ahh, now i see why it is needed.
thanks.

Solar not very exp nowadays but you need to get a good plumber or contractor to run the piping.

Here is our latest promo. For details, join my facebook or cann us 03-62572412

When you pipe hot water to kitchen might as well also pipe it to your washing machine as u;sually the washing machine is near to the kitchen. There are washing machine come with hot and cold inlet. The machine auto select the water for best washing.

Depend, entire house with proper piping can be 4k more, depend how many bathroom, and piping to ground floor.

This post has been edited by weikee: Apr 13 2012, 10:01 AM

No need to insulate the hot copper pipe. The waiting time for hot water is shorter than the total volume of the pipe distant. Water travel on the least resistance and shoot like bullet at the center of the pipe where it has least friction. Got it?

When you first open the tap, open the hot to the max and as you are getting hotter and hotter water coming out turn to knob to the cold. Use mixer, never use the troblesome seperate piping/taps.

Always use half inch copper pipe all the way from the solar heater to the bathrooms, kitchen, etc outlets. Never use big size pipe as this take longer waiting time for hot water and to replace all the cold water in the pipe and eventually the hot water in the pipe will be wasted as it cooled before next use.

The shorter the distant between the heater and the outlet the better and faster in delivering hot water.

If you have 2storey or 3storey house, imagine how long the hot water need to travel down to your tap. And the waste amount of cold water that you don't want. The time need to wait for the hot water when you cooking. The surrounding wall of the pipe is hot. That will contribute to increase your house temperature when you keep on using aircon to cold down.

Can you see how much the energy you have to waste just to get a small amount of hot water.

this one i do not agree, want to do the hot water piping, just do it right the insulation won't cost much, less than rm1/ft run


i just calculate the volume of water from my heater to dry kt sink, about 70 fR of 12mm dia copper piping is just 0.00241304271264 m3 of water before the hot water reach my sink mixer

so how much liter of hot water is stuck in the pipe warming up the walls ?

0.00241304271264 m3 = 2.413L = 2413ml with proper insulation it won't warm up your wall lar

Actually the insulation will not make much difference. Because in the mixer, after you switch off the tap, the cold water will travel and mix with the hot water.

My friend using microsolar just the first floor bathroom. The pipe no insulate. The water can reach 90deg. Can feel the heat when touch the wall. And take time for the hot water out. He advise me to use insulate when instal 1.

---

Added on April 14, 2012, 6:09 pmThat is enough for your whole day drink. 2.4L

This post has been edited by ozak: Apr 14 2012, 06:09 PM

?? the mixer must be something wrong,

---

Added on April 14, 2012, 6:31 pmMust insulate for hot water copper piping, use PPR no need

for me, 2.4 L Enough for half day lor.... actually can skip hot water for kt sink one, hardly utilize it but if u got budget for solar+piping+mixer then why not

This post has been edited by skng03: Apr 14 2012, 06:35 PM

Nope, technically is correct. Because mixer opening on hot and cold. So when you switch off, the cold water will move to the hot water.

Let's argue so that you see my reasoning.

Am not saying insulation is same as no insulation but insulation has little effect than you think for hot water pipe and there are other ways than unnecessary insulation.

Part 1.

Insulation of pipe or not got not much to do with the waste of water waiting for hot water due to the length of the pipe. Whether you insulate the pipe or you dont you still need the time taken for the hot water to travel the length of pipe to push out the cold water.

Aircond room gaining heat in a room largely due to airflow where cold air escape via bottom of the door as such sucking hot air at any other opening to replace the lost cold air. Very little is to cold the wall or that particular part of the wall where hot pipe are consealed.

When it is the wall getting hot, the wall itself is heat insulation with or withut the added insulation. Insulation to be effective is on exposed pipe. Why use copper pipe which is one of the best heat conductor. Use stainless steel pipe. Stainless steel is one of the worst metal in conducting heat.

---

Added on April 14, 2012, 10:40 pmPart 2.

If insulation is cheap then go ahead. It must be very thick and you got to hack the wall wider and labor cost to conseal the joint and the pipe?

Your calculation is pure math but in practical it is not always the case on the amount of water replaced before gettting hot water. Water(either hot or cold or whatever) travels on the least resistant path. When you turn on the tap fully opened the hot water will rush (due to pressure and added with water pump), the new water is not pushing the whole of the water as in the pipe diameter. The circumference(wall) of the pipe resist the flow of water and so is the water nearer to the wall of the pipe also provide resistance and friction. The new water taking the least resistance that is the center of the pipe shooting like a bullet at the middle and leave the side water stagnant. the higher the water pressure the narrower the area of flow and the faster it reaches the tap. This has been proven with experiment using transparent pipe and coloring water. Surely but slowly the surronding water will be heated up as so is the pipe.

