Now if you have done that, can I ask u to tell me why you can accept an unrefined segmentation term you can call F>E>D>C>B>A

But a more refined such as below is unacceptable to you?
http://automotivebase.blogspot.com/2012/11...cation.html?m=1

Also, I appreciate everyone's enthusiasm in this topic discussion but today is my family out day. And I don't intend/want to keep reading from my mobile. One need to lead a balance life. In case I am not replying to all in time, please bare with me. Thanks

lol
u are cornered and trying to deflect...


dont worry...
if u ask, i can teach u more about automotive industry as a whole....

i am amazed how strong is the old habit of jumping into conclusion can be for somebody

if you would look at these 2 links that i have asked

did you even spot some of the mistakes
http://www.autotrends.org/segments/c-segment/
http://www.autotrends.org/2010/05/30/vehic...t-does-it-mean/

by same source!
Jetta was quoted as segment C in first
but quoted as segment D in second link along with Mercedes C class, can you imagine, and it added a statement like below:
E Segment and F Segment — The differences between E-segment and F-segment cars is not always clear. In fact, both are for full size models.

I have seen how mistake of Golf being quoted as segment B together with Fiesta

http://www.autotrends.org/segments/b-segment/
even in this Forum, i have seen many struggled with A & B differentiation,
and if i ask Mitsubishi Mirage is which segment, what 'd your answer? how about your all familiar Perodua Myvi. what segment it belongs?

See the problem with segmentation thinking?

that is why i say the below is a much refined classification
http://automotivebase.blogspot.com/2012/11...cation.html?m=1

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: Nov 10 2013, 09:41 AM

now if you now follow the logic

and look at class instead of segment
you will find it is quite well defined

let's go at it one by one

Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI)

HLDI takes into account a combination of both vehicle size and other characteristics of the vehicle, with all the cars that do not meet the definition of a "sport" or "luxury", are classified in base and vehicle length and pitch.

so this is their class table


peugeot 408 with length 468 cm AND w/base 271cm = Midsize
VW Jetta with length 464.4cm AND w/base 265.1 cm due to w/base can only be considered Small

Next

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) distinguishes vehicles in classes for the empty weight of the vehicle with standard equipment including the maximum capacity of fuel, oil, coolant and air conditioning, if equipped.

and here is the table



In Malaysia both Jetta & 408 curb weight is above 1400 kg which is within 1360 kg to 1588 kg range, so both in class 'Passenger cars: medium"
but i must add, due to Jetta or rather Sagitar in China having 4 trimming levels, Jetta/Sagitar in china cub weight can go as low as 1290-1350 kg which will makes it actually passenger: compact class, only the top trim in China gives curb weight of 1380 kg

Another classification scheme of the vehicle has been developed by the Federal Highway Administration of the United States for the automatic calculation of toll road usage. There are two broad categories depending on whether the vehicle carries passengers or freight, with passenger vehicles further subdivided based on the number of axles and the number of units, including both power and trailer units. The United States Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA) has another set of guidelines for the classification that are based on the total number of passengers in the vehicle and cargo space.

here is the table



this is where the large boot space (562 litres), width (1815 mm), height (1525 mm) & wheel base (2710 mm) of 408 gives it mid size class
while Jetta due to smaller boot space (510 litres), width (1778 mm) , height (1482 mm) , & wheel base (2651 mm) makes it ended up at compact class

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: Nov 10 2013, 11:21 AM

and here is another thing to consider

407 commonly specified as segment D/midsize
is 4676 x1811 x1494 w/base 2725mm

compare to
408
is 4680 x1810 x1525 w/base 2710 mm

compare Passat
is 4769 x1820 x1470 w/base 2712 mm

and then you look at Jetta
is 4644 x1778 x1482 w/base 2651 mm

Does it mean anything to you?

You are arguing against someone who is involved in automotive industry and also has strong ties within the industry.

At any rate, while it may be classed as a different segment elsewhere but in Malaysia the 408 is a C segment car, end of story. But I think we're kind of veering off topic right now.

http://www.livelifedrive.com/malaysia/news...ue-in-c-segment

http://mole.my/content/peugeot-408-be-launched-next-week

http://paultan.org/2012/05/21/peugeot-408-...-2-0-at-rm110k/

i had not argue 408 is not c segment

i am only saying in terms of class as in classification, depends on who defines it for what purpose, 408 can be diffrent class then a Jetta

so what if i am arguing with a person who is involved in automotive industry, if he is quick to jump to conclusion before understanding what the perspective say, than he is not that well all round informed

and i seriously do not appreciate his 'i am holier thy thou' attitude

Also, I am in energy industry my self for great deal of my life, does it mean I am smarter/smartest arsed in Energy sector?

Paultan was not from auto industry, but his deep interest in auto industry and his humble demeanour is one of the reason why he is very well regarded, and on and off, he makes mistake and apologize and thanked people for pointing out to him.

