i have to disagree with the bold part. No doubt liverpool did play a part but youth development is equally as important. Liverpool will not even have transferred for him if they din spot his potential, will they?

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Added on May 13, 2011, 11:57 pmLol...I think he is more consistent than guti, but when guti sometimes hits full throttle he is almost like xavi.

This post has been edited by myhotgary2: May 13 2011, 11:57 PM

not to argue.. but dont even know that.. thanks for da info..

at least arbeloa @ rm got regular football than @ liverpool just the benchwarmer...

It is a generational thing. Before Xavi, Iniesta, Messi you could say only Pep was at their level. I would hardly consider Ferrer world class. You might as well consider Arbeloa one of our great products then (which he is not obviously). And before Pep...my Barca knowledge isn't the best I admit but I don't know any world class players produced before him. Maybe you should enlighten me.
As far as I know, most of the best players in Barca's history: Kubala, Cruyff, Maradona, Laudrup, Romario, Ronaldo, etc were all bought. If you compare the two clubs' histories in totality you could say that we've produced more homegrown talent actually. You need that ounce of luck to provide you with the group of players who have that initial something special. Stories of Messi and Iniesta crushing teams single handedly in their youth have made their rounds before. After Raul's group, the world class talent just wasn't coming for us but I know for a fact that our upcoming generation has some special talent in there. They're still a little too young to make the grade yet of course so we'll just have to wait and see.

But I agree the difference currently is the difference in attitudes the two clubs take when grooming youngsters to make that transition into the senior team. Madrid just don't know how to get players to step up from the youth system to the first team. And that's where Barca should be commended. It's something I'd like to see being emulated at Madrid.

And Borja will never be the next Guti. The guy is already 26 years old and this is his first real breakout season. Some players peak later but sadly at Madrid we just don't have the patience. But I don't think it's a decision we regret really. Mata on the other hand was just being greedy so no regrets there either.

Well to put things into perspective La Masia only existed since 1979. To compare achievement of both clubs's in grooming local players throughout history is a bit unfair. Real had already had their system in place significantly longer than Barca. Real already had their reserve team in place since 1950s.

Messi debuted 6 years after Xavi, and Xavi 8 years after Pep. Are they in the same generation? I really think they are not. They represent different eras.

Its true the number of quality grads coming out from La Masia may be varied for each era they represent. But each eras have examples showing Barca's commitment in homegrown talent. During Pep's era, Ferrer managed to get more than 200 appearances, although as you said, he was not the most talented footballer. Busquets Sr. was the understudy for Zubi for several years. During Xavi's era, we had him playing over 100 games for us. Now we are struggling with Bojan. See? The commitment haven't died down. Vastly different compared to Real Madrid.

I believe this something Cules can be really proud of. And of course for the fact that despite Real Madrid's rich history of producing Spanish National players, La Masia was the first system to provide Top 3 Winners of FIFA POTY

How is that unfair when Barca were founded before Madrid? The fact we put a system in place earlier just showed that the club did have a commitment to producing its own players at that time.

I think you can consider Messi and Xavi the same generation seeing as they both play in the same team. Pep's team was the original Dream Team.
I think the biggest credit has to go to your scouts. Picking up Messi and Iniesta were the best moves that your club have made in recent history. And the fact that Iniesta was from Albacete and wanted to join Madrid initially just shows luck does play a part some times. His parents didn't like the location of our youth setup and the rest is history.

But frankly to judge Real Madrid's commitment to youth systems based on such a small period in the club's whole history is ridiculous (taking your words: unfair ). We've shown that we can produce world class talent with Raul's group and the Quinta del Buitre before that. If you look at Fergie's Fledgings for example, the fact that Man Utd haven't really produced anyone of note to replace Giggs or Scholes, doesn't means they've lost their commitment to their youth system. The difference really is not as huge as you exaggerated. You need the stars to align so to speak to get world class talent churning out. And a little patience of course (something which Madrid currently lacks but we're seeing a slow change in direction now)

Bojan's situation with Soldado is similar for example. They both scored goals for fun at youth levels but have since struggled to make their mark in the first team. And whereas Bojan is still languishing at your bench, Soldado is carving out a nice little career for himself at Valencia. Bojan is younger of course so it remains to be seen whether he can up his game. Again as I said you need that luck with youngsters sometimes. Some have the mental capacity to play for such a big club like Madrid or Barca, some don't.

Yeah it's a tremendous achievement. And alot of credit should go to Pep I feel. He's made a machine out of you guys.

This post has been edited by verx: May 14 2011, 11:22 AM

Then ill follow what matyrze has said, at the very first point real madrid wouldnt have let him go for another club. Im sure a big club like real madrid can offer him something

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Added on May 14, 2011, 3:30 pmyou are wrong here. He was a regular at liverpool. go and check his stats. now u miss another thing besides the messi from youth thingy.

