I'm not going to touch on photography and those sites selling them because that can be a whole topic of its own.

However, because my focus is web that's why I'd like to try my best in explaining why some people charge more and they get it for all their worth. Not to mention, it's true half the time in Malaysia you pay peanuts to most people you'll only a monkey's work. I'd also like to say this debate gives me great practice as influential power when I try to convince and instil confidence of clients in me in future. So thank you for such a great debate started.

Okie, let's take your example of a person who charges you RM2000 (Mr A) and another at RM200 (Mr B) for a personal Flash site. Let's also assume both of these are legit and honest people who love what they do. Let's also consider the fact that you're a designer (Mr C) who is hiring another designer to help you do something.

Mr A has 10 years experience and he's a qualified Art Director. So to him, he charges you by the experience and the knowledge he has to share with you on the best action to take for your personal Flash site. He's been in the field and he's been through it all.

Mr B is only a student or a fresh graduate trying to break into the business. He knows that if he charges too high, he won't get the job. And what if he doesn't, no money to eat, no money for rent and etc. Mr B outperforms Mr A in terms of the new ideas he's seen by surfing around more and knows how to impress you by implementing those new funky type stuff.

Now, here's the finale. If you're a designer and you hire designers to help you design something, you'll never be 100% satisfied with what that designer has to offer because your vision isn't aligned with his. Mr B impresses you more because he's cheap and he so calls 'outperforms' Mr A. As for Mr A, well, to him is that he'll most likely take it as not a lost but a win in relief that he doesn't have to handle a case where he's not appreciated.

And all of this happens even when we're assuming both Mr A and B are legit and honest business people.

I can tell you now that some agencies who quote clients even from the government are over pricey. But why do these government clients give in and throw money at these unworthy agencies. I wish I knew. I can only assume because they've won the heart of the client with suggestions and marketing.

When I was a fresh grad, I asked the same question as you at one point. I asked why and how can agencies get so much money from clients and why clients don't mind spending. Well, through what I've learned and heard from colleagues:
1. Clients demand quality and results.
2. Clients trust a brand than a price.
3. Clients listen to their friends.
4. Clients know what its like to run a company with a workforce.
5. And other things I'm still learning..

I'm getting tired of explaining this issue because it feels like website design really doesn't have an understood value in Malaysia. It's getting tiresome that I'm feeling more like I'm preaching for you to consider than to understand the quotation from all aspects and not just the design or the value.

So let me end this long entry with a breakdown of costs some companies take to survive..
1. Pay company fees (SDN BHD, annual and monthly fees) - 2300-5k+
2. Company office rent (per month) - 2500-5k+ depending on size
3. Company materials (stationary) - 1000 per month
4. Company equipment (software/hardware) - 10k a year (if there are 10-15 workers)
5. Company employees (assume each 1.5k and 10 people) - 15000 per month
6. Comapny misc expenses (petrol..etc) - 1-5k per month

If you do the maths, you can see why an agency will quote clients at a much higher price. The reason some are higher or lower depends on the risk, the value and the company they are handling.

If a freelancer earns RM4000 for each project, it could be because he's got what clients want and believe. If he only charges a client RM200, several things can occur on its own that I don't want to touch.

I'm not going to tell you the peanuts proverb but I'm going to ask you to try and look at this from different angles, views and possibilities on why people charge the way they charge and how come they can charge the way they charge.

Every business runs on a different strategy.

Sorry for such a long and tiresome post everyone.

No worries. I'm actually trying to get Wiley Chin from XiMNet to guest write an article for me about what she thinks of this whole issue. Then i'll put in on my blog.

Hope she churn an article out.

ahh.. that makes more sense since you're refering to the underpaid and overworked issue. well, some believe they need to start somewhere. get a foot in the industry first and make some 'friends'. but if you're a son of a Datuk or someone who's got loads of contacts then all you need to do is sell and market. I on the other hand took the brave door and ventured even without waiting for 5 years experience in the industry. shhh...I didn't say that. lol

urm, i don't think all clients believe that at a higher price they get more quality nowadays especially if you're pitching for a website project. most clients (SMBs) in Malaysia who want a website don't budget well enough for it. they undervalue website design just like brochure design when they approach the specialized company.

however, I don't blame them since we don't have quality control for these things and as we've actually talked bout it before; some people just are able to sell. there isn't really a method to stopping this..maybe in future.

the only way clients now learn (which I hope they do) of the difference is through their own experiences and stories they hear from their friends who've hired other people to do their website.

Maybe I should name my business Mackers.. LOL!

anyway, just think of it as prices are justified for various reasons.

i comment alot about on other companies quotations if my client tells them to me and I'll ask if they offer what we offer.

and here's the thing, clients will say "yes, they offer that too." but whether they understand the difference is a different thing not to mention some clients just say that for you to lower the price. LOL!

by any chance can the Moderator please merge this thread into the Web Design is Business thread somewhere behind there.. LOL

My dear karen..

