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 Game Design & Programming 101, cout << "Updated 11th February" << endl;

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Cheese
post Aug 8 2005, 03:22 PM

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Well, here are my tips for writing game design docs:

1. Stay flexible - your doc is likely to be re-written over and over again in order either due to limitations or to adhere to some gameplay function so you'll not want to be too tight on whatever it is you put in there.

2. Be Technical - Chances are you may not be the coder, but the guy doing the coding is going to need to read what you write. Knowing some programming is essential in this respect. At least familiarity with logic sequences and data flow diagrams helps.

3. Details - Break your doc into a few levels. High level views so everyone can see the overview, and then go deeper into the details so that they know what it actually is.

Just so you're not confused, I'm talking solely about game design here, and not the story/background/aesthetics design. This deals more with the game's mechanics and elements.

btw Cfu, i think u forgot to mention dragonback or something like that in the local dev list.
jason83
post Aug 8 2005, 06:25 PM

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well there is a sickness with many game programmers wannabes here in malaysia... there are many i know whom said yes, they are interested in making games, but they say they ONLY want to design... tell u wat to do and other ppl do it...

this is the biggest problem ive encountered, the fact is, ANYONE can be a game designer.... AYNONE can be a crappy game designer, but if the whole team wants to be the designer, who is going to program the game? who is going to do the artwork?

to me, here in malaysia... as an advice... to those who wan to start to venture to this industry, first n foremost, DO NOT start by doing a document....it is quite a waste of time as now u r not in the market yet, you may think of many many ideas which u r not able to implement it yourself... heck u may not even know how to create a directx window using the win32api and dx api...

so trust me... get into programming, learn from the basics... at least when u have the idea, u can start to write instead of depending on others, no point if u waste your time getting the doc, finally demotivated trying to find a team to write it for u.......

wah long one... hahah just an advice la...any suggestions or feedback welcomed!!!

no offense ya!!
hwa107
post Aug 8 2005, 06:55 PM

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yeah i agree that programing skill is very important in developing a game. but planning is also important! without proper plainning nth u can come out with it.

wat i suggest is, keep on writing the doc, BUT!! make sure it's small, come out something that's very simple, make sure it's within ur ability range, so that u can at least start ur project.

after u have done the basic thing, ur game engine and so on, then only u expand ur idea, improve ur game, n add more interesting into it...

this is just wat i think, any comments r welcome! smile.gif
Cheese
post Aug 8 2005, 11:47 PM

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jason's right, though i have to mention that not all good programmers make great designers. a designer's job is completely different from what a programmer does. he works on the game's theme and mechanics.

to become a designer of calibre, you need to have heavy industry experience. that's why it's better off to start as a programmer or artist or even a sound producer so you know how things work in the game industry.

locally, this is the only way to go because most employers will only want to hire you if you can code/draw at the same time. And unless you've got a solid portfolio of successful designs that translated into successful games, it's a snowball's chance in hell they'd let you handle the game's design at all. it's kinda kiasu, but sometimes your employer might be the typical non-gamer business men and they don't see the need for a game designer at all. (and that's why their games turn out like shit har har)

then again, most local companies spend most of their time doing rebranding so there's not much of a need for a designer either. if you've got the cash, try and get yourself a place at the IAE (or was it AIE already lol) in Australia.

i don't really disagree that a document is a waste of time, but i would suggest you spend time working on mods or use custom tools to build your games such as game world editors or even the infamous RPG maker. these help build your fundamentals in understanding game logic and how to create interesting mechanics for players. that's how you can grow as a designer.

learning to turn your design into a real game is where the real challenge begins. then, making that game good enough is your final goal.
jason83
post Aug 9 2005, 01:18 AM

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well im not saying that game documentation n design is useless, it is one of the most important aspects in the industry, however, if u wanna enter this industry, try to learn by yourself, trust me, there arent many game programmers out there, so u have to do all the things by yourself..

last time when i was in college, i used to ask those of my frens who play lots of games... whether if they are interested, they say yes they have ideas... then who is going to write the game?

there is also another problem, most game companies wants someone with some experience or someone who can make a demo .... its already hard to find someone who can make a demo, don even think of finding an experienced game programmer when none of these companies arent willing to invest in training ...

however, i still believe that going freelance has a future, all u need is lots of time n effort... 10 years from now, who knows... good games are made by a malaysian who make his own games at home...??? hahahha

cheers to all...!!!
Hunt
post Aug 9 2005, 08:53 AM

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Well before i proceed to addressing the comments you guys have made. I would like to thank you for responding as not many ppl do. I by career am a network engineer who is trying to breach the gaming market.
I bought a couple of charles river media books on gaming and most of them started by saying, "jot down you ideas and work on them as that will give me a workplace or a place of where i can view my work in totality"

Thats why im writing down a game design doc. I do realize that creating games is a daunting task and the industry here in our country is unforgiving. sweat.gif
So im trying to learn the skillsets as i go. Well dont you guys think its worth it to struggle for something you love? smile.gif

Game programming is a really tough path to go down but thats the path i've chosen to study up at the moment while doing the game design doc as i need to understand how to make all the stuff i want come true in the game.

