This is correct. Many pre/pros don't actually have fully balanced connections from their XLR outputs. Often times, it's only the L/R channels which are balanced and perhaps the Center in some scenarios. In this instance, using RCA can actually provide a lower noise floor than an XLR cable.

Fully balanced pre/pros for ALL channels are expensive and also a dying breed unfortunately.

Does this happen to ordinary DD 640kbps or DD+ also?

As long as the display is capable of receiving HDR10 metadata, then it can display it (keyword is receiving, whether the display can even do HDR properly or not is another topic). The receiver/player needs to be set to passthrough (or anything equivalent) and no processing can be done.

Dolby Vision is a little more complicated. The reason the majority of TVs and players don't support it is more down due to licensing fees. Why pay when you have free? Dolby Vision is better, no questions asked. But when you have 99% of the movie-buffs not even being able to tell the difference between an 8bit and 10bit panel, then what's the point in spending the effort for the speck of minority who cares?

There is "filter" needed. If a display has no capabilities of receiving HDR metadata, it simply won't display it. Plain and simple. No such issues as wrong color range.

I however, cannot answer why some players can passthrough HDR and some cannot. It's not exactly HDCP or HDMI related, as even something as old as the PS4 which consists of HDCP 1.2 and HDMI 1.4 can passthrough HDR without issues.

This post has been edited by SSJBen: Dec 31 2016, 10:14 PM

Displays that are capable of reproducing proper HDR values (at least above 1000 units on a peak brightness scale of 10% window) follows a different set of calibration values. As for HDR making it worse, yup - just take a look at all those displays that really only has 400 nits in brightness and pretends that's HDR. Edge lit TVs are the worse offenders especially, with haloing and blown-out whites. Unfortunately, majority of people thinks it's awesome because.. "HDR". Lol.

Perhaps not entirely on-topic, just hear me out for a minute. I've did some digging into the HDR compatibility thing via the PS4. Yes I know, it's a game console but it's also a media player at the same time. Thing is, it's related in the fact that it never had HDR capability until just over 2 months ago.
By checking out some of the design prints and schematics, it seems to me that the HDMI controller on the PS4 (a custom Panasonic MN86471A) needs to be able to passthrough HDR in the first place. In this case, because the southbridge of the PS4 encrypts all data into HDCP2.2, all the HDMI controller needs is patching it for support via firmware update (which Sony did).

Now to return to the question at hand: whether or not disc players compatibility is required?
From what I understand, many do not have the support because of various reasons like not having the proper HDMI controller or as it was already infamous enough; the HDMI port not actually being a true HDMI 2.0a port with HDCP 2.2 support.

Remember how in 2015 we had receivers with only 2 or 3 ports being HDMI 2.0a/HDCP 2.2 capable? In 2016, we have countless displays where only ONE HDMI port is capable of receiving HDR metadata, 4k at 4:4:4 at 8-bit, or 4k at 60hz.

All this leads me to believe that the HDMI controllers (and since there are so many of them) are at fault here. To take the PS4 as an example again (since it's like the only mainstream media player that received a firmware to enable itself to be a HDR capable machine), manufacturers can indeed patch HDR support into their receivers/players IF the HDMI controller is capable of handling the data to begin with.

Unfortunately it's impossible to tell which player/receiver has which HDMI controller since there are so many of them. Also the fact that majority of manufacturers refreshes their product cycle every 8-14 months (not everyone is Oppo you know, telling people it'll be ready when it's read), it's economically obvious to many that wasting time on old products where they can instead cash in the feature on next year's product is a wiser choice (unless you have like 45 million units sold on a single SKU).

As for the last question, I don't have an Oppo 203. So... not much comment about what you've said about the player have different results. By right, if the player is connected to a non-HDR capable TV, then the option should simply be greyed out entirely (which is what the PS4s/XboneS are doing).
Can you link me to that FB post where the person tested out HDR on a non-HDR capable display? Sounds to me like the processing is done on the player itself before being sent out to the display (basically like "bitstreaming" the entire video signal over after post-processing).

Good discussion though.


Which ripping software did you use? Also, what settings? Different rippers has different algorithms and it has objectively been tested that many ripping softwares has not always done the perfect job of a bit-matched rip.

