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prophetjul
post Apr 27 2012, 08:34 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 26 2012, 11:26 PM)
I find that for every answer I gave, you need to repeat the same question 2 or 3 times before you come to understanding, wah I definitely need a lot of patience.  biggrin.gif

From Post #1708

Well I challenge you to pull out my previous post to see If I said wealth is conclusive only to Material and Physical providence.
Pull it out and we'll see if indeed I have change my tune or it's just you have begun to start to comprehend sentences.  
I hope you realize the trouble that you went through, it's really your own doing.
From Post #1552[/b]

Thats because you are like a jello. Each [passing posts sees you chnaging a bit of your statemnets
ever so slightly. post 1708 is so so down the road already!YOur earlier posts about wealth were all alluded to material
wealth. Including having to SEE for faith to take place. Heb11 refutes that....
Your tune about wealth from the beginning was material, never spiritual till the last few posts.....


The word prosper is not only conclusive to material wealth alone, it encompass in all successful undertakings of whatever you do.
But never the less when I mentioned that God wants you to think prosperity Life, Immediately you quote in context of Material Wealth in Post #1498
and start to argue everything out of proportion.
If you check the dictionary the word prosperity is the state of flourishing, thriving, good fortune and / or successful social status.
LoL,

LOL....if thats the way you carry out interpretation of scriptures using CONTEMPORARY(i said this before) dictionaries, God help you.   nod.gif
Do you really think GOd is so bothered about your SOCIAL STATUS?   biggrin.gif
Only CARNAL christians who live in the flesh is bothered about SOCIAL status.
Even when Paul used that, its used as a GREETING. You make it into a doctrine using CONTmeporary thinking.
Well... got news for you: God used Hebriac thinking and paradigm through His nation of ISRAEL, not post modern worldviews!



I think now I see how you think. You actually thought the meaning of my post if a believer is in poverty then God will be disappointed with the believer's faith?

Answer is here From Post#1586


This is a matter of <insert*> misunderstanding principal. Nothing to do with pleasing God.

I left out the word *believer. The onus is on Believer not God.

Well I actually expected you to have better comprehension, that's why I thought you would understand.


i didnt think God will be dispppointed with the believer's faith. Thats iterrated from YOUR various arguements/reasons  that

a) God wants christians to be wealthy (a doctrine)
b) If you are not wealthy, you misunderstand God about prosperity and wealth(meaning lack of Faith)

i expected you UNDERSTAND exegesis by NOW. i tried to show you how your arguements method
shows that
a) Jesus was wrong to become poor
b) God was wrong to commend Smryna becuase they had a lack of faith, not understanding scriptures(according to you)


QUOTE
i showed you: Jesus became poor inspite of whatever reason.
God commends a poor church in smryna and call them RICH!
Faith is pleasing to God. God is pleased with Smryna.
Therefore Smryna has faith.

According to you: Smryna misunderstand God. Hows this pleasing to God?

According to you, the conclusion would be

a) Jesus misunderstood God and was wrong to become poor(forget the consequence)

b) God would be wrong to commend Smryna for their faith

Your exegesis of scripture is full of holes

The word Rich to you seems to all about material wealth.
Yet God calls Smryna RICH in their dire proverty...........Go figure.

There are more commands in Leviticus than Promises of God. I believe you should know all the OT Commands are all summed into only 2 command in the NT. I would appreciate if you know which blessing you're indicating, then I will tell you.

Here we go again....You said :

QUOTE
Well I beg to differ, the promises in OT is God inspired or God breath. It is used to apply for All generation that is and that is to come because God did mention He will bless All of Abraham's seed.

The OT applies simply because they are God's breath that transcend time and can be applied even until today.


QUOTE
    And i said

Many of The OT scriptures apply only to Israel. Did i say the whole OT does not apply to us?  
Especially Deuteronomy! It was a redress of God's commands to Israel before entering the promise land!
Diid you enter with Israel?
What you describe of Abraham is SPIRITUAL promises. Do you think the land promise appply to YOU, unless
you are an Israelite!  
Oh another thing, do you obey the 613 mitzvots? 



Do you obey the 613 mitzvots since you said they apply to us?
Why are you picking verses of prosperity which in its context is ISRAEL?
i asked you aboout Abraham's land promise. Does that apply to YOU?

Check back your post #1610 on the last part, if you accuse me of this, because

You shouldn't judge others dear brother because you yourself will be in judgement.

Read

Romans 14:4 and James 4:11

2 Tim 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
*



i print that out(to another poster?) to shew that scriptures are also used for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
If the first part is telling you something, then you better meditate on it because i DID NOT write those.
Those are from the scriptures! sweat.gif

So dont accuse me of carnal judgement.

Do the scriptures forbid judgement?

Appears you lack knowledge of CONTEXT of scriptures.
Romans 14:4 refers to FOOD, a minor issue
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?

James 4:11 refers to Ultimate judgement(krino) eg judgement of eternity.
We are NOT to do this. God is the ultimate JUDGE(Krites)

However on Discerning(Anakrino)

14But the natural man receivethnot the things of the Spirit of God: for they arefoolishness unto him: neither *can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned . 15But he that is spiritual judgethall things, yet he himself is judgedof no man.16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instructhim? But we have the mind of Christ.

