Till now these pro genneva kakis cannot understand the meaning of a scam or a scheme that falls foul of the laws. Die die want to blame here there everywhere. Who the hell are you pro genneva kakis to demand this and that?

Enjoy the pain and grief

So pitiful. 60k of childish a@@ho. Come on. It's time to wake up le.

Maybe there were not much gold left in that office. I believe there are more people claiming for gold than they have seized. Its only an office building with a few security guards - how much gold do you think they can store there without being robbed? Unbelievable

Most if not all consultants and investors does not know how the mechanism of this scheme actually works. All they know and care about is that they receive the monthly hibah and commission from GM. How GM makes the money to pay them, they dun want to know... so now someone "cuts off" their incomes.. they scream foul...

-move to new topic-

This post has been edited by yenli: Oct 10 2012, 12:19 AM

Don't you have to cost in the consultant's commission at 0.5% and upline commission at 0.3%?
Total payout is 2.8%, i.e. 2.8x12= 33.6% p.a. If investment is 100 with markup 25%, actual cost of gold is 100/125 x 100= 80. Net cash avlble for investment is 20.

Required ROI to cover payout = 33.6/20 x 100 = 168% !

168 = YAT LUK FATT (Cantonese meaning "ALL WILL PROSPER" !!!

well done bank negara!!

i'm wondering ...

1. do these "investors", who raked in 4 and 5 digits per month and who cried foul not getting their "hibah"/gift/dicretionary payment since the BNM raid (which was like less than 2 weeks ago), got no savings at all ? what do they do with that money they got every month ? spend 'em all ? cannot be THAT stupid, can they ?

2. do these "investors", instead of not getting the "hibah/gift/discretionary payment becoz of the BNM raid BUT due to Genneva suddenly decided not to give (which is "legal" as far as their agreement is concern), consider that scenario ? same pridicament, no ?


and i pity that one lady (?) who sent her children to Maahat Tahfiz with the "hibah" money. i really hope she'll realise that she's sending her children to the Holy Book with not so clean money ......

I have been following this thread because my spouse was approached regarding this 'incredible offer' about a month ago. Thanks to the arguments that were bandied about and a quick check of the BNM website, I advised my spouse not to take up any 'incredible offer'.
Now as events unfurl I would like to give my personal theory about all that I have observed, I came to this theory after reading some of the links given in this thread but I cannot be bothered to find those links so I apologise in advance:-

A group of gold businesses seeing the price of gold going higher and higher is suddenly worried about the profits/margins of their businesses. They come up with a new age business plan ...let our customers pay for the gold first. Set up association to oversee this new kind of business/industry then set up companies that would in effect get customers to hand in their cash [some of which languishing in banks earning very low returns or worse some cash lying under mattresses].
Approach some financial experts and explain the idea - financial expert[s] say "Brilliant, this is one way of getting previously uncirculating money into the system and be good for the local economy" [maybe he/she only thinking of 'money under the mattress' because educated people would understand that this was high risk and would not be affected..... after all it is taught in schools where he/she got his education overseas]
So the brilliant scheme unfolds....offer the opportunity of buying gold to customers at mark-up price and contract for 3 months. Offer a good interest/hibah to entice customers, make sure compliant with current rules and regulations. Then use mark up price to buy extra gold for use in family owned shops [thereby getting almost 'free gold'] as well as using the mark up to pay for operations cost.
All involved happy...Genneva probably did the best among all the other gold trading companies because they were more efficient and had the extra MLM approach to marketing [paying their salespersons with only commision rather that a basic salary that way no need for EPF and SOCSO payments - less paperwork and less hassle from authorities]
Because the hibah payments were regular activities and perhaps minimal questions were asked about the origins of money, other 'under the blanket' sources of money were attracted to the scheme and generated large cash flows OR maybe it was simply all the aunties and uncles withdrawing their life savings that activated tha 'money laundering act'.

Now I wonder if BNM are negotiating with the group of gold businesses to get them to underwrite all the debt generated by all the gold trading companies. Who knows, it may be a way to get the family owned businesses to share their profit margin with more of the rakyat....another new age business! Maybe those businesses could help pay back every ringgit loss and I hope none of our individual taxes are used to bail out these companies.

I am not a financial expert but that is my take on the situation.
We didn't take up the Genneva offer and feel really sorry for the individuals who have lost their life savings [still hopefully theoretical loss at the moment].
The islamic financial experts always go on and on about gold but they forget that dates were also used then as the valued item that was exchanged. What is wrong with having 'money' as the valued item of exchange provided it is controlled by ethical and learned people in the form of good regulations and enforcements.

Thanks for sharing out your calculation as Genneva's customer.

