Urm...we have (or had) a large database of them..

Goldfries..where is it ar?

I found it...

http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/208286

Urm...my current charges for blog designing isn't hitting RM1k yet. Just to let you all know..

It's not because I want to 'curi' the market but it's because my analysis of the immature market doesn't allow me to position my price (which I really want) at a rate which the clients I have will deem valuable as many still do not understand the capabilities and potential of a blog to boost business returns.

But if your marketing very powderful then I can't say anything lor. Besides, I'm just marketing a blog as a blog. Not a website + blog + CMS like some others.

It'll never happen...

Exactly. Which is why the education and relationship is very important.

Many businesses in Malaysia still do not understand how do they perceive or measure the value of a website (much less a blog). So as web designers/developers/consultants/marketers it's our sole responsibility to educate our clients. If the client wishes to play the mind game, Malaysians are much less just plain lazy Asians.

Normally the individuals or companies who do this seek volume..

LOL! Good one there..

Preaching won't do any good because what is lacking in the market is education. Not from the designer's side but the companies or clients.

And one of the reasons our market here is so saturated is because web design isn't a profession but treated like a hobby anyone can learn and do by just picking up a book. Which is a huge misconception.

I'm not surprised half don't even have the budget but demand for the world.

The reason for wanting everything (without considering budget) is the lack of education and the misconception made by others in the industry. And because we can't say "you're just stupid" to a client, we have to try and make it sound we're not lecturing but informing them of the smarter decision.

I never believed a standard monthly fees is fair. That is why for me, I'd rather just per hour.

Urm, this is going to be a chicken and egg story...seriously. Look at it both sides too.

If the marketing didn't have a designer, the customers would be staring at something only a marketing person would understand or wouldn't catch the attention of the customer for that matter.

If the designer didn't have a marketing person, then the customer may go "ooo...aaaa" but in the end not take any action from the advertisement itself.

Hence, this is a chicken and egg story. So, I'd just quit it and instead provide the necessary advice then to say who wins between David and goliath.

My take in this matter; yes, most designers do not know how to run a marketing campaign. They are trained in design after all and not on business subjects. And a marketing person can beautify his sales presentation up but when it doesn't achieve the required impact without the necessary tools/designs than the client won't be happy as well. And to be honest, as the world unravels more we'll need more creative heads soon (not just designers think creatively). So it's a tie!

p/s: Just read your extended reply and I disagree not all business need a website. You know what many corporates nowadays are thinking. If you don't have a website, your company is a 'nobody'. If you were speaking to an international client and they were looking at your business card which then leads to the question, "I noticed you don't have a website...how come?" Then what'll the person say, "Because my business doesn't need one.." ?

A website is a necessary business presence for any corporate entity today. If they don't have a website, they may have a blog. If they don't have a blog, they'd be using Facebook or other online tools hosted in...a website. That said, the generation is adopting to the Internet so where would a business be without a website in future is what I would ask.

M1X:
You mentioned AfterEffects, I'd presume it's something to do with the Flash presentation later. I think even gaming clan websites should be treated as any other commercial corporate work. The clan is like the employees and the manager is like the director. So...same-same lor.

This post has been edited by etsuko: Sep 21 2007, 09:39 PM

I was having a conversation with an 'old timer' yesterday but he's pretty in tune with the market as well. And though he may be old, he too faces the same problem as us when presenting to even 'older timers'.

Our business culture for a fact still is traditional. You need a portfolio which has familiar names than what looks good. Even if you did a few 'crap' work for a big name, they'll still respect you for it. Dumb idea but that's how it still it here especially if you work with large to MNC companies.

CMSes are eliminating the need for webmasters. However, companies do not understand the need to 'pay extra' for the CMS as well. In other words, webmasters are still at the advantage. Out of 5 clients I propose to do a CMS, only 1-1.5 gets it. The rest just don't want to spend the money.

And speaking about measuring a website's value either in design or information architecture to marketing, companies will not care about your words or presentation unless it has proven figures. That's another problem with the business culture here.

Worst of all, we haven't even begun speaking about what goldie mentioned. Clients want everything under the sun but all you get is a pail of water to last long enough.

IMHO, until our business culture is lead by the tech-savvy generation (not the ones see ooh ahhh) then I think all IT will be smooth sailing. Then who knows, we might catch up with China or Australia.

*grin* I charge more than that.. but of course, they're not based on a template.

I think RM250 is justifiable because you have to design and install the thing in as well. So go with RM250 from my opinion.

1. At the moment, for me - nope. Simple reason is that it isn't too difficult to do it. Within 15 minutes I can get it done so unfair to charge them for this. I'll just consider it as a 'service'. In future...different maybe.

