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Discussion FA 'kickstart' Campaign against Racism?, Has it the Will to stamp out Racism?

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Hevrn
post Dec 26 2011, 04:23 PM

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Clearly been a very informative read browsing thru the topic. I'm going to try my best and stand on neutral ground to not let my allegiances get in the way of commenting rationally.

I, like many others, was shocked to hear about the 8 game punishment. I can understand why lots of ppl felt hard done by, or that the punishment seemed too harsh for the issue. All I can say is, the FA has a record of coming to conclusions without applying proper common sense, and many clubs in the league have been on the receiving end of their stupidity. My observation of the issue was that if indeed the word Suarez used was not intended to be racial in any manner, then why the ban? Words get exchanged in the heat of matches, some hardly complimentary. Suarez has come out to admit the word he used. Evra has declared that he didnt feel Suarez to be a racist. From what I remember of the game, Evra was clearly rattled and unhappy with Suarez' conduct during the game, and I've never seen him get so easily riled up before. Maybe he wasn't aware that Suarez didnt mean to make a reference to his color and heritage. I dont know.

But what clearly can be seen is, the FA is eager to show its stance on kicking racism out of the league. If anything, Suarez might have been made a scapegoat. Whatever happens out of Terry's case is going to get ppl drawing comparisons. Are they going to apply double standards (as they've always done) on such a sensitive issue? I'm not going to take any sides on the issue, all I can say is, racism is a very serious matter, and if you want to accuse someone of being a racist, you very bloody well have concrete evidence to back u up. Then, if proven true, ensure that severe punishment is handed out. The FA has not convinced anyone enuff that wat they've decided is backed by any required substance.

This post has been edited by Hevrn: Dec 26 2011, 04:24 PM
REDShaun
post Dec 26 2011, 05:01 PM

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QUOTE(Mak_ko @ Dec 26 2011, 03:07 PM)
What I meant was no one will know what Suarez himself thought of in the heat of the moment, whether if he had the intent or not. Put yourself in suarez's situation, in that situation where he and evra had that argument, the odds of suarez calling him negrito in a derogatory term is the more likely, which I believe is what the panel agreed on.

If FA panel found it without reasonable doubt, liverpool will never have the option to appeal. So I don't know where you get that from. If FA panel found it without reasonable doubt, liverpool will never have the option to appeal. So I don't know where you get that from.

Regarding Terry, it is an interesting one. Bear in mind Terry's case is based on a criminal charge. I personally think FA will wait for outcome of the prosecution before handing out further punishment. If he indeed is found guilty, the FA will need to punish him accordingly.
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I am sorry but this I do not agree. The panel is SUPPOSE to provide a verdict beyond any reasonable doubt. Racism like so many of "you's" has so vehemently stated that it has no place in our world is a very very damning verdict if you were suppose to find someone guilty of it. it's almost akin to major crimes like rape or abuse or (dare i say it) murder.

If I want to label someone or have the world label them a racist it must and will always be the utmost importance to find that person guilty beyond any reasonable doubt barring which if there is no concrete evidence that backs that verdict, it should not have been given at all.

So to even allow an appeal speaks volumes for me to actually say that there may be a chance that "we got this wrong". so seriously i wish people here would be less hypocritical in what they say they believe in and condone an action that says otherwise - like support a verdict that was unfairly given. blush.gif
Duke Red
post Dec 26 2011, 05:06 PM

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It remains to be seen if the official report will be released and if it will be, I have to question why it's taking so long? I reckon the concrete evidence the FA is basing their decision on will be found here. The only thing we know for a fact is that Suarez used the "N" word but I'm not even sure which one. I'm also unsure what else he said along with that word because it should be relevant to the context in which it was used. The FA have so far kept mum over the release of the report in question.
REDShaun
post Dec 26 2011, 05:13 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Dec 26 2011, 05:06 PM)
It remains to be seen if the official report will be released and if it will be, I have to question why it's taking so long? I reckon the concrete evidence the FA is basing their decision on will be found here. The only thing we know for a fact is that Suarez used the "N" word but I'm not even sure which one. I'm also unsure what else he said along with that word because it should be relevant to the context in which it was used. The FA have so far kept mum over the release of the report in question.
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Which leaves me to think that the longer they take the more uncertainty it would generate. unless the FA is looking for cheap publicity it would be the best interest of all parties how they came to a final conclusion that has made a professional player and human being labelled as a racist that he is not.
kucingmainan
post Dec 26 2011, 05:23 PM