On Deciding (Diakrino)
I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide [diakrino] between his brethren? (1 Corinthians 6:5).

29Let the prophets speaktwo or three, and let the other judge (1 Corinthians 14:29).

And ON Discerning (Kritikos)

For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge [kritikos] the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).





This post has been edited by prophetjul: Apr 27 2012, 09:48 AM
prophetjul
post Apr 27 2012, 12:27 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 27 2012, 11:15 AM)
From Post #1708

Well I challenge you to pull out any of my previous post to see If I said wealth is conclusive only to Material and Physical providence.
Pull it out and we'll see if indeed I have change my tune or it's just you have begun to start to comprehend sentences. 
And again I hope you realize the trouble that you went through, it's really due to your comprehension that's changing rather than my words changing.
I have out line about Faith and wealth here it is again.


Ok we will leave it at that since there will be too many posts to bring out.


Post#1498
Faith
Did you know that your thoughts is exactly your Faith? Because out of your thoughts, you translates motions into your actions from believes that becomes your Faith.

Thoughts are so powerful it becomes the only place that matters to Satan to destroy your life.

The mind is usually, the priority, the first place of attack. If he can convinced you in your mind that you're without hope, the rest will follow. If he can convince you'll always be in financial poverty in your mind, the rest will follow. If He can convince you'll never get well from your terminal illness, the rest will follow.

That is why some people can get into depression, anxiety, worry, emotional stress, etc, the list is endless.

If the devil can get hold of your mind under it's fingers, he'll have a "hell" of field day destroying you by making you think destructive and negative thoughts. IMO this will lead to more serious stage of attacks once He can establish a foothold in there.

But Praise God for providing us weapons to fight back all the lies. Just remember the Devil is the Father of all Lies and God is the Truth.

i agree with you here. Infact i juts had this devotion with my family last nite!  smile.gif

Choose God's truth over the Devil's Lies.
Again in Post #1498
Prosperity Thoughts

Look at the context of the my meaning in prosperity, don't believe? Go back to that post, it's posted in 16th April 2012.
Quoting God's word to pull down Satan's stronghold also happens in the mind. How do you do it? You quote the relevant verse against the situation and let it take root in your mind.

For example,

when you are in a financial need, you quote

i can accept that quote in Phillippians....except it does not necessaily mean material prosperity

when you're sick or unwell, you quote

QUOTE
Isaiah 53:5
with his stripes we are healed.

Hehe...another quote out of CONTEXT. The context of this PASSAGE is all about healing from
the consequences of TRANSGRESSION and INIQUITIES which are SPIRITUAL, not material.  nod.gif

QUOTE
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed . 6 All we like sheep have gone astray ; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed , and he was afflicted , yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb , so he openeth not his mouth.8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief : when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.11


It is not enough to just quote the words like some sort of a charm and see what happens.

Your Thoughts must line up with your Faith in action.

After quoting , EXPECT it in Faith that it is already there. Your Faith is what activates God to deliver you and to answer you. That's why 2 Corinthians 10 says mighty through God

Its not exactly Faith in 2cor10 mentioned. The weapons of warfare is the WORD of God irrespective of
one's faith.

Dear Friends, the Devil wants you to think Poverty Life, God wants you to think Prosperity Life (3 John 1:2)

Choose Today your thoughts. God's Thoughts or the Devil's thoughts.
Anywhere in those verse mention about Material? Accusing Jello, Flying in my face and so-so huh? rolleyes.gif

What are you on about here? hmm.gif
maybe thats why i cant understand you....



Well the reason why I asked you to check the dictionary because we must have a proper base of understanding what a word means.
Contemporary Dictionaries will give ALL the possible definitions to the meaning of a single word. In the dictionary the word prosperity is the state of flourishing, thriving, good fortune and / or successful social status which is correct. The word euodousthai points to a state of flourishing, that means successful undertakings.

Eudoo means good going,good life journey.... not goof FORTUNE and successful social status! rolleyes.gif
Thats one problem using contemporary dictionaries to define context of scriptures.
AND its a WISH by Paul, a GREETing ....no more...


Well Yes God cares enough to want to uplift your Life status, from glory to glory from victory to victory.

Life status inChrist ...YES....not necessairily materiallly see how ambigious you can get and cause me to misunderstand? whistling.gif

Only Carnal Christians bother to live in the flesh to condemn other Christians and do so out of pride. whistling.gif

Who did that? Condemn? The scriptures judge tho......

I have proven to you that All Scripture is God's breath, Even greetings can be used to speak to you.

Here it is again.

From Post#1548

The Lexicon explains that euodousthai is to help on the road, i.e. (passively) succeed in reaching; figuratively, to succeed in business affairs -- (have a) prosper(-ous journey).

Actually you're just enforcing the word Good. The actual translation of Greek is euodousthai is STILL prosperous journey.
Question is, if you insist it's a wish of a journey, my question is, journey to where? No doubt you can say it's a form of greeting in general but it wouldn't make sense because Gaius wasn't going anywhere at the point of greeting. Therefore it is really a form of general greeting wishing you a prosperous journey in life which is which is similar to wishing you prosperous in Life.

