Hi folks,

My family and I are living in a terrace house.
Recently my dad changed our 25-yr old voltage-based ELCB to a newer current-based RCCB (Wylex 2Pole 40A with 100mA sensitivity)

After that it start nuisance tripping a lot during storms, even if the lightning is far away.
When no storm, everything is OK.

I was surprised even 100mA also trips a lot, if 30mA of course I can understand the tripping.

Any RCCB users here on 100mA sensitivity? Do yours trip frequently during storms? If yes, what did you do to mitigate the annoyance?

This post has been edited by socratesman: Mar 15 2011, 12:30 PM

disconnected mine for the same reason. 100mA provides no safety anyway to humans. neither does 30 mA - you would need max. of 10mA for that.

Probably fault happened to your earthing....nobody use 10mA sensitivity at home lar...

nope all is perfectly well. and 10 mA is the recommended trip threshold in europe. any higher and its deadly for humans anyway so there is little point in having the ELCB for the purpose of saving a life anyway.

ermm...i said 100mA

change to better brand of ELCB/RCCB...GE, Hager....

IEE now states RCD (previously ELCB/RCCB were used).

10mA - 30 mA. Trip within 30 ms for shocks to person.

Protection against fire- up to 100mA.

Should use surge arrestor to protect your home.

use 300mA la then...
less tripping

You can use 300mA for the main incomer however not necessary protect against lightning.

Maybe there's something wrong with your wiring.. some leakage somewhere..

Install auto reset ELCB

Hi,
Saw your msg above while searching for solution to frequent lighning power trip.
I encountered exactly the same problem using the same RCCB/ELCB from MEM.
Did you find a solution?
If so, would appreciate if you can share it with me.
Thank You
Have a nice day.

instead of 40A type maybe try using the 63A type.

Tks for the input.
I am already using the 63A type.
Here is the spec on my MEM RCCB

Manufacturer: MEM
Model:632ELMN
In=63A
Ioan=100ma
Un=240V~

Would it help if using Ioan of 300ma or 500ma?

Thank You

This post has been edited by helob: Oct 30 2011, 02:41 PM


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In = 40A / 63A indicates the Max carry amp of the RCCB. It means, if you install a 40A RCCB, but you are running 50A of load, it will trip. This protect from overload.

Ioan is the sensitivity of the RCCB. Ideally, Live + Neutral = 0, if Live + Neutral /= 0, leakage happen. But, there's no ideal in real life, so, comes the Ioan where it is the tolerance the device will accept before registering the leakage as a fault, in your case, 100mA.
Generally, for lighting circuit, 100mA is used, 30mA is used for power circuit and 300mA for Air-Con.

As for your problem, how old is your house, particularly, the electrical wiring? The older the wiring, the higher the probability of leakage through wires due to degration of the insulator.

Proper solution, do a complete insulation test to the whole house, or change all the wiring. Improve your house earthing system.

Cheap solution, which profesional do not agree, but client will usually do due to cost saving. Use higher tolerance RCCB or use ELCB instead.

No matter how do it, make sure other than the fuse, there's at least a protection device in place.

Thanks for the very informative feedback.
My house is well over ten years as I bought it ten years ago.
You are most probably right that some wire insulation has degraded to a point where there is earth leakage during lightning which trip the RCCB.
My thought was to isolate certain area/wiring where leakage is suspected by selectively turn off the DPN MCB during lighning.
What is the best method of identifying the area/wiring other than doing a complete insulation test for the whole house?
Typically how long and the cost of doing a complete insulation test for a semi-D single storey house?
I thought RCCB is the current version of ELCB.
Pls elaborate on "use ELCB instead"
TQ and have a nice day.

why nobody mention about grounding.. there was a thread about this and most replies mentioned about improving the wire grounding..

didn't realise helpful helob resurrected my thread lol

After some research, I suspect background leakage from the internal wiring (my house is 30+ yrs old).
Say, maybe about 60-70mA worth of background leakage between Live and Neutral.
So the tiniest of surges from lightning could be enough to send the Live-Neutral delta over 100mA => TRIP

damn, now must check all the circuits in the house..mafan

Insulation test is very tedious job. Have to dismantle all lighting and power point from its appliances, and it might damage your existing wirie insulation since during insulation test, 1kV(can set to 500V) will be injected to the circuit to stress the wiring. If your wire insulation "almost going to die" after the injection, most probably going to "die" for good. We only do insulation test if the house wiring is still new, or when we know which particular circuit giving the problem. Not to mention, i don't think your local neighbourhood electrician know what is "insulation test".

