There is a general belief by some people that governments around the world are conspiring against gold buyers. Personally, I think those theories are hogwash but regardless of whether they have any basis in reality, none of it is relevant to Genneva as it only applies to bona-fide gold traders.

Frankly, answers like this are exactly why I have no sympathy for the consultants. When it comes time for BNM to deny the consultants their share of the recovery, there will be much rejoicing and schadenfreude.

No offense, but what purpose would that serve aside from satisfying the curiosity of a bunch of nosy busybodies? Who cares what the public interprets? Only the court needs to know the specifics.

It will be revealed in due time. For now, discretion needs to be exercised as those firms need to be able to do their job without their staff being hassled or threatened.

True, but revealing all the details can complicate the court case as well as the recovery of funds and assets. Note that US courts hushed up the details regarding Madoff's overseas funds as they didn't want foreign govts to seize them.

As for the approximate, I see no problem with rounding the figure to make a general report. Remember that the decimal is in kilogram. What were you expecting? The exact weight in gram? Why not milligram too? Heck, since we're going into that amount of detail, why not go lower and have it in nanograms or picograms?

Because it might trigger unnecessary panic and speculation? Why does the public need an exact breakdown? That information is only relevant to the court, as well as to the victims involved in order to recover their monies. It is not necessary to provide full public disclosure unless the case involves public funds. Genneva is a private investment. I would say that protecting a person's right to privacy is one aspect of it.

And yes, the reason why you don't reveal everything just yet is so that the perpetrators have less chance to cover their tracks. Suppose BNM disclosed the full account of their investigations so far. The directors of these companies will know which of their accounts are still hidden and make an effort to hide their monies even further. Accounts that are exposed, they might try to destroy the evidence to make prosecution difficult.

Let's say there is a top triad boss being implicated for murder. Will you reveal the identity of the primary witness, or will you hide him in a safe location until the trial? Same logic applied here.

This post has been edited by arubin: Nov 6 2012, 12:00 PM

It is possible that there are some accounts are merely being monitored instead of being frozen due to insufficient evidence, but you don't want them to know that they are being watched. Also, when it comes to foreign-based accounts, BNM has no authority. It all depends on what treaties we have with that country.

I hear the Thai royal family invested big time in Genneva. This is merely speculation, but assuming Genneva hid some of their monies in a Thai account, the Thai govt might decide to confiscate the account to compensate their own monarchy first. Better for BNM to keep mum and try to find some way to bring the money back instead.

That's why I say that full disclosure is not always to everyone's best interest.

Can we not make weird comparisons here please? You are objectifying women for one. PRO are assets?

If he is smart, he will STFU and lay low. The law does not allow anyone to profit from scams and ponzi schemes. If the court can trace him down, he will be forced to hand back the money. All down to whether GM maintained records about him or not.

Has anyone actually done the actual maths though? When it was announced that the total investment in Genneva could add up to 10 billion, what exactly does it mean? Is that the total value of gold 'sold' by Genneva?

In all fairness, some of the folks on GMS do have a point when they state that the Genneva's total assets does not need to add up to the total value of gold traded. After all, the company does have to source the bullion from somewhere and pay for it. Let's make some simple assumptions; that Genneva delivers its gold at point of purchase and it purchases at spot price. Their markup has been calculated to be 20% above spot. So if Genneva's transactions added up to 10 billion, by rights it should have generated 2 billion worth of profits although this does not take into account heebah payments and buybacks.

So yeah, expecting Genneva to have RM10 billion worth of assets is actually a false assumption unless the company also has 10 billion worth of liabilities (eg. has not paid gold suppliers).

However, the question is - how much, roughly, is Genneva supposed to have in assets and liabilities if it has been conducting its business legitimately. Assuming it is doing nothing illegal, has delivered all its gold, etc etc. How does it compare with the company's current book value? At least I believe that a basis of comparison is important.

This is the last time I am going to entertain these questions as I do think you are starting to troll by repeating them endlessly.

1. Again, why is it so important that you know the exact figure and amount from each company? Whatever can be made public knowledge will be done so in due time. The investigation is still on-going. If you really want to know how much was seized, go pester the directors of the companies instead. They have to sign off on whatever has been taken from their offices during the raid. Note that they have chosen to stay silent on this issue as well.

FYI, BNM have very exacting standards when it comes to reporting and audits. You sound like you perceive BNM to not care about details. You are wrong. My personal experience with them is they are not the sort to 'close one eye', so to speak. If any of their financial reports are unbalanced by even a single cent, they will get to the bottom of it. Anyone who has had to work as a system vendor for BNM will tell you that it is a very high pressure job.