This post has been edited by mrkenn: May 14 2011, 03:31 PM

LOL you are bringing up history from like 60 years ago. OK I'm going to admit; Real Madrid was among the first to show commitment in youth development in Spain after the Basques. Happy? Barca on the other hand was founded by a foreigner, so it is understandable we were more open to foreign services back then. Catalans seem to be receptive to this 'foreign invasion', although a small group of Catalan refused, and founded Espanyol instead. So there, I've given you a piece of history that perhaps you want to hear from a Cule.

However, La Masia was founded in 1979, and I think its a little more fair to judge Barca's commitment after that period, because only then we had a youth system in place. Before that, we rely solely on feeder clubs. IINM Charly Rexach hailed from this feeder clubs system.



They play in the same team, but the huge period between their debut show they came from different generations of La Masia products. 6 years period is too far apart to be considered generational.

Yes luck do play some part, but its not a matter of luck when we decided to put our trust and patience upon Iniesta. IMHO, Spain always have tremendous footballing talent pool. It has always been. I'm sure talents are in abundance in Real's system too. The difference is just the commitment.



I believe I didn't exaggerate. Based on my observation on both Man Utd and Real, after the outstanding generation came out, both clubs tried different approach of youth development. Instead of grooming them in house, both clubs sent their talented youngsters to other clubs, either on loan deal or with buyback clause. Man Utd have been using that Belgian (iinm) team, sending talented foreign youngsters they signed. You guys have been supplying players for Getafe in several years now.

Barca on the other hand, groomed selected youngsters in house. We tried with a wobbly Valdes, inconsistent Puyol, brilliant Xavi but often compared unfairly to Pep, and a very skinny and quiet Iniesta. Never did we send any of them on loan. This set Barca apart from the rest. For other clubs, youth development seem to be a generational thingy because their commitment is actually conditional, depending on how the club is doing.

I don't know why people take this generational argument seriously. A reputable youth academy should always have the most talented youngsters by theory. The facility in the academy often improved rather than being left to rot. So although not all products are quality, at least there should be 1 quality graduates from each generation coming out from each academy. Real Madrid system for example, have produced numerous quality players playing for other clubs. Even now, Madridistas are raving about current batch of youngsters coming out. But for them to claw a regular place in Real first team slot is another story altogether.

I've heard Pablo Sarabia several years ago, wonder how he is doing now

Yeap, Pep is brilliant isn't he? Yes admittedly he is still a rookie in certain aspect. Well he is a brilliant rookie manager then

You guys should found this article interesting http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial...ank-real-madrid

Interesting for us, or interesting to you because Barca 'learned' from your club? Yes it was Cruyff who suggested to Barca president to set up a youth academy, but I'm not quite sure whether it has anything to do with Real's achievement. As far as I know Cruyff shared his knowledge from his time at Ajax. But am not going to dwell too much on who learned from whom. What I do know is to measure Barca's commitment in youth system, we have to start when the system is already in place, not before that.

For me, Barca has been consistent, while RM have been kinda on-off.

LOL you're the one who brought up history 1st not me

You keep claiming it's not a generational thing but the fact is it's only the current Barca side that can actually claim that most of the key players are all from La Masia.
Even during Pep's time it was Laudrup pulling the strings, Stoichkov scoring the goals. Heck after that era Barcelona changed to the Dutch national team. You're going to say La Masia were consistently producing world class talent then as well? If you're going to count the likes of Oleguer or Ferrer as Barca consistently producing then why not admit that the likes of Granero and Arbeloa who have played roles this season as proof that Madrid's youth policy is still working? Because we sold them and bought them later? This is why I say you're exaggerating.
And if you're going to include Pedro (who joined Barca at 17) as part of your youngster graduates then might as well include Higuain and Marcelo as ours as well (both joined at 19, 18 respectively, so not much diff there) since you know we literally groomed them. So is Fabregas a La Masia or Arsenal graduate now?

You make it sound like there is a Messi being produced every generation in Spain alone. If it were the case, Barca wouldn't have needed to bring Messi all the way from Argentina .
We have been producing quality players. La Liga quality yes. Real Madrid quality? I'm not too sure about that. But I agree that Madrid need to be a little more patient. We are already starting to see a change this season with a few cantera players having made their debuts and Morata being promised promotion for next season.

You haven't been in touch? He's already made his CL debut
The boy is still only 17 and he's been helping Castilla to get promoted to Segunda A. He will play 1 more year for Castilla I reckon.

No arguments there

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Added on May 14, 2011, 7:55 pmIt's statements like this that boggle my mind. History has proven otherwise.

This post has been edited by verx: May 14 2011, 07:55 PM

I always remind people to get their facts right before they post. So, I would like to ask since when he become a benchwarmer at liverpool? He was easily one of the key player in our squad.

In his first season where he joined midway of the season, he has 14 appearances.
Second season, he played 41 games.
In his last season, he played 43 games.