I have pointed out that even a very established automag can makes mistake and segmentize car wrongly , what more if it is just a person working in the industry?

with great interest and zeal, anyone can debate, FnF form is such a forum

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: Nov 10 2013, 11:33 AM

u see, first u have to know as i already brought up previously, who originally came out with all this sizing?

it is surely not regulation body, that is for sure.
regulation body needs data from somewhere and wait for it, data source is from car manufacturers..

and by having product positioned in different category in different market, wait for it, u get to skirt around class/categories regulation... oh no, i already mentioned this too...

if u even bother to dig further, u will find some models that is weirdly positioned as lower or higher segments in different market...
why is this so?
i already mentioned too, branding, product positioning etc...

certains market, go find out which, too much spoon-feeding is no good, impose regulation on vehicle exceeding certain CC, emission etc...
so to work around all this, they can bring a product that is higher segment in market A down to a lower segment in market B where regulation on CC, emission etc is more stringent...
why they want to put it as a lower segment? again, branding and product positioning and future roadmap for the particular market...

so if u want to play number and figures... u are just running wiki-based knowledge...

in malaysia, pug branding is positioned lower then the VW and NAZA knows this... why do u think NAZA got the Citroen dealership license?

u are comparing it with china market where jetta is traditionally and always have been a small/compact car...
go look up the history of jetta name in china...

and thats is where i jumped in...

jetta worldwide is known as sagitar in china...

so i correct your misconception and u go haywire after that....

Noted, but he had also on several times pointed out the answer, though not always directly. At the end of the day, it's how they want to market the car and as you have pointed out - the consumer really won't care about such details of whether the class is an A, B, C or D so long as it fulfills their needs, whatever it may be.

Now, the new Altis is now 2700mm length in wheelbase, do we define that as a D segment now? If I'm not mistaken, the current Slyphy is already at that length in its wheelbase. We're arguing over the mere technicalities of what segment the car should be, it's actually quite dry like stale bread, lol. I think we really should drop this and move on to more interesting stuff (eg. that interview article with the 2 PSA CEO).

This post has been edited by zweimmk: Nov 10 2013, 11:42 AM

here is a story about perspective

David came home one day after playing with neigbour Mr. & Mr.s Chin daughter (Kate), telling his mommy how nice the new dinner table Mrs. Chin (their neighbour) and it is in a very nice White colour

His mom ask him, 'why are your spreading lies? the dinner table is Black in colour, and i was there since last week every day chatting with Mrs. Chin and playing even Mahjong on the table.

But David insisted it was White in colour and finally mother was so angry and slap him on the face and ask him to go back to his room

Next day, David's mom went to Mr. Chin house and sat on the table and play Mahjong, and one of the piece fell off

She bent down to pcik up the fallen piece and there it is, the table was white from bottom view and now she realize due to Davids height, all these time, he can only have bottom up view, and the surface underneath is really white

Feeling guilty she came back back to David, gives him a hug and tell him she is sorry.....

Nice story? I hope all who has been following this thread in the back ground quietly loves it. I sure do.

since when segment is defined by wheelbase length?

u better go re-check what u posted...

since u brought china market into the picture, i am bringing in the same but on a more global scale..


so now tell me again, keeping everything into malaysian market only...
408 is which segment/classification?

please do not post some bedtime story...
this is not some childcare subforum...

zweimmk hit the nail home...

on and on agaion, i have been pointing out to you segmantation is not classification

and segmentation is not very refined and define, in fact according to wikipedia (which will sure hit on your bloody sensitive nerve), is this"Vehicle segments in Europe do not have formal characterization or regulations. Models segments tend to be based on comparison to well-known brand models."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_Car_Segment

my pointy is class, class, class!

and it is not talking about whether premium/luxury or not

and because of segmentation shortcoming, using more defined 'class', you can see a very defined outcome

so if really you must, I will write out this is in context,

according to [insert source] standard and definition, 408 is [insert class] class

and according to [insert source] standard and definition, Jetta is [insert class] class

by these very formal and well documented standard and definition, 408 is a class above Jetta

Happy?

no worries...
different word, same meaning...
and again how a product is classified (class, if u may) is the based on the same principle that i am trying to drum home...

but alas...

ah well, in closing...
if one choose to call a plain rock, gold, i can't help it then...

may be you should go back school to improve your English command first , segmentation and classification is the same? LOL

And, while at it, learn manner too

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: Nov 10 2013, 12:33 PM

Some terminologies are used interchangeably.... as rightly pointed out by @kcng and @Zweimmk.
In summary, as malaysian market goes @EnergyAnalyst, your statement and arguments that Jetta is incomparable to 408 is unconvincing and potentially harmful. More sinister if such argument is used with the intention to out-qualify the Jetta and mislead potential buyers.

My intention is not to mislead, but to challenge conventional thinking.

Why we at malaysia must subscribed only to European segmentation thinking?

It is flawed.

Why not think about alternatives , better one? american , Chinese institutional classification methods ? If you ask why them? I would say why not? These 2 markets are the biggest 2 in the world

In numerical terms, these 2 alone are 30 mil car market. More than 5 times of combining all European market

But if all said and done, like some of the articles , even Peugeot call 408 a segment C that will redefine the c segment. I would propose why redefine something that is ill defined

Seriously folks European segmentation is subjective at best.

Is it not time we look at something better?