Amazing, we're still ting-tong till now, hehe
Anyway, as you said, get job done easier. How do you transfer file to another device? How do you copy a file from your device to PC. How does not having some important useful and nice feature more useful?

Yes, I still reach for my desktop. BUT here's the thing, sometimes, when I go out, I don't want to carry my laptop, but I can rely on my smartphone to do something that my notebook can. That makes a whole lots of difference. When a NEWER smartphone cannot be rely on to do some of those thing my older smartphone can, what does it mean?

Having more feature doesn't mean user struggle to get the same job done.
Having more feature means provide more options and choice for user. You don't have to use it, but it'll be convenient to have.
For example:
Simple file transfer to a PC.
If you go to a friends house and want to transfer some file to his PC, there's no softwares install for the file transfer, so you can't transfer. Now how is that convenient?

I still don't get your point. Having something more doesn't make it hurt or make things worst.
For example:
If a Digital Piano, with USB to PC to transfer midi files, VS a Digital Piano with USB to PC + USB to Host (e.g. ThumbDrive) and other connectivity. How does having MORE CONVENIENT feature be worst.
So you're saying it should become LESS and should not have so much connectivity options for users?
Sorry, I cannot get where you're going.

I did not say they have to cater for everyone, but to cater for more markets; But for Apple, they're doing well, so they don't have to fullfill other customers needs/demands.

Anyway, the discussion that start this was, 808 not being a smartphone, but in actual fact, Symbian was one of the first smartphone; So it's not right to say Symbian is not a smartphone as the smartphone concept, as I said before, was misunderstood.
What is a smartphone and how it started? As I mention many times already, back then, there is Pocket PC and people also carries phone around. Making the device as 1 device, it's a smartphone. The purpose of smartphone is a mobile computer in a phone. Long ago, people used to ask what is a smartphone and non-smartphone difference, and it's very easy to differentiate because a smartphone is basically like having a mobile computer with phone functionality.


Jailbreak is different already.
What's we're talking is about characteristics of smartphone and also about having those features as standard in samrtphones, not through any other means. It's just a very simple, basic and common features of smartphone, and some to even non-smartphones (e.g. file transfer via bluetooth).

Anyway, that's beside the point, what I worry now is, the future of smartphone, when these limitations and restrictions become a standard. It's hard to believe and shocking, but Microsoft actually implemented this in their Windows Phone.

Yes, because initially I thought we might not get each other point and misunderstanding something along the discussion, hence I keep explain with examples of how a software works and it's not something that is "limited" by the hardware (e.g. if it's not enough RAM, then we can't blame because it's hardware and it cannot be upgraded; Or if you bought a 61 keys keyboard, then you're limited by the hardware because you cannot add more keys to it).

And yes, there's Android for those who prefer customization. Actually, what I'm saying previously is, the future of smartphones, and what will become of it. Will those limitations and restrictions become a standard? You can see Windows Phone implemented the restrictions and limitations, and remove those features commonly or is a standard on smartphone.
Just imagine, now USB is becoming common feature available for digital piano, keyboards, synth. What if some company like Apple come up with their product and remove this feature, it become popular, and others start to FOLLOW and remove this feature? Of course, this most likely won't happen as it's a feature that gives an extra selling point.


Ok, the limitations is not what makes the OS run smooth, nor that by not having these limitation it will hang less frequent or freeze.
It's all about how the OS is being develop and managed.

One thing I must say is iOS is very well managed and done. But, somehow Apple decided NOT to give those common feature to users. Reasons, most probably related to "piracy" like they don't allow you to share music files, and they only allow their own types of media files, so you cannot just drop in any AVI or MP3, you need to transfer them from iTunes which will be converted to their own format. This gives user less flexibility and less convenient actually, but if you're only using on your iOS and other Apple device, there's no issue. So, in another way, they're also trying to encourage people to use Apple products.