You state it. Life's journey as his soul propers.... a good life journey.

As I said before, All Scripture is God inspired. Even introduction greetings is God's messages reaching out to you through the pen stroke of the writer.

Yes. But you cannot speculate and create doctrine out of a greetin! Thats BAD exegesis

You're welcome to argue this but I don't see it'll get you anywhere. The definition is explained clearly here.
Since when did I say God will be disappointed with the believer's Faith? Go ahead and show us here.

You said i thought ler.....so i answered you......
QUOTE
LoL,

I think now I see how you think. You actually thought the meaning of my post if a believer is in poverty then God will be disappointed with the believer's faith?




And I expect you understand by now

Jesus being poor is irrelevant to your point.
Smyra is irrelevant to your point.

Its not irrelevant to proper exegesis. You statements present a problem with consistency of the scriptures
in describing God

Again...

i showed you: Jesus became poor inspite of whatever reason.
God commends a poor church in smryna and call them RICH!
Faith is pleasing to God. God is pleased with Smryna.
Therefore Smryna has faith.

According to you: Smryna misunderstand God. Hows this pleasing to God?

According to you, the conclusion would be

a) Jesus misunderstood God and was wrong to become poor(forget the consequence)

b) God would be wrong to commend Smryna for their faith

Your exegesis of scripture is full of holes

The word Rich to you seems to all about material wealth.
Yet God calls Smryna RICH in their dire proverty...........Go figure.



Here's the answer again in Post#1586
Smyra is an event in the future yet to happen. The Scripture tells us that they're going through some kind of affliction and their poverty is somehow related. The word Rich according to Barnes Note relates to God's favour and grace. Here if you study the scripture, God is acknowledging their (2) conditions. 1. Affliction 2. Poverty. That is the meaning of I know*
Well I did ask you to quote which part of the exact verse in the scripture and I'll answer you. Give me which Book, which verse. Understand ah? lol.

AND iw ill ask you again...
Do you obey the 613 mitzvots since you said they apply to us?
Why are you picking verses of prosperity which in its context is ISRAEL?
i asked you aboout Abraham's land promise. Does that apply to YOU?



Here it is again in post # 1731

There are more commands in Leviticus than Promises of God. I believe you should know all the OT Commands are all summed into only 2 command in the NT. I would appreciate if you know which blessing you're indicating, then I will tell you.
This verse means that God doesn't need anyone defending him. He is powerful enough to reach to his child to Teach him.
If believers start to take things into their own initiative for judgement, it becomes like Islam where Man become the Judge rather than allowing God to be the rightful one. You will be very carnal to do so.
This verse basically coincide with
And you shoot yourself in your own foot by the very verse that you give. lol

Leviticus has many BLESSSINGS AND CURSES. Go and read and contemplate whether its for you.

Roamns 14 refers to a minor matter. Thats Paul's response to it. CONTEXT.


Romans 14:4 refers to FOOD, a minor issue

QUOTE
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?
I'm not talking about kritikos, James 4:11 says about Believers as Human Being judging and slandering others. The word is there Brothers referring to Human not God.


Exactly brother, read back your answers

14But the natural man receivethnot the things of the Spirit of God: for they arefoolishness unto him: neither *can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned . 15But he that is spiritual judgethall things, yet he himself is judgedof no man.16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instructhim? But we have the mind of Christ.
Do you know what is the meaning of Things in this context?
He that is spiritual judges all things, Not judge Man, quoting 2 Tim 3: 13 calling me as Evil is slander and judgemental.

How do you judge spiritual things? by judging righteously through His word.
John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.

Thats what i am doing. Again i told you unless you arent reading too well.
Its about using 2nd part of the scriptures for correction, rebuking, etc.



Again this goes against you judging others, look at the bold.

1 Corinthians 6:5

I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide [diakrino] between his brethren?

Paul is calling that as shame.

Aiyoohhhh...are you real? Look at the CONTEXT. This seems to be your exegical weakness.......context.
Its about LEGAL suits between christians brought to courts! LOL!


1Dareany of you, having a matter against another, go to lawbefore the unjust, and not before the saints?2 Do yenot knowthat the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judgedby you, are yeunworthy to judge the smallest matters?3 Know yenot that we shall judgeangels? how much more things that pertain to this life?4If then ye havejudgments of things pertaining to this life, setthem to judge who are least esteemedin the church.5 I speak to your shame *. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judgebetween *his brethren?6But brother goeth to lawwith brother, and that before the unbelievers.7Now therefore there isutterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another.


1 Corinthians 14:29
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

Notice the word there 2 or 3 and Prophets? You are 2 or 3 prophets? So far only 1 you and you I don't think you're a prophet. Thank you.

Aiyoo another red herring. i am just showing you about discernment.....Diakrino.....
Its not about 2 or 3 prophets!



Hebrews 4:12
For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge [kritikos] the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

That is the work of the Holy Ghost to change his believer and I don't see how this is relevant in this discussion.
*
On your use of Mat 7:14..............CONTEXT! nod.gif

This is the worst Judge not verse!

