That's why I've been highlighting, it's not just about iPhone users or people are OK with iPhone. Are they only targeting iPhone users or users that are OK with iPhone? If yes, then they're VERY BOLD. Problem is, these people is not just concern with smoothness, they also cared about branding and popularity. In this context, can any brand be more popular and desired than Apple?

As for standards; It doesn't matter what standard Apple set, why should people follow it just because it's famous. For top management, maybe, just maybe or high possibility, they just follow whatever the trend setter, the famous product. Many times, in a project, the PM may not know very well, the top people may not know very well, but the bottom person is the execute the work and deal with issues. Users will complain why the developer never think of this, never provide this, but many times, it's controlled by the higher level what they can do. So, user blames the wrong party.
That's why a system develop by smaller party or the person who can make decision, often makes a better software; Just like those app we buy sometimes, or 3rd party free app, sometimes they work better and provide better features, and sort of listen more to the customers.
It's like something powerful and capable, but if drop in wrong hands, they can't utilize it and thus the result.
Management is like a user, if you have great management and proper knowledge, you can utilize and produce great result even your staff is not very capable. It's like a powerful, flexible, capable software but limited by the capability of the hardware.
If there is poor management, with limited knowledge, if they limit and restrict what the staff can do and capable of, then the product produce cannot have good result, no matter how capable the staff is because they're restricted and limited to what they can do. This is like having a powerful and capable hardware, but with a software that have full of restrictions and control.

Want a fluid phone, there's the iPhone, and it's got tons of apps/games, with high popularity and people whom have spend hundreds or thousands on apps and music; How are you going to convince them to switch to Windows Phone that is almost similar, but they have to purchase everything again?

Windows Phone OS, the interesting part is the People Hub and Office Integration mainly.
But for those who don't use Office, this become a not valid point. How many people actually wants to use the Office?
People Hub, it's one of the main and most interesting feature of Windows Phone, which set it apart from the iPhone, but I got to know that some people dislike this it seems. Some of them prefer it's separated and complain why their MSN Live in their PC now is showing their Facebook contacts. Some may like it, some may not like it, but as I've said, there're a CHOICE here, they can use it or don't use it. So here, MS has done right, with CHOICE/OPTION.
Now, with everything else almost similar like iPhone, how are they going to challenge iPhone?

I'm not referring to Nokia or Lumia, I'm solely referring to Microsoft. I'm very disappointed with Micrsoft with their Windows Phone OS limitations and restrictions. I've been a user of Windows Mobile since long ago and that was the true mobile version of Windows. If they want to make it simple, they can, but they don't have to remove the features and capabilities, and there's no need to add restrictions just because Apple product is famous.
It's like what I've said, it's highly possible the management just decides to follow Apple based on it's popularity.
If they have a reason, then why tell everyone about it and make it clear and see if people can accept the reason. I doubt it'll be valid, it'll be like what Jobs did, giving lame excuses.


This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 19 2012, 02:27 PM

Not to sound mean, but I believe I'm putting myself in other person's shoes in most cases, I think about all sorts of users, from young to old, many types of users. And all current Nokia users, have never face such limitations and restrictions; Have you put yourself in their shoes?
Have you put yourself in a person who are not internet savvy and use computer? They own and still uses Symbians, even high end Symbians phones like E7, N8, etc.
Can you imagine how they can cope with Windows Phone, that requires Zune, doesn't have the most commonly use method of transfer, aka bluetooth?
Can you imagine someone at reunion dinner, use his new Windows Phone, took some nice photos then the relatives ask, please send to my phone. How should they react? Can I send to your e-mail ar? See from Facebook?
No email how? No Facebook how? What is all this? Have you put yourself in all kinds of situations?

You don't have to be a perfectionist. It's a software, and it doesn't have to be 100% perfect, but it can be easily made to suit many different situation and cater for different people. OS is a software and do you know it's the limitations are usually due to hardware capabilities? But for iOS and Windows Phone, it's not due to the hardware, it's because the company wishes to limit and restrict. That's 2 different thing.

If you have to understand software, when developing software, you can create one that only fit 1 type of users, or you can try to cater for more types of user.
There're software which comes with LITE and PRO version, do they create 2 different version? In proper software design, no, they only create 1, which is the full complete version, if you buy the lite version, either they remove or disabled/hide the feature away until you upgrade.
Software is very flexible and customizable, it's not like hardware.

That said, if Microsoft wants to allow bluetooth file transfer, it's can be easily done, it's just whether they wants to allow it or not.
With people saying it's OK, we can live with that, that means? Whats' more, with reviewers and bloggers around telling people it's OK. It gives the wrong impressions. If the management heard complains and want someone to do survey, and if these people do survey based on what bloggers, reviewers said, they come up with, "majority is OK". The management will remain their decision.


Sorry, Lumia isn't even digicam.
With restriction and limitation, you can imagine a camera which ONLY gives you AUTO & SCENE mode; There's no Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority, in short, it doesn't allow you to customize. You can think of a company take the digital camera and REMOVE all these features, then they CALLS IT simple and easy to user.
Yeah, simple and easy right?
Most if not all digital camera have AUTO & SCENE modes and have all other features. Why does removing makes it special? As I said, you don't need? then just don't use it, as simple as that. BUT if there is such option, you can learn LATER if you want. With no such options, you're limited of what you can do or learn.
What's the benefit to the manufacturer, the user will never learn and advanced, whcih is good for them because when the user used something more advance with more buttons and features, they got scared and afraid to change and learn.
CHANGE is the hardest, and most people are reluctant to learn and try something new especially more complicated.

If you don't understand remove, basically, a smartphone is a mobile computer phone. Before Apple comes into picture, all smartphones are trying to provide a computer experience on a phone, hence the name Pocket PC, then Windows Mobile. A mobile version of Windows.
But ever since Apple came into picture, it changes everything. Windows Phone is following the traits of iOS.
With such restrictions and limitations, it's more like a mediaphone than a smartphone; A zune player converted into a phone, just like how iPod Touch converted into iPhone.