Above are more on those security and how they wish to control their own products, thus they control on those mass-storage, file managers, bluetooth file transfer.

The reason they tightly control the OS (such as, multi-tasking capabilities, Flash support, etc) is due "minimize" the problems of "user issue". Example: If there is Flash, it's more resource consuming and may cause device to lag, etc. So for "normal" users who are not used to computer or understanding what's going on, will complain the product is not good. This is not good for the image of the product.
So, they don't provide it, not even a CHOICE for advance users who understands and able to accept the issues.
Most of us already own and use a PC, we also encounter browser crash or issues, so we should know, and we can also turn off Flash and other feature for those who wish to have lightweight, or for mobile, we can choose a lightweight web browser when we want to browse "lightweight". For example: Android, I can use Opera Mobile, or Dolphin HD or Firefox or the new Google Chrome. There's a choice here.

I do understand why Apple wants to control and restrict users. If you're an Admin that controls all the user's PC in the office, how will you minimize the users from issues from their PC? You can set very strict control and limitations to the user, give them a user account where they have no priviledge to install software, block them from accessing many websites, restrict this and that. With MORE strict and tight control, you get LESS problems, but users will have less convenient and many things cannot do easily.
In other words, Apple is treating all users the SAME level, they don't care or bother you're a advance user or not, they treat you the same.
What I hope they would provide is for advance users options and choices to enable and turn on (means provided by the OS, not through jailbreaking). Now without these options, it also means... their user can NEVER improve and advance, and forever remain in that level... So... who benefits? Apple... when their user try other product, they will feel it's very complicated, too much information, cannot handle... Just like when you use a simple camera, then you use a advance camera, OMG, so many controls, so many functions, so many features.... Is it hard? Actually, you just need to learn ONCE. But to "start" it's always the hardest step. (Or you can think about a standard piano, then a high end digital stage piano with many features and buttons, the user will says, so complicated, so many things).
Anyway, even iOS didn't provide it, others that start to follow iOS such as the Windows Phone, is not providing as well, they're also restricting and limiting users, and surprisingly, it's Microsoft. Since when their product become so restrictive and limited? Honestly, many were surprised.

Yes, mainly I blame other manufacturer's that follow BLINDLY.
What Apple did more on changing the perception on what a smartphone is, as what actually start this discussion was when 808 is questioned about being a smartphone. So, the smartphone understanding/perception has changed; As what I've mentioned before, smartphone, once there is a Pocket PC and mobile phone, bring them together we have a smartphone; And Symbian is one of the early smartphone OS.

And sorry; I did not hate Apple. Don't jump to conclusions. I do not hate any particular brand or platform. I'm not a brand or platform conscious person. I just don't like how somethings turn out from iPhone.
I'm very fair when I introduce people products, I'm not brand biased. I will understand what the person wants/needs, and recommend them. I have recommended a few to get iPhone because it suits them, I myself got iPod Touch. In fact, I love iOS UI, the smoothness, the transitions, how well they managed their resources and so on. As I said, they did VERY WELL on these part, and their product design are nice and quality, their service was also one of the best if not the best. I send my iPod for warranty, I'm guaranteed to get back within 2 weeks, if they cannot fix on time, they will give me a replacement. Now, that's a great service!
Even tough I'm disappointed with Windows Phone, I don't prevent myself from recommending people that are suitable for it. I just don't simply recommend to people, I will tell them what are the drawbacks and limitations of Windows Phone. For me, I don't like to "hide" the product weakness and only focus on the good side. If the person bought the product and later complains about the weakness, it's like you're cheating them just like a salesperson, and I dislike this.

This is one thing I agree with you completely

During discussion or debate, I don't like to "revert" to calling people fan-boys or something like that. That's more like when the person has nothing else to say and want to spark fire?