I would like to ask which part of this shows he is a benchwarmer for our club?

This post has been edited by solstice818: May 14 2011, 08:17 PM

Although many of previous products were not world class, they still managed to accumulate a significant number of games for Barca. This is why I don't regard Granero and Arbeloa as the evidence showing RM commitment. They haven't accumulated enough games to justify Real's commitment. Only Arbeloa has the biggest chance to get games. What about Granero? Negredo? They did managed to get a sniff of the first team, but they never have the chance to nail a place in RM first eleven.



Pedro technically was a La Masia student, although he had a short stint in the academy. So yes Tenerife should get most of the credit. But when people say he was a graduate, it is not that wrong is it? At least Pedro regards himself as a La Masia graduate.



No no I was not saying every generation should have Messi in it, but more like Pedro's quality. You know, with La Liga standards. And as you mentioned Real Madrid produced a lot of those players. But Real Madrid showed lack of intention to integrate these lower quality players into their system. So yes, I say Pedro's (or maybe you can put Busquets here) talent is not world class. He is good, but not a world beater. But Barca found a place for him in the system, and not just a squad player, but as the main front three. This is the difference Barca have compared to anyone else.

Oh yes, it was versus Auxerre.

And apparently it was his only appearance for the whole season, and it was only for 18 minutes.

And no he is 19, assuming UEFA's done their homework here.

And I've heard Castilla's progress. But I'm gonna bet Sarabia will be another Soldado case.

Im sorry to say but I think that there are more Madrid youth players making it at the top rather than Barca's player. I have no time or desire to google up on it but ya know, it's the feeling I get.

Sometimes I feel like geez, why are so many top players from Madrid youth teams who play in a top club that is not in Real Madrid like Valero, Mata, Soldado.

We at Barca can only claim Cesc to be a Barca product that is a top player.

That brings me to my next question.
Are Barca bred players only suitable for Barca style of play.
It kinda makes sense since they all play in ONE and ONLY way.
So if they go to another club other than Arsenal, they will feel a cultural shock so to say. Different style, tactc etc.

Arbeloa has been getting games. Granero has played a smaller part but he's still only 23. Still abit too early to judge imo. Negredo? Isn't our player and isn't good enough.
And the likes of Pavon and Raul Bravo did get minutes with the senior squad. We prefer to forget about them of course cause they were disasters Kinda reminds me of Oleguer. God I miss him

I don't have a problem with it. Then following that logic Higuain, Marcelo and Gago are our graduates. And Fabregas is an Arsenal graduate

Pedro may not be a world beater but he has tremendous mental capacity which makes him able to play under the pressures of a big club. For every Pedro you have a Bojan or a Gio dos Santos.
I think of all the players we've produced recently, only Mata is probably good enough to play for us. But circumstances didn't fall our way. When a player chooses a bigger contract over playing for the biggest club in the world then you have to question his ambition as well.

Oh and I think we'll be bringing back Callejon so it's not like we've totally abandoned every player that has left us. There's a reason why we include buyback clauses

Ah my bad he is 19 already. But I doubt he'll be anything like Soldado
He is very highly rated but his small size is the factor why he hasn't made the step up yet.

Anyway we could go on and on and we would still never find a middle road. Just agree to disagree then

TL;DR
Tak nak kalah cakap je la...

Pedro didn't instantly get into the barcelona first team when he first joined. But he actually played a part of barcelona b(reserves team) before he slowly get chances to be in the senior team. Higuain and marcelo are different, they were bought from another club, expected to provide backup towards the senior team or even making into the first team. Higuain alone costed 13 million euros, i don't know how much marcelo costed though,

This post has been edited by mrkenn: May 15 2011, 04:02 PM

Fine by me then

LOLOL You are getting back Callejon? For what now? Water boy? Just concentrate on playing Canales please.

I'll eagerly wait the day when Real continue their brilliant 'youth policy' when they send away Sarabia to Getafe or something. Or maybe to Espanyol since Getafe has been given some Dubai gold mine?

Nvm, I sudah biasa dengan dia dah

i think it`s official...

Wow look nice the jersey..

funny, how a team of RM caliber would want a benchwarmer from another team as regular

As for the debate on youth policy, from the outside looking in, Barca seems to produce more youth in their team due to the trust place on those youngsters as oppose to RM which seems to be impatient or rather reluctant to place their faith in youngsters. Pressure of expectation maybe??? But then again so does Barca.
Both academies attracts & produced loads of talents, which is understandable as who in their right mind would turn down 2 of the most appealing clubs in the world, hence the bigger pool & most talented players could be found in those academies.
But it seems RM youths are discard all over La Liga with buy back options, which seems like an insurance policy on RM part, which made RM sort of like adopting "look & see if the player make it". Whereas Barca mostly played them in the team to see whether they make it. Thats the main difference that's obvious.