If they were truly developing a mobile version of Windows, then it would work like Windows. It should be able to provide many of what a desktop windows can offer in mobile form.

Anyway, that is not a concern to many people as they just need apps and games. Let's talk about some of the main annoyance:
1. Reliance on Zune (same like iPhone); Why there is need of such restrictions and reliance? Microsoft should totally just drop this. No smartphones has such things.
2. Restrictions on file transfer (bluetooth in particular), another iPhone feature. No smartphone has such things before.
3. No mass-storage access (related to point (1)).

These are the main drawbacks of Windows Phone and it doesn't take a genius to foresee any problems. Even now, you can see many complains from Nokia users who switch to Nokia Lumia thinking they were upgrading but only to face the frustrations from the limitations and restrictions.

If you want a product to succeed and widely accepted, you need to find out what's the bottleneck or problems that's the major drawback for the phone.

From your statement, you clearly don't understand software. I've explain in my above post.
Its still complicated, but they continue to make it more simple and easy, just like any other software, even Windows. With Windows 7, there're many improvements, but did they add restrictions like cannot do this, cannot do that? If they did, are you going to support them and say there is a good reason they did this?

You can compare, but there's no need to as I said, if you build a car which meant to save fuel ONLY, the answer is obvious, if you want to compare, it just to show HOW much saving in the point of view from the fuel saving car, while if you turn it around it's to show to the sport car user HOW fuel efficient is the car despite offering such power.
In this case, Lumia is smooth, you show much smooth smoother. In N9 point of view, you show you smooth it "still" is comparing to Lumia DESPITE the capabilities of the OS.
Or imagine comparing Opera Lite and the normal Opera, it's obvious the Opera Lite will be smoother. So, there's no really no need to compare it's obvious, but I didn't say you cannot, right? For me, it's serves no purpose unless it's like what I mentioned above, to show how much smoother in Lumia point of view, or how smooth it "still" is in N9 point of view.

Why not? Why must? hat's the reasons them? It's simple, if there is 2 options, why don't go for the better option where most people prefers and get rid of all the hassle?
Simple things like bluetooth file transfer? It's simple option, but why restrict? Are you saying it's better to restrict and face all the complains from users and other possible problems? It doesn't require a genius to foresee this.
I would say they're following what iPhone did because of popularity.
In this world, many management decision are based on what's popular and they follow the product, even cars. There're research agencies which help them do research and these research agencies may not be product specific and so on. It's very complicated, but many times, the decision made by higher level, may not necessarily understand what's going on. They see "charts", "graphs", "statistics" and make decision from there instead.

Maybe you don't understand software so you don't see it this way.
If a phone have FM Transmitter hardware and have front facing camera, but the software doesn't provide it. TO a customer, they know it's not the phone cannot do it or doesn't have the hardware, but it's the manufacturer doesn't want to provide this feature in their OS.

Just like bluetooth file transfer, mass-storage, etc. all these are easily done and should've been provided.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO SATISFY EVERYONE.
Did you get the picture?
Software is not a limitations or restrictions. Its the manufacturer's decision.
If it's something that cannot be done, then YES, nothing wrong witht that and nothin to blame.
Bluetooth file trasnfer, mass-storage mode is a very common feature in most (if not all) real smartphone.

Now here's an example of not putting yourself in others shoe. Or should I say, most people put in other shoe, but they use themselves without feeling and understand how others feel.
You don't need and you don't realyl miss them, but do you know MAJORITY DO and were frustrated?
This is not good for Nokia.

If people want a phone that works, there're many phones, not smartphone. But what is a smartphone then?

It's funny cause it's like you keep defending what Microsoft did. Windows Phone has these flaws, it's well known and must be acknolwedge and highlighted to the point Microsoft take notice how serious it is.
I love the People Hub feature, and Office Integration, but when there's something not good, I want it to be resolved because I want it to be a good OS for smartphone that can cater for more people, but to be succumbed to it and pretend it's OK.

I wonder who didn't come out of the circle? I have mentioned I given to people of various age, young to old, no necessarily software developer. I've mentioned above, have you think about all those scenarios? Based on your statement, I'm very sure NOT because you don't seem to see how important is those features and how it will affect many other people, because you don't have issue with it.
Personally? I don't really send files via bluetooth, but why am I highlighting this? You see, I'm not talking for myself only. I understand and know how many people will complain about this and how it will affect the reputation of Nokia and Windows Phone. It's for their own good, not mine.
I get NOTHING if they allow bluetooth file transfer in future, they don't pay me anything. I just wish to highlight that if people don't see and highlight the importance of this, there will be many unhappy customers.
Why do we want unhappy customers when it can be avoided?
Did Microsoft really didn't know or they really have very strong and good reasons? If yes, what are the so good and strong reasons that they are risking to face these issues from Customers? Have you think about that?

As for my uncle example, I guess you didn't know. Many of Nokia LOYAL CUSTOMER were actually these people? Have you thought about that? Younger generations? Most of them go for Androids, iPhones. How many actually likes Nokia, moreover with such restrictions and limitations, and people want FACE do you know that, imagine someone using their phone and cannot send file, they will be laugh and they might change phone. Have you seen such case? You might be surprise there is. Some people buy Lumia SIMPLY because they love the Live Tiles. We never know what type of people are there. There're also people who don't want to buy Lumia simply because there is no proper homescreen, it's that simple. So, in business, logically, would you try to find out WHY and then try to make up and get more customers? Or do you say "don't like don't buy?' or 'It's not for you then'? especially when it can be easily done.........

I didn't asked you to be biased, but reading your review I feel you're biased as in trying to "protect" WIndows Phone limitations and restrictions that it's still OK because iPhone also can sell. I mean, that's not the way.... Because iPhone is OK, so others can follow what iPhone did? Sorry, but in my personal opinion, that's just so NOT RIGHT.