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suarez racist. ibrahim ali also.
REDShaun
post Dec 26 2011, 05:27 PM

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QUOTE(kucingmainan @ Dec 26 2011, 05:23 PM)
suarez racist. ibrahim ali also.
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ah, the usual fan, leaving out the most obvious choice which is JTerry blush.gif
boxsystem
post Dec 26 2011, 05:28 PM

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To be fair, I'm not sure why is the full report is not being published yet. One thing is for sure that the FA made their decision based on the independent committee's word. To me, if they're willing to listen to an appeal, it's only fair. Which same goes with Mackie case back then.

Now, it would be interesting to know what will happen to Terry. If they're putting him on an another scale of punishment(like they always do with English men) even when there are more concrete evidence, I do think, not only Liverpool FC, every single person to question their decision.
IcyDarling
post Dec 26 2011, 07:40 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Dec 26 2011, 10:34 AM)
Has there been a heavier punishment in football? Racism is not new to English football and there have been prior cases involving English footballers who grew up in an environment where race is a sensitive topic, get away scot free. But now that this case has been given so much attention by the media, people think we should send Suarez to the gallows for it. You can't give out a sentence without referring to prior cases, drawing comparisons between them or fans would be demanding the death penalty for rival players.

If the FA were serious about eliminating racism, why not learn from South America? The first black superstar for England only emerged in the 1980's in the form of John Barnes and he had bananas thrown at him, in the bloody 80's ffs! By then South American teams were already integrated. Instead the FA are imposing their moral compass on countries where racism isnt as apparent. Hmm


Added on December 26, 2011, 10:35 am

Thanks for proving the last point I made. Where did I say the bolded bit again or any bit for that matter? Not being able to read, I can see why you think it's a waste of time. Disclaimer : "For mature audiences only".
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It started from whether he said that word or not. Before this, you all claimed that it was only Evra's accusation. When Suarez admitted he used the word, you all say its a friendly gesture in South America. And when that itself was cleared out, now you are talking about how much attention the media is giving to liverpool?

Not having a heavier punishment in football is not a valid excuse at all. In any aspect of the life or the world , new things come into place. New laws and orders is being applied. If the FA is serious about eradicating racism in football, there would have been a big discussion on the severity of Suarez's punishment. Having just 8 match ban is nothing, nothing compared to the punishment others get for raising sensitive racist issue. (does the ISA ring a bell?) It is quite clear why racism issue is not a small matter. A lot of countries have died off because of racism itself. Would England had taken this as a serious matter? yes, they would. The premier league itself has attracted so many players from so many continents of the world. If racism had not been carefully revised, how would the country run? If they let Suarez off just like that, what would others be thinking? Racism is just a small matter and they can afford to spew racist-orientated insults at any race or religion they don't like?
likeicare
post Dec 26 2011, 07:45 PM

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QUOTE(IcyDarling @ Dec 26 2011, 07:40 PM)
It started from whether he said that word or not. Before this, you all claimed that it was only Evra's accusation. When Suarez admitted he used the word, you all say its a friendly gesture in South America. And when that itself was cleared out, now you are talking about how much attention the media is giving to liverpool?

Not having a heavier punishment in football is not a valid excuse at all. In any aspect of the life or the world , new things come into place. New laws and orders is being applied. If the FA is serious about eradicating racism in football, there would have been a big discussion on the severity of Suarez's punishment. Having just 8 match ban is nothing, nothing compared to the punishment others get for raising sensitive racist issue. (does the ISA ring a bell?) It is quite clear why racism issue is not a small matter. A lot of countries have died off because of racism itself. Would England had taken this as a serious matter? yes, they would. The premier league itself has attracted so many players from so many continents of the world. If racism had not been carefully revised, how would the country run? If they let Suarez off just like that, what would others be thinking? Racism is just a small matter and they can afford to spew racist-orientated insults at any race or religion they don't like?
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I am not trying to flame but this is absolutely true man.
Mak_ko
post Dec 26 2011, 08:03 PM

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QUOTE(REDShaun @ Dec 26 2011, 05:01 PM)
I am sorry but this I do not agree. The panel is SUPPOSE to provide a verdict beyond any reasonable doubt. Racism like so many of "you's" has so vehemently stated that it has no place in our world is a very very damning verdict if you were suppose to find someone guilty of it. it's almost akin to major crimes like rape or abuse or (dare i say it) murder.