1Judgenot, that ye benot judged .2For with what judgment ye judge , ye shall be judged : and with what measure ye mete , it shall be measured to you again .3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerestnot the beam that is in thine own eye?4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold , a beam is in thine own eye?5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

This is for HYPO-Krites.....you get it? This was spoken to the PHARISEEESSs

Next Judge NOT? See what Jesus COMMANDS us to do

15Beware of false prophets, which cometo you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they areravening wolves.16Ye shall knowthem by their fruits . Do men gathergrapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?17Even so every good tree bringeth forthgood fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forthevil fruit.18A good tree cannot bring forthevil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forthgood fruit.19Every tree that bringethnot forthgood fruit is hewn down , and castinto the fire.20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall knowthem.21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enterinto the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

ISnt that Jesus comamnding us to JUDGE these false prophets fruits????? biggrin.gif

prophetjul
post May 9 2012, 02:01 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ May 9 2012, 11:44 AM)
The title Son of God is rightfully His because He is God's begotten Son All the while before creation.  This is something we agree.
But I believe the title is made as a reference for understanding who He is while He was on Earth.
But I don't think it refers to Jesus having complete God Being Power while on Earth.

I'm talking about his complete divine power while on Earth not denying that He is God's begotten son or denying that He's God in reference, unless I've misunderstood you.
*
if i may, i think the Son and Father titles are used to show the perfect harmonious relationship between
the two persons. Jesus refers to this in the gospel of John.

Many times God shows Himself as a father to Israel, who is our example.
Jesus magnifies this relationship by showing it directly to mankind.

Also, Jesus Christ claimed to be the Son of God in a sense in which no other was the Son of God. In the twelfth chapter of Mark He speaks of all the prophets that had gone before Him, even the greatest of them, as servants of God, and of Himself as the only Son of God . In the third chapter of John, vs16, He speaks of Himself as the only begotten Son of God. In John 5 : 23 He claims all men should honour Him "even as they honour the Father." In John 8: 24 He says, "If ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins." During His last hours before His crucifixion the Jewish high priest said to Him, "I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God," and Jesus replied, "Thou hast said." This was the strongest form of affirmation, and He went on to emphasize what He had said by adding, "I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." Now throughout the Old Testament the only one who made the clouds His chariot was Jehovah, and Jesus here affirms in the most striking way under oath that He is a Divine person, that He is Jehovah. The teachers of the law in those days will recognise this claims of scriptures.

In John 14 : 9 He went so far as to say, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father." From these and from many other utterances of our Lord, it is perfectly plain that the Lord Jesus claimed to be the Son of God in a sense that no other was the Son of God, in the sense that in attributes and authority and worthiness of worship He was on an equality with God the Father. HE CLAIMED TO BE DIVINE. But a claim to be Divine does not prove one to be Divine. Men rightly demand that such a claim be substantiated, and I do not believe that Jesus Christ is Divine simply because He claimed to be, but because of the way in which He substantiated the claim.
So,Jesus does have the divine powers while on earth.

Plus

The many miracles that Jesus did substantiates His divinity. The miracles attributed to Jesus Christ He actually performed. But these substantiate His claim to be Divine. Not that the mere performance of miracle proves one to be Divine, but when one claims to be Divine and then performs miracles of the character that Christ performed, not merely healing the sick, but stilling the wind, calming the waves of the sea, raising the dead, casting out demons, by His mere word, these works taken in connection with His character and His teaching and His claims prove Him to be Divine.


AND see what he says to the teachers of the law

AND this is probably the most obvious and important

Authority to FOrgive sins

1 And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city. 2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. 3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. 4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? 5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? 6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.


prophetjul
post May 9 2012, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE(pehkay @ May 9 2012, 03:13 PM)
biggrin.gif If I may, just the titles itself are too awesome. The implication of the Father and Son shows that the divine life appears to be the most basic characteristic of the relationship among the three of the Godhead. What binds these three terms together is their membership in a semantic domain related to life. A life relationship binds a father and a son together, and breath (spirit) is reasonable evidence that something is alive, that some-thing possesses life. The Father is the Father because there is a Son who exists and by that existence makes Him the Father.

It does make you wonder that in the Father's heart already, the desire to produce more sons and this is why He is triune for the carrying out of His purpose.
*
Its all about a relational God.
Within the God-unity shows the perfect harmonious relationship of the three persons
revealed in scriptures.
From this eternal and divine relationship, then we can comprehend what the love described
in scriptures.

If God was ONE person, how would He know love?
How would He manifest Love, which is in effect His essence?
Therefore, because there are three persons in a perfect love relationship, God can then say
" Because I Love the world, I send my only begotten Son........"

"This is MY love, that while you were yet sinners, i send my Son to die for your sins"


prophetjul
post Jun 28 2012, 03:35 PM

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QUOTE(wuwu @ Jun 27 2012, 09:02 PM)
breaking news,Pastor Kong Hee and his gang are arrested! Anyway,I feel that this CHC is really the biggest scam in the universe.Even bigger than Lampeberger and such.
The way they get new members in is really like MLM scheme.The best part is the chuch doensnt have to pay anything to the recruiter.So the recruiter brings in another 10 of his friends.
And they always use the word of GOD to brainwash these people into parting with their money saying their tithes and offerings will be returned to them 30 fold and 100 fold.Of course when so many people are giving,you feel obligated to give too.