RCCB are replacing ELCB and both are two different thing with different protection method which you can easily google it up.

One of my suggestion is to improve the earthing system as well. But it will involve lots of $$ especially lately where copper price are still at it high side.


As i suggested earlier to helob, either change the house wiring, use less sensitive RCCB, use back the primitive ELCB, improve your earthing system, or change to other protection system such as using adjustable ELR with a shunt trip coil, or just leave it as is, standby at the DB during thunder.

What is your findings so far?
Care to share!
Tks

Anyone heard of self reset-ing ELCB ?

Am curious on how this resetting ELCB works. The ELCB is supposed to trip when there is a fault in the circuit. Auto resetting without establishing the fault first, would that be dangerous?

can be bought but they only reset three times before a manual reset is required. they are meant for unammned outstation places. if you want self resetting safe the money and just remove the existing one. safety wise its (almost) the same

Maybe u try playing around with the little MCB switches and try to narrow down which circuit is causing the trip during lightning?

is there a device that we can use to check and find out the problems ???

Yes, someone already mention it before.

Better check on your house earthing ... if trip during lightning ... Or you can try changing your RCCB to those like Hager RCCBs that is designed with an anti-nuisance tripping feature, which do not unnecessarily tripped unless there is a genuine earth fault.

This post has been edited by Zestune: Nov 11 2011, 01:36 AM

There is also electronic selectable sensitivity to adjuct from 0.1A to 1A cut off.

Anyway having it trip during lightning isn't good as it try block surge from entering your electrical appliances.

Btw MCB is meant for overload cut off. It trips whenever the load (amperage) goes beyond the rated. Usually it trips when Live wire shorted to Neutral. ELCB trips whenever there is leakage on Neutral. For example, Live or Neutral wire is leak to the earth, it trips.

To test how good is your electrical grounding, get a MEGA tester or insulation tester. Calculation based on OHM.

OHM = ??

nvm found out its also ohm / resistance calculation

This post has been edited by JinXXX: Nov 11 2011, 03:06 PM

MCB detects overcurrent. Say, a 2.5HP aircon connected to 10A MCB, MCB will trip.
ELCB detects if any current running in the Earth conductor
RCCB detects residue current between L&N.

Earth Resistivity (Electrical Grounding) test using Earth Tester. Calculated in Ohm, the lower the ohm the better it is.

Insulation Tester (Mega Tester) is test the insulation capability of the cables. Measured in MOhm. The higher it is, the better.

Both Earth tester and insulation tester are not cheap at hundreds.

+1

Hi,
As mention the ELCB for 100mA will trip frequently during storms is a norm. Its prove that your ELCB working. If the ELCB never trip at all, you are in trouble. ELCB is a safety device used in electrical installations with high earth impedance to prevent SHOCK and to protect your SENSITIVE equipment/home appliances.

The ELCB rating should be as low as possible to prevent shock; do you think that 100mA is safe enough for human and equipment? NO. IEC 60479 stated that human cannot take in more than 7mA of leakage current. More than that are critical level and may cause to DEATH. Unfortunately, the current ELCB lowest rating is 10mA whereby still a risk to human against SHOCK. If you choose to use 30mA at your main, you will complain that it trip more frequent as compare to your assisting one (100mA).

I have the solution where comply to IEC 60479 and eliminate nuisance trip…

100ma is complusary for main switchboard.cant use more than that according to regulation.nuisance tripping occured during lightning strike due to current imbalance between live and neutral.so its pretty normal.lightning wave travel frm tnb cables to ur house.its not about the lightning is far...

