of behavior, the expression of piety, zealousness in service, an increase of knowledge, an abounding in gifts, or an increase of power. Rather, the real growth of life is the increase of the element of God, the increase of the measure of the stature of Christ, the expansion of the ground of the Holy Spirit, the decrease of the human element, the breaking of the natural life, and the subduing of every part of the soul. On the positive side, growth in life is the increase of the Triune God within us, the increase of the measure of the stature of Christ, and the expanding of the ground of the Holy Spirit. On the negative side, it is the breaking, consuming, and reducing of our outer man, that is, the decrease of our human element, the breaking of our natural life, and the subduing of every part of our soul.

---------------------------------------

Are we there? Do we love God with our entire being? Do we still the world within us? Is Matthew 5-7 characterize our church life? Are we fleshly? Can we build with others? We still commit sins. We are always for the self. These are the negatives only.

Are you fully sanctified (Hebrews 2:11)? renewed (2 Corinthians 4:16)? transformed (1 Cor 12:1)? conformed (2 Cor 3:18)? glorified (Rom. 8:29)?

How about those I listed https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/3197598/+1880#        You know the answer lar. XD XD

May the Lord graced you to grow!!

I don't he purposely confuse people here. can't think of a reason why