My point is not to protect N9, if you read properly, I wish mainly to highlight the importance to notify and acknowldge the drawback of Windows Phone. N9 has it's drawback and I'll listed tons on my previous review, it doesn't have proper homescreen, which it's predecessor have and one of the unique feature,and there're also others.
I'm not a good or qualified reviewer and blogger, but I do find most reviewer or blogger tends to don't talk about the drawback or saying how it's OK for the drawbacks that may affect many people, as in this case, because iPhone sells.
I have few iPhone friends, I can tell you how much they hated to having to rely on iTunes and all those restrictions and limitations, but hey, there's jailbreak. So, it might not necessarily because they are OK, people are not seeign the real picture here.

---

Added on March 19, 2012, 5:43 pmGood point, but sadly people may not understand or see what we're trying to do. Apple has changed and affected the future of smartphones, manufacturers are following and copying.
Making things simple and smooth is GOOD, but there's no need to remove, restrict and limit what an OS can offer. In iOS and Windows Phone OS case, they have done this.

The problem is, TAKE THE GOODS of iOS, LEAVE THE BADS.... DON'T TAKE EVERYTHING.

Stating the bad points of an OS does not mean we hate that OS; If we want the OS to be better, we should help to contribute and make it better.

If I develop a software, I would like honest feedback from the users, what do they feel that is making them inconvenient, frustrated, etc. If the user never feedback honestly how does they expect the software to improve?

With Windows Phone OS, the reliance on Zune is giving many people inconvenience and frustration.
So, is this a GOOD or BAD points. It's as simple as that.
Is it a MUST that Microsoft have to make it rely on Zune? I believe NOT.
Do they want their users to feel inconvenience and unhappy? I believe NOT too?
Do they want to make their user easier? I believe YES, and I believe they THINK Zune will ease the process like iTunes perhaps? But do they understand and look at the entire picture of all types of people, people who don't/seldom use the computer and so on?
Are they targeting ONLY certain people who must have computer, must be internet savvy and so on? If yes, what about Nokia?
There's so many more things to say, but there's are just some of it.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 19 2012, 05:57 PM

Why bullshit? It's wrong to generalize everyone. My parents don't use facebook, my uncle and aunt don't use facebook, many of them are all Nokia users.

Anyway, The statement is not nice to use about suggesting them to go shop and wash. I suggest we don't get carried away. It's not illogical or surprising people don't use internet or computer, but have smartphone.
I know many people that only use computer in their work, and don't want to face computer at home. I know people who hardly login facebook and so on. It's just not right to generalize everyone.

Reading through, I'm surprise despite all that's been said, but on my way back just now, I'm been wondering. I got carried away. I mean, it's your review, you can write whatever you want right?

What I wish to highlight to you, is simply.
1. Smoothness can be judge by cover or understanding. But for most users, it doesn't matter; But you can write whatever you want, just sharing my point of view with you, you can disagree or don't accept. I'm not forcing you, I'm just telling you in the point my understanding and how come it's like this.
2. I read the point about the limitations and restrictions and people are OK with iPhone, so I assume you're assuming people have no issue. I wish to highlight it's not right to say because someone else have no issue then it people shouldn't complain either. I mean, how can you say people shouldn't complains something that's NOT good to many people.

Anyway, just sharing my point of view and to highlight those key points. Sorry for getting carried away and going overboard.

P/S: In a debate or discussion, I strongly believe we shouldn't simply call judge another person a fanboy without understanding. I never say I hate Windows Phone. I hare the limitations and restrictions. I've also mentioned I've used Windows Mobile before and Microsoft development tools. You should say I'm disappointed with Microsoft for the restrictions and limitations. I was looking forward for Windows Phone when they first announce about their revamp and social networks integration, we've been talking about it since N900 forum.
Let's just say, I see potential in Windows Phone OS, but these limitations and restrictions is not good for Windows Phone as it may draw users away. As I said before somewhere, the Mango taste sweet, but there is sour and bitterness as you bite taste more. These can be easily be resolved as it's not hardware limitation, it's just a matter of whether MS willing to open up.

Well, I believe there's many hard feelings generated and it's not good between us Rangers. Although it's selfish for me to say this, hope we can forget about this "issue" and forgive my rudeness and going overboard. I believe nobody wants the product to fail, but we both have our own point of view and ways of doing things.

I believe Windows Phone main target is iOS, thus their limitations and restriction will not really be seen so much as a drawback, plus people will also say iPhone also don't have. Plus, there is one feature, I can't remember which one, it mentioned about iPhone in particular.

Anyway, as how I see it, it's a good direct competition for iPhone, except it lacks of popularity/brand name and many people are actually brand conscious (especially those that carries iPhone) and finally the one major factor, applications (and games).
Currently, Windows Phone loses on both, but it has more to offer, such as XBox Live, Live Tiles, Office Integration and the best yet, People Hub.

Office Integration is amazing with very powerful office software; but it depends if people actually use it. I think most iPhone users don't use it, especially young generations, so if they're targeting iPhone users, this feature will not be the appealing feature.

People Hub however is splendid, it's very deep and comprehensive integration. You can comment, like and tag people directly without going through any Facebook app, which can't be done from N9. When you access a contact, you can view all his/her latest postings/updates from his contacts and also view all his/her pictures and album that were set visible. This is really nice and deserve a BIG thumbs up.
Though, some people actually didn't really like it as much as I thought it would be. Not everyone likes everything integrated; but here's the BEAUTY of it... CHOICE/OPTION... as I said before, they don't like, can choose NOT to use it.
The one thing that it loses to Maemo and MeeGo is in the upload/share feature. In Windows Phone, it's VERY basic, unlike Maemo and MeeGo, which is more detailed with upload to different Albums, creating albums, upload resolutions, etc. Hope Microsoft will implement this feature soon.

There're also grouping of contacts, then you can choose to text or mail to the group, when you access the group updates, you can see the updates from Facebook, etc from this group. Nice!