Anyway, it should be an open discussion. We're not small kids "lah", if something is bad, then is bad, how you "protect" and "cover" also no use.
If there's something bad, then I will say it's bad, I don't hide or cover. Even in my ranger review, I also write it out. Even the N9, some people who judge by cover, will think I'm very protective on N9, but in actual fact, I wrote many disappointment on the N9.
For me, it's something is bad, then it's bad, I don't understand how I can accept and cheat myself to like it.
If you check my past posting anywhere, even in my reviews, I always says this: If there is a weakness or drawback, we should highlight it and voice it out, so that the manufacturer take notice and will acknowledge it.
What's the point trying to cover/hide and protect it, in the end, the product will not be improved. I don't want this.

Even how much I like the N900, if you check my past posting in N900 threads, I've also wrote few complains about it's drawback. I don't believe there's a perfect device. It's important to give honest feedback, constructive criticism/feedback to the manufacturer and hope they will acknowledge and implement it.

Just like 808, I still hope there's manual control over shutter speed. There're people who mentioned it in DPReview, and Damian Dining did reply reason why he didn't implement it and suggest alternative method; But there's still no control, finally Damian acknowledge it and said something about will look into it.

A product of software is constant improving and becomes better, it's up to the consumers/users to keep give suggestion/feedbacks/request. IF I develop a software, I would want people to give feedback what they find it's lacking and what can be improve, how to attract MORE people to buy the software.
As for Agito, if you draw an art, you would want to know what people like, how to get more people to like your art, right? Or do you prefer people to lie to you and tell you everything is nice?

This post has been edited by Andy214: Aug 14 2012, 11:31 AM

Because here you have good example ma, not drag you into water.

Just trying to say, when we do something, would we want people to tell us their feedback honestly (and positively, and with useful information (e.g. this part not so good, can try this..), not simply with useless comment like "ugly", "like shit"), right?

Similarly, whatever Product there is, it's not perfect, so, it's normal that people will say about the weakness of the product, and its also usual that some people will protect it and some people will give useless comment.
Sometimes, when we discuss a problem, not everyone can understand and will think we're against the product and say this or that, especially in public forum, there're so many people, it's easily misunderstood or everyone sees things differently; just like Nikon thread, when I explain about suggesting people camera, people misunderstood that I only suggest high end camera, when in fact, I mentioned that I suggest based on the person needs and let the person decide, and I don't specifically push any particular brand. In public forums, it's like this.

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Added on August 14, 2012, 12:00 pmActually, not really complain here, just explaining and discussing with fellow forummers. As what started this is about 808 being a smartphone.

Anyway, as I said, different people sees thing differently. As you said, for proper feedback, need to go through the right channel. Many feedback actually been submitted, just depend on their decision.
And even already feedback, there's nothing wrong discussing here. Actually here is nothing, if you go to other western based forums, they discuss even more detailed and long text; It's probably less common here.

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Added on August 14, 2012, 12:13 pmJust hope they will remove those restrictions and limitations and provide more common smartphone features. Giving the user back a proper smartphone. If they truly want their product to be successful and reach more market, and if they truly mean what they meant in their slogan "Putting People First".


This post has been edited by Andy214: Aug 14 2012, 12:13 PM

Nah, it's just a discussion and sharing each other view/opinion/etc. If you go to other forums (usually those us/euro forums), it's quite normal for long text discussion.

I won't say it's twist, perhaps something would look better put in spoiler like:

Point
SPOILER - More Info/Description --> Click to read more
SPOILER - Examples --> Click to read more

I have no issues in those us/euro forums, in fact, I started internet and forums from there.

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Added on August 14, 2012, 5:23 pmTrue, there's many repeating; it happens usually when the point being to be overlook or missed. As mentioned above, it'll be better with better formatting and more clean.


This post has been edited by Andy214: Aug 14 2012, 05:23 PM

sifu, how you find the 808? Overall and also macro mode.