So i would really appreciate the help you guys offered and would like to thank you guys for it. thumbup.gif




QUOTE(Cheese @ Aug 8 2005, 03:22 PM)
Well, here are my tips for writing game design docs:

1. Stay flexible - your doc is likely to be re-written over and over again in order either due to limitations or to adhere to some gameplay function so you'll not want to be too tight on whatever it is you put in there.

2. Be Technical - Chances are you may not be the coder, but the guy doing the coding is going to need to read what you write. Knowing some programming is essential in this respect. At least familiarity with logic sequences and data flow diagrams helps.

3. Details - Break your doc into a few levels. High level views so everyone can see the overview, and then go deeper into the details so that they know what it actually is.

Just so you're not confused, I'm talking solely about game design here, and not the story/background/aesthetics design. This deals more with the game's mechanics and elements.

btw Cfu, i think u forgot to mention dragonback or something like that in the local dev list.
*
Yeah, i realize that as i was constantly modifying sections of my doc. Would you have any sample game docs that i could refer 2 so see if im missing anything.

Dragonback??




QUOTE(jason83 @ Aug 8 2005, 06:25 PM)
well there is a sickness with many game programmers wannabes here in malaysia... there are many i know whom said yes, they are interested in making games, but they say they ONLY want to design... tell u wat to do and other ppl do it...

this is the biggest problem ive encountered, the fact is, ANYONE can be a game designer.... AYNONE can be a crappy game designer, but if the whole team wants to be the designer, who is going to program the game? who is going to do the artwork?

to me, here in malaysia... as an advice... to those who wan to start to venture to this industry, first n foremost, DO NOT start by doing a document....it is quite a waste of time as now u r not in the market yet, you may think of many many ideas which u r not able to implement it yourself... heck u may not even know how to create a directx window using the win32api and dx api...

so trust me... get into programming, learn from the basics... at least when u have the idea, u can start to write instead of depending on others, no point if u waste your time getting the doc, finally demotivated trying to find a team to write it for u.......

wah long one... hahah just an advice la...any suggestions or feedback welcomed!!!

no offense ya!!
*
None taken. Learning is a lifetime affair, so im happy to receive any type of comments. I have taken notice of ppl wanting to share their ideas but not the effort. Well, forgive me for saying this but i believe most asians are like that. Ppl tend to look for comfort zones in their life and stay there till life fades.

Well i would like to know, in your opinion, what do you think some of the basics that i should be spending most of my time (im asking for something a little more specific)

Im sorry if i've offended you.




QUOTE(hwa107 @ Aug 8 2005, 06:55 PM)
yeah i agree that programing skill is very important in developing a game. but planning is also important! without proper plainning nth u can come out with it.

wat i suggest is, keep on writing the doc, BUT!! make sure it's small, come out something that's very simple, make sure it's within ur ability range, so that u can at least start ur project.

after u have done the basic thing, ur game engine and so on, then only u expand ur idea, improve ur game, n add more interesting into it...

this is just wat i think, any comments r welcome! smile.gif
*
In your opinion, what would be the ideal programming language? I know a lot of ppl say C++. It takes quite a while to really get a grasp of it. It will take longer for someone like me. (still i have to do it in the shortest time possible). How about for a beginner or for a small simple project like u suggested, what language should i should first get accustomed too?.



QUOTE(Cheese @ Aug 8 2005, 11:47 PM)
jason's right, though i have to mention that not all good programmers make great designers. a designer's job is completely different from what a programmer does. he works on the game's theme and mechanics.

to become a designer of calibre, you need to have heavy industry experience. that's why it's better off to start as a programmer or artist or even a sound producer so you know how things work in the game industry.

locally, this is the only way to go because most employers will only want to hire you if you can code/draw at the same time. And unless you've got a solid portfolio of successful designs that translated into successful games, it's a snowball's chance in hell they'd let you handle the game's design at all. it's kinda kiasu, but sometimes your employer might be the typical non-gamer business men and they don't see the need for a game designer at all. (and that's why their games turn out like shit har har)

then again, most local companies spend most of their time doing rebranding so there's not much of a need for a designer either. if you've got the cash, try and get yourself a place at the IAE (or was it AIE already lol) in Australia.

i don't really disagree that a document is a waste of time, but i would suggest you spend time working on mods or use custom tools to build your games such as game world editors or even the infamous RPG maker. these help build your fundamentals in understanding game logic and how to create interesting mechanics for players. that's how you can grow as a designer.

learning to turn your design into a real game is where the real challenge begins. then, making that game good enough is your final goal.
*
I agree with this. Could i know what did you mean by " IAE (or was it AIE already lol) in Australia. "




QUOTE(jason83 @ Aug 9 2005, 01:18 AM)
well im not saying that game documentation n design is useless, it is one of the most important aspects in the industry, however, if u wanna enter this industry, try to learn by yourself, trust me, there arent many game programmers out there, so u have to do all the things by yourself..

last time when i was in college, i used to ask those of my frens who play lots of games... whether if they are interested, they say yes they have ideas... then who is going to write the game?