Despite how good the People Hub is, it has some issue as well:
1. Only support 1 mobile number, 2 home number. This is dumb and it's fixed, not flexible. This phone suppose to be a contact primary application, but it fail if contacts management design. For those who study database design, based on the appearance, it seems they did not normalize this part and choose to define column; Basically what this means is, in order for them to add more types of number, they need to issue software update everytime unless they change the design, which will be a big issue (why? Imagine database is the base structure, if you wish to change the design of it, the impact will be big).

2. Cannot select multiple contact to delete.
After I transfer the contacts using Contacts Transfer, it generated many "<Unnamed Contacts>" with nothing information inside, not sure what is this, possibly due to part (1) above that not able to support multiple mobile number? Or some other reasons.

To cut things short, imagine how to delete all these useless contacts? I have to delete one by one.
The contacts cannot be managed through Zune it seems.
I login into Windows Live, these "<Unnamed Contacts>" is not there, so I can delete from there too.

3. Seems only have 1 way to scroll through the contacts. It doesn't group or allow scroll to alphabet. Have to use search.

Although not everyone like the Live Tiles, but some people really like it and it's the main reason they bought a Windows Phone.
Similarly, there're also simple reason one will not buy a Windows Phone, such as, no bluetooth file transfer.
Some people may not believe, just simple feature. For N900 back then, people can drop their interest just because no 3G Video call, or MMS (got one buy bought then sold off, then later bought again after knowing about the 3rd party version). Or N9, without whatsapp, people are dropping interest or selling off.
Personally, I believe we should be open minded and look broad.
As reviewer and/or blogger, we should look far and wide; It may not concern us because it's not OUR business, the sales gain or drop doesn't affect us. It doesn't matter if we think the feature is not important, we should know how it will affect others, especially the CURRENT users of the company, in this case, Nokia. Their current users have no such limitations and restriction, suddenly loosing SO MANY features, and to face these limitations and restrictions, it a lot to bear.
In this case, it's not right to use iPhone as excuse because they're not iPhone users, they're Nokia Symbian users. Even if iPhone users, it's also not right to use iPhone as excuse; If they wish to switch and experience something better, but come back to square one, with limitations and restrictions, surely it's normal to be disappointed again; moreover, it's not the nature of Microsoft's software.

Anyway, those that were on Lumia 800 forum before would've know of a customer sell off his Lumia because cannot assign SMS tone. We tried to convince him, but he feel embarassed it can't be done and his friends using iPhone can. As I've said before "FACE" is important to many people, and they want to show off their device.
Even if iPhone cannot do, it's also not right to use as excuse because we should improve and move forward, not stay.

Normally, who doesn't want a product to be better and improve? So, naturally if there is a drawback, we should highlight it and acknowledge it, the importance and think about the public, especially current users. In this case, Nokia current users are Symbian users. You can look at Nokia Malaysia Facebook, how people are complaining and disappointed. All these actually can be avoided if Microsoft would remove these restrictions and limitation and make it work like a real smartphone, as how all smartphone should be, not follow what standards Apple set.
I know there're some tricks to overcome people's complains, like if they complain cannot transfer via bluetooth or memory slot, people will use tricks like "Friend, now is what century, still use bluetooth mer? Upload to Cloud storage la", things like this, make them embarass or something like that, which is quite effective. Usually, these are more like salesman tactic/tricks, because they need to market and sell the product, and there is drawback and disadvantage, they will use many ways to overcome this.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 20 2012, 10:23 PM

Yes, I have tried in Hotmail (which I mentioned as Windows Live), it doesn't show the "<UnNamed Contacts>" there.
Didn't use Windows 8, in fact, my home PC still running Windows XP and my office also using Windows XP.
There's many companies out there using Windows XP, there maybe those running even older versions I don't know; Last time I used to do sales, support and repair business, I went to many of my client site, their PC is really old and running old Windows, they're just doing basic document processing, they don't need a high end PC, the computers can be really really old, and even they upgrade.

I can just hope for the best, in my point of view, I believe the top management are not aware the importance. As I know, big companies, multi-level, they see charts, statistics, etc. provided by research, these research can be independent 3rd party company, etc. (this also applies for car, they hire 3rd party research agency and do research).
If it's true, it could be they just want to follow iPhone since it's famous and so on. If not, I don't see reason why the management wants to restrict this and that, put in limitations, etc. If they also use the phone, I'm pretty sure they would want to have more features available, and they would want their users to be satisfied and happy, not receiving complains. When got complains, then again, this is multi-level process which the message may not be correctly interpreted or pass through.

Yup, but I don't know why Microsoft follow exactly. I mean, it's common sense. I don't blame Nokia for this as this OS is controlled by Microsoft. Previously I speak to Thomas regarding these restrictions, it's clear that they knew and they also wish to remove these limitations and restrictions. As Nokia users and their history, it just not right to have these limitations and restrictions.

Beside, Microsoft is not new to mobile phone OS, they've so much experience in Windows Mobile. It just feel weird they didn't see this, it's like they hire people from Apple and develop this. The most obvious reason is the contacts management design, 1 mobile number only and have FIXED number for each type (e.g. only 2 home number). For true contact management, it should be design as flexible, not FIXED. This is like something not done well/proper with the database design.
I've been very curious did Microsoft actually develop this or they give to third party? It's like they're new to mobile industry, fresh graduate?
Moreover, this is already Mango version, not the first version.

It looks like more towards Elop, you can see how much he loves Windows Phone. He's like all for Windows Phone.


I suppose the audio problem they can easily solve through minor update OTA? But not sure if there is OTA update for Windows Phone OS. Or they didn't design well to support minor update? Or the audio update is cannot be easily updated and require major update process?
As I read from GSMArena, the issue been known since early Dec 2011 (or maybe earlier too).

No matter how I see it, I don't see how is Windows Phone OS a better choice if Symbian is the burning platform.
There're Androids, and the highly potential MeeGo.

The reason like only 1 MeeGo device in 2011. It's not valid, it's not like they released many Windows Phone in 2011? And to prove further, they didn't launch N9 in US? And upcoming 808?