The correct way of getting hot water fast is to turn the hot tap (mixer to the left) to the max and as hot water is coming out turn to the middle for the mix of hot and cold. Once you feel the hot water wait for few second more and then only mix with cold water. So you are not wasting as mcuh water as you thought or would be if you leave it for the mixer to work itself.

---

Added on April 14, 2012, 10:48 pmPart 3

Hot tanks are insulated but water from hot tank will lose some heat via the pipe body by conduction not only at night but all the time. It is advable to use stainless steel pipe than copper pipe if not for the full length of the pipe, at least 2 feet should suffice. This is better than insulating copper pipe. Insulating copper pipe will not help at all in lost of heat via (copper pipe) heat conduction.

This post has been edited by stevie8: Apr 14 2012, 10:52 PM

Insulation the pipe will slow down the heat from lost. The heat will lost but take longer time. So don't waste that much water just to get the hot water.

The wall is 1 of the part as an insulation to the pipe. Cause brick and cement is 1 of the best insulation. But that will contribute to your room/house temperature if the heat keep there. If your wall face west with the sun, try put your hand on the wall inside the room late evening. This heat from the wall will increase your room temperature. That will increase your aircon bill.

Stainless steel is 1 of the best heat conductor beside copper. It is not worst. It transfer the heat faster than any normal metal.

Agreed but not the last para regarding stainless steel heat conductor.

Common metal thermal conductivity at 68 degree F measure in K, (Btu/hr degree F ft):

Rank 1: Silver : 235
Rank 2: Copper : 223
Rank 3 : Gold : 182
Aluminium : 118
Stainless steel : 7 -26

That is why stainless steel pots get spot food burned and turn black but the metal is not burned, it is the food burned and stained on it. Since ss is clean and does not contaiminate or corrode unlike copper and alu it is best for making cookware pot and layered with aluminum and copper in between for better heat conduction. You cant layered it inside with gold and silver, they are too expensive.

I design a lot of heat conducting to melt lead and etc. We use SS as a heating plate and pot. The SS heating plate have a heater rod insert in it. The heater will heat up the plate and transfer the heat to the SS pot. The heater too is a SS material. Heating temperature as high as 600deg. The good of using SS rather copper or alu is, it stand the corrossion, cheaper cost and heat transfer.

I know those much more expensive material have a better heat transfer than SS. But not practical to use. SS at least better a lot others metal.

let me explain a little more why ss pot get spot burnt. The area directly under fire is super hot as the heat is not quickly spread and the food at these spots get burnt. Wherea alu pot the spot directly under fire is not as hot as because the heat is quickly spread evenly and no food get burned. That is why when you buy ss pot make sure it has multy layers where some good heat conductor like copper is sandwich in between the stainless steel. There are ss pot sandwich with a kind of oil that has high evaporation point. The oil spread the heat more evenly better than copper since it is liquid. Liquid oil is not as good as heat conductor of copper but it spread evenly faster. The key is to spread evenly fast.

I haven't research till that spot burn. But if you talk the whole surface burn mark, yes it happen. Very common and normal due to time. Using SS as a transfer heat is normal for my industrial design. It is not my invent. I learn from japanese sifu. But the ss that we use is pure ss. Not mix with others metal layer.

1 more why I said ss conduct heat fast. Normally I do grind some metal part using bench grinder. when I hold the metal in my hand, ss material will heat up faster than metal. Even copper more faster. While I can hold longer on the metal. Try it yourself.


Here show you the material different after many years usage. The black SS is a heater plate. Few years usage with 600deg 24hr running. I guess this is what you mention as material change color. Compare the SS plate below which is temperature around 60-80deg. Ontop is a titanium material. Another material we use to transfer heat and as a pot.

Hey Guys, regarding insulation for hot water piping system and stainless steel piping, the best determinant on the value of piping insulation is just to get people that use piping with insulation or stainless steel piping to give review.

I agree with weikee and stevie8. But of course to be fair, i am a solar power water heating system end user with non insulated copper piping.

When I want hot water from my mixer after a long period of unuse (12 hours), I do as weikee describe, I turn on my mixer tab full to the hot side. Wait approx 10-20second depending on location, initially cold water will flow then the water will get scalding hot quickly, then I turn the mixer to the tempreture i want. This is the fastest way to get to the tempreture I want.

If piping with insulation or stainless steel piping give instant hot water without having to do as I do, then yes, its better.
But is there anyone (actual end user) to verify this??
If not then the question will be left hanging in the air. All theories are yet unproven.

If piping with insulation or stainless steel piping require a shorter time then how much shorter?
Half the time, less, more, 2 second ??????