---

Added on October 27, 2012, 5:17 pmiec stated min is 30ma to prevent frm direct contact.not 7ma.100ma is for domestic application as per regulation.30ma is for final circuit or special location

---

Added on October 27, 2012, 5:23 pmelcb and rccb serve same purpose..elcb is old term and has been raplaced with rccb


This post has been edited by jack~daniel: Oct 27 2012, 05:23 PM

My house also get nuisance trip during thunder storm, I plan to change the TBC 100mA RCCB to Hager 100mA RCCB, would it help? and where to get the Hager RCCB?

if your earth is good it *might* help. do note that in my personal opinion you dont need an ELCB at all if you decide to go higher than 30mA. Its no use. The ELCB is meant to save a humans life if they get into the circuit. If your cutoff level is already deadly why even bother with it? Either you do it properly or no need to do at all. If nobody gets inside the circuit you're pretty safe without an ELCB.

If using 30mA then I expect the nuisance trip will even worst!

Actually the 100mA is good enough, it trip yesterday when the aircon installer accidentally touch the wire.

I think most house in Malaysia use 100mA by default.

Not true. I been using 30mA for many many yrs. Last time I always have this nuisance tripping. Go to electrical shop and ask for the solution from the bos. Told me to change to a better 1 and abit expensive. Brand hager and cost rm120. Change it and now less trip.

Use a better way to solve the problem and not downgrade the safety. You still have a solution like earthing and surge protector.

Thanks for the advice, I will give it a try, Where can I get Hager brand in Klang Valley area? Can I get it at Jalan Pasar?

Find the root cause of the problem. Keep increasing the tolerance must as well bypass ELCB run without safety.

The original RCCB from the house developer is 100mA. Trip like hell. Change it to better brand Hager 30mA. Less trip.

So it doesn't logic to me that 100mA give less problem. And compromise the safety.

You can get it at any electrical shop. It is not branded item now.

Here are some information and understanding about RCCB.

 RCD_The_Best_Way_To_Guarantee_Electrical_Safety_At_Home1.pdf ( 60.29k ) Number of downloads: 939
 RCD_The_Best_Way_To_Guarantee_Electrical_Safety_At_Home.pdf ( 129.5k ) Number of downloads: 840


Why nuisance trip, what happen and some solution without compromise the safety.

 Solution.pdf ( 171.31k ) Number of downloads: 1641


This post has been edited by ozak: Dec 1 2012, 05:58 PM

can we buy and fix the RCCD ourself to replace my told ELCB ? 15 years no touch/change it..

or its better to recommend an "ëlectrician" to fix it ?

Can it trip? Press the test button to try it.

You can change it yourself. Not difficult. Just makesure OFF the main MCB or takeout the fuse. 2 wire in and 2 wire out. Some maybe have direction of incoming and outgoing. Some don't.

If no confident, buy the RCCB and ask the bos change it for you. Pay some fee.

My parent house happen too only when got lighting. Without lighting everything o.k. The house only 7 years. Any solution for me?

Asking Hager 30mA RCCB around 5 shops in Puchong and Serdang, none of them carry 30mA, so just get the 100mA for RM80

I'm planing to install 30mA sensitivity RCBO to replace the MCB for the electric shower heater, is it better than install 30mA at the main switch?

Beside hager, you can get the ABB anti nuisance trip 30mA RCCB. Read the pdf file above.

RCBO is a good idea too. It have extra protection than RCCB. It use after the main RCCB.

I m using RCD+fuse 30mA for heater, kitchen and fountain. Install inside toilet nearer to heater.

has anybody used AOELEC Auto Reclosing (Resetting) RCCB before ?

How is the effectiveness ?

I understand it can auto rest 3 times and after the third time it has to be manually reset (for safety reason).
Can the resetting time be adjustable, ie to auto set after say 30 minutes it has tripped?

How much is the cost per unit ?

Thanks in advance.

dennis

Please don't be silly to disconnect it as it's for your own protection. Many times that my RCCB has tripped, it's due to some malfunction in my house electrical equipment. Sometimes there's a residual leak in your house that's tripping your ELCB/RCCB.

disconnecting an ELCB that cant by definition do what it should do because the threshold is too high is not silly. if the ELCB will only act AFTER its too late because its rating is too high what's the use? i can also place another spare on on top of my meter for the looks of it and it would have almost the same effect.