This is the same case with remuxing blu-ray movies also. I've came across some remux rips using DTS-HD as the codec but instead somehow, the bitrate is only 1.5mbps instead of being above 3mbps (the average for DTS-HD files). Sure enough, I took the same disc version and compared them A-B and there's an absolute difference which is noticeable to my ears.

This is what you call variable causes.
But with all else being equal, I still hear no difference.

Lol soon everyone's receivers are outdated again. Lmao.

Doesn't work for my setup. Oppo players HDMI passthroughs adds quite a bit of input lag. I do play games, so that's a big no-no.

That said, HDMI 2.1 can be firmware patched into HDMI 2.0 hardwares provided the implementation was following the standard to begin with. So fingers crossed that my receiver gets it. But then again, companies want to milk their products and want to make money, so they probably might not even care.

You're mistaken James.

My reply to saitong99 was in regards to why an Oppo (or any player with a HDMI passthrough for that matter) does not work for my setup is because I do play games. This all came up with the HDMI 2.1 post, which although at this point nothing uses it and won't for quite a while, is something I'm concerned with in the next 2-3 years.

Because saitong99 said "if your player has dual HDMI out like Oppo receiver no need upgrade", wouldn't that mean having to passthrough all info to the Oppo player then out to the display?
The Oppo HDMI passthrough is not a pure direct passthrough, it adds latency and causes irregular spikes in input lag (which is a lot worse than just having a constant number). That's why for my setup consisting of a gaming PC/HTPC + consoles, that isn't going to work for me.

My current (and always have been) setup is of course the simplest most direct way - all sources to the receiver, then receiver out to the display. Inherently, receivers do add input lag as well. But turning off all the GUI/short message displays, disabling upscaling, all comes down to just under 5ms of additional input lag. So it's something that is mostly not noticeable versus plugging directly to the display.

If that's what he is saying, then I appologize because I've partly mistaken what he said.

I was under the impression that he's saying all sources except the Oppo player is connected to the receiver. Then receiver to Oppo player then out to the display. By doing this, like I said - it causes noticeable increase in input lag because the signal is being processed by the player. It's not a direct passthrough, this is even with Darbee entirely disabled.

I'm talking strictly about games here, not movies.



I belief I've partly mistaken on what saitong said earlier. My bad.

What I'm describing is INPUT lag, not system lag like you're explaining in your post. Input lag ties strictly to games and nothing else (unless you like playing with GUIs...?).

As I explained to bro Skylinestar, I was mistaken by Saitong's comment. So my mistake there, I was under the wrong impression that everything goes through the Oppo player.

The thing I'm mostly intrigued about the implementation of HDMI 2.1 is that it comes with the long awaited, critically important support for Variable Refresh Rate. That's really a game-changer for modern video games, where no longer a game needs to be tied a certain refresh rate, causing judder, drops or screen tearing. I'm sure you've heard of it already on the PC side via Gsync and Freesync.

Definitely room 3. Easy to predict where to put the sub(s), room treatments and know where the room modes are. It's a fairly symmetrical layout.
I don't know if you're willing to just seal up the window entirely, but if you do then it's a simple process really. Otherwise just get a pull-down screen (motorized or manual, up to you) instead of a fixed one.

Room 2, I foresee there are going to be A LOT of problematic room modes. It's going to be a very time consuming process in sub placements experimenting, how best to employ PEQ, where to put treatments... lots of things. If you're not anal about sound, then I guess... it doesn't matter much whichever room you put your HT setup in.

This post has been edited by SSJBen: Jan 25 2017, 10:36 PM

A solid core door for a start will be good. Best if you can do 2 doors.

Err... how is 580 sq. ft = 5800cu. ft? You cannot directly relate them since cubic feet has 1 extra layer dimension (height). So which is which?

To answer your question, the PB16 Ultra is undeniably the better sub. It has a lot more output below 25hz than the R115. Even if you couple 2xR115 in the same area for maximum amount of gain (+6db~), the PB16 Ultra will still beat them below 16hz with ease. Of course, place them (R115) well and they'll sound smoother than a single sub. You have to decide which is more important to you, smoother response over more seats or more output for 1 (or 2) seats.