If I want to label someone or have the world label them a racist it must and will always be the utmost importance to find that person guilty beyond any reasonable doubt barring which if there is no concrete evidence that backs that verdict, it should not have been given at all.

So to even allow an appeal speaks volumes for me to actually say that there may be a chance that "we got this wrong". so seriously i wish people here would be less hypocritical in what they say they believe in and condone an action that says otherwise - like support a verdict that was unfairly given. blush.gif
*
Well, even death penalties can be appealed to a lesser punishment sweat.gif

Then we shall agree to disagree on this matter wink.gif
Duke Red
post Dec 27 2011, 09:16 AM

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QUOTE(IcyDarling @ Dec 26 2011, 07:40 PM)
It started from whether he said that word or not. Before this, you all claimed that it was only Evra's accusation. When Suarez admitted he used the word, you all say its a friendly gesture in South America. And when that itself was cleared out, now you are talking about how much attention the media is giving to liverpool?

Not having a heavier punishment in football is not a valid excuse at all. In any aspect of the life or the world , new things come into place. New laws and orders is being applied. If the FA is serious about eradicating racism in football, there would have been a big discussion on the severity of Suarez's punishment. Having just 8 match ban is nothing, nothing compared to the punishment others get for raising sensitive racist issue. (does the ISA ring a bell?) It is quite clear why racism issue is not a small matter. A lot of countries have died off because of racism itself. Would England had taken this as a serious matter? yes, they would. The premier league itself has attracted so many players from so many continents of the world. If racism had not been carefully revised, how would the country run? If they let Suarez off just like that, what would others be thinking? Racism is just a small matter and they can afford to spew racist-orientated insults at any race or religion they don't like?
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So you mean to say some of the things you've mentioned aren't true? It isn't a friendly gesture in South America? The media aren't giving this case an fair amount of attention? One can only comment on issues as facts and information is released until we all take a vow to comment after all facts are on the table, and in this case, they aren't all there yet. I could just as easily say that Evra did the same thing by first claiming that Suarez said it 10 times, that is was caught on camera and that Andre Marriner heard it but "facts" change as we go along don't they? Evra has himself said he doesn't think Suarez is racist so unless you think otherwise what is your rationale behind capital punishment?

Comparing the FA to the ISA is valid? The latter was formed to combat communist insurgence and has since been redundant so much so they are tasked with locking citizens up and treating them like they are communists. It is draconian in nature and has drawn flak from human rights as well as political parties. I urge you to draw a better comparison.

So tell me then, what would a fair penalty be? Send him back to where he came from? Ie the "kalau kau tak suka, keluar", approach, ban him for life? Whatever you choose, what is the basis for your decision? How did you come about the severity of your punishment? There needs to be some precedence. New laws are enacted but not during a "trial".

Racism is not a small matter and no one is saying it is. The difference here is you believe he's guilty whether he meant it or not (seeing as no one can read minds) in a racist fashion. I can see why you brought the ISA up now. They dont necessarily need proof either. All they need is to suspect you of something to detain you. I believe he isn't racist and therefore didn't intended to label him a "slave". The FA is after all looking at intent, no?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Dec 27 2011, 09:24 AM
IcyDarling
post Dec 27 2011, 09:32 AM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Dec 27 2011, 09:16 AM)
So you mean to say some of the things you've mentioned aren't true? It isn't a friendly gesture in South America? The media aren't giving this case an fair amount of attention? One can only comment on issues as facts and information is released until we all take a vow to comment after all facts are on the table, and in this case, they aren't all there yet. I could just as easily say that Evra did the same thing by first claiming that Suarez said it 10 times, that is was caught on camera and that Andre Marriner heard it but "facts" change as we go along don't they? Evra has himself said he doesn't think Suarez is racist so unless you think otherwise what is your rationale behind capital punishment?

Comparing the FA to the ISA is valid? The latter was formed to combat communist insurgence and has since been redundant so much so they are tasked with locking citizens up and treating them like they are communists. It is draconian in nature and has drawn flak from human rights as well as political parties. I urge you to draw a better comparison.

So tell me then, what would a fair penalty be? Send him back to where he came from? Ie the "kalau kau tak suka, keluar", approach, ban him for life? Whatever you choose, what is the basis for your decision? How did you come about the severity of your punishment? There needs to be some precedence. New laws are enacted but not during a "trial".

