i just got approach by two agents of Genneva..

after all the story that they gave it to me... my first thought, it was too good to be true..

dunno much about gold tho.. then check back at forum, this geneva still hot ...

dunno wanna invest or not.. BNM din give license to this company also..

and you guys, the brochure that they showed me, got Mahathir picture inside it.. and Rosmah and PM... while holding the Genneva cert..

I was like..... ... all the big2 guys inside this scheme... dunno whether the photo is real or not..

damn!.. i din take picture also to show u guys the brochure..

read this thread again -Throughly. All the guys have already answered.

This post has been edited by ccslink: May 28 2012, 04:50 PM

scary thoughts after reading all above as seeing it at kuchai lama can't believe so many ppl into this gold thingy...just to share:

http://mybiebie.blogspot.com/2012/05/genne...al-or-scam.html

Swiss Cash was also in the international scene going for years before they got clamped down.... So your analogy doesn't work.

Come across this interesting post in a Chinese forum (bbs.sgchinese.net) about Genneva which offers gold investment opportunities in Singapore. My apologies to those who can't read chinese.


现在通胀厉害，黄金价格涨到S$1445每盎司的历史高位，于是很多人包括我也想把部分资产换成黄金保值。
黄金的购买渠道有：
1、实体黄金，可去UOB直接购买
2、纸黄金，包括gold saving account和黄金证书
3、ETF黄金基金、黄金股票等等。
现在介绍第4种方法，以非常典型的一个公司Genneva（翻译：金玉华或金利华）为例。
如果有人告诉你，无论金价是跌还是涨，投资黄金每年能得到24%的回报，你相信吗？
你会不信，但有人这么做。
找Genneva买金条，千足金，按当日金价（以UOB为准）计算，加收20%的费用，你能得到
1、购买至少3个月，每月返还2%，3个月后卖回公司，把你最开始的所有钱返还给你。
2、购买不足3个月，每月返还1.5%，1个月后卖回公司，把你最开始的所有钱返还给你。
3、也可以选择不要2%的利息，计入下个月累计。
4、如果3个月后不卖回公司，就默认你以超出市价20%的价格保留了此金条。
举例：你投S$12K，买了价值S$10K的金条，每月返还2%，即2%*12000=S$240，一年就是12X240=2880。
并且3个月后，你随时可以卖回，取回以前的钱。
说实话，很不错的回报哦，如果你在后面加个0，投资12万新币，每月你可以得到S$2400，可以不工作了。
注意，以下是真的
1、Genneva确实具有买卖二手黄金的资格，它的金条也确实是货真价实的千足金（纯度999.9）
2、Genneva在马来西亚，新加坡，中国都有分公司，马来西亚有超过15万人购买它的黄金。
3、确实给你2%的回报，也确实以你付出价格的120%收回金条。
----------------------------------分割线-------------------------------------------------
一般人会想：
1、实际上我是借钱给Genneva，每年得到24%的固定回报，而Genneva给我黄金作为抵押。
2、就算Genneva是骗子，金条在我手上，我最多亏20%，即当时多付的钱。
何况1年后我就赚回这笔钱了，再何况一年后金价说不定还涨了20%呢。
3、如果我把2%的利息累积到下个月，不要1年，大概9-10个月我就收回本钱了。
于是购买Genneva金条的人，如过江之鲫，趋之若鹜。