there is also another problem, most game companies wants someone with some experience or someone who can make a demo .... its already hard to find someone who can make a demo, don even think of finding an experienced game programmer when none of these companies arent willing to invest in training ...

however, i still believe that going freelance has a future, all u need is lots of time n effort... 10 years from now, who knows... good games are made by a malaysian who make his own games at home...??? hahahha

cheers to all...!!!
*
" however, i still believe that going freelance has a future, all u need is lots of time n effort... 10 years from now, who knows... good games are made by a malaysian who make his own games at home...??? hahahha "

i really hope this comes true. it would be cool to see our guys here moving the gaming industry and also paving the way for more ppl to become gamers. In my opinion, the gaming industry actually pushes IT ppl to move higher and harder.





well i really am sorry if i've offended anyone.

hwa107
post Aug 9 2005, 11:08 AM

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QUOTE(Hunt @ Aug 9 2005, 08:53 AM)
In your opinion, what would be the ideal programming language? I know a lot of ppl say C++. It takes quite a while to really get a grasp of it. It will take longer for someone like me. (still i have to do it in the shortest time possible). How about for a beginner or for a small simple project like u suggested, what language should i should first get accustomed too?.
*
flash? java? director? or even php! (web based game) any languange will do!! who say must C++? right?? laugh.gif

wat's the ideal language, i think is none! any language can create game, even javascript! however for a beginning, i would suggest flash, coz it's easy, n doesn't need lots of programing skills, n there r whole lot's of sample code outside, n even more free flash game out there that u can take as an example, n here got whole lot of them.

actually wat i trying to say is to urge u ppl to start ur project, starting ur projec is not easy, instead just think of ideas, like i wan to make this n that, y dun ppl go n actually do it? coz once u started it, mean u r doing somethng...

n yes i know the limitation of programing skills, actually me also facing this problem sad.gif but i dun think that will stop u from doing games right? think that as 1 of the obstacle u have to face, nth is easy on this world right?

btw, i dun thnk u should wait untill u fully master a certain language then only u can start making a game, not only C++ but other language also, coz this definally will take times. i suggest do while u learn, n learn while u do, u will relised that u actually having fun while learning something tongue.gif

that's my RM0.02, hope i din offended someone here, but if i do, i'm sorry. smile.gif

This post has been edited by hwa107: Aug 9 2005, 11:09 AM
hwa107
post Aug 9 2005, 11:14 AM

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ok guys i found this some time ago, try it n see smile.gif

Go to 'Start > Run' then type 'debug', after that paste the code below.

CODE
e100 e8 5f 0 e8 4c 1 e8 ed 0 b8 0 4c cd 20 f f 0 8 7 1 7 1 6 7 7 1 0 f 1 0 0
e11f 0 fe c2 cb c4 c1 8a d3 c5 df 8a cc c5 d8 8a da c6 cb d3 c3 c4 cd 86 8a
e137 c8 d3 8a d9 c1 d3 dd c3 c4 ce 99 9a 9a 9a ea c2 c5 de c7 cb c3 c6 84 c9
e14f c5 c7 a7 a0 0 87 97 8a ef f2 ec e5 f8 e9 ef 8a 97 87 0 66 60 b8 0 11 a3
e168 e 1 5 80 bb a3 16 1 5 0 1 a3 10 1 5 80 0 a3 12 1 5 10 2 a3 14 1 8b 3e 10
e185 1 fc b9 80 2 33 c0 f3 aa 1e 33 c0 8e d8 8e c0 be 24 0 66 ad 1f 66 a3 18
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e1b7 8a c4 e6 40 fb 66 33 c0 1e 7 b8 13 0 cd 10 be 7e 3 bb 0 0 8b 3e 16 1 ac
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e5aa 1d 0 74 33 80 7e f0 0 75 31 c6 46 f0 1 ff 56 f8 c1 e0 4 8b 7e f4 3 f8 80
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e5de a eb 4 c6 46 f0 0 c7 46 de 0 0 8b 7e f4 e9 a3 1 8b 45 8 89 46 d6 8b 45 a
e5f9 89 46 d4 8b 5 89 46 d0 3d 1 0 74 b 3d 2 0 75 3 e9 a7 0 e9 6b 1 83 7d 2 0
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e7cc 8b 5e f2 89 47 8 6a a ff 56 fa 59 5 ec ff 8b 5e f2 89 47 a b8 96 0 2b 46
e7e6 ce 89 46 d4 83 7e d4 0 7d 5 c7 46 d4 0 0 8b 46 d4 89 46 de eb 11 6a 4 ff
e800 76 de 68 3f 1 ff 56 fe 83 c4 6 ff 46 de 81 7e de 96 0 7c e8 81 7e d2 8c
e819 0 7d f c6 46 f1 1 8b 46 d2 25 1 0 89 46 da eb 5 c7 46 da 1 0 83 7e da 0
e834 74 e 6a 0 ff 76 e0 ff 76 e2 ff 56 fc 83 c4 6 b8 74 2 ff d0 ff 46 d2 80
e84d 7e f1 0 74 3 e9 63 fc 80 7e f1 0 75 2e 66 8b 46 e8 66 89 46 e4 eb 14 66
e866 60 33 c0 cd 1a 8b c1 66 c1 e0 10 8b c2 66 89 46 e4 66 61 66 8b 46 e4 66
e87e 2b 46 e8 66 3d d0 2 0 0 72 dc 5f 5e c9 c3 ff 53 4b 59 57 49 4e 44 30 35
g