I am just curious the formula you presented to calculate your profit/loss.

1st, you used "gold capital loss 25%" then you used "gold capital loss 16%". In order to compare, gold capital loss shld be consistent, not a variable.

Lets take the loss is only 16% & you made 14% nett gain. Now, from here, one must ask how Genneva earn the $$ to pay your gain?

What is the product/services that Genneva is selling? Obviously the gold they sold to u is not profitable (coz you gained 14%)

And because Genneva is not a licensed investment institution, $$$ came from (fill in the blank) to pay your 14%.

This post has been edited by tandukperak: Oct 10 2012, 07:42 AM

Very nice thoughts......maybe the gold cos. are involved to drive the gold sales? Indeed! Afterall they are only
selling gold BARS and the customers are paying in ADVANCE......nice!

On your last bit about ethical people controlling the existing fiat system....no such people exists.
ALL fo them are in for profits whatever way. Thats the root of the 2008 financial crisis.

The existing banking system is an unethical system which allows fractional accounting whereby a RM1 becomes RM10 to lend out!
Isnt that as unethical as anything?
Plus the gomens of the world prints and prints till the fiat collapses......why would one wanna TRUST in these people?


WOW! In my years of Genneva debate, never have i seen so many unknown nicks appearing SO FAST!

In a civilized society, no one is allowed to earn something illegally by whatsoever reasons.

You can't rob, steal, smuggling, cheat for money because your kids at home are hungry for die.

Similary, you cannot invest into Genneva for the same reason if you know Genneva is an illegal company.

Try to think below:

1. You invest into a company which is trafiicking drugs. Your money is used to buy drugs to spoilt someone. Are you happy with your huge profit?

2. You invest into a company which is stealing cars. Your money is used to employ thieves to steal cars and share the profit with you. Happy?

3. You invest into a company which is running assassinate business. Your money is to employ killers to kill someone for profit making. What do you think when you receive such money?

4. You invest into a loan shark (Tai Yi Long) company. Are you happy too by using your money to buy paint for pouring people house?

Do not ever think of Genneva case is not serious as above extream examples. Genneva has already now affected 60,000 inevestors and consultants. If Genneva business is a ponzi scheme and let the business continues, do you know Genneva will bring how many people and family into a very dangerous situation. These people are going to lose their whole life saving.

Ponzi sccheme as many forumers explained here, ultimately, the base will lose everthing once the structure is unsubstainable. Yes, there are someone earn the money earlier, but, their money basically are from those at the base who lose everything.

Those lose the money will.....commit suicide, die because blood pressure and heart attack, folks lost their coffin money, some lost their medication and education saving.......

Would you happy for your earned money which has screwed up some one and their family?

Could you sleep everynight happily by putting your earned ponzi scheme money underneath your pillow?

THEREFORE, BNM must ensure Genneva is running legitimate business before their business cake grows too big.

My comment to BNM and goverment is that they take action too slow and do not educate public correctly for investments.

This guy will disagree with you. He said he is not investor. He is just gold buyer. I wonder why gold buyer got Hibah one?



This post has been edited by gogo2: Oct 10 2012, 08:30 AM

Much has been written about the GREAT GENNEVA GOLD SCAM OF 2012.
There were a million warnings about the unsustainability of the business model. And there were also a million predictions of GENNEVA'S imminent collapse, right up to days before the Oct 1st BNM raid.

If GENNEVA will inevitably collapse why do the GENNEVA masterminds embark on such a scheme? General SUN TZU famously said in "The Art of War" more than 2000 years ago, "Know Yourself, Know Your Enemy; 100 Battles, 100 Victories".

The workings of the GENNEVA master minds were posited in the Martin Lee blog, reproduced below:

p c wong
09/09/2012 at 18:48 (UTC 8) Link to this comment
Reply
GENNEVA’S GAME PLAN
#######################

Obviously, the Genneva masterminds (“GMs”) including the Genneva Colonel aka the TROLL, are not stupid people. So this is an exercise to delve into the workings of their minds to interpret how they rationalize their business model approach and strategy.

# Genneva paid up is RM50,000. The plan is to use Other People’s Money (“OPM”) to make a profit, to get rich quick.

# It is a fact of life that a sucker is born every second, so there are no shortage of suckers to lead up the garden path, to take for a ride, to part them from their money. KLANG Valley has population of 5 million approx. If 10 % of these are working adults with some money savings, there are 500,000 potential victims. But not all are gullible or greedy people. Say out of these 500k ppl, one in 25 are gullible and greedy, so the no. of potential victims is 20,000. See the size of the market for Genneva?