SO this goes on and on until their membership reaches a few thousand people.The worst part is they keep asking $ for building fund almost every year.Almost everything in CHC is about MONEY and MONEY! Everyone is trying to sell something in church. The list goes on.
And there are cell groups where they collect tithes and offerings .Come on lah,already gave at church then during cell group still wanna collect? Really like MLM scheme lah..

I dont know what else to say,CHC is the biggest scam ever and some of their LOYAL supporters are still supporting them! Ridicolous and blind supporters!
*
The poison root is the doctrine of the heretical prosperity gospel...................sad
prophetjul
post Jun 29 2012, 08:52 AM

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QUOTE(hotjake @ Jun 28 2012, 03:52 PM)
jesus did not create the church. humans did. enough said.
*
Jesus created the church. Man changed it into an institutional orgainsation.

A church is a koinoia, a community or relationships, not a structured organisation after the world
prophetjul
post Jun 29 2012, 01:51 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 29 2012, 10:37 AM)
Well this just further prove that God is still on the Throne. If Pastor Kong Hee has been misusing Church funds for his own selfish gain, He will be remove by God.

And looks like it already has.

BY no means should anyone criticize CHC. They may have been used by God to reach out to others. God may have even worked miracles, signs and wonders in that Church.

By no means just because of one man, the entire Church is equally guilty.

I'm sure there are genuine Christians there. See it's not in our place to Judge and Criticize people. Let God do his Job and we do ours.

Who are we really trying to take God's place and Judge? Eh? By doing so you put yourself under judgement from the Father.

If you're a Christian, you should submit to the teaching of this, if you are an unbeliever, I don't blame you as you acted in ignorance.
*
But we are to judge erroneous doctrines.

Erroneous doctrines like what Kong Hee is teaching. Like the Prospertity gospel.
prophetjul
post Jun 29 2012, 01:54 PM

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QUOTE(fghvbn @ Jun 29 2012, 01:53 PM)
I am losing faith in God la

I am lost
*
Why?
prophetjul
post Jun 29 2012, 02:00 PM

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QUOTE(fghvbn @ Jun 29 2012, 01:56 PM)
I am being double minded now

Sin is literally choking my life, I can't reach to God.

I don't have the strength to carry on, perhaps God is just not for me.
*
Then let God reach out to you.

You cant depend on your own strength.

You have to let the Holy Spirit empower you to be an overcomer
prophetjul
post Jun 29 2012, 02:06 PM

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QUOTE(fghvbn @ Jun 29 2012, 02:04 PM)
Yeah, but I am not sure if that is God's purpose for my life, I am concentrating more on my insurance business now.
I just don't know how to let God to reach out to me, Deep down I needed God but my body wouldn't obey God's command.
*
1st thing is to PRAY.

Then let Him know your predicatment. If you are serious about obeying Him, He will help you.
prophetjul
post Jun 29 2012, 02:09 PM

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QUOTE(nickisthemost @ Jun 29 2012, 02:05 PM)
how do you know it is easier ? which method are you comparing with ?
*
If humans find it difficult to understand humans, it will be much more difficult for them to hear God directly.
So He used humans to communicate His messages.
prophetjul
post Jun 29 2012, 02:17 PM

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QUOTE(nickisthemost @ Jun 29 2012, 02:10 PM)
claims

1) God already have a plan

2) PRAY so that God will change his plan

i wonder which is true
*
Who said about praying so that God will change His plan?
prophetjul
post Jun 29 2012, 02:18 PM

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QUOTE(nickisthemost @ Jun 29 2012, 02:15 PM)

remember adam and eve ? moses, noah and many prophets before and after them, they have a direct contact with God

what wrong with this method now ?
*
Whats wrong?
prophetjul
post Jun 29 2012, 02:20 PM

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QUOTE
what is wrong with direct contact, save so much trouble


He had direct contact. Jesus came down...........
prophetjul
post Jun 30 2012, 12:10 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 29 2012, 05:27 PM)
prophetjul,

if you do not believe that God delights in prospering you, then don't believe it but do not judge because Jesus sternly warn all of us myself included the moment we start to be judgemental then we take God's pardoning of our sin for granted. If God forgave sinners their sin, who are we to take the place of God to judge others when we are sinner once ourselves who are already forgiven?

That is why God gave us the parable of the two debtors?

Remember the parable between the debtors who couldn't pay? In the same manner, God will threat us the same.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This parable is not talking about money but Christian with an unmerciful heart.

Btw Prosperity is not the gospel neither it's a doctrine. The Gospel is about Peace, Grace and Salvation through Jesus Christ.
Prosperity is one of the many blessings of God coming from the Gospel and it is scripturally ordained by God.
You may insist everything in the Bible talks about is only spiritual. But I can show you many verse is in support of God prospering all his children and if you know the blessing of Abraham, the very first blessing he receive from God is Material Possession and the Bible mention He is very Rich in Silver, Flock, Servants and Gold twice from Pharoah and King Abimelech. There is no way you can spiritualize that. If God is against prosperity, All of his Patriarch will be poor. But the Bible says they are all blessed in Material Possession.