And when the console finish copying, press enter and see what happen, to terminate the console just type 'quit'.

that's not C++ right? or any other common programing language that we used to see. but wat's it? i dunno also, but for me it's very interesting tongue.gif

This post has been edited by hwa107: Aug 9 2005, 11:16 AM
crabjim
post Aug 9 2005, 03:30 PM

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lol, nice thread n good resources.....thanx smile.gif
people here were nice too.....yeah, i juz notice this thread few days ago n i'm so interested in learning game prog.
i'm a Multimedia student fr a local Uni, i get 2 learn some programming skill but i nvr learn making games b4, it's not in the syllabus. i'm very interested with the course offered in gameprogramming but i dunno wether got time 2 participate or not sad.gif
i thk the code fr hwa107 is a machine code, it redirect ur CPU to run instruction which is only understood by the CPU, all the leftmost 4-character number on every line resembles the address of the memory while the rest is the instruction. I thk so
crabjim
post Aug 9 2005, 03:33 PM

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it's a game. if u lose d game, press g then enter 2 try again.
jason83
post Aug 9 2005, 07:44 PM

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Hunt, don worry you are free to give comments here.

in my opinion, all u need to do now is to learn a basic language, a common language such as java or c++ or visual basic. these three languages are important if u wanna really do quality games, im not saying languages such as flash are useless, but from what i can see they can only make simple games, correct me if im wrong.

c++ is currently the most popular language used to program games, together with directx (more on this later), games created using c++ and directx are said to be the fastest, however due to the language complexity, productivity is quite low, meaning u write a lot of code to do a task

java has a sort of branch now,its known as java 3d, capable of developing games in short periods of time, the code is short, i read the book before, but the concepts is quite different from other languages, so i dumped it anyway... hahaha

visual basic... hmmm not many ppl has written games using this language, but im going to say something which may get me flamed, i believe visual basic.net ( of its similar sibling c#) is the future of gaming language, as from what i have seen, a task written in C++ will take 2 days but if .net technology is used, it can be done in 2 hours. from my point of view, if you are weak in programming, you should take up visual basic.net and get the managed direct sdk.

eventhough your games maybe slower, your productivity is higher.

in game programming, the hardest part is not to code, but to understand the concepts... what is the FOV (field of view), the various spaces ( object, world , forgot the other one) and so many other things, if the language is already a barrier to u, imagine how many years will u take to make a game as simple as mario.....

the above comments are only my opinions, no offense meant to flash fans out there, hhahah personally i have tried using c++ and dx and i have learnt how to load models from .x files, make the background of the world, rotate camera, movement, basic collision detection, however i have yet to learn animation of models, all these in c++

but due to lack of time, i have gave up.. hehehe now waiting for more time to learn managed directx for visual basic . net
TSC-Fu
post Aug 10 2005, 04:05 AM

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ok sorry guys I didn't reply sooner. I'll give you an example of a research gaming project that I'm trying to push to the Uni.

Basically what this project is, is a public art installation thing. My block recently setup 12 rear-projection screens arranged in a grid, and the Uni wants to do something about it to reflect the Uni being all technological or whatever tongue.gif So my proposal is about using the screens to show an eye that is watching us, kinda like the god Ra or the tv show Big Brother. There will be sensors around the University that detects motion, and if people passes the sensor, it will send the data to the eye, and the eye will move to the sensor's position lah. If nobody passes thru any sensors (like at night) then we can have the eye crying or sleeping or whatever. So this is basically the "game" that I'm doing right now. Trying to break the tv-joypad convention in gaming.

Or, another proposal is to setup a camera and a hole around uni, and people would get curious about the hole and look into it and they can see London in real time, and vice versa, kinda like a warp hole yaknow.

As about the programming language, go ahead and learn ANYTHING. Anything is good for you, because basically all programming languages are the same. They might not have the same capabilities or speed, but the methodology, the way you do things are similar. Heck, learn COBOL if you can too (COBOL is an ancient language for making business database stuff). And then make games on it, like similar to MUD or something. These kinda things that makes you go around the limitations of a language is necessary if you wanna be creative.

I haven't tried VB.NET before, but I heard lots of good things about it, like you can do rapid prototyping of a game or a concept. But I used VB + DirectX to create a puzzle MMOG before for a project in APIIT, and IMO unless you wanna do something superhardcore (like Lineage2, which won't happen for sure), VB + DX will yield very very similar speed and performance as C++ + DX, but without all the complexities of C++. You can make simple 3D games and it will still be as speedy as a C++ code.

Flash is teh powah! The scripting is not really scripting; it's a language just like C++. and it's ECMA-compliant, which means you learn ActionScript, then you basically know C++ and Java and .Net. And game engines rarely depend on the language since most of your work would be writing mathematical algorithms. And with flash, animation or the graphics part is done for you so just lukis2 onli. If you ask me, learn flash because you can directly create a simple game or move a character on the screen after a few hours. You can learn C++ or whatever, but you might get dissapointed or blame someone's mother biggrin.gif just because there are tons of things that you must do before displaying a guy moving left or right biggrin.gif

and that binary thing is machine code.