There is no standard charges for website design and development.

As your company grows, you need to quote higher. As your workload increases, you need to quote higher.

Market price is done via research from my experience. What I can tell you through observation in this forum is..

Design Students > RM25-100 per page

Design/Programming Graduates > RM50-200 per page

Hobby-ist > RM25-50 per page

Professionals (Small-Medium Business) > RM50-250+ per page

Professionals (Medium-Large Business) > RM250-RM500+ per page

The price is affected by a lot of things from traveling to email/calls to design/development and etc. So in order for you to find your price, you need to be honest and do the math of your business.

Just know this, once you start low you'll never get higher without some work.

To simplify an answer to your question..

2k plus - you're alone or have 1 partner..

5k plus - you have a company, you have 2-3 additional members and you service clients, you do marketing..

10k plus - you're a large company, you have 10 employees or more, you do marketing, you target large corporations or multi-national accounts..

but remember, pricing yourself requires honesty and maths.. not to mention the understanding of the culture and the business in Malaysia because they're all cheapskates and many need to be educated about the value good website design and development would bring to their business..

Cheers.

This post has been edited by etsuko: Jan 25 2007, 11:01 PM

And by that explanation and phrase is how you can actually charge clients 10k and above.

but still.. think of your target market because different market segments have different spending power on their website.

and as mentioned one of the culture here is shared with Singaporeans; Kiasu mentality. they want everything for almost nothing in order to get back more than everything.

p/s: if your client doesn't see physical proof of your work process and the results, they won't trust whatever you say no matter how well you say it. LOL!

so FREELANCERS are you LISTENING?!

Spend a meager RM100 annually for a domain (your name is best) and a hosting account and get your portfolio up. It doesn't have to be stupendous but a simple design and layout would suffice. After all, they are after your portfolio and not you.

cheers.

Future - its up to you because you make your future.

I believe education comes from an extent. It's not like you were a baby and suddenly noticed; hey, these are what my two joints below my waist are for..*walks*

Customers get confidence in you from:
1. Your impression & personality
2. Your knowledge
3. Your portfolio
4. Your ideas
5. Your added value

That's the whole process of finding a customer, nailing the project, doing it and maintaining it.

The requirements in Malaysia are never clear because many companies still do not take a Web Designer as a profession but a job that is just to design. In other words, a graphic designer.

My requirements when hiring a web designer are:
1. Your impression
2. Your portfolio
3. Your knowledge (xHTML & CSS is a must - additional Javascript and PHP are advantages)
4. Your goal and principles

In the US, the requirements are different and I've noticed different companies have different requirements of their designer and their developer. So that's to say, there isn't really a standard but the minimum I know is you must have the understanding of web standards and xHTML/CSS.

Web designing is not a lucrative career (well, not yet.) but I always feel you live a happier life doing what you love.

This thread is pinned not for seeking freelancers so please keep this clean.

Mod, if possible - move to Job Enlistments or create new topic under Arts & Design.

Thanks.

AD skills? Advanced Diploma?

Well, using Frontpage is 1 thing. Building a website so that it helps generate more business to a company is another. There are numerous vendors around who offer cheap e-commerce packages. Some as low as even RM1500-2000 inclusive of a domain and hosting which to me is mad.

The Malaysia market is huge however like in business, you need to know your market segment and are you targeting quantity or quality.

As to how long you will take to learn the whole e-commerce thing, it depends on you and how far do you want to go. Is it inclusive of design? Is it with the sales? Is it including marketing? Is it also to know programming?

Each of this topic covers a lot of ground so it really depends on you.

Well, if you're passionate about this. You should persevere until there is no hope and you realize you'll end up dying than living. Some give up easily because they imagine earning RM10k+ per month easy doing the business. But in whatever business, there's a high and low season.
Me and my team have grown past that. We've politely informed many clients our services do not meet their budget or if they don't reply to us, we would follow up and get an answer our prices are too high. Well, it doesn't really matter to us because that goes to show they weren't our target market.

Just going to add a little bit of my own thoughts..

Well, I always tell my team to run an open book policy. If we can't do it, we'll admit it but of course not say the taboo - it's impossible. If we need time to do it, it's best to bring forth before signing on the agreed proposed timeline.

In Malaysia, we've alot of qualified designers but very few designers with usability or web standard minded practitioners. It's not difficult to learn it and like Steve Krugg says, it's really common sense.

But I think the challenge in this business here in Malaysia is do you do it to satisfy the client and close the project or to improve the level of website quality and value in Malaysia.