Racism is not a small matter and no one is saying it is. The difference here is you believe he's guilty whether he meant it or not (seeing as no one can read minds) in a racist fashion. I can see why you brought the ISA up now. They dont necessarily need proof either. All they need is to suspect you of something to detain you. I believe he isn't racist and therefore didn't intended to label him a "slave". The FA is after all looking at intent, no?
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I did not say it's not a friendly gesture back in South America. In fact , people call black negros everywhere all the time. What I meant was in WHAT context it was used. I dare you to walk to NYC find a complete black stranger and say * in front of him. You wouldn't because even you know in this context it's a racist and rude gesture. Exactly what I meant. Suarez might be calling negrito everyday in South America, but do you really think it was towards everyone? Surely it's actually just a term used with friends and mates.

If FA is serious about eradicating racism , then the punishment should be severe enough that people take note of it.

And I brought up ISA because i was trying to relate that racism is actually something very severe, severe enough to damage the country. If you are thrown into ISA for racism suspect, then racism must be a very serious case. How is Suarez's brain quick enough to think of how to dribble pass defenders but not bright enough to not risk having racism remarks on the field?
Duke Red
post Dec 27 2011, 09:57 AM

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QUOTE(IcyDarling @ Dec 27 2011, 09:32 AM)
I did not say it's not a friendly gesture back in South America. In fact , people call black negros everywhere all the time. What I meant was in WHAT context it was used. I dare you to walk to NYC find a complete black stranger and say * in front of him. You wouldn't because even you know in this context it's a racist and rude gesture. Exactly what I meant. Suarez might be calling negrito everyday in South America, but do you really think it was towards everyone? Surely it's actually just a term used with friends and mates.

If FA is serious about eradicating racism , then the punishment should be severe enough that people take note of it.

And I brought up ISA because i was trying to relate that racism is actually something very severe, severe enough to damage the country. If you are thrown into ISA for racism suspect, then racism must be a very serious case. How is Suarez's brain quick enough to think of how to dribble pass defenders but not bright enough to not risk having racism remarks on the field?
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I understand it is in the context it was used which is why I've said twice before that I'd like to know what else he said. He surely didn't just say, "negrito". Surely what else was said affects the context in which it was said. By issuing the max ban known to the Premiership, the FA is suggesting he's racist hence all the racist chants etc. thing is, do you believe he's racist?

Some things are instinctive. People say he's been in Europe for 4 years not taking into consideration the 20 years before that. Now I lived in Australia for the better part of two years. I don't wear shoes into my house and I still sound like your typical Malaysian. Don't take my examples literally. Most would agree that it was a heated moment and in the heat of the moment we do sometimes react instinctively. Reactions like anger are instinctive. You don't decide to by angry in such incidences. So he used a word that was 2nd nature to him. Doesn't mean he meant it as a racial slur.
REDShaun
post Dec 27 2011, 11:17 AM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Dec 27 2011, 09:57 AM)
I understand it is in the context it was used which is why I've said twice before that I'd like to know what else he said. He surely didn't just say, "negrito". Surely what else was said affects the context in which it was said. By issuing the max ban known to the Premiership, the FA is suggesting he's racist hence all the racist chants etc. thing is, do you believe he's racist?

Some things are instinctive. People say he's been in Europe for 4 years not taking into consideration the 20 years before that. Now I lived in Australia for the better part of two years. I don't wear shoes into my house and I still sound like your typical Malaysian. Don't take my examples literally. Most would agree that it was a heated moment and in the heat of the moment we do sometimes react instinctively. Reactions like anger are instinctive. You don't decide to by angry in such incidences. So he used a word that was 2nd nature to him. Doesn't mean he meant it as a racial slur.
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Concepts like these are blind to anyone not willing to see.

All people see now is Suarez is a racist. Even when people say they don't think he is, there is still a bunch of hypocritical louts running back to their forums to state that he is and insist the ban is justified.

In summary, no one plans to get angry, it's instinctive. I get angry I use back my cantonese dialect to swear at your face. So yeah, I guess I should be locked up when I say "diuleilomo" in UK since it is a bigger sin that i intended if i meant it in English. He use his own dialect as he says it and he was crucified for it saying it was racially intentional hence naming him a racist for the world to see.
IcyDarling
post Dec 27 2011, 11:20 AM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Dec 27 2011, 09:57 AM)
I understand it is in the context it was used which is why I've said twice before that I'd like to know what else he said. He surely didn't just say, "negrito". Surely what else was said affects the context in which it was said. By issuing the max ban known to the Premiership, the FA is suggesting he's racist hence all the racist chants etc. thing is, do you believe he's racist?

