/popcorn.

Just to steer the spirited discussion you guys sem to be having here,

Littlelucky, be aware that you're posting in the b&b section of the forums. Yan as well.

The cold hard fact is that by posting here we are not talking about the environment, it shouldn't be the main point. Bodybuilding is.

Added to the fact that solid food, mainly meat should be your main source of protein, being vegan totally defeats the purpose.

Though you can still do well with a vegan diet, can you excel in the field? Can you do it without supplements?

Hi mikehuan, thanks for the reminder. I'm also aware the the b&b section falls under the category of fitness and health too, and which health is one of the points discussed as well.

There are vegetarians/vegans who have excelled in their field. Here are a few:

Fauja Singh
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/16/f..._n_1014670.html

Patrik Baboumian
http://www.armenian-viking.com/
http://mfablog.org/2011/08/vegetarian-crow...ongest-man.html

There's more, but these are the ones on my mind now. In fact, one of the two popular tennis player sisters (I can't recall their names now), just recently went veg.

With or without supplements, will depend on that individual and his belief/research. A body builder friend of mine (not vegetarian/vegan, he eats meat) had cancer and he told me his doctor blamed it on his supplements.

This post has been edited by littlelucky: Aug 16 2012, 02:18 PM

Regardless of your friend. You didn't answer the question. Can you get you protein quota for growth without protein shakes, or not?

I'm posting from my phone so I'll respond to the other points later

lesse, lets slowly dissect your wall of trash rage.

I am quite interested how you came out with the fact i don't read for knowledge, if i dont read to study the basics of agriculture, or heck even english, i wouldnt be posting here now am i? this is abit funny lol.

so you saying:"I can't be experiencing everything but that doesn't mean I'm wrong just cos I don't have that experience". Does that mean you are correct when you are ALREADY inexperienced compared to someone EXPERIENCED with ON HANDS field work on agriculture works for couple of years?

you said:"two different people doing the same thing may experience different results. After all, you cannot be two different person, since you're only you". so you mean us ppl that are in the argriculture field are consist of one body of thought alone when we plant and source for several farms with a decade plus history track records of supplying vegetation to the mass?

you said:"those 4 elements can and have been done, proven time and again by many vegetarians and vegans all over the world, including 2 personal friends of mine who are body builders. Sure, it may not work for everyone". So you are suggesting that something that MIGHT NOT work for everyone is a trustable source of diet plan for the public? compared to something that is a CONFIRMED proven methology? actually i dont think you even read and understand how the 4 elements work anyways LOL! ill list em here again for u to figure that one out and EXPLAIN FURTHER how your 2 friends achieve:
1.comparison between bodybuilding methods
2.cost effectiveness between both methods
3.the effect of it on the enviroment
4.health risks
i will await your answer on this 4 elements on how your 2 pals achieve those, i dont need "stories" i need solid proof.

you said:"shows the level of research you have done yourself. Raising animals for human consumption require way more land than vegetation for human consumption and no, pesticides do not help you get beautiful leaves...it just keeps the pests away and sometimes, they even fail in that too". The only method without using pesticides to get "nice" vegetables are Hydroponics, which isint popular and not adapatable for MASSIVE production for MASS HUMAN CONSUMPTION due to the obvious. Pesticides and fetilization(which saves over 90% of harvest) over each harvest for GROUND based vegetation is still needed to maintain that AMOUNT of harvest for mass consumption, geddit? so one might say:OOOHH WE FEED ANIMALS VEGE TOO THEY EATING OUT VEGE! which is WRONG FOOL! Different types of livestock consumes different types of FODDER! what is FODDER? they are excess materials of harvest that is used to feed livestocks, other types of feed for particalar types of livestock are still harvested to feed, BUT they are far more easy to maintain AND reproduce due to the types of plant they are, for instance hay. try planting a field without pesticides AND proper nettings/human interference, you will get shitty harvest, that is why ORGANIC vegetables are so expensive and produce lesser harvest as the effort to produce them is at least FIVE fold or more compared to normal vegetation production. so compare a protien worth pound of meat, how much vegetable sourced protien is required to meet up to it? with the amount of resources and time to produce both, simple math, go figure.

the 2nd last paragraph which i didnt rly bother to dissect since its the essense of your entire trash rage post sums up how bitter you are towards the rejection your recieved from Darklight at Facebook, he didnt need to ask us to "bully" this thread, if he wanted to bully someone, he alone would had raped the butthole off the dude he wanted to bully np without my help. What im really posting here for is, im a strict vegetarian for 5 years plus, and am still semi vegetarian even now. what ive read is a FARCE here, some vegetarians are a disgrace to share links which they have no bloody idea what it is, you want research? i gave you MY OWN bloody research thru experience, experimentation AND i dont even need someone elses research to link to you. pls dont tell me i dont read, thats some shit a 3 year old tells his friend as a retort.

you said:"he even welcome a discussion of pros and cons". IF he REALLY did welcome discussion, he would had replied my 1st post with proper answers and "his research", not ignoring it, answering "sexual" questions from happy4ever instead.