Also what is this dragonback? You mean DragonRaja ah?
Cheese
post Aug 10 2005, 09:46 AM

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baliklar dragonraja pulak!! made me have to actually move my finger muscles to get this link: http://www.dragonbackgames.com/

but i think they're more into publishing and rebranding as well. not sure.

annnnyway... flash is far from inferior to the thre languages you mentioned.

C++ is truly the core language, and what hardcore devs out there will want... IF you want a fast and powerful game. The strength in C++ is speed. That's about it.

Java is slow as hell no matter how the Jenthusiast will try to convince you otherwise, but it's still bearable. I don't know of any top games made in Java, but most games tend to have a hybrid mix of Java and C++ in between. If you look at UnrealScript, it's really similiar to Java though the core of UT runs on C++

VB.. well, VB is not a bad choice at making games, but it lacks the flexibility Java provides and the raw power of C++. And if its in VB, youre more or less stuck with M$. I'm an M$ fanboy so I don't mind, but for those linuxlovingtreehumpers out there, they'd probably sabo your game or boycott it. On the other hand, there are tons of API and thankfully there is one for opengl too, but if you're interested in making hardcore 3d gamestuff with VB, you should check out darkbasic instead. It's like vb on speed.

Flash.. well, flash has evolved alot more than you'd like to think Jason. Agreed that it will lose out to C++ in the speed area since activescript is very high level but you can pretty much pull off almost any game with flash. Check out Dofus (google if you bastards, i'm not wasting anymore finger muscle) for a great flash based MMOG. To top it off, flash saves many hours of dev time trying to built your own graphic tools and rendering engines. In fact, it's the best choice for rapid game dev projects.

[edit]Forgot to mention that if you are really serious about getting into the local industry, currently what's hot or at least what they're mainly up to are handphone games, so you'll want to pick up J2ME for that. It's not an easy language, for a handphone game at least since you need to cramp everything up wthin a certain limit... not more than 50kb sometimes.. depending on the complexity of th game

Also,

QUOTE
in game programming, the hardest part is not to code, but to understand the concepts... what is the FOV (field of view), the various spaces ( object, world , forgot the other one) and so many other things, if the language is already a barrier to u, imagine how many years will u take to make a game as simple as mario


FOV and spaces have nothing to do with games or at least, they are not required if you're not making 3d games. A game like mario would just require some tiling knowledge.

Lastly, never, ever confuse game design and programming, as is the case most people tend to do. design, is design, much like how a mapper plots out his levels, and programming, is the guy who built the tools for the mapper to map with.

This post has been edited by Cheese: Aug 10 2005, 09:50 AM
rotanidrow
post Aug 10 2005, 10:29 AM

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Found this site while i wuz trying to design and program an isometric game

nice resources on algorithms , gaming concepts and programming concepts(OO)

http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/gameprog.html
Hunt
post Aug 10 2005, 11:11 AM

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Once again, the help offered is greatly appreciated. Believe me there are ppl out there who are really wanting to move to an industry that motivates someone to push their limits. I've found the gaming industry to do that for me and reading all the information poured out onto this thread shows that there are ppl here who would make the gaming industry here successfull if not for the circumstances that need their utmost attention.

I take my Hat off to all of you, gentlemens


QUOTE(hwa107 @ Aug 9 2005, 11:08 AM)
flash? java? director? or even php! (web based game) any languange will do!! who say must C++? right??  laugh.gif

wat's the ideal language, i think is none! any language can create game, even javascript! however for a beginning, i would suggest flash, coz it's easy, n doesn't need lots of programing skills, n there r whole lot's of sample code outside, n even more free flash game out there that u can take as an example, n here got whole lot of them.

actually wat i trying to say is to urge u ppl to start ur project, starting ur projec is not easy, instead just think of ideas, like i wan to make this n that, y dun ppl go n actually do it? coz once u started it, mean u r doing somethng...

n yes i know the limitation of programing skills, actually me also facing this problem sad.gif but i dun think that will stop u from doing games right? think that as 1 of the obstacle u have to face, nth is easy on this world right?

btw, i dun thnk u should wait untill u fully master a certain language then only u can start making a game, not only C++ but other language also, coz this definally will take times. i suggest do while u learn, n learn while u do, u will relised that u actually having fun while learning something tongue.gif

that's my RM0.02, hope i din offended someone here, but if i do, i'm sorry. smile.gif
*
take my word for it, your Rm0.02 worth is like RM200 to ppl like me. I agree that we should start a project and get the ball rolling as that will actually put the entire idea in motion. Which will spawn a much more productive approach then just writing ideas down.

Would you agree that a strong understanding of the programming languages would benefit the person using it because, he/she would be able to know what that language has to offer or do you think learning on the fly like u have said poses a better stance of grasping the language in a much more refined way?.