M1X, Flash is over rated. It's entertaining but it still lies in what your website is for. If it's like like some MTV sorta thing then maybe it's beneficial to be in Flash. Else, just stick to good ol static stuff with a great design and layout.

ronasdfghjklzxc, if you're a student - max 1000. if you're a freelancer, you could aim for 1500 and above. if you're a company, well that's a different story.

from my point of view, the website fails terribly because the company looks as though:
1. Selling chiqs.
2. Racing.
3. Car modifications.
4. Car tinting.

If you noticed the order of things, it's what I perceived the company's website to be doing instead of straight away understanding they do car tinting.

If it's your client, recommend something better to them with a focused direction.

Thank you for the compliment and support.

As for the kedaisaya, well - I think it needs an interface upgrade. Badly.

Many sites do - big or small. From personal websites to medium sized like Lelong to even giants like eBay.

The main difference is that eBay has a team to improve stuff like Google.

Medium and smaller all don't really care about the information engineering and just want something to look good.

From a designer's POV, web 2.0 works because it's made to be very easy and simple. You don't have to pause for a minute to know what they do or what it's for. You will just know.

In terms of the cost, here in Malaysia there isn't a difference. They just know how to say "I want it to look web 2.0" without even knowing what is it. pfft...

For us at Simpleet, the product is the overall website from interface to the backend.

Oh, not forgetting we make websites for users.

Nope.. Websites Made Simple was my own so-called company name which I freelance under and used mainly as a blog.

Simpleet Solutions is my registered company with my partner (which most in Codemasters may know)

Freelancers can't charge overly expensive unless:

1. You have a strong portfolio / experience / clients
2. You get clients who are gullible
3. You get clients who are lazy (but rich)
4. You get projects without any competitors
5. You are a self-professed marketing person

Sole-proprietor / Partnership companies can:

1. Charge slightly higher
2. Be branded as a professional agency
3. Be more formal in documentation
4. Instill a better belief in reliability to a client

Sendirian Berhad (Private Limited) companies can:

1. Charge higher than slightly
2. Better chances in Government / MNC projects
3. Cost a lot more to maintain

My advice is start freelancing. If you want to be more professional, register a sole-proprietor. I got someone who can help you do it if you want. But if you register, take note you'll have to think about other stuff like accounting and personal taxes later.

Your dream is to be a web designer or to head a web design agency. They are 2 different things.

As for what coding you need..yes, you can master all those but you will need help later on as well. So it's better if you decided what you want to focus on more. Web or Software or Presentation or etc.

Anyway, when you say master...how do you know if you have 'mastered' it?

I know some people who have Masters in Computer Science or something alike but don't exactly program pretty.

Anyway, before you venture further..answer 1 important question.

Can you sustain 4-6 months without a salary for the first year?

This post has been edited by etsuko: Jul 29 2007, 11:08 PM

Well, that's how it is when you're a freelancer.

But even if you're a registered company, you'll still come across clients who've you been traveling far enough to their office constantly to pitch but later they'll tell you:

1. We'll / We're think-ing about it.
2. We don't have the budget.
3. We don't have the time.
4. We found someone else.

Number 4 as in Chinese 'die' is still the worst and the one I always dread. But what to do, we don't charge clients for proposals like how some other western companies do.

ROFL! that too...

But I've not come across a client who's told me that lor..

If we present the proposal and they don't do it, they'll say one of the other 4.

So lucky me i guess..

I never visited for awhile suddenly so many things to comment.
RM500 - Student
RM1000 - 1500 - Fresh Graduate (Freelancer)
RM2000 - 4000 - Small company

The charges above have no Flash. Reason is simple - the Flash isn't helping bring them business anyway.

There isn't a standard rate. As you view from the charges above, a student could charge much lower than that. I believe the value of the project should be defined by a customer from the portfolio and provider.

Most likely the same charges as I mentioned above.

Same price for Student and Freelancer, less RM500-1000 for a small company.

Aesthetic Rating : 5

Usability Rating : 3

Just a blog or inclusive of the website..?

It's pretty much there but professional/commercial design hasn't reached its peak yet because:
1. Corporate blogging is new.
2. Very few do Internet advertising.
3. Website value is still lower than average.
4. Commercial agencies in Malaysia do NOT know how to handle blogging well. Only a handful do.

The best method in charging semi-pro to commercial prices is by providing a website utilizing the blog publishing system. These systems are evolving into CMSes therefore they can not maintain websites as well as blogs. However, they are still not as good as sole CMSes or websites.

Sounds like just a blog design project.

Well, for a student...I would say RM250-500, freelance 500++1000...pro / small company 1000++

but of course, prices is judged by several factors like portfolio, experience, marketing and etc...so these are standard industry rates.

This post has been edited by etsuko: Aug 25 2007, 11:36 PM