真实的情况是什么？
在这种模式下，黄金的涨跌和你有关系吗？没有。
很奇怪，你买的是黄金啊，为什么黄金涨了你赚不到钱呢？因为只要黄金涨幅没有超过20%，你就一定亏。
因此，这家公司的本质是以黄金为载体进行集资，把多赚的18%拿来付下一个买家的利息，这样不断累积成一个巨大的金字塔。
是不是很眼熟？
这就是庞氏（PONZI）的变种。Ponzi最开始是以邮政票据为载体，大量敛财，45天翻倍，收益率为100%；麦道夫升级了，以复杂的衍生金融产品为载体，每年保证收益10%；
Genneva以黄金为载体，只赚你20%，当然也不让你亏完，只亏20%-30%。
在这种情况下，你的回报只是2%每月，也不错啊。
前提是这个公司是信誉可靠的正规公司，否则垮了的话，你拿着黄金在手上，这部分钱就死了，你必须慢慢等它涨过30%才赚钱。
（为什么是30%？因为你把你手里的黄金卖给金铺，是要打折扣的，一般是5%-10%）
什么情况下会垮？当大部分人觉得怀疑，要求马上兑现金条，Genneva cash flow马上就有问题，因为它只能通过下家来赚钱，没有其他的投资收益，这时就垮了。
这究竟是个什么公司呢？逐一看它的自我介绍
Genneva有30年的黄金交易历史-----假的，实际上新加坡Genneva在2008年1月才注册。
Genneva是MAS允许的----假的，实际上2011年2月，MAS将Genneva列入alert list，也从未给予从事此类活动的license。
Genneva是BNM（马来西亚国家开发银行）承认的---假的，BNM早就正式声明，从未涉及金条交易，否认授权Genneva。
Genneva的3位高管是声望很高的拿督---假的，2009年、2011年这3个人被控796项罪名，涉及洗黑钱，非法吸取公众存款；2011年4月在吉隆坡开庭裁决。

总结：
1、这是一家以庞氏模式营运的集资公司，没有实体业务，靠下家的钱养活上家，我没有资格说这是骗局，因为吉隆坡还没有开庭，没有真正定罪。
2、庞氏模式决定了你想搏一把可以，但是必须早进，如果你08年、09年进去，现在退出或者早点退出，恭喜你，你没有做最后一个傻瓜。现在已经是2011年3月，
我认为这个公司4月就会破产（只要法庭定罪），现在进去，最后一个傻瓜可能是你。
3、这是高风险的投资，你胆子大，进的早，跑得快，就可以赚钱；要是你很贪心，2%都不要，就想最后拿一大笔钱，那么恭喜你就拿着手里的金条等着某一天涨30%，才能解套吧。
4.最后，事出无常必有妖，要是黄金那么好赚，那么多黄金基金经理都加入Genneva好了，大家不要贪心，看清楚这类打着实体黄金买卖的幌子，实际上非法集资的公司！

can u pls provide a 1 or 2 line summary in English pls?

Do I need to sell back the gold to Genneva in order me to get the interest?

Actually why you guys choose Genneva???
Banks also got Gold account.
If you don't trust bank, why trust Genneva?
If want internationally recognized goldbar, that would be PAMP Swiss gold bar.
It comes with birth certificate number......

This post has been edited by anudora: Jun 25 2012, 06:48 PM


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You did not answer my searching questions : If Genneva is truly a scam (means cheat), how come 4 Govt in diff countries could not detect their SCAM?? After more than a year? Heard they are doing RM3b in Malaysia and RM3b in 3 other countries. Now it is going for more than a year!!!!!!! Please understand its meaning SCAM. Also if it is PONZI scheme, banks are the worst PONZI scheme in the world.........America leads the world in this, having no gold backing for their paper money. We call it fiat money, just paper. But how can Genneva be ponzi scheme??? Ponzi scheme are also rejected by BNM. Very confusing!!!


Need someone to enlighten me cos I have bought some of the gold bars and attended some of their meetings! Nothing illegal or scam about it. Hello, it involves religious Syariah Laws compliance and you think the religious advisors from BNM will acccept frauds?? Don't tell me they were paid off.........PLEASE! Don't insult these people in BNM and the Syariah Law experts who are religious people!! I heard one of the Advisor from BNM SITs on the Board of Genneva as advisor and observer that Genneva practise the Syariah Law Compliancein its fullest compliance. Please don't confuse the public!!!! Luckily, i'm not confused.