2. After the investigation has completed. Not before. As I've said, to preserve privacy and more importantly - impartiality. Are you aware that anyone who works in the banking and finance industry have to sign confidentiality clauses? As part of the audit process, staff have to attend regular anti-corruption and secrecy workshops? Why do you think all that is in place?

BNM staff are not part of the audit as it can be claimed that they are not impartial. International accounting firms are supposed to be, and anonymity plus secrecy is required to preserve their impartiality. If you find this concept difficult to understand, I suggest you never take up a job in the sectors of accounting, banking, and finance.

3. Investigations should take as much time as is required to sift through all the evidence - especially since BNM has stated that these companies practice slip-shod bookkeeping. Do you know how difficult it is to sort that shit out?

Those GMS folks are not doing anything, that's why. They keep talking about marching but no one has the guts to act on it. All they are doing right now is trolling BNM and Najib's facebook pages.

Yeah, why the heck is the US election being brought up here?

I won't hold my breath. This Matthew EE is the guy who calculated that Genneva injects RM900 million into the economy every month no thanks to its heebah. This is based on monthly payout of RM150 million multiplied 6 times.

LOL I was only aware of Genneva when it blew up (I seem to project an anti-scam aura) so I am actually kinda disappointed that I didn't get to debate Pat a bit in V1. That thread is comedy gold though.

But what is a reasonable time frame? For the Madoff case, I think it took about 3 years for the trustee to clawback all the funds and calculate the claims.

These GMS folks didn't get heebah for only a month and many of them claim to be in financial distress already.

BNM has also stated that these companies practiced shoddy bookkeeping which further complicates matters. So did Madoff, for that matter, which is why it took that long.

GMS want their gold delivered now, at the very least. They also want their heebah and commissions. For some reason, they think it is their right, and that it is a reasonable request. However, who's claim is BNM supposed to honor?

Consider the gold. Genneva claimed that it had 200kg of gold raided by itself, yet the total gold taken from all the companies adds up to only ~142.7kg, of which we don't know how much is Genneva's. How to distribute? Who gets to claim first?

What about the monies? There's only ~RM101.92million, again from all 4 companies and we don't know what percentage is Genneva's. Matthew Ee claims that RM150 million worth of heebah is paid out by Genneva every month...uh oh...see the problem here?

So no, no one is getting their money and gold anytime soon even if the courts might allow it. BNM has to sort through the mess, figure out how much is lost and work out what is a fair claim for each customer.

Oh dear, than no one is getting any money or gold for a loooong while.

Insider info? Its a suggestion posted on the GMS Facebook page. The event is on the 14th which would be next Weds.

Sasana Kijang is BNM's spanking new office building located just across the street from the Tunku Abdul Rahman memorial. Its a quiet and secluded little place. Very nice architecture. It also hosts a museum that is open to the public.

This would be interesting. They are planning to gather at the open space in front of the building. The police generally do not allow people to loiter there - especially if any VIPs are expected. Yup, police. Because its BNM, the police themselves patrol the bank instead of some security guard who only have the authority to throw you out of the building. When they tell you to get lost, you'd better do so or well...Bukit Aman is nearby.

However, I do believe that they are welcome to go sit in the cafeteria and have some RM2.50 cafe lattes. They'll have to register as visitors though which means the police are going to take their details down, ehehe.

Best article ever when it comes to advice for Gennevarians (as they call themselves).

Of course, we all know they are going to ignore it. We've attempted to push them in those directions so far. March somewhere! Sue someone! Seek backup from the your VIPs! What's stopping you people?

Pat Lu actually. She's keeping them all on a tight leash. They seem to be chaffing though lol.

Some of them are spamming the FB page of UN HQ as well.

https://www.facebook.com/unheadquarters

Memalukan negara saja.

I saw that post too. Frankly, how it got stolen is an interesting insight into her personality. Apparently, someone pointed out a wad of bills at her feet at a restaurant so she bent down to collect it as she thought it might be hers. When she got back up, her phone wad gone.

When you go for quick money that comes from nowhere, you lose something of more value. Sounds familiar? Hmm...

Very informative. Thanks for sharing. I also found this article relating to PiPs that I think also applies to the GMS folks.

http://www.fraudguides.com/pips_investment_scam.asp


Hmm, where have we seen that happening before recently...

Those who have not had the benefit of higher education are often aware of their own weaknesses and are therefore willing to admit they might be wrong and seek out advice from others.

I would say in this case, over-confidence in their own judgement is a contributing factor to why they remain so blinded. They think they are smarter than everyone else who have to make do with a mere 3% p.a. interest so they believe that our opinion is not worth listening to.

Ah well, we're not the ones in a financial quandary right now.