Its normal for RCCB to trip during lightning strike, its nothing to do with rccb sensitivity, rccb trip due to current imbalance between live n neutral, to avoid rccb from tripping during lightning strike, use S-Type RCCB/anti nuisance rccb.

U can get at any hardware electrical shop...

its nothing to do with good earth, but rccb must be connected to the earth in order for rccb to trip. RCBB installation is compulsory according to Malaysia regulation and some of british colonial country, most of the low voltage system adapted TT system. 30mA sensitivity is used for handheld equipment such as socket outlet, according to malaysia law, all scoket outlet must be connected to 30mA. For the main RCCB must use max 100mA sensitivity.

The question is , does 100mA can save the human live?, the answer is yes...please refer to iec 60479 for more details. Please note that rccb main function is to protect human being/livestock from indirect electrical shock, not from direct electrical shock.

Rccb/elcb must be tested at least once for every 2 years. If ELCB/RCCB is voltage operated, its compulsory to change to current operated. All the electrical installation must be installed by competent person according to malaysia law.

use RCCB + Autoreset. U also can use S type RCCB, but im not sure about the regulation because they didnt stated either G type or S type.

RCBO normally is used for final circuit, not intended to be used for main circuit,

According to Malaysia regulation, for shower heater u must use 10mA sensitivity, but most of shower heater nowadays equipped with 10mA rccb.

Its not advisable to use 30mA for main circuit, it may cause nuisance tripping, u have to consider the leakage from the inductance load such as freeze, lighting,computer,air cond...for the equipment with energy saver, most of it contribute to high leakage current such as inverter aircond, computer & etc.

Auto reset usually is used for industrial application, not for domestic application, but it doesnt matter since its not stated in the law.

Most of autoreset will fall under permanent trips after 3 times tripping in certain period, but its not for safety reason, its to differentiate whether it is nuisance tripping or permanent tripping.

30 minutes is too long, standard practice is 1 min for Malaysia because the lightning strike is frequent, most for the europe country is 3 sec.

For the ABB the cost is around RM800, but not reliable....

i would recommend mikimoto brand, but the price is twice than abb and more reliable.

Please be remind that rccb main function is to protect from indirect contact, not for direct contact, even 300mA sensitivity still can protect from electrical shock.Please read iec 60479 for more details, its depend on the time to disconnect from the current and the magnitude of leakage current. Yes 10mA and 30mA can protect from direct electrical shock, but its not practical to use for the main circuit...

ok, scenario..There's a short/earth leakage in the kettle. ELCB/RCCB detects it and turns off power. If the ELCB didn't work, you could have touched the kettle and electrocuted yourself.

scenario 2.. You touch a live wire and current starts flowing through you. Since it's electricity, your muscles seize and you can't let go. RCCB detects it and cuts off the power. 10mA flows through you compared to 10000mA.

The amount of of mA that it takes to kill you is very subjective. It depends on the path to ground. Whether it goes thru your heart or not etc.

This post has been edited by jovial: Mar 28 2013, 07:50 AM

hi, I am facing rccb tripping during lightning.. currently using TBC 63A 100mA rccb..

I would like to try the Hager Anti Nuisance rccb.. may I know which model have the "Anti Nuisance" feature? or any Hager rccb are equipped with this feature?

Thank you..

It is a RCD. Brand MK. Don't think can get it here and not selling anymore. Order it from UK 13yrs ago.

I am searching to increase the sensitivity of my RCCD to induce more frequent tripping and saw this forum...totally opposite of what i m looking for but here is my comment...Increasing RCCD beyond 100mA is dangerous, please avoid doing so, RCCD is installed to save lifes.
If it is due to lightning, a good surge protection device (SPD/TVSS) will be able to solve the problem, increase in surge will be absorb by the device, look for 1 with 10 modes protection if tripping is too frequent, otherwise 7 modes protection device is sufficient for a house and choose 1 with the longest warranty (rules of thumb..length of warranty=quality), my problem was sorted out...using an american brand, Sine Tamer.

my rccd VL brande 100mA 63A provided by my developer keeps tripping especially lightning times.