They do provide a lot of false info. If you read through every pages you know what I mean.
They use the name of Poh Kong= Fail
They said the goldsmith shop will buy back their gold = Fail
Deduction percentage at goldsmith shop only 20-25% = Fail (At least 35% onward)
You will hold the gold bar = Fail (it can be 4 peoples sharing 3 gold bars because of the inspection period. At the end you might not get back the cash and the bar if the company wind up)
They check the purity of gold from external part = Fail


They will never let you know they will have cash flow issue at the end. The clause can be changed. You will never know whether you are the late comer.

This post has been edited by doraemonkiller: Jun 25 2012, 08:53 PM

Translation from Uncle Google :

Severe inflation, the price of gold rose to a historical high of S $ 1445 per ounce, so a lot of people including me want to part of the assets into gold hedge against inflation.
The channels for the purchase of gold:
1, the physical gold to go UOB to buy
2, paper gold, including gold saving account and gold certificates
3, the ETF gold funds, gold stocks, and so on.
Introduced four kinds of methods, is very typical of a company Genneva (translation: Jin Yuhua or Jinlihua), for example.
If someone tells you, regardless of the price of gold is down or up, investing in gold a year to get a 24% return, you believe that?
You will not believe, but some people do so.
To find Genneva buy gold bullion, and thousands of gold, according to the date of the price of gold (UOB prevail), is subject to 20% of the cost you can get
1, the purchase of at least 3 months, the monthly return of 2%, to sell back to the company three months after the beginning of all the money returned to you.
Purchase less than three months, the monthly return of 1.5 percent a month later sold back to the company, the beginning of all the money returned to you.
Can also choose not to 2% interest, included in the next month cumulative.
4, three months later sold back to the company, by default this bullion price exceeding 20% ​​of the market value of the reserves.
For example: investment and S $ 12K to buy a value of S $ 10K of gold bullion, the monthly return of 2% 2% * 12000 = S $ 240 a year is 12X240 = 2880.
And three months later, you can always sell it back to retrieve the previous money.
To be honest, very good return, if you will later add a 0 to invest 12 million new dollars a month you can get a S $ 2400, you can not work.
Note, the following is true
1, Genneva does have the qualifications to buy and sell second-hand gold, gold bars are indeed genuine thousands of gold (purity 999.9)
2, Genneva in Malaysia, Singapore, has branch offices in China, Malaysia, more than 15 million people to buy gold.
Really give you a 2% return, and indeed 120% of the price you pay to recover the gold bullion.
---------------------------------- Split line -------------- -----------------------------------
Most people will want to:
1, in fact, I borrow money to Genneva, get a fixed rate of return of 24 percent annually, while Genneva to gold as collateral.
2, even if Genneva is a liar, gold bars in my hands, my best thanks to the 20% pay more money.
Not to mention a year after I recover the cost of money, not to mention a year later, gold might also rose 20 percent.
3 to 2% of the interest accumulated to the next month, do not for one year, about 9-10 months to recover capital a.
So buy Genneva bullion, such as river carp, rush.

What is the real situation?
In this mode, the ups and downs of gold and you have? No.
Very strange, you buy gold, ah, why gold has gone up you earn money? Gold or no more than 20%, you are sure loss.
Therefore, the nature of this company is gold as a carrier to raise funds to earn the 18% interest used to pay the next buyer, accumulating a huge pyramid.
Is not very familiar?
This is the variant of the Ponzi (PONZI). Ponzi began the most is the postal bills as a carrier, a large number of money-making, 45 days double the rate of return of 100%; Madoff upgrade the complex derivative products as the carrier, 10% of the guaranteed annual income;
Carrier, Genneva gold earn you 20%, of course, will not let you lose End, only the loss of 20% -30%.
In this case, your return is only 2% per month, not bad either.
The premise is that the company is reputable formal company, otherwise collapse, you took the gold in your hand, this part of the money is dead, you must slowly and so on up over 30% just to make money.
(Why 30%? Because you put your hand gold sell gold shop, should be discounted, is generally 5% -10%)
Under what circumstances would collapse? Suspect that when most people think, to immediately honor bullion, Genneva cash flow immediately, there were problems, because it can only be to make money, there is no other investment income, then collapsed.
This is exactly what the company do? One by one to see it
Genneva 30-year history of gold trading ----- fake, in fact the Singapore Genneva registered in January 2008.
Genneva MAS allows ---- false fact, in February 2011, MAS will Genneva included in the alert list, has never been given the license to engage in such activities.
Genneva BNM (Malaysia's state development bank) recognized --- false, BNM has long been an official statement, never involved in the trading of gold bullion, denied authorization Genneva.
Genneva the three executives prestigious Datuk --- false, 2009, 2011, these three people charged with 796 offenses involving money laundering, illegal from the public deposits; in Kuala Lumpur in April 2011 court ruling .