QUOTE(crabjim @ Aug 9 2005, 03:30 PM)
lol, nice thread n good resources.....thanx smile.gif
people here were nice too.....yeah, i juz notice this thread few days ago n i'm so interested in learning game prog.
i'm a Multimedia student fr a local Uni, i get 2 learn some programming skill but i nvr learn making games b4, it's not in the syllabus. i'm very interested with the course offered in gameprogramming but i dunno wether got time 2 participate or not sad.gif
i thk the code fr hwa107 is a machine code, it redirect ur CPU to run instruction which is only understood by the CPU, all the leftmost 4-character number on every line resembles the address of the memory while the rest is the instruction. I thk so
*
Well thank you for your comment. Well if youre learning multimedia, you have a greater chance of going into the graphic side of gaming. Havent you considered that path?.
I noticed that too about the gameprogramming course.


QUOTE(jason83 @ Aug 9 2005, 07:44 PM)
Hunt, don worry you are free to give comments here.

in my opinion, all u need to do now is to learn a basic language, a common language such as java or c++ or visual basic. these three languages are important if u wanna really do quality games, im not saying languages such as flash are useless, but from what i can see they can only make simple games, correct me if im wrong.

c++ is currently the most popular language used to program games, together with directx (more on this later), games created using c++ and directx are said to be the fastest, however due to the language complexity, productivity is quite low, meaning u write a lot of code to do a task

java has a sort of branch now,its known as java 3d, capable of developing games in short periods of time, the code is short, i read the book before, but the concepts is quite different from other languages, so i dumped it anyway... hahaha

visual basic... hmmm not many ppl has written games using this language, but im going to say something which may get me flamed, i believe visual basic.net ( of its similar sibling c#) is the future of gaming language, as from what i have seen, a task written in C++ will take 2 days but if .net technology is used, it can be done in 2 hours. from my point of view, if you are weak in programming, you should take up visual basic.net and get the managed direct sdk.

eventhough your games maybe slower, your productivity is higher.

in game programming, the hardest part is not to code, but to understand the concepts... what is the FOV (field of view), the various spaces ( object, world , forgot the other one) and so many other things, if the language is already a barrier to u, imagine how many years will u take to make a game as simple as mario.....

the above comments are only my opinions, no offense meant to flash fans out there, hhahah personally i have tried using c++ and dx and i have learnt how to load models from .x files, make the background of the world, rotate camera, movement, basic collision detection, however i have yet to learn animation of models, all these in c++

but due to lack of time, i have gave up.. hehehe now waiting for more time to learn managed directx for visual basic . net
*
Thanks jason83 for your assurance. Just didnt want to offend anyone as i believe the crowd here has been ever helpful. Well looks like you got yourself to a good start. Did you learn this by yourself or attending courses?. Its just that im a bit lost on how i can get started. Right now im following those books i bought and working my way through them.

I'm still adamant about learning a concrete programming language that will help me in the long run.


QUOTE(C-Fu @ Aug 10 2005, 04:05 AM)
ok sorry guys I didn't reply sooner. I'll give you an example of a research gaming project that I'm trying to push to the Uni.

Basically what this project is, is a public art installation thing. My block recently setup 12 rear-projection screens arranged in a grid, and the Uni wants to do something about it to reflect the Uni being all technological or whatever tongue.gif So my proposal is about using the screens to show an eye that is watching us, kinda like the god Ra or the tv show Big Brother. There will be sensors around the University that detects motion, and if people passes the sensor, it will send the data to the eye, and the eye will move to the sensor's position lah. If nobody passes thru any sensors (like at night) then we can have the eye crying or sleeping or whatever. So this is basically the "game" that I'm doing right now. Trying to break the tv-joypad convention in gaming.

Or, another proposal is to setup a camera and a hole around uni, and people would get curious about the hole and look into it and they can see London in real time, and vice versa, kinda like a warp hole yaknow.

As about the programming language, go ahead and learn ANYTHING. Anything is good for you, because basically all programming languages are the same. They might not have the same capabilities or speed, but the methodology, the way you do things are similar. Heck, learn COBOL if you can too (COBOL is an ancient language for making business database stuff). And then make games on it, like similar to MUD or something. These kinda things that makes you go around the limitations of a language is necessary if you wanna be creative.

I haven't tried VB.NET before, but I heard lots of good things about it, like      you can do rapid prototyping of a game or a concept. But I used VB + DirectX to create a puzzle MMOG before for a project in APIIT, and IMO unless you wanna do something superhardcore (like Lineage2, which won't happen for sure), VB + DX will yield very very similar speed and performance as C++ + DX, but without all the complexities of C++. You can make simple 3D games and it will still be as speedy as a C++ code.

Flash is teh powah! The scripting is not really scripting; it's a language just like C++. and it's ECMA-compliant, which means you learn ActionScript, then you basically know C++ and Java and .Net. And game engines rarely depend on the language since most of your work would be writing mathematical algorithms. And with flash, animation or the graphics part is done for you so just lukis2 onli. If you ask me, learn flash because you can directly create a simple game or move a character on the screen after a few hours. You can learn C++ or whatever, but you might get dissapointed or blame someone's mother biggrin.gif just because there are tons of things that you must do before  displaying a guy moving left or right biggrin.gif

and that binary thing is machine code.