i did a check on the life terminal to fuse switch 63A. I notice the incoming from TNB. the terminal is lose. u can slide up and down the life wire with slight force. when i dismantle the fuse switch. i saw inside connector clamp all purple. i presume this was bad installation from developer.

will this be the reason it cause the rccb to trip. if i tighten the wire connection will the prob solve.

thanks and appreciate the advice.

i check the tnb copper wire slightly darker. there are no arching marks on the wire and terminal of fuse switch. just the connectors on fuse switch turns purple. i sand paper life the tnb wire with protective glove to prevent electric shock. i already retighten the connection. i am currently monitor the situation.

under normal operating condition all appliances and lighting works perfectly fine for years. the tripping on rccb is only during lightnings. so long none of mcb trips at all.

anyone had observation this prob in nature cause rccb trips?

This post has been edited by toh2020: Dec 25 2013, 07:57 AM

You are playing with high voltage live wires. This is the job for TNB, not even the developer. Wearing protective gloves is not enough, you should also wear rubber boots and a plastic or wooden stool/ladder on dry floor.

Loose cable can cause rccb to trip I had similar experience but I called TNB and they fixed it for free.

rubber shoes on top of wooden chair with rubber cushion on dry floor. forgot to mention that.

my house at USJ 11 area.
always tripped when got thunderstorm.
i am using Hager ELCB 0.1mA.
Any idea if somethg that can reset back?
I am worry bout long holiday because i need electricity for my cctv and fridge.

what is the model of your ELCB? I presume should be RCCB for newer houses.

Sometimes by changing to a new RCCD will solve the problem even with same brand and made. Even thunderstorm is far away it can affect the RCD to trip. if that is the case get it changed.

There are other causes like loose connection that increase and decrease the resistance and sometimes due to live or neutral wires touching some metal that linked the house like the plaster ceiling metal trusses that are usually connected to earth via the downlight reflector holder. Even if you call an electrician to check it will hell of a puzzle. But never change to higher rating even if being advised to lessen the sensitivity.

even big pure electrical shop nearby my area hardly can hardly get any 100mA rccb. due to demand and supply from the neighbourhood 300mA are selling like hot cakes. they said change your original from 100mA to 300mA solve your problems. most of my neighbours did that and they had no tripping problem especially lightnings.

No trip no protection, Already with 100ma you could be half dead. then don't use at all if tripping is the real problem, afterall it serves no real protection. There are many 30ma around not only 0.1ma except that it is more expensive. I am not being sarcastic, just that you mislead other people and it is an advice you ought to take.

we all in the neighbourhood are told by dealer and local electrician that 300mA safer.

for my case i m monitoring current 100mA rccb and fuse switch after tightening. i update if there are updates.

You are mis inform. 300mA is not safer. You get short and the rccb is not easily trip. That's not call safer.

Lightning happen and the rccb not easily trip. That is call better.

100mA is more easily trip because it is more sensitive to detect minor fault. Which of course have problem with big bow of lightning. The easy and less cost way is just change it to 300mA. It still will trip but lesser.

look like mass are misinformed. this make sense why those local electric shops had so much abundant stock of 300mA rccbs. the misinformed public in large perceive the solution was best way out. just like monkey see monkey do.

meaning the lesser the mA the better protection.

well I had my fuse switch replaced. as mention before due to loose contact with TNB L wire. the inner components are toasted but it had been working all while for years. here are the pictures. the connectors are all dark purple.

The meaning of the number like 100mA or 300mA is how much the current detect will trip the rccb. Lower figure is safer.

The purple color is the constant hot temperature at the contact surface surrounding side. After long period of hot temperature, the material will change color. That show ..
1) A high current is flowing without sufficient surface contact between. Create a bottle neck at that place. This cost resistance and hot temperature occur.
2) Loose connection cost the electron hard to flow over within 2 contact. Occasionally some spark will happen. Resistance and hot temperature occur.

If you can, change that fuse holder to mcb type. Outside your house beside the meter is already have the fuse protect. (black square box) You don't need another fuse in the DB box. That is for the developer cut cost. MCB have better switch surface contact.

Just my bullshit CSI. He....