Frankly I do not find anything wrong when Pastor preach sermons on prosperity. You are going to need money to help others and not to take in everything for yourself. I believe all of us only need to understand not to set our mind or heart to pursue prosperity.

Only to seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness all these things will be added unto you.
That's because you're still trying to earn your right to come to God by your own works or effort. I see from time to time you're still hanging on to the old testament way of approaching God.


Unkown

You have asked ALL christians NOT to discern!


How else are we to judge doctrines?

And yet Jesus commands it!


QUOTE
Mat 7
15 `But, take heed of the false prophets, who come unto you in sheep's clothing, and inwardly are ravening wolves. 16 From their fruits ye shall know them; do [men] gather from thorns grapes? or from thistles figs? 17 so every good tree doth yield good fruits, but the bad tree doth yield evil fruits. 18 A good tree is not able to yield evil fruits, nor a bad tree to yield good fruits. 19 Every tree not yielding good fruit is cut down and is cast to fire: 20 therefore from their fruits ye shall know them


Is the above statement from Jesus about discerning? And Paul

QUOTE
2 Cor 11
11Wherefore? because I loveyou not? God knoweth . 12But what I do , that I will do , that I may cut offoccasion from them which desireoccasion; that wherein they glory , they may be foundeven as we.13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselvesinto the apostles of Christ.14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformedinto an angel of light.15Therefore it is no great thing ifhis ministers also be transformedas the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall beaccording to their works.16 I sayagain, Letno man thinkme a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receiveme, that I may boast myselfa little.17 That which I speak , I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly , in this confidence of boasting.18 Seeing that many gloryafter the flesh, I will gloryalso.19For ye sufferfools gladly, seeing ye yourselves arewise.



How else are we to discern whether they be of the devil or Jesus?

Of judging and discerning......

http://www.pfo.org/notjudge.htm

Methink you are falling over your statements

QUOTE
Btw Prosperity is not the gospel neither it's a doctrine. The Gospel is about Peace, Grace and Salvation through Jesus Christ.



QUOTE
Prosperity is one of the many blessings of God coming from the Gospel


Arent Peace, Grace and Salvation blessings?

The prosperity gospel is a erroneous doctrine.

QUOTE
Doctrine (from Latin: doctrina) is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system.


Its erroneous because it assumes God wants you to be abundant in material as described by the world as
a consequence of the gospel after the cross.
It comes through an erroneous understanding of the scriptures and therefore is a erroneous Doctrine




QUOTE
Through this study of the theology and the biblical interpretation of the prosperity gospel, one may discern five clear reasons why this movement’s teachings concerning wealth are incorrect:

1. The prosperity gospel is built upon a faulty understanding of the Abrahamic covenant.

2. The prosperity gospel is built upon a faulty understanding of the Atonement.

3. The prosperity gospel is based upon a faulty understanding of the biblical tachings on giving.

4. The prosperity gospel is based upon a faulty understanding of the biblical teachings on faith.

5. The prosperity gospel, in general, has been constructed upon faulty biblical interpretation.

Aside from these five specific theological and biblical arguments against the prosperity gospel, and without even considering the practical implications of this movement,41 there is perhaps one general, summary reason why the prosperity gospel is a wayward gospel: its faulty view of the relationship between God and man. Simply put, if the prosperity gospel is correct, grace becomes obsolete, God becomes irrelevant, and man is the measure of all things. Whether it is the Abrahamic covenant, the Atonement, giving, faith, or the biblical interpretation of any given verse, the prosperity teacher seeks to turn the relationship between God and man into a financial quid pro quo transaction. As scholar James R. Goff noted, God is “reduced to a kind of ‘cosmic bellhop’ attending to the needs and desires of his creation.”42 This is a wholly inadequate and unbiblical view of the relationship between God and man and the stewardship of wealth.


More here http://bible.org/article/bankruptcy-prospe...ological-ethics

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Jun 30 2012, 12:19 PM
prophetjul
post Jul 2 2012, 09:18 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 1 2012, 02:59 AM)
Sigh prophetjul,

Actually, It is not me who ask this but Jesus. Don't believe? Read...Luke 6:37. Do you practise this at all as a believer of Christ?
The problem with judging doctrines is that you can't help but to judge the people behind it as well. That goes against what Jesus says in Luke 6:37
And when you judge the people behind the doctrine you may hurt the person. And That goes against the principal of Luke 6:35.

And Matthew 7:15 does not give you the license to judge because it says Take Heed....It didn't say to Judge.

To take heed means, to be careful. Being Careful is of introspective nature not outrospective affecting other people.

Judgement and Discernment are 2 different things. It's not the same.

Discerning is basically the same meaning "to understand".

And even if you are to discern any matter, discern with love, not with judgemental attitude, Jesus never asked any of his disciple to be like this. People who are always critical and Judgemental will inevitably hurt others. That is not What Jesus wants in his disciples because it pushes people away. If we push people away from God according to how we threat people, then we do not love and if we do not love, the love of the Father is not in us.
I already told you prophetjul, Prosperity is not a Gospel. It is one of the blessing from God and yes it is a consequence of the gospel after the cross.
But it's not the gospel. Learn to divide the meaning.