Is there is a burning platform for Nokia, it will be the Windows Phone OS as it will affect many of their users.
Despite having many problems with Symbian, there still many people using it especially those that has been loyal and sticking to Nokia. Choosing Windows Phone, is like taking a big risk, trying to gain new (which is not stable) and risk loosing many of their highly potential loyal customers.

But then, it's more like depending on Microsoft, whether they decide to open up, loosen up, remove the restrictions and limitations, make it like how a smartphone OS should be.
It has great features like People Hub and Office integration. Even if people don't use it, there is a CHOICE/OPTION not to use it because IT'S AVAILABLE.
Unlike Bluetooth File Transfer, ZUNE reliane, and other restrictions and limitations... people have NO CHOICE/OPTION, they are FORCED to adapt.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 21 2012, 11:20 AM

Even if they decide to go with Windows Phone OS, there's no need to drop Symbian. The truth quite ugly, how fast Symbian will be drop very soon... sooner than expected, but hope the market response will wake them up and put back Symbian in-line.
They should only decide on Symbian future when their Windows Phone OS has stabilize. It's like running 2 tap water, until Lumia is stable and people have no problem switching and are satisfied, then you can safely decide on the future of Symbian. If software, I think you also know this phase. But they announce much earlier, they don't even know if their users can adapt to Windows Phone. It's like forcing people to adapt or "leave". Well, if the product is really that good, they can do that.

Just like the article mentioned, which I think it's an important point
1 to 1.
Can Windows Phone OS gain back 1 to 1 of Symbian? Or AT LEAST like say 80%?
Now it's just the beginning of Windows Phone, they're already loosing many Symbian customers? That alone is in UK market? Where they were more convince about their Windows Phone?

The 1 to 1 or maintaining current Symbian users is also what I wanted to highlight to my previous debate; It's not right to just tell the current Symbian users, it's not for you, go leave. Bloggers can write that because it's not their business.
For Nokia, these are their customers, can they afford to loose all these customer and tell them, don't like leave "lah", don't buy? Not for you? It's easy for bloggers to write, but it's not this way to tell customer, moreover, it's the CURRENT users. Like I said few times before, this strategy to gain new customer (which is unstable), but can they risk to loosing their CURRENT LOYAL STABLE LONG-TERM Customers?

True, but despite the mismanagement, there're still many loyal customers and the market demand, at least in Asia. Check out Symbian threads alone. To get US/UK region, they can "ADD" Windows Phone, not switch and announce Symbian's funeral. The announcement is like trying to tell people, "You better switch to Windows Phone, like as soon as possible". Before the partnership with Microsoft, Nokia has some great plans going on.
Even if they wish to adopt a new OS into their family, it's very clear and obvious from the response of their customers eveything... they want... Android. So, it still doesn't make sense to me, the adoption of Windows Phone. Budden, they can adopt both anyway, just like other manufacturers, they have Windows phone and Androids, clearly Android is in the lead of the game, their Windows Phone hardly sells, isn't it obviously already. If it's so bad, why switch in hardcore more with Windows Phone? It's more like Nokia trying to save Microsoft or jump together.

The date is not so much to be believed... Just like N9 fate about 2014... With that said, I'm quite glad the 808 is still using Symbian... because... it's like going full force Lumia soon. I believe it's more like forcing people into switch, if Symbian is still selling, people will continue to use Symbian. (unless Windows Phone is really so darn good).
Anyway, it's not about me; it's more like considering about how Nokia will be able to sustain their current loyal customers. Even now, they've create a Symbian hardcore supporters that will attack Lumia users. War within own brand.

Agreed. The merge is pointless and waste of time. It should be done separately. Maemo6 was developing half-way, then suddenly calls for merging; then before it was even near complete, it was abandoned.

From the article Kenny provided, this part is interesting:
"I have reported here on this blog many times, about the resellers hating Microsoft Windows Phone and also punishing Nokia. I have then explained why Microsoft's Skype purchase was the final nail in the coffin which sealed Microsoft's fate in mobile last year. There is no coming back for Microsoft, not with or without Nokia. Meanwhile, Nokia's CEO Stephen Elop has admitted that the retail channel is not supporting Lumia sales. I reported here just last week that in Nokia's home country, Finland, the retail channel so hates Nokia Lumia, they will not show the device even when asked by name, and will sell Androids instead - all this while the stores have the biggest Lumia sales displays. The launch and market reception of Lumia is a disaster. I have reported that press reviews range from the UK's Guardian saying customers should return their Lumias like the reviewer did his; to German newsweekly Der Stern writing that its buyers should take the trouble to drive to Switzerland or Austria to buy the better N9 instead of the Lumia, to reviewers from Australia to India recommending consumers buy Androids instead of the Lumia or that the N9 is indeed a better phone (not sold in India again, haha, so that was not what they wrote in India). And now, Kantar tells us that the early sales of Lumia in the USA are also disappointing."

Seeing above, the response from retails as what you mentioned previously.
And also those "reviewers" comments compare.
If I were to write a review, I wouldn't ask people to buy other device, but at least I would highlight what's the drawback and potential problem that may cause Windows Phone to loose it's customers; Hence, why I keep highlighting this before, it's not about condeming the phone or OS, but this is to highlight and should I say "raise awareness" of the severity until they look into it and make a decision FAST. It's not a hard thing for them to implement at all.

Actually, I mentioned this quite long ago and suggested to Nokia before, they should have plans like porting the purchases to new OS platform when they switch, or at least give some rebates, discount or something like that.

It's simple. If I've been supporting Nokia with Symbian, now Nokia wishes me to adapt to Windows Phone. Why should I switch if I'm loosing everything and starts fresh? When I can... venture into Android or iOS with better games and less problems. With iOS, I don't have to worry about Apple dropping iOS? With Android, I can easily switch to Samseng, HTC, LG, etc. and my purchases still there.