Anything else you want to say to make yourself a fool?

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Added on August 16, 2012, 2:29 pmthx for pushing this fact obviously for those without logical thinking

some vegetarians ALWAYS forgot to take that part into consideration

the natural resources, extracts and process to produce the supplements/shakes itself consumes far more energy to be cost effective comparitively.

hence on my 1st post ive already stated, 2 protien source comparitively, meat will STILL be the more cost effective one if they know the entire process to produce both.

This post has been edited by The Amateur Working Bee: Aug 16 2012, 02:29 PM

Erm... Perhaps I am responsible with these intertwined endless debate.

[1] First of all, let me explain in mathematics.
"...about two to five times more grain is required to produce the same amount of calories through livestock as through direct grain consumption, according to Rosamond Naylor..."
In other words, 100kcal of meat is actually wasting 200kcal - 500kcal from grain.
Which means, if we can directly consume grain, we are optimizing the resources usage. And it underpinned the argument of environmental issue.

[2] Regarding to protein intake requirement, based on my experience, I only require another 1-2 scoops of whey protein to fulfill my muscle growth and recovery. And I gained 3 kg of lean mass based on grain based diet. Please go to 2nd page to see my staple food. Perhaps I can open a new thread in fitness journal section to share my progression. {my current record: 178cm, 68kg, 12.8% fat}

[3] Last time I was just like everyone, thinking vegan diet is actually a fool to "Health and fitness" route. Until I googled and found out there are many information which I never came across. Please google: "vegan body builder" to find out more!

[4] Finally, its just an exposure to you all with the valuable information. I am not earning a single cent through this. Nothing wrong about sharing knowledge, right? If you are dealing something personal, please use PM instead of spamming the thread. If interested, can try for a month and share your results as well! [Thank you mikehuan for speaking neutrally]

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Added on August 16, 2012, 2:48 pmThank you for pointing out this particular matter, I will study on this issue.

This post has been edited by yan99033: Aug 16 2012, 02:48 PM

please do open a journal.

look son, not trying to discourage you for taking this path, it works, but if you want to post something in that context, be sure to put more info since you ARE comparing both methology. you have my support on your journey thou. as for the other dude, im too lazy & busy to argue with brainless nutheads anymore

good luck mate

REGARDLESS of the compexity to produce meat or whey, the end users need not know what involved to manufacture them.

Wouldn't it be simpler, and more logical, to simply compare prices of both items?

But I'll go for meat over whey everytime tbh. All the other nutrients in meat are important too, not just protein.

you have a point but then again this thread's context involved all of the above as an argument and comparison.

1.comparison between bodybuilding methods
2.cost effectiveness between both methods
3.the effect of it on the enviroment
4.health risks

thats why this thread is a cluster fark

anyways, he kinda gets the point i think, just let him do it his way and make his journal lor, this thread doesnt do justice to anything at all

Bee, let me make my stand perfectly clear, which I already did so on FB but somehow, it isn't getting into your heads.

I do not care if you become a meat eater/vegan and it's your choice to eat what you want to eat. Clear enough?

My point is, in this thread, yan posted about applying a vegan diet for body building and environment and he's offering here a new alternative information. I have no qualms about anyone eating meat or vegan. Neither is a wrong approach as it is your choice. But instantly dismissing an alternative choice and especially calling a person retard for the valid points that he posted is uncalled for.

It was a pure display of close mindedness to yan's offering. Subsequently, I don't see any constructive questions or a thirst for information by politely asking for more information on this path, but instead I see idiotic sex questions to poke fun at his choice.

That is my stand.

-----

You're not keeping up the news about farming. Go visit our beautiful Malaysian jungle and you can see strong and beautiful vegetations that don't need any chemical helping. A plant grown on a eco balance habitat has natural insect repellents and the plant itself is healthy and leafy. If you see insect and worm surrounding it mean the plant is dying and these insects are here to clean up to make way for healthier plants.

A true organic farming can follow this path as well.

http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/fst30years

Our vegetables are laced with pesticide and grown with artificial fertilizers, yes, and so are the meats, they are laced with antibiotics, unnatural growth hormones, and hormones that increase breasts size to produce more milk (notice the modern Americans have monster breast size?) and worst, they are fed with GMO plants. Which is of the lesser evil? I'll let you do your own research on that.