Sigh unknown

Context.....Context......You cannot apply the word judge not to blanket that including discerning. Eeven the
greek words are different!

Both the passages in mat7 and Luke 6 applies to judging wrongly. NOt a blanket Do Not Judge.
The context: Hypocrites judging.

QUOTE
Luke6:
39And he spake a parable unto them *, Can the blind lead the blind? shall theynot both fallinto the ditch?40The disciple isnot above his master: but every one that is perfect shall beas his master.41And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivestnot the beam that is in thine own eye?42Either how canst thousay to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thouthyself beholdestnot the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast outfirst the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.


QUOTE
Mat7:1Judgenot, that ye benot judged .2For with what judgment ye judge , ye shall be judged : and with what measure ye mete , it shall be measured to you again .3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerestnot the beam that is in thine own eye?4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold , a beam is in thine own eye?5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


There is a right way of judging:

QUOTE
John7
22Moses therefore *gave unto you circumcision; * (not because it isof Moses, but of the fathers;) and yeon the sabbath day circumcise a man.23If a man on the sabbath day receivecircumcision, that the law of Moses shouldnot be broken ; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?24Judgenot according to the appearance, but judgerighteous judgment



Mat7 :15 tells you not to judge? Read on...Jesus tells you to discern!
Discern to understand and take a stand


QUOTE
15Beware *of false prophets, which cometo you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they areravening wolves.16Ye shall knowthem by their fruits *. Do men gathergrapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?17Even so every good tree bringeth forthgood fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forthevil fruit.18A good tree cannot * bring forthevil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forthgood fruit.19Every tree that bringethnot forthgood fruit is hewn down , and castinto the fire.20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall knowthem.



Does that passage tell you to discern? How does one tell that the false prophets come in sheep's clothing, and having bad fruits
if one does not apply discernment? How can one " ye shall knowthem" without discernment?

There are many words applying to judging and discerning in greek. Sometimes in english, it does not prsent the whole context
of judging.

QUOTE
ANAKRINO -- TO DISCERN 
    The Greek word for "judge" is krino. 
    If you put the prefix "ana" in front of the word "krino," you get a variation on the idea of judging, which is "to discern." 
    But he who is spiritual judges [anakrino] all things, yet he himself is judged [anakrino] by no man (1 Corinthians 2:15). 
    God, in His Word, commands us to anakrino. It is not a right; it is not a privilege; it is not something that is advisable. We are commanded to do it. And if you do not discern, you lack wisdom. 
    There is a reason why false teachers will not stand up publicly and debate someone like Hank Hangraaff or Dave Hunt. 
    People who will stand up and say, "That is not Scriptural." "That is not right." "I discern that this is not of God," are practicing wisdom. 
    The reason why Michael Brown backed out of his debate with me over Pensacola, and why Jim McConnell backed out of his debate with me over British Israelism is that they lack wisdom. 
    Those who practice wisdom, cannot themselves be judged by anyone. Because they anakrino, they cannot be 
anakrino-ed. That is why those others are afraid of them.

DIAKRINO -- TO DECIDE 
    I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide [diakrino] between his brethren? (1 Corinthians 6:5).
    Another prefix which changes the meaning of krino is "dia." Diakrino means to "render a decision." 
    Is something right or wrong? Is someone's behavior right or wrong morally? Is it Scriptural or unscriptural? Is it of God, or is it of the flesh, or of the devil? 
    The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul commands that we are to diakrino. 
    We are not permitted to diakrino. We are not advised to diakrino. We are not privileged to diakrino. We are commanded to diakrino. It is not that judging is acceptable. Rather, to fail to judge is unacceptable.



KRISIS -- HEAVEN OR HELL 
    There is a kind of judging that we are not called to do. The Greek word is krisis. 
    For not even the father judges anyone, but He has given all judgement [krisis] to the Son (John 5:22). 
    The ultimate determination of heaven and hell belongs to the Lord alone. We never krisis. We are forbidden to krisis.

KRITES -- THE JUDGE OF ALL 
    But you have come… to the general assembly and church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge [ krites ] of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect (Hebrews 12:23).
    God is the judge of all. Yes, there are people who are called to judge, but God is the ultimate Judge of us all.

HUPO-KRITES -- PHARISEES 
    If we are going to stand up and confront other people in the church about something being wrong, we had better make sure we are not guilty of the same thing, because that is another kind of judging we are forbidden to do. 
    Here the prefix hupo is added to krites, giving us the English word "hypocrites." 
    This is what Jesus meant when he said, Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 
    And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 
    Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," and behold, the log is in your own eye? 
    You hypocrite [hupokrites],  first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye (Matthew 7:1-5). 
    We do not krites and we especially do not hupo-krites.