It's not optimize, but I feel it's more stable and reliable than Symbian. At least for me; when I need to make a call ANYTIME, I can rely on N9 anytime and it's easy and fast to access to calls or SMS. But Symbian sometimes it can be slow a bit to respond, Android is the worst....

I won't blame MeeGo much, but Nokia in not putting enough effort and manpower. It's just like Maemo, it has so much potential, a powerful Linux OS in a mobile device, with flexible Desktop (not your typical homescreen), flexible customizable widgets (e.g. Queen Beacon Widgets), excellent browser where you can activate mouse icon, and just so much more. If you use it, and look at the development update progress, it's very clear that they're not putting enough effort and manpower to this. Maemo and MeeGo is like their backup, adopted baby, thus not given enough attention.

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Added on March 21, 2012, 12:50 pmYup, that's what I also said previously, go multi-platform. But their plans of going purely Windows Phone OS is suspicious. Abandon their MeeGo project despite invested so much? And Symbian despite their Belle has shown improvements and some users are actually happy with it?
Choose WP instead when most preferred Android?
It's all just doesn't make sense and too suspicious; Hence, back then when the partnership was announced, rumors circulating was, "infiltrate and attack from the inside and finally..."


This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 21 2012, 12:50 PM

N9 has 1GB amount of ram. I think it will be a plus point as I notice Android consume and requires a lot of ram. SE doesn't have dual core device until recently, their Androids only packs 512MB of ram and is suffering, especially when you customize the homescreen and install more services. It frequently restarts the launcher, etc. I hate when the OS gets too smart in killing apps, but there's just not enough ram.

As a phone, one thing is should do it, the basic phone feature and home should always easily accessible. When we press HOME, it should immediately go back, just like iPhone, it doesn't matter if the apps lag or not; Manufacturer's need to know the priority of a phone is the phone function, and also the home, we should easily go back to home and easily access to our contacts and make phone calls, etc.
Most people complains is when they receive a call when they're doing something and the phone just lags and cannot respond immediately, or when they want to make calls half way or access SMS, it lags and respond slow. These are the critical and most important factors.


Yes, Nokia is "PaiKia", Samsung is "Samseng Kia", hehehe.
and now we have Lumia
S: Ni hp ape?
N: Ni Nokia Lumia.
S: Bukan I mia lah, I tanya ni hp ape?
N: Betul lah tu! Ni Nokia Lumia lah...
S: Bukan la, I guna Samseng mia.
N: #@#@#$%#...

Yeap, it's pointless, it's just to release our "unhappiness" lol
Anyway, for bloggers and reviewers, what they write can become important especially when their blogs or article are famous, so what they write can really contribute to the decision or changes. Hence, why I state that they should be considerate and think more about everyone; For this case, Nokia, they should consider current users most importantly, not asking them to leave or say things like, it's not suitable for them; more so, when these things are actually easily solvable. It's just requires Microsoft attention and take a "small" action. These are not major change or something serious, it's a simple modification of feature, and it doesn't take a lot of effort at all, just a matter of "management decision".

After they did this to all Maemo, MeeGo and Symbian team/staff, it's hard to turn back and call back. Even back then, N900 gain many positive reviews, many countries wanted it, the launch in HK was big event, India local Linux mags write more than 7 pages about it with so many information, and that was like only covering half of it. In around the web, people are sourcing the device which Nokia didn't plan to release. At first, they never plan to launch in Asia Pacific, few Malaysian inquire including me, some mailed to Nokia UK and later received reply that it will not be released in APAC. With that, I have no choice to go for AP, and after some time, they finally decided to launch in APAC. Before that, there're AP sets selling in LYN for above RM3K.
Anyway, in maemotalk forum, there're few senior user who works for Nokia and some is ex-Nokia US staff.
I mean, with all these and also the great community in maemotalk forum developing so many potential and FREE apps for Maemo; I don't see or get the reason for them to abandon it, there is great and skilled developers there and willing to contribute for FREE.
Where do you find a big community of people which are skilled and readily available? The platform is promising, the resources are available, it's just whether they willing to put in effort and invest.
To me, it just doesn't make sense. With Windows Phone, they're like trying to source and attract more developers.

And for Symbian, Nokia has local development team in few countries. What will happen to these development team? I'm not so sure, but I was told Nokia will have one for Windows Phone, so I suppose these people will need to switch to Windows Phone development.

Application lag is acceptable, the phone UI, home UI should always be available and fast, like iOS; That's why reason why iOS has little complain, most people get annoyed when they phone rings, and the phone hangs or respond very slowly, they can't answer, or SMS.
They should set high ram requirement or do something, then put home and phone UI in highest priority or always loaded. By right it shouldn't never be killed, I often see the home launcher restart, but seeing the low ram available,no choice, but for general users, they don't understand why and will complain. Even if we understand or know, it's still annoying. Using Android with high ram like 768MB, there're usually over 200MB free ram available.
With 512MB, there're like less than 100MB available, if you have more services running, it'll be like around 50MB available; When you run a game or app, it will kill those process to get more ram.

Anyway, to make things simple, since it's a phone, the phone processes should be on high priority and always accessible anytime; This is will better user experience and less complain. This also mean the same for HOME, as they need to go to HOME first before accessing to phone. In either case, HOME should still be quickly easily access, this also will improve the user experience, just like iOS. But because the home is killed, when you press HOME, it will restart the home launcher and you need to wait, and it will slowly populate the home. For technical users, they know what's going on, but for most general users, they don't, but whichever the case, it's not a nice experience. Thus for Android, a higher ram will give much better experience; Using my 512MB vs another 768MB ram Android, it makes a whole lots of difference.

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Added on March 21, 2012, 3:34 pmYup, SE Timescape, it's nice, but their device has low ram....
e.g. Xperia Play - where's the fun when it always lag.
What's the point when people don't use Timescape as the device cannot support it properly?


True, not very smooth not to mentioned the providers like Sony, Samseng, HTC all have their own process or services which will contribute further to take away the ram.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 21 2012, 03:34 PM

True, MeeGo Harmattan was supposedly Maemo successor; Those Maemo users, developers is looking forward to it; then they're all being given a premature born baby to take care and support "again", after so long waiting, history repeats itself, DeJaVu.