Some things are instinctive. People say he's been in Europe for 4 years not taking into consideration the 20 years before that. Now I lived in Australia for the better part of two years. I don't wear shoes into my house and I still sound like your typical Malaysian. Don't take my examples literally. Most would agree that it was a heated moment and in the heat of the moment we do sometimes react instinctively. Reactions like anger are instinctive. You don't decide to by angry in such incidences. So he used a word that was 2nd nature to him. Doesn't mean he meant it as a racial slur.
*
It doesn't matter what follows. The term itself used is already very insulting. The context which i meant is that Evra is not a close mate of Suarez, how could he have used that word to refer to Evra?


Added on December 27, 2011, 11:22 am
QUOTE(REDShaun @ Dec 27 2011, 11:17 AM)
Concepts like these are blind to anyone not willing to see.

All people see now is Suarez is a racist. Even when people say they don't think he is, there is still a bunch of hypocritical louts running back to their forums to state that he is and insist the ban is justified.

In summary, no one plans to get angry, it's instinctive. I get angry I use back my cantonese dialect to swear at your face. So yeah, I guess I should be locked up when I say "diuleilomo" in UK since it is a bigger sin that i intended if i meant it in English. He use his own dialect as he says it and he was crucified for it saying it was racially intentional hence naming him a racist for the world to see.
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You swear??? But I thought you go to church every week!!

And what does that tells you about going to church every sunday?

This post has been edited by IcyDarling: Dec 27 2011, 11:22 AM
REDShaun
post Dec 27 2011, 11:35 AM

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QUOTE(IcyDarling @ Dec 27 2011, 11:20 AM)
It doesn't matter what follows. The term itself used is already very insulting. The context which i meant is that Evra is not a close mate of Suarez, how could he have used that word to refer to Evra?


Added on December 27, 2011, 11:22 am
You swear??? But I thought you go to church every week!!

And what does that tells you about going to church every sunday?
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coming from someone who quotes the bible but has a devil holding a fork in their siggy banner... puhlease...

shows we are all but mortal sinners kiddo smile.gif
siksa
post Dec 27 2011, 11:59 AM

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QUOTE(REDShaun @ Dec 27 2011, 11:35 AM)
coming from someone who quotes the bible but has a devil holding a fork in their siggy banner... puhlease...

shows we are all but mortal sinners kiddo smile.gif
*
just accept it that he(suarez) said it(negrito) and evra butthurt about it. suarez did say it,lolz even his country men think he said it and even the greatest fan think he said it(but as the greatest fan its okay). this is already proof to get more ban and i hope he gets more. grow up.
REDShaun
post Dec 27 2011, 12:05 PM

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QUOTE(siksa @ Dec 27 2011, 11:59 AM)
just accept it that he(suarez) said it(negrito) and evra butthurt about it. suarez did say it,lolz even his country men think he said it and even the greatest fan think he said it(but as the greatest fan its okay). this is already proof to get more ban and i hope he gets more.grow  up.
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then there would be no more individual opinions if everyone accepted or is stereotyped to a single thought. we can't have that now can we?

let's agree that we disagree on the matter. and this "grow up" making people accept your views just becos you said it does look a little childish to me. I think you should start growing to catch up tongue.gif
Duke Red
post Dec 27 2011, 02:55 PM

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QUOTE(IcyDarling @ Dec 27 2011, 11:20 AM)
It doesn't matter what follows. The term itself used is already very insulting. The context which i meant is that Evra is not a close mate of Suarez, how could he have used that word to refer to Evra?
Far as I can tell, no one is even 100% sure which "N" word he used. "Negrito" (if it's the word that was uttered), means "little black man". No disrespect meant, but Evra isn't exactly huge. It's why I'm saying he could have referred to Evra's stature and physical description just as you would call someone, "you fat man". It doesn't mean he meant to insult Evra's heritage. Can you with absolute certainty he did? What do we know to be facts of the case?

Siska, no one is saying he didn't say anything controversial. Can you effing read? Grown ups can.
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post Dec 28 2011, 01:14 AM

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interesting article by Tony Evans in The Times hmm.gif
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