2. They will have very limited options. Either they find you again or they have an in-house tech to do it for them. If they want maintenance to be done by the designer, some do a retainer contract (monthly) but I find that unfair and some do an hourly thing. I do an hourly thing because I understand clients don't have updates every day.

p/s: Retainer contracts has it's many advantages yet disadvantages so have to plan it out accordingly. Especially if you want it to be a balanced workload between client and provider.

We should have a law soon that all government websites should be Accessibility compliant. At the moment, they're all running on TABLES

firefyre:
you wanna share what company is it you own? i'm sure a number of graduates here may want to apply for a position.

selling your service, yes. being honest about it, very important - at least to me. i know of some who can open their mouth and sell the world but they oversell to the client and later not providing the necessary standard.

my way has always been to charge on the requirements and not to solely base my price on the client or how much I can get away with it. i believe in karma that if you do good unto others than good will come to you. plus, i'm not aiming to be a millionaire by running a web design company. my goal is to provide better professional websites and to show graduates there is a career in web design.

i'll let others brag about their million-dollar success all they want. all I want are customers who value you for your service and not for what you can provide to them by the tip of your tongue.

and speaking of students who charges a low fee, they can't help it if they want to get the job - which doesn't come by often. if anyone here thinks it's easy to price yourself like an agency when you're a student...share that idea or what you use to tell the clients and see if others find it workable.

the business culture in Malaysia may still be conservative but by God, the old 'fools' will not be there forever.

The standards thing wasn't web standards. It's the effectiveness and results gained from the price you have quoted. Just like why your client came back to you in the end - or another if they had one more contractor.

I think the price thing (not charging enough doesn't project confidence) seriously depends on which market segment you are targeting. Different market segments see you differently. So yeah, probably mine and yours is different at the moment.

After-sales service - a better antonym for website maintenance. LOL! Anyway, the maintenance is something I price a lot differently than most of the market still do. Retainer contracts are so dead - again depending on the market you have approached. Bigger companies = constant updates = find better value and reliability in retainer contracts. Small companies = less to no updates = waste money on contracts.

LOL! Teammates which bombard you with that plainly demos how they wanna experiment and what they feel is great, may be too for a client.

It's not just e-commerce. Even website effectiveness here isn't accepted well because many still don't understand the underlying value of the website. To them, it's just an online brochure (and some just literally scan them) or some just take it as just a necessity coz their competitors have them.

In other words, their thinking "because they have...we also have lor.." then later approach them with the quotation "wah, you mean this much ar...can lower la - excuses inserted here".

So typical.. sigh..

Well, the free options are to see other people's website or to visit color palette website. Just do a Google on it.

The other way is to purchase color programs like www.colorschemer.com

But in the end, you'll still need some color theory before understanding what colors are suitable and what are not.

There is no standard for price list for design as mentioned by cypher. There never will be in Malaysia because everyone is too afraid of not getting the job.

The hosting and registration is up to you to decide. Do your research and decide on the price which is right for you or your company.

Approach an experienced person and it's more costly but they do it perfectly. Approach a cheap alternative and they'll rip the design, get it done quick and be over with it. No followups and etc.

The price is never right.

It really depends on who you're targeting, experience and portfolio.

It's kinda like saying if you were Giorgio Armani then you could ask for any fee...because your clientele are those with money.

I wouldn't say inexperienced per say. Probably they just want to do quick jobs and bank on volume. Their only way for earning quick cash and a reasonable amount within a short period of time. Most likely, they take a pre-made theme then alter the graphics and their done. 5 of these jobs and they already made RM1000 pocket money.

Just depends how smart or gullible is the client for the fee they are charging.

Funny thing is its done in Wordpress so aren't they trained to update it themselves?

How you could proceed is to inform them you're unable to commit additional time to their project on the fly. Then explain to them you now have an implemented hourly rate or maintenance contract they could sign with you if they'd still like you to help them update their website. Otherwise, tell them you'll charge then $$$ to train someone on their side to update it.

Honestly, we all used to do what you did but there'd come a time you have to rise up to a higher level.

Tell them you'll sell it for RM1500 but you retain the rights to the application.

Therefore, it allows you to work on the same application in future to produce something better.

Don't use Dreamweaver. Don't use Go Live. Don't use Fireworks. All hard coded over here at Simpleet.

Except for those times when you have a super duper long schedule of tables then Dreamweaver comes in handy. ROFL!

And it isn't the software which defines your rates. It's yourself, the company, the employees and etc.

Well, being a company I normally tell the clients an hourly rate.

But the norm practice of others is a Service Level Agreement (SLA) which lists the:
1. Types of changes allowed.
2. Number of changes.
3. Turnaround time.
4. Terms/Conditions.
5. Signatures/Chops.