-----

mikehuang, first off, I dont see a point in this question as I am not against any meat eaters or vegan, and whether they are using supplements or not.

But the answer is yes, you can, there are plenty of protein in plants. Let's not forget that many of the largest and strongest land animals are plant eaters? Elephants, rhinos, hippos, horse...etc.

Not only they are strong, they have better endurance and stamina too compare to carnivores, which many are also strong but their energy are all in short burst.

There is a nutrition element, only available in plants, that helps in this, the same element that helps badminton players to win the rubber set match.

-----

In reference to my comment about lions being semi-veg...

There are carnivores and there are carnivores, some are meat-meat eater and others like the lion are meat-vege eaters.

Lions, tigers, cheetah etc know and they eat only plant eating animals, like zebra and wilderbeast etc.

When they kill, the first thing they eat is the stomach where the half digested vegetation are, borrowing the digestion of the plant eating animals which the lion's shorter intestine are not geared for. Yes, they kill hyenas and other meat eating animals too, but that's for territorial reasons and they don't eat them unless food is scarce.

You may notice that meat-vege eating lions and tigers have beautiful furs and skin. Wherelse the meat-meat carnivores like hyenas have ugly pigmentations and furs?

Interesting, isn't it? There's a lot more to this but it's gonna fall on deaf ears, so why bother...

-----

And ditto, Bee, I'm not interested to debate any longer with one who has already close his mind to new information.

-----

Others who are the least bit curious to find out more, I highly recommend this book -

"The Food Revolution" by author John Robbins

He is the son of one of the two founders of the ice cream company, Baskin Robbins. He decided to give up the ice cream business, went on a plant based diet and share with the world on why he did it and how you can do it. His book is filled with references to all the points he make where you can use it to do your research.

I need to end this in a peaceful way...

As I mentioned in the first place, "rethink what you are eating".
Nothing more nothing less.

BTW, after opened this thread, I'd made up my mind to switch my diet to vegetarian. I will open a new in "fitness journal" to record the milestones that I'd achieve.

Need to thank again to "working bee" to remind me about the whey protein manufacturing process. I will replace them with raw soy bean, cook and mix with my staples and see how it tastes.

Initially this thread is intended to let people with same interest to share their view, but end up...... Anyway, I learned something new. Stay foolish and keep learning!

Thank you everybody! Hope some of you can reap some benefits from this thread.

This post has been edited by yan99033: Aug 16 2012, 06:17 PM

How is my question irrelevent? U posted in the bodybuilding section, not the wildlife section.

Elephants and whatnot does not interest me. How difficult is it to answer that simple question anyways?

Yan has answered I noticed. Let's say u gain about say, 10kg more lean mass, how much would u need then?

Just visited organic store. Can't wait to share with you all for what I am practising everyday in journal section. Stay tuned and see how it works!

I think this is the best solution, people who interested can join me later! thank you.
Calorie intake, protein deficiency matter, carb intake manipulation, etc...

I have asked you the simplest question and non of it can be answered by you. How ironic that you can say I dont know how to do research.

Again, i reiterate my question:
why is the per capita of meat consumption grown so much over the years?

Answer: http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E02.htm

Population growth, need for balanced diet, richness in iron and protein in meat, etc etc.

How is it relevant?
Because it addresses the issue of why meat consumption is still growing and in demand, inspite of your efforts to go vegan. It also shows the futility of your efforts. Why is demand growing? population expansion, consumerism, rise in income per capita, demand for balanced diet for iron and protein, etc etc. You need to address these first before proclaiming that a vegan diet is a god-send remedy to health. Far from it.


When you say eating meat contributes to cancer, you also miserably left out the additives being added into it. Processed meat is used to feed the growing demand for meat, to keep it longer and fresher, and utilize all parts of the animal to avoid wastage. But such additives are the ones that can bring in the cancer effect. But eating fresh animals freshly slaughtered dont bring such harmful effect (unless you over eat).

Also, you seem to ignore the deforestation and environmental impact of the agricultural growth.

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/about...on_agriculture/
- rise in demand for soy/coffee,palm oil, etc.
- cheap labour costs
- poor brazilian people held at gun point forced to toil soy plantation.

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/about...on_agriculture/

You see, regardless of how humans try, every action we do to save the environment, will still have its dire consequences and negative impact to the environment. Even green technologies are also polluting the environment during the manufacturing phase.

If you want everyone to go on vegan diet, do consider the volume of plantations you need, land mass and such. And not forgetting the economy will be dependant on the weather too.



Good that you asked.

This is a health and fitness section.

YET, you posted something to call for environment awareness and impact. That itself is already off tangent for the purpose of this section. Which means, you're thread is already OUT OF TOPIC since its first post.