Sifu, yea, scene mode no controls. I only use Creative Mode, save your preferred settings in C1, C2, C3. For Full Resolution mode, you cannot zoom, so if you select "Close Up", you still need to stand quite far away, like around 15cm to get focus, so for Close-Up I usually use PureView mode and zoom, can get better close-up but too much zoom can be shaky. If use Tripod will be best.

For changing focus mode, as have others explain, tap and hold the screen.

From your photos, the N8 "close-up" is nice, but will wait for your new 808 "Close-Up" version. Do a comparison for 100% crop as well? How much detail for each phone's camera?
Notice that the 808 image less contrast, less saturated as well. From my office LCD, the 808 have cool tone (WB).


Yes, if you don't zoom, there's bad distortion on the sides especially. Would suggest zoom in a little or stand back more if you're shooting in Full Resolution, then crop away the sides.

Yea, if you're shooting at full resolution (38MP) and indoor, worst, very hard to get perfect sharp and no shake picture (zoom in 100% to check); but if you manage to nail the shot, it's WOW!!!

This post has been edited by Andy214: Aug 16 2012, 10:22 AM

But 808 WB gives more accurate color for the food, blacks, etc (maybe more cool than normal). The actual scene maybe warmer, so it depends what the person wants?
Usually people will prefer warmer colors, got more mood and looks more "class"?



This post has been edited by Andy214: Aug 17 2012, 10:49 AM

Damm sifu, getting more and more "keng" already. Nice~
How you find it, the camera performance and ease of use against others you have tried?

Yea, once you nail the shot, the outcome is satisfying.
Just wish it had more controls like we can force the shutter speed (especially when you want to capture action). Damian did say will be looking into it after somebody request and explained it in dpreview article's comment.


For JPEG, nothing much you can adjust for the WB during editing, and during capture, there's no custom WB only preset WB. But you can increase contrast, brightness, etc with the phone built-in editor, or you can adjust it in your camera settings. For those that want to edit later, usually will keep the settings to minimum to give more room, but if you don't want to edit, then you can adjust the settings to your liking (tough it may not fit every situation).

Erm, I mean not much, means limited, unlike RAW file.

Sometimes the photo can turn out too much brightness or too low contrast, so you see the photo like dull and less punch. Hence, why many people like "vivid" mode or colorful colors, or the default preset on the camera gives contrasty and punchy image.
My friend using DSLR always use Vivid mode as he like the vivid output and he also lazy to edit, and usually cameras tend to give warmer output as seems it's more preferred, some people even purposely add warmness to it. Asking people around and comparing two images, most of the time, people will opt for the slightly warmer image as it gives more feel and mood. So depends, if you're keeping the photos, then adjust to your liking/preference.

Anyway, as long as it can produce the output that you like. The Nikon1 on the other hand, will give you much more nice controls as well as fun in using, plus the much faster more accurate continuous focusing is pleasant to use.
808 is handy when you didn't carry you camera around.

Didn't try that, but using the slider adjustment in LR or Picasa, changing the values will affect the JPEG image much more compared to RAW and not sure how to explain, it affects the overall picture more. Hence, why I say can't do much.


Amazing SiFu! Got show to Nokia Malaysia? Must show to them...

This post has been edited by Andy214: Aug 18 2012, 01:23 PM

Sad, really wasted. Just show to them, let them see the difference and what you have done. Let them judge and feel their decision not to give you. I think providing extra one unit should not be a big problem.

Depends on your preference and whether you're satisfied with the output. You can set the settings before shoot, like different profile (standard, vivid, etc), increase/decrease contrast, sharpness, etc. BUT, the settings don't always fit every situation, you shoot a human portrait, you might want more natural and less vivid color, but shoot an object like cars, you may want it to look more outstanding, etc.

It really depends on individual preference, some people are happy with 1 settings and use it for all. Some people may store different settings for different situation and use accordingly *when possible*

The problem is, when you adjust settings and say pump up contrast, and color; When you edit, it's harder to recover and tone down later. On the other hand, if you plan to edit, you shoot with lower settings and pump up those properties you want later.
Imagine a food, if you overcook it, you can't uncook or recover it later.
If you cook it mildy, you can still cook it to your liking later.