Also what is this dragonback? You mean DragonRaja ah?
*
hey dude, no need for apologies. Its because of you we are able to have this discussion in this thread. Correct me if im wrong, it sounds like the project is a survellance system. Sorry if i got it wrong. I was planning to learn .NET as they were few ppl telling me that its beneficial to learn that.

dude i would still like to know how old are you, if you dont mind. If you do mind, i wont ask anymore. Im so sorry i did in the first place.


QUOTE(Cheese @ Aug 10 2005, 09:46 AM)
baliklar dragonraja pulak!! made me have to actually move my finger muscles to get this link: http://www.dragonbackgames.com/

but i think they're more into publishing and rebranding as well. not sure.

annnnyway... flash is far from inferior to the thre languages you mentioned.

C++ is truly the core language, and what hardcore devs out there will want... IF you want a fast and powerful game. The strength in C++ is speed. That's about it.

Java is slow as hell no matter how the Jenthusiast will try to convince you otherwise, but it's still bearable. I don't know of any top games made in Java, but most games tend to have a hybrid mix of Java and C++ in between. If you look at UnrealScript, it's really similiar to Java though the core of UT runs on C++

VB.. well, VB is not a bad choice at making games, but it lacks the flexibility Java provides and the raw power of C++. And if its in VB, youre more or less stuck with M$. I'm an M$ fanboy so I don't mind, but for those linuxlovingtreehumpers out there, they'd probably sabo your game or boycott it. On the other hand, there are tons of API and thankfully there is one for opengl too, but if you're interested in making hardcore 3d gamestuff with VB, you should check out darkbasic instead. It's like vb on speed.

Flash.. well, flash has evolved alot more than you'd like to think Jason. Agreed that it will lose out to C++ in the speed area since activescript is very high level but you can pretty much pull off almost any game with flash. Check out Dofus (google if you bastards, i'm not wasting anymore finger muscle) for a great flash based MMOG. To top it off, flash saves many hours of dev time trying to built your own graphic tools and rendering engines. In fact, it's the best choice for rapid game dev projects.

[edit]Forgot to mention that if you are really serious about getting into the local industry, currently what's hot or at least what they're mainly up to are handphone games, so you'll want to pick up J2ME for that. It's not an easy language, for a handphone game at least since you need to cramp everything up wthin a certain limit... not more than 50kb sometimes.. depending on the complexity of th game

Also,
FOV and spaces have nothing to do with games or at least, they are not required if you're not making 3d games. A game like mario would just require some tiling knowledge.

Lastly, never, ever confuse game design and programming, as is the case most people tend to do. design, is design, much like how a mapper plots out his levels, and programming, is the guy who built the tools for the mapper to map with.
*
thanks for your effort cheese. believe me, your help goes a long way. I believe gamedesign is the overall structure that guides each part of the game creation process and which makes the game a successful product or one that will go down like the titanic. Forgive me cheese, if i offended you.





Well i wanted to ask you is it too late for a guy like me who's 24 to be changing careers. i always wanted to do gaming but couldnt due to unforeseen circumstances but now am trying to make that a realisation. Well let me know what do you think.

Well i would like to ask what do you guys think of which is the more preferred 3D Graphic tool to be used for game programming. Would it be 3DsMax or Maya.


Oh before i forget, please check this site out. In my opinion its worth it checking out.
These guys work are so encouraging.

http://www.projectoffset.com/





TSC-Fu
post Aug 10 2005, 11:35 AM

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Joined: Apr 2005
From: Brisbane, QLD, Ostolia
For the 3d tools, I'd recommend Lightwave because of its very fast workflow. To create create something from scratch doesn't need a lot of time at all.

But then, I absolutely hate Smax so... tongue.gif

My take: learn ANYTHING. Might be easier if you learn software X that you know you can get a lot of tutorials for X lah, but any software is good. Heck, learn MilkShape3D. It's free, can export to practically any game engine or format, and it's FREE biggrin.gif

Only start to choose a particular software, or programming language, after you have enough knowledge on 3D design or programming or whatever. Because when you are starting out something, I believe that all software or programming language can help you, and the result will be just about the same.

That said, I use Lightwave and Zbrush (you practically DRAW 3D models, not model them!) for modelling. But yeah, it really is up to you. Most softwares can export to .DX format anyway, and if you are going to the directX path, the softwares shouldn't matter for now.

The commercial gaming industry is not just about C++ or Maya. You can become the scriptwriter and still work for a game (look at Halo or Final Fantasy or [insert good storyline games here]). You can even become a concept artist and design the characters. Or from a DJ in PJ to a music composer in a game. That's the beauty of this industry - anybody can work here.

QUOTE
Lastly, never, ever confuse game design and programming, as is the case most people tend to do.

I wouldn't be so sure. Well, if you work in a multinational company (like EA), or in a 20-50 people project then fair enough, there would be a distinct difference of jobs in design and programming. But for hobbyist designers or projects of 5-10 people (everybody else), often times you have to become the designer, the coder, the artist and the debugger all in one. Which is why all game-related courses or IT courses nowadays teach you both stuff like photoshop and opengl.