Summary:
1, which is a fund-raising companies operating Ponzi model, there is no physical business, rely on home money to feed on, I am not qualified to say this is a hoax, because Kuala Lumpur has no hearing, no real conviction.
2, the mode of Ponzi decided you want to fight a can, but you must enter as early as, if you are 2008, 2009 into the exit or exit as soon as possible, congratulations, you did not do last a fool. Is now March 2011,
In my opinion the company will go bankrupt in April (as long as the conviction in court), and now into a fool you.
3, which is a high-risk investment, you are courageous, into the early and run fast, you can make money; if you are greedy, 2% do not, and wanted to finally take a lot of money, then congratulations, you took to begin in the bullion rose 30 percent, waiting for a day in order to mitigate this right.
(4) Finally, something out of impermanence must demon, if gold then pay any more, so many gold fund managers join Genneva good, we should not greedy, see the guise of such name of physical gold trading, in fact, illegal fund-raising company !

Haha, whatever you said, I am not believing this scheme. It is like musical chair. The last few people will get caught without a chair

My sincere advice to you. Get your gold and run fast fast !!

Since you have bought and how much are you getting now??? NOTHING because it's sitting in your safe waiting for the price to go up. What if it doesn't and what if the price drops???
How much premium did you pay when you bought the gold bar??? Don't tell me it is at spot price.

When the price goes up and you sell, how much discount will the gold smith shop deduct from spot price??? If the price drops, worst for you. It is between 20-25% off the spot price.

In Genneva, it is savings, it is not investment. If you pay a premium for it, you get paid an interest on the premium amount every month. When you sell back to Genneva, you get back the fixed price you first paid when you buy. So u just earn an interest each month from the time you buy to the time when you decide to sell back to Genneva. So u don't lose on your original price you paid for the gold bar.

It is just a savings account secured by gold. Just like when you put in your money in the bank, you get a bank book and you get interests per year at say 3.5%. When you want to withdraw, you just take out your original amount you put in. That's in a nutshell.

POINT 2.
Say the gold spot price is now RM150 per gm. Goldsmith spot price will be say RM180/gm, that is RM18,000 for 100 gm. Say Genneva rate is RM200 per gm. Therefore if you buy a 100 gm, it will cost you RM20,000 at Genneva's rate.

So pls put into your own savings account RM18,000 and pay yourself 2% each month. If I were to put RM20,000 in Genneva, Genneva will pay me 2% each month. I get additional RM400 each month not out of my own pocket. But you are paying yourself. Who's the fool??Very shallow analysis with no substance. Work out cash inflow and cash outflow. Any increase in your inflow??It is that simple. Tsk tsk tsk.........

Argument ends. Bye bye.

---

Added on June 25, 2012, 9:32 pmI have read all the argument and many people said lots of things but it make no sense to me. Let's look into this scenario. If there is finanicial crisis, the people who are affected will be those that hold paper cash, shares, paper security like mutual funds, bonds....etc. The people that hold gold will probably double or triple their value. If there is a financial crisis, most likely Genneva could be surviving and double or triple their holding value. Most gold companies will be safe from the crisis. By then, of course i will not sell back to Genneva my gold which i have bought but hold it further before i sell it on the open market like to Australia's Perth Mint etc.. So between now and at time of financial crisis, i will put to good use my money earning a safe interest income, each month. That is in a nut shell.