Yup, it's very obvious, they know people will go for N9 instead. Since the same applied for 808 which are not competition to Lumia devices? But I guess it may affect the sales of Lumia which is their primary market in US?

Anyway, there's no turning back, and Windows Phone has potential and interesting points especially the People Hub and Office integration, but the restrictions and limitations doesn't go hand in hand with it. It's like giving something good, then at the same time, giving something that turns people off. A sweet Mango that is also sour and bitter.
From previous Nokia feedback, it seems they can't do anything (as it they have tried) when I mentioned these restrictions and limitations. So... just can hope it will change soon.

Yeah, there's lag but I suppose in comparison, the severity and how often it happens is way better than other OS. With iPhone, if you're playing games for example, if you need to get out and make a quicky call, you just pres the GOD button, the one button to rule them all. You'll be back to the home in no time smoothly and give a nice animation, then you can make a quick call and go back to your game. Most of the time, there is no issue. There maybe hiccups sometimes but in comparison the experience is way better hence why people always complain about lag in other OS.
Or let's say, receive SMS, you want to reply, you jump out of the game, access the messaging and reply, then goes back to your game.

Symbian have improve much from last time but the experience I suppose is still not as pleasant as iPhone; I only use and experience iPhone a little and it gives user the experience and reliability. With Symbian, with Belle, it's much improved over previous.

I agree, in terms of calls, messaging and contacts management, Symbian is still one of the best, if not the best. But somehow, it seems Nokia didn't implement this "benefit" (Contacts Management) into Maemo and MeeGo, which is kind of weird.


Android is worst... especially if you have low ram device, 512MB isn't exacly low, but for Andorid it is. But it also depends on the customization and what process you have running. If you want smoother experience, don't install those processes and have more free available ram... but then it kind of defeat the purpose of having a smarpthone when you can't install this and that.
For me, I understand what I have to bear if I want to install those apps with background services running and consuming memory; but for others, they may not know and they will suffer with the device.

Anyway, with enough free ram available, the experience can really be a lot better.

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Added on March 21, 2012, 4:50 pmIt's good because it limit what you can run and use. Which is OK for me, but NOT be too smart to close the app for me without asking my permission. Where are the manners? Imagine if the app is a word document which I've type very long?
Similarly, IE tabs only allows up to 6 tabs, if you click on the link and open in new tab, the smart OS will decide to close the first tab for you. Again, no manners.

It should:
1. Ask user if they choose continue/OK, which app/tab will be closed, or cancel it.
2. Some people will say, "aiyah, this is annoying". But think further, this can be set as option in settings, "always ask" or auto-close, etc.

They can push it to 8, but here's the catch, device with not enough ram may not support it.
Just as 256MB ram, will not be able to support 5 apps multi-tasking and there is a limit to how many ram is allocated to each task, if not wrong, below 90MB? Again, this overly smart OS will decide to close for you without asking because the OS is a smart OS, and it consider the user as a dumb user
So, although Lumia 800 have 512MB is enough, but more is always better, it means ready for future requirements.

Anyway, hope MS will implement something like above, the options.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 21 2012, 04:50 PM

Already read this slightly earlier, doesn't seems any useful. We should think about Nokia current customers.
As previous article by Kenny, can Nokia gain back it's customer 1 to 1?
They already lost 1/3 of their customer since Lumia, in UK alone, where they have higher hopes for Windows Phone OS?

In Asia, there're many customer who may not be able to adopt with the restrictions and limitations (not just Asia actually). Note, I did not mention changes. People can try new ones, but not at the expense of inconveniences, frustration and unhappiness.
If you take some time to read through the article Kenny posted, you will read about more interesting point.
The above article, never seems to touch what may draw customer away and how to improve Windows Phone sales, it's more like a believe that it will success. To success, means you need to make sure your customer are happy/satisfied and have as little complain as possible. At current rate, it's already pretty bad, but mainly it can be resolved if Microsoft could just open up, loosen up, remove these restrictions and limitations, make a true smartphone OS. The stability and reliability is great, the People Hub and Office Integration is amazing, but they need to take care of the little things that can be what turns people down/away.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 21 2012, 05:22 PM

No, but other OS, so far it won't close for you except Android which is also annoying. I type half way, go back, it's restarted. Windows Phone OS worst, where's my app? Missing from the multi-tasking view.

Other phones like Symbian, Maemo, MeeGo, it doesn't close for you; but because no restriction on how many you can open, it can affect the performance on Maemo and MeeGo especially. Not sure about Symbian as I never tried it before.

Windows Phone doesn't allow open anymore tab when there is already 6, the "+" tab is disabled, but you can clikc on a click to open in new tab.
Actually no big issue, MS can easily add in an option for user to decide or just use AUTO (or "recommended" settings). This is like "things to improve" feature.

Push 8 apps, maybe depend on the ram consumption on each app, as with 256mb device, there's a limitation on ram for each app, if exceed if not wrong it will close it. But that's the limitations, who ask the manufacturer to skimp on ram. Like Lumia 800, it could have 1GB ram like the N9, but the decide to give less since it meet the requirement. But nothing serious, 512MB is fine, it works well, no complains; it's just "nice to have" more and getting more value for what you pay (including for future requirement).

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Added on March 21, 2012, 5:43 pmNah, didn't say she's helping Nokia improve sales; Just saying she's a believer that Windows Phone can success; Initially I believe too when it was first announce they will revamp Windows Mobile and emphasize on Social Networks integration, back then I've experience SNS in N900 so I know how appealing it is, but I never thought they will put in limitations and restrictions, moreover from Microsoft.

As I said, if the product wants to be more successful, we need to identify early, what can turns people down or off, and can it be avoided? In this case, YES. But seem they didn't and go ahead with the restrictions and limitations, which have no good reasons as now they have to face many complains and unsatisfied customers.