Oh and my age ah? Mmm... malu la sleep.gif

Added some stuff about political games in the first post

This post has been edited by C-Fu: Aug 10 2005, 12:03 PM
Cheese
post Aug 10 2005, 02:27 PM

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QUOTE
I wouldn't be so sure. Well, if you work in a multinational company (like EA), or in a 20-50 people project then fair enough, there would be a distinct difference of jobs in design and programming. But for hobbyist designers or projects of 5-10 people (everybody else), often times you have to become the designer, the coder, the artist and the debugger all in one. Which is why all game-related courses or IT courses nowadays teach you both stuff like photoshop and opengl.


yah laa, but my point is that many youngsters and more or less the general public perception of game design = programming. like how i was conned with multimedia = it when i was younger. i've met people who think writing pseudocode is equivalent to designing the game.

Hunt, it's never too late to go into game dev, as long as you have the money;)

I think you don't have to learn everything, but you need to have abundant knowledge in everything (yes, everything) if you intend to do well as an indie. That includes things like philosophy, psychology, sociology, anthropology, geography etc. If not, make sure your team composes of people who are expertise in these areas. Eg. Lead artist with strong art sense, Sound producer whos familiar with various cultural music blabla.
Hunt
post Aug 11 2005, 10:01 AM

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QUOTE(Cheese @ Aug 10 2005, 02:27 PM)
yah laa, but my point is that many youngsters and more or less the general public perception of game design = programming. like how i was conned with multimedia = it when i was younger. i've met people who think writing pseudocode is equivalent to designing the game.

Hunt, it's never too late to go into game dev, as long as you have the money;)

I think you don't have to learn everything, but you need to have abundant knowledge in everything (yes, everything) if you intend to do well as an indie. That includes things like philosophy, psychology, sociology, anthropology, geography etc. If not, make sure your team composes of people who are expertise in these areas. Eg. Lead artist with strong art sense, Sound producer whos familiar with various cultural music blabla.
*
Well thats a relief with a catch. Money...hmm.... need to work on that part. Well its true as its difficult to get real advice in this country form the educational institutions as i was conned that IT= computing, meaning just learning what a computer is about. Utter bullshit. I only gained the knowledge of networking by picking it up myself. My degree is utterly useless if i want to pursue a career in gaming or working in a foreign country. So believe me, i would really want to be able to have a certification or degree i can be proud off.

I made up my mind to attain a gaming degree but am still working out the bugs. Well cheese, i really am sad and glad to see someone went through the way i did and now is doing fine. Please dont misunderstand what i said. i didnt mean any offence by it. i apologize if i've offended you.
jason83
post Aug 11 2005, 12:33 PM

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just for motivation, there is a game written by practically one guy, the name of the game is Starshatter, took him 5 years i think, 95% of the game written by him i think

the game is quite good, for a space simulator, it even has features which other big titles do not have, however due to the er.. not so nice graphics, it wasnt tat popular... i remember gamespot gave it a 7- 8.5 rating.. forgot liao...

oh yeah hunt, i don think its necessary to get a gaming degree in order to be in the game industry, now all these companies, what they need is for u to show them a demo of a simple game written by yourself, to show that u know about all these stuff.... as long as u have a general com science degree, that is enough..

do u think ppl like john carmack or peter molyneux have a gaming degree?? ahhah they learn by themselves....
Cheese
post Aug 11 2005, 01:30 PM

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imo, what the starshatter guy did was pointless, at least in the eyes of a business person. making games is one thing, but nowadays, you have to take into account the time it takes to make a game. there are quite alot of games that failed, not because they were particularly bad, but because by the time they got shipped, it was way behind times. i think the daikatana story should be a mandatory case study subject in game dev schools. That, and duke nukem forever.

We're dealing with an industry that's highly competitive and rapid. That's why there's a need for teams, with people of utmost expertise in their fields. Nothing wrong with a game that takes 10 years to complete, actually but you've got make sure that it's up to date and the idea that you originally started out with isn't stale by the time you're done. this is where the designer's role is important. if the game dev is going to take a long time, he's got to study the market so he doesn't end up with a game that will be so overdone by the time it comes out that nobody gives a damn.. even if it's it's got a brandname or something.

hunt, no offense taken... quit worrying about that.. this is the net. you'd have to be a big idiot to feel insulted by something someone wrote about you on a public forum. yeah, guess we're in the same boat. i'm actually going to go back to studies again, this time in a more related field.

jason's right tho, no need to actually have a degree, the art/game/entertainment line is all about substance. either you have it or don't. you can't sweettalk your way into a company (unless it's run by an idiot businessman) without a decent portfolio with you. a game demo, or even game content that you've done works. you never know, studios like blizz or valve might hire you if you produce some pretty good warcraft/hl2 maps/missions.

that's how most of the people in the industry got into the AA companies last times. they made mods and got famous for it. A few people from Epic were actually hired off their games' mod community. For more inspiration, think of gooseman, the guy who graced (and cursed) the world with Counter Strike, now Staff ID 289337 at valve. (ok, just kidding about the id)
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