Welcome to comment intelligently. This is just sharing ideas.
Tks for reading.

This post has been edited by AUGUST777: Jun 25 2012, 09:32 PM

I answered you by giving you the example of Swiss Cash.
It had been around for years before they noticed.

Btw, did you know the court case against the old Geneva is still going on in High Court?!...
They just re-package a bit and come with another Geneva company.

---

Added on June 25, 2012, 9:51 pmThere is a fine line between "savings" vs "investment".
You can't term an investment as a form of saving which is technically wrong.
Savings guarantee the "savings" you "saved". There is no special condition or losing out of the "savings" you saved.

Whereas investment, you don't have a guarantee on what you have "invested". It is good if you make profit, but in every investment, there is a risk of loss of the amount you "invested".

This post has been edited by b00n: Jun 25 2012, 09:51 PM

Saving account is a deposit form.
Having a saving account for other to put in is a deposit taking.
Any deposit taking need BNM approval.

Yes having been to their meetings, I know that. The old one under investigation is Genneva Sdn Bhd and the new one is Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd. And i do know that BNM has acknowledged its operation under the new name with the "old package" operating behind.Well this is common knowledge but 'funnily' BNM still allow them to operate, coming to 2 years now! Since they have a Syariah law professor as advisor from BNM on their board and 3 other professors in Genneva panel including one seconded from a bank, BNM should know, they do have their own officers checking on companies like them. My question is, why didn't BNM and ROC strike Genneva off?? I was told that Genneva is also reporting to BNM on a monthly basis. So that is why i couldn't believe all the talk about Genneva being scam (very easy to shut down these kind of companies). These rumours could have come from different quarters who were severely affected by Genneva's operations. They were also investigated for breaking the AMLA act. But investigation is going on but this is not investigation into scam. Todate I was told that BNM could find any misdeeds by Genneva. Many of the postings in Lowyat and else where has mistaken investigation means guilty..... investigation means they are checking for proof. Both the investigation is not for fraud or scam but are for breaking the BAFIA and AMLA act which has nothing to do with SCAM!!!!! So i'm a bit pissed off from people who simply quote others like parrots and also they themselves have such shallow analysis.

Thanks bOOn.

They say the so-called hibah is you pay yourself. Do an inflow and outflow mental calculation, and you know they are so shallow in your thoughts.

---

Added on June 25, 2012, 10:32 pmYou are right Cherroy. For that they were investigated under BAFIA ACT. By the way, i found that Genneva is a second schedule business institution following guidelines laid out by BNM. So they have to amend their agreement to exclude that under BAFIA act...buy back guarantee. Under Syariah Law, they can't put that either. Hence the first time they were investigated, it was for this purpose, NOT for scam reasons as many of the comments we keep on hearing people say. The 2nd investigation was about AMLA act, again not for scam investigation. People always like to have scare mongering and show others how well they were informed. That really pissed me cos i was influenced also.

Cheers Cherroy.

This post has been edited by AUGUST777: Jun 25 2012, 10:32 PM

Since you are so knowledgeable, find informing all what happened to the investors under the old company?

Btw, am curious on all the "high profile" person you mentioned. Who are the names? I only known of Tun Mahathir endorsing Geneva without even investing himself.

Like I say, 2 years 3 years or whatever - Swiss Cash had been around for more further than that before the whole world taken notice.

Why they are able to be back operational is because they are using the Islamic concept as a loophole to repackage. Btw, do you know a lot of banks although claimed their product is Islamic compliance is not necessary recognized by the middle eastern banks as shariah compliance?

Islamic concept in Malaysia still had a long way to go.
Since Hibah is mentioned, more understanding of Hibah here: http://www.bnm.gov.my/microsites/financial...s/08_part02.pdf so which contract does it falls under, i.e. the scheme that Geneva offered?