Anyway, it's her point of view and how she felt about the phone. For me, I can live without bluetooth file transfer, but as I said, it's not about me; moreover, why remove this feature when it can cause many unsatisfied customers.

As a reviewer (especially famous one), it will be helpful if they write about these restrictions and limitations, because it will take more attention and awareness of Nokia and Microsoft. For us, we can write thousands of times and it may not get any attention or priority.





This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 21 2012, 05:43 PM

WP didn't have recently used list right? Anyway, as previous I mentioned, it's not serious but will be a nice improvement feature; If somehow so happen you have writing a document or maybe SMS, and the app got close because you didn't notice there was already 5 apps running then it can be frustrating and not a nice experience.
I'm not sure if it will kill the word app or SMS, as I notice, it won't kill off my IE no matter how many apps I open, it will close other app, IE will be in priority and will not be closed. So this can consider as a positive thing.
It will close Office app, but not sure if you have words/excel/powerpoint running, will it close, need to test it.

Yea, that's what I meant about Maemo/MeeGo, they have no limit, so the user needs to be educated and aware. One may argue this can cause problem... well, as I said before, software is flexible, they can actually add a option in settings, allow how many apps to run and what to do if user try to run more app, what to do when an app is not responding or consuming a lot of memory, and so on. They can set by default the recommended and the user can customize it... Software is all about how being creative and making it flexible.

True, we don't know. Just saying that it'll be nice to have. There's no problem with 512MB, it's running smoothly and well, but it's just a "nice to have".

I know you've mentioned it's not based on Windows Mobile. As a smartphone OS, or experience they had, it's like a standard feature or common feature used by many. It's only thanks to Apple, they set new standards and people starts to try to follow it (I highly suspect the management just follow blindly because it's famous).

Many of the standard feature or commonly use, known feature, especially from their past experience, it "should" be there, moreover as a smartphone. Not providing them just basically means the same, and it will "affect" many users, especially their previous Windows Mobile users, and now partnership with Nokia, the Symbian users.
It's a simple thing, and it should be added in and imagine this:
If Windows Phone OS have all these "basic" commonly used and "sort of" standard feature; What do you think Windows Phone will be today?
1. We won't be having these discussion on the restriction and limitation.
2. Symbian users have smoother and less problem in transition/change.
3. Less complains from users, good for both Nokia and Microsoft.
Take note, I didn't say none, but less; There won't be a perfect device, sure will have customer that dislike or doesn't suit, but the key point here is, to cater for more customer and reduce the complains, more satisfied customers; which in current case, I've repeated many times, is easily solved, but it's just a mere "management decisions".

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Added on March 21, 2012, 6:32 pmNot sure what she will write, but in my opinion, there's no need to ditch a product; Reviewers should highlight the "drawbacks" of the device and help to "raise awareness" to the manufacturer in CONSTRUCTIVE ways. Let them how what is the impact, the severity and how it can be easily solved or avoided.

Some people may look at what I write as a negative point, but if they read carefully, I'm trying to convey it constructively, I give scenario and stories, examples, to show how it will affect some people and so on. There's no perfect device, but to make a better device, the users need to feedback on what are the bads and try to get it resolved.
If we ignore or say, it's ok, not so serious for us, then how will we expect the things to change and improve for the better. I mean, everyone wants a better improved OS right? Or do they?

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 21 2012, 06:32 PM

Haha, for me, I prefer to have options, to kill or not.
And if it wants to auto, it should know which should not be simply killed, like what WP did on IE, it doesn't get killed, which I kinda like it. I tested it many times, the IE won't get killed, interesting, but the tabs will. Anyway, this can be seen as future improvements on the product.

Let's hope she will highlight the importance of need; It'll need these famous and well-known reviewers or writers to push and raise awareness. They say 1 word is better and more effective than many unknown people say thousands of millions of words.

LoL! Amazing after previously what I've wrote. It's obvious now you want to do something back, it's OK. I've already admitted I gone overboard and got carried away with your posting, but you didn't even want to admit your part or anything else. It's ok, then you come back with this. I kinda knew your motive but I just reply your posting anyway just to see whether you really get over with it already or not.

Anyway, did I say anything wrong about her article? Tell me. Read back what I said again in rational and calm manner.

Regardless it's first impression or not, don't tell me she doesn't know the reliance on Zune, no bluetooth file transfer, etc. When we first hands on Lumia, I already notice many drawback and already asking the Nokia staff.
And what I wrote is simply the article is not really useful, that's all, that's my opinion because I don't see anything useful (well, at least for me), it's more like a happy read and how she think and become more firm with her believe; but for me, I don't agree with it (and I have my own right too). I can disagree, You can agree. We share our point of view and thought. For me, if it wants to be successful, I've said before it needs to resolve the issues it has, I didn't said there's no hope so don't jump to conclusions and so on.

To talk about and highlight a drawback is NORMAL and it's GOOD. You need to differentiate what is between bashing and feedback. Bashing is when people complain without reasoning and just plain talking negatively like to damage the reputation. First impression can always have the Advantage and Disadvange, or Likes and Dislikes.
In the article, it's more like to show how she feels about her Feb 2011 believe and that she was right about how she felt. I didn't say she was wrong to say she was right, I'm merely highlighting she never mentioned these drawbacks. Budden, she don't want to write also not her fault, I was just merely highlighting, not blaming.

Anyway, think whatever you want. After so many discussion in this thread, if you still wish to think negatively on what I've said, then fine, let me be the bad person. If not, then I'm sorry to have misjudge you.

I'm sure N9 has no problems, even N900, Nokia Conversations themselves posted a video, running 24 apps and still going smooth.

Yea, I know; App-Switching style, but for WP7, the IE should have the true multi-tasking ability, it will continue to load in the background, and there's some services which can provide background services feature, it will allow the app to run in the background.

Talking about the drawbacks is not bashing. Or do you mean, we cannot say anything bad about the product?
If not, please describe the proper way, which YOU think is the proper one.