63A MCB? i had given thoughts about it. however my TNB L wire comes from bottom. Hence just nice to insert into INCOMING ONLY on the fuis switch from bottom up. while for MCB the L wire is not sufficient long to go on top of the incoming terminal. cause the wiring configuration is top down. which is reason i practically notice L wire shorter than N. cause the TNB N wire by defaults go to incoming N of RCCB from top which more longer.

Just put the MCB upside down. The look is same. Just the switch handle opposite.

good suggestion..

since I already installed replaced the new fuse switch. might as well monitor till next thunderstorm.

I do believe there is loss of energy due to heat built up on old fuse switch. which causes in-balance in 2 way current all while. which why during lightings the tolerance no longer there.

btw any comment which is best rccb to date with anti-nuisance tripping. currently using this rccb. anyone had any comments or experiences on this VL rccb product provided by developer.

i also got tripping during lightning even far away

using ABB RCCB 100mA

This post has been edited by ycs: Dec 27 2013, 02:56 PM

I hv two. One 100ma for whole house, one 30ma for my koi pond. No tripping problem

any particular reason in isolating the pond circuit?

i also happen to have a koi pond in the garden. could that be causing the tripping?

I remember abb have some device that can prevent trip from lightning. It just install beside the mcb.

Your rccb is fine. So for easy solution, just change it to 300mA.

I did say no tripping problem, didn't I?

According to Fengshui, fire and water do not get along well. Electricity running the water pump being fire and pond is water it means danger. To double protect I added the 30ma RCD to the pond circuit.

When you have a pond you should have it protected with another RCD. Few years back there was news kid(s) killed playing water of a fountain but no further news on that what cause the electrocution. You see, without a sensitive RCD I will not dare touching the pond water. It is just like having a seat belt plus airbag driving. It is not if but when accident will happen.

you mentioned before 100mA should be safer. btw which model of ABB which deem popular?

This --> "So for easy solution"

For proper way, that cost you a lot. Try check at ABB site.

By the way, if you suspect your koi pond is causing the trip, you better don't touch the water.

Ain't the fish already belly up?

It will not unless there is a connection/leaked to earth. The pond water is contained or isolated in the pond so when there is no earth (current got nowhere to go) it is not passing any bodies just like birds sitting on overhead live wires and dont die and fall.

You can put a bulb in a glass water tank and a +ve live wire, the bulb wont light up. You use a test pen tip touching a house live wire and your finger at the other end of the test pen (like you used to test for live current) and you are wearing rubber shoes, the test pen hard to get light up becuase there is no proper connection to earth but when you touch something like a concrete wall the test pen lights up without hesitation Dont play play

The word is dont touch the water. You can jump into the water and still live. Touch die, jump no die.

how much will they cost me. Care to share with me reference price tag? Whereabouts to get great deals at reasonable prices.

Hello good people, am reviving an old thread.



We've had this for 15 years. Whenever there's lightning, even in the far distance (a thunder as loud as a silent fart), a trip can happen. Can't quite remember anymore if this has been happening since the very beginning or if it's gradual. One thing that's for sure is I'm pretty tired of it.

So if we do have wiring leakage, by changing 'technologies' (some modern RCD?) will it help? Or irregardless of what circuit breaker we use, is it advisable to fix leaks anyway? My imagination tells me that trying to figure out where leaks are is no sane task.

What's the current contemporary recommended ELCB/ELCB-like device?

I've also posted in: http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/97138

This post has been edited by biatche: Aug 13 2014, 10:30 PM

anyone know where to get a rccb auto recloser that can be set to 10 minutes or more?

Usually I will prefer manual reset ELCB, as when ELCB trips, it show something wrong. Is better to make sure all appliance are intact before reset. This is for safety.

Whenever RCCB/ELCB trips, it means something is not right in the circuit, and may require manual attention.

Auto-closed reset is defying the safety purpose of RCCB/ELCB.

I dont understand why people feel tripping is a nuisance..

Its for protection, and tripping actually proves your protection works.

Could be from the surge also..

Since 100A would also trip, then change back to 30A..

With regards to koi pond using 30A, I believe (apart from fengshui POV) it is to protect your pump motor..