# The GMs, and the general public, are aware of the phenomenal rise in gold price in recent years. The time seems right to build up the hype concerning the superlative advantages of gold commodity investment.

# The GMs, genuinely or otherwise, reach the conclusion that gold will continue it’s price surge upwards, inexorably. To profit massively, massive bets must be made with huge positions taken. To do this, huge leverage is needed and what better way than to do this with OPM.

# For Dragon Year promo the Genneva offer was that you buy their gold at GOLDBEAM price (25% over spot price), you receive hibah or dividend 3% pm for 3 months (total 9%), and they. guarantee buy back at original price at end of term. Reportedly RM800m worth of gold was sold.

# The GMs’ expectation, prediction and gamble was that gold would have gone up by more than 25% over the contract term. If this had indeed happened the investors needed not to sell back the gold. Then GMs would have collected a cool RM800m x (20% markup- 9% hibah) = RM88m profit.

# Can you imagine RM88m profit from a RM50,000 investment over 3 months? This is the Genneva gamble !! Do you know that the GMs would have pulled off this stunt if indeed the price of gold had shot through the roof?

# What if the price of gold does not shoot through the roof? The Genneva options:

(1) the Park In scheme whereby you leave the gold with them and they pay you more hibah. REALITY: Your gold is used to sell to other buyers.
(2) Renting gold to Genneva for profit. REALITY: Sell your gold to others, your money investment not backed by gold.
(3) Safe Keeping Receipt. REALITY: Same as above.
(4) Secretly arranging Bank Negara to raid the Company, after hiding away all the money and the gold, then blame the GOVT for spoiling the party.
(5) Declare bankruptcy/insolvency and walk away, of course after hiding all the money and the gold.

# Options 1 – 3 are to buy time in the hope that the gold price will suddenly shoot through the roof.

CONCLUSIONS
##############

# Genneva is a huge money scam, a PONZI.

# The hibah are paid out of investors’ own money.

# Genneva is making a gigantic gamble on the continued spectacular rise in gold price, using OPM.

# Last year the gold price went up to USD1,900/oz; that was the time Genneva should have taken profits, close down the operations. But they got greedy and got caught in their own belief that gold price will shoot up to USD5,000 or 10,000 as predicted by some oracles eg Peter Schiff etc (featured in Genneva Facebook).

# The current sideways movement of gold price is causing intolerable cash flow problems to Genneva because hibah and commission payments are overly lucrative. See what is happening in Genneva S’pore – read hardwarezone Sg website.

GENNEVA IS TAKING A MASSIVE GAMBLE WITH THE INVESTORS’ MONEY. IN THIS GAME, IT IS HEADS GENNEVA WINS, TAILS INVESTORS LOSE. DO NOT GET INVOLVED IN THIS MONEY SCAM, OR GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

It can also be now seen that their fall back plan if the GAME PLAN fails is:

1. invoke "discretionary" clause, e.g. in Sg(?),
2. abandon and run with the gold and money; or
3. orchestrate a raid by Bank Negara and then urge all investors to focus their rage against BNM.

I usually don't give comments in LYN but when i do, is because the epic-ness of the subject. Really beh tahan lar.

I don't get these Genneva supporters. On one hand, they want BNM to expedite the investigation. On the other hand, they constantly try to badmouth BNM and post rude remarks on their FB page. What idiots.

If you go to a restaurant or hotel, do you think you'll get better service if you are polite or rude to their staff? Why do they think that being rude to BNM staff will achieve anything?

Most commercial crime cases take years. The stakes are very high for the accused. If they lose they go to jail. Who wants to go to jail? Their lawyers will use all kinds of delaying tactics to postpone hearings. When the trial starts, tons of documents will have to be presented. Numerous witnesses from both side will have to be called. Then win or lose, both sides will appeal the judgement all the way up to the federal court. The accused are not your common street criminal; they have a lot money to hire the best lawyers to defend themselves. The prosecution in this case has filed a FEW HUNDRED charges against the accused.

willingly to "buy" gold at premium, with a promise of monthly "gift"

Can i interpret it as GM customer is lending the "premium" to GM with GM promise to payback the monthly interest in the form of hibah/gift?

In short,, there is 60K creditors but only 1 debtor.

I now understand the New Age Hedging Thingy. I have an acquaintance who can generate 120% profits per year. He is what we locals call Ah Long. He lends money at 120% P.A. Maybe that is this New age hedging system! Only thing this is RIBA, so not Syariah compliant. That is why they are declared so in July.

not every1 reads BNM press release, and not every1 cares about educating themselves before jumping into "investment" schemes and those sort.

but i'll agree with you on the part that our authority tends to be a weebit slow when it comes to law enforcement.