Now since your room dimensions isn't clear and I presume that 580 sq. ft is your floor space only, then both subs should (in theory) should cover the space quite well with relative headroom to spare. It's really all down to how big your bank account is.

Personally I'd say buy 1 PB-16U now, then buy another PB-16U later on when you have the funds. Buy once, enjoy forever.

Alright, in that case... even dual PB-16Us aren't going to be enough. Since you said SB16U, that's even less output.

Dual PB2000s will get you more output than a single SB16u below 25hz though. How loud are you usually going to be playing your system btw?

So you are the one who bought from Chong recently (correct me if I'm wrong).

Saw it on his FB. The happy "couple", yes?

Good that you're enjoying the SB16. A fantastic sub indeed.

7 speakers (that are only average efficiency) running off a v681? Don't agree. Unless you have a small room or don't play loud, that receiver is going to stress itself a lot.

If you're going to only use one receiver for 7 speakers, you're better off getting high efficiency speakers. Look towards Klipsch RP series instead.

Set your speakers to "Small" and set a crossover of at least 80hz. But understand if you do this and you don't have a sub, you're effectively killing off the under 75hz region of your main L/R/C speakers bass performance. Therefore, things will absolutely sound tinny.

The other way; get a 2 channel (or multi channel if you want) power amp and use that to power your main front speakers. You can then run them at "Large" i.e Full Range. However, the receiver or pre/pro will need to have pre-outs in order to achieve this, the v681 doesn't have pre-outs unfortunately.


Simply setting the volume of the sub to 50% (or 12' oclock) doesn't guarantee that the sub will sound loud. Why? Room Modes, that's why.

To put it simply;
1) Maybe your sitting position may be in a HUGE null spot, that's why you don't hear the sub much.
2) Maybe your sub is placed wrongly in accordance to your main listening position, there by again - being placed in a null spot.
3) 50% is not a standard volume to set for all subs. Sub A can be 50% and hit 75db standard from the main listening position, however sub B might have to be set to 75% in order to hit 75db spl.

There are a multitude amount of other factors. This is why it's highly recommended to get an SPL meter and VERIFY the volume output from your listening position.

As for crossover setting, 80hz is a good general starting point. But it's not a set rule where all HT setups must abide to. It depends on the room and it certainly depends on the speakers. If your speakers cannot play down to 80hz with authority, then setting the crossover to 80hz will leave you with an obvious gap from the speaker's roll off -6db point. There is no "best" crossover setting, unless everyone owns the same speaker, sub and live in the same room.

What receiver are you using anyways?

Okay, so audyssey. My suggestion is to do a subcrawl first.

Just place your sub at your main listening position, go squat at the areas where your sub can be placed and play some bass heavy music. Listen and feel where is the best spot then adjust the volume accordingly.

The idea is that you want Audyssey to give you a result of your sub's volume trim at a negative level. Anywhere between -6db and -3db is just nice. Set your sub volume until it gives you that readout on the volume level. Then after that you can "run your sub hot" by boosting that level to a +3db or so. It's important not to go over 0db because MOST receivers clip the sub output beyond 0db, which causes distortion.


You can get an SPL meter from Lelong or Radioshack (hurry before they completely close down for good). Even better if you can get an analog one, but if you can't then a digital one should be okay enough. They should cost no more than RM70.

I would still suggest to set all your speakers to "Small". Bass management is important for movies especially. But yeah, what sounds good to you is the most important at the end of the day.

YPAO front has more bass because all it does is EQ all your speakers to your front L/R, which often times has the biggest drivers in the speaker system after the sub.

You can change all the power cables in your house, but can you change all the power cables coming to your house from the power station(s)?

Come on la guys.

Ah, the good ol' "skin effect" explanation. So you're basically saying the AC line that comes into the house, after being converted into DC is not a "flat" line going into the components and audiophile cables will "filter" that DC voltage into something just linear, correct?

Explain to me then how does a cable which has no receptors change a DC line that is not flat, to be... "flat"? I mean, the power cables has no transformer at all between the A plug and B plug, so are you telling me that a passive IEC block can somehow change the incoming DC voltage?

I know this subject is touchy and I hope there isn't any offense, but I've never been given a straight answer of how an entirely passive cable can do something to a line-in voltage. I want to know so I can justify spending RM1k for a 2ft power chord thicker than my penis.