Ok, i have to find that out if there are investors under old company who were "cheated" by that company. Interestingly, I don't hear anything at the ground. However, normally in this kind of sharing, I like to establish my principle abt this - first if i do not do a fact finding research on it, i decline to comment. Simply put, i would ask this to a person, "have you been to their meeting? have been to their office? Do you know what they were investigated for? (meaning we need to know a bit about the law) etc. " usually when a person starts arguing without reading or attending or researching the subject matter he is arguing, i won't proceed further cos he is just presuming from his coconut on his shoulders.

High profile names. They are in the papers and on Genneva's office wall and videos. Or you can get from the company officers. A good many. Syariah Law professors? A good many. Ask any Genneva consultants. They should know if not i'll be SURPRISED!!!!

When we go into Syariah Law, it is debatable, a big topic beyond our grips. But at least we know they come under the purview of BNM. That is good enough for me. At least the top authority is into this and provides guidelines, particularly for those who practise Islamic banking and financial operations to be able to 'profit' from it righteously in their way of religion. That is, this law for the Muslims. Then, this guideline is even stricter in the sense as it stems from trying to conduct it religiously, if you know what i mean. So at least the higher authority BNM knows what is going on.

That is all i have to say.

understand this is just sharing, nothing personal. I want to discover more.
Thanks bOOn for your opinion.

Taiko,
On Genneva's business structure, there is no doubt it is extremely attractive. Where to find returns of 24% with guaranteed returns of capital ?

As an investor, do you think that we are uninformed (read : so stupidly ignorant) of the potential returns ? If it is really that attractive, why most of us here don't pour our money into Genneva ? I will be the first to liquidate all my business, my real properties, my physical gold, my watch collection, my antique collection, my wife's diamond collection, plus most probably I will sell my wife and mistresses and my left kidney too to invest into the company. In 10 years, I would make 6 times (compounded) my initial investment + potential increase in gold price (could be US$6000/oz in 10 years time, which is another 6 fold) ! With initial investment of say, RM10m, an investor is guaranteed to make RM60m, and potentially another RM60m = RM120m, all in 10 years time !

Why I am so "stupid" not to follow you ?

Because I believe in high risk, high return. The risk is just too high in Genneva. I would rather sweat myself out to work for the money I deserve to earn. This type of high risk money, frankly I got no balls to earn. Not even a single sen because I one day I will be a laughing stock when the company folds up

Remember, Bernard Madoff was caught only after >15 years he is in business and burn away US$65 billion ! And US authority is way more stringent than malaysia. Compare to Madoff, Genneva is just a small potato.

Anyway, I wish you luck

Actually I do not know this is scam or not, because I am not judge, but the summary is:

1. Yes, they sell real gold to people.
2. Yes, they do give hibah (about 2% interest) monthly as promise.

So the annual interest is 24%, so where is the money come from in order to give customer as return? It is simple, every time when customer buy the gold, they have to pay extra 20%, total 120%, which means if the market price of the gold is RM10K, then customer need to pay RM12K for that, so from the 20% extra, the company will be able to use that to give to other customer as the "return" or "hibah". In this case, if they already sold RM10K gold to 10 customers, then they will get total RM12K X 10 = RM120K cash, earn RM20K extra, if next month sold another 10 customers, earn another RM20K extra, but they just need to pay RM2K out as "interest" to the old customers who bought in last month, so the money will like the snow ball keep rolling and become bigger and bigger. But the problem is they have to sell enough gold monthly in order to get the money from the new customer to give the old customer as "interest", if not the whole plan will be collapse. We all know this is just the matter of time because no matter how high is the pyramid, the bottom still on the land, it is no unlimited customer to buy the gold. Yes, we can buy the gold and start earning the "interest" today, or even become a "consultant" to sell the gold to our own auntie & uncle, close friends or colleague, sure they will buy because the interest is so high. But what happen when the plan hit the floor? Most of the people earn RM10K in months but takes years to save RM10K in bank, they will be crying and begging to have their money back.

Once again, I really don't know this is scam or not, but I just think we shouldn't support this kind of the activity because no matter how, there will be victim at the end of the plan...