Those camera which provides RAW files capabilities? Think of it as a RAW meat, you can cook it HOW you want.
JPEG? Imagine the RAW meat, you put into a microwave (e.g. Nikon, Canon, etc) with "PRESET", you choose the "PRESET" (Standard, Vivid, etc with those other settings like contrast, sharpness, etc) and it cook it for you. The pre-cook meat you get, how can then further add your own flavorings, etc (e.g. touch up, PP, etc).
With RAW, you do the process yourself, you have to apply your own presets, contrast, sharpness, noise reduction, etc. The benefit is, you have more control and how you want to cook it to your personal preference.

Why process yourself? Well, are you satisfied with the output from the camera? If yes, then no issues.
Do you edit the photos output from camera? If yes, are you satisfied? Have you tried editing a RAW file? Have you compare the limitation and differences in editing a jpeg and raw?
It also depends what you're using the photo for. Normally, if you're shooting for a job and want to provide the best quality possible, you might want to have the RAW file, or some just make-do with JPEG anyway.
So, it really really depends on you.

As for image quality: with enough/proper lighting and using low ISO, you can easily get a good quality image even with auto mode, the difference is the composition, angle, creativity, etc.
If you shoot often indoors, you will experience how the high ISO will affect the overall image, it's not just noise alone, but also color, and detail, sharpness, etc. Just like cooking a RAW meat VS taking a pre-cooked meat to cook, there is a huge difference when editing a RAW vs a JPEG.

If you read or watch the video on the 808, you might notice they mention about emphasizing on natural colors and also tone down on those settings to allow people more room to edit later. If you wish more contrasty image or more punch colors, etc; You can adjust the settings, it will be stored in C1, C2 or C3 profiles.
So maybe, you can set C1 as normal/default settings, then C2 for more vivid/contrasty image for specific situations, etc.

You can also try edit the photo using the phone built-in image editor and try use the auto-levels and/or auto-tone, or manually adjust the contrast, brightness. For example: If see a nice sky, you take a shot, it looks dull, try adjust the contrast, you will see the blue sky pops, the road will looks darker, more oomph... but if you have a human in the picture, the person may looked too dark or burnt.
If you take say a Samseng S3, take a shot, you will notice the default settings is more contrasty.
The difference is when you want to bring down the contrast, it will not be the same as an image which taken with lower contrast. Hence, if you can set different profile for different settings if you don't want to edit later.

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Added on August 23, 2012, 9:39 amAnyway, there're more to it, looking at the monitor is one thing. You might notice viewing the pictures on your laptop, your computer LCD, your office/friend's monitor, your phone may look different. Unless you're viewing it on a good calibrated monitor, you may not be viewing the brightness, color and temp "accurately".
Some monitors might have set to warmer temperature, or cooler temperature.

Sending the photo for printing is another, usually photo prints may have apply adjustments to the photo before print, they may increase the brightness, etc. If you ask them to print original, and then compare with the picture in your phone, LCD, etc, then you will notice the difference. Some monitor is bright, thus you thought your photo looks bright; Same goes for phone, as some people may tend to use high brightness settings which makes many things looks "good". After you print the photos in original mode, you might have different thought on how much contrast you want to apply, brightness, etc. but most of the time, people just view it in their phone or computer.

Well, these are the additional details, if you really want to compare the pictures....


This post has been edited by Andy214: Aug 23 2012, 09:41 AM

RCZ!

Whose?

1.6L engine, so roadtax cheap, hehe

You go to Nokia Official Store, they usually sell at RRP (Recommended Retail Price), which is RM1899.
Those non-Nokia official store but are dealers, they can sell at what people usually called 'street price'.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Aug 28 2012, 09:17 AM

Haha, european focus on Turbo and smaller cc engine. Anyway, the manual version is more powerful.