KRITIKOS -- TO DISCERN 
    For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge [kritikos] the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12). 
    Cells called erythrocytes are stored in the red marrow of big bones, like the femur and the tibia. On the outside there is the bone and on the inside there is the marrow. But in between there is an area where, even with a microscope, it is very difficult to tell where the bone ends and where the marrow begins. 
    The Bible says that the relationship between soul and spirit is like that. Take prophecy: Was that from someone's imagination, or was it God's Spirit speaking through their spirit? It is very difficult to tell the difference. 
    Man is a three-dimensional being. You can separate a body from a soul; but you cannot easily tell where the soul ends and the spirit begins.
    When people say, "The Lord showed me this" and "God told me that," it is difficult to know if it is someone's imagination or God's Spirit speaking to their spirit. The mind is a good servant, but a dangerous master. Many people are caught up with things not overtly demonic, but they are prophesying from the futility of their own mind. 
    We are called to kritikos -- to discern between the soulish and the spiritual. The Word of God enables us to separate the bone from the marrow, the spiritual from the purely soulish.

SUMMARY 
    Judge not? What does the Bible say?

1. We never judge from our opinions.

2. We are commanded to anakrino -- we always seek to discern: "Is this of God, or is it of the flesh, or of the devil?"

3. We are commanded to diakrino -- to render a decision as to whether something is morally right or wrong.

4. We do not krisis -- the Lord alone decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

5. We are sometimes appointed to krites -- but we are to remember that the Lord is the Judge of all, and we are to judge righteously.

6. We never, ever, hupo-krites -- before we take a speck out of our brother's eye, we make sure we do not have the same speck in our own eye.

7. We always kritikos -- we draw on the Word of God to discern between the things of the soul and the things of the spirit.


http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/judgenot.html


QUOTE
Abraham is not the only patriarch God gave Material abundance, if you know your bible well enough, you will also note, David, Solomon, Moses, many others are greatly enriched by God. That is enough prove that God is not against prospering his people.

Psalm 35:27 says God delights in prospering his children. Take note the meaning of prospering here in the Greek lexicon encompasses everything including material wealth. This is something you will never be able to spiritualize, also
The reason why I find there's nothing wrong with God giving prosperity to his people is because we need money to help others. If God is against prosperity, He would never bless any of his patriarch with prosperity. But the fact He did, proves you wrong.

Many Christians who are against prosperity lack this understanding.

They think those who preach prosperity also enforce that Christian should set their mind on it. I've never found any such teaching from established Pastors who knows the Truth better , And I also did underline this statement which is synonym with what the Bible teaches . Did you miss it?

Most of the bible based prosperity sermons I've heard teaches that God wants to prosper us and we are to accept what he gives because He is a good God who love to give us all good things. They also correctly preach never to seek after it and ignore God, no where did they ever teach otherwise. 


Its so easy to pinch David's psalm and try to apply it to christians in a blanket, does it not?
God is propsering David, not his children here.
In contrast to your alluding that judging is not loving, would you apply David's statement from Psalms 35 here?

35:8 Let destruction take them by surprise!
Let the net they hid catch them!
Let them fall into destruction!

And indeed David acknowledges ther are POOR people in the next breath who are downtrodden!

35:10 All my bones shall say , LORD, who is like unto thee, which deliverest the poor from him that is too strong for him, yea, the poor and the needy from him that spoileth him?


QUOTE
Those who are against prosperity teaching always use this excuse that prosperity teaching is wrong because it teaches the believer to pursue prosperity. which is exactly the typical straw man fallacy they use which is evident in http://bible.org/article/bankruptcy-prospe...ological-ethics 

And they always use this fallacy in Luke 16:13 talking about serving 2 masters concluding therefore prosperity is evil. That is shallow understanding of the context because they don't understanding the meaning. They're confuse because they think if God give prosperity to this people He wants his people to love money more than Him. If that is the case then Christians who have abundance of Material Possession are all destined for hell.
If that is the case, Churches with lots of money are all destined for hell.

and Perhaps another reason why there are some against prosperity teaching is because they misunderstood the tenacity and the passion of the Preacher. They see the loudness of the voice focusing on prosperity and the constant repeat on the subject prosperity indicating they're trying to lead people away from God. When they see this, they think it's blasphemy and They stop the channel or switch to see something else. They have never see the whole complete sermon. They see it that way but what they failed to realize the need for that because a lot of Christian do not believe God in prospering them.


There is no fallacy that so many pop prosperity teachers have fallen to the sin of mammon, is there?
Is it a strawman that so many of these teachers have succum to the temptation of mmamon when ther focus
is on the material blessings shaped by the god of this world?

Is it a fallacy that these people have made merchandise of their sheep?
Is a fallacy that Kong hee is in trouble? That he can live in aSGD9.5m condo while he teaches his sheep to
downgrade and give their sales proceeds to his church coffers/
Is it a fallacy that Paul Yongghi is CHo under investigation for embezzlement of funds?
Do you need a historics for the propserity teachers scandals?

QUOTE
You are the first Christian I've ever met to ever to advocate God wants his people to be in poverty And hinted to be penniless makes you less in danger of being thrown in hell and it is the Devil who prosper you not God. LOL.

Where, show me where did i ever advocated that God wants his people to be in poverty? nod.gif biggrin.gif


QUOTE
prophetjul, Churches who goes out on international mission to save the world need tons of money in millions to feed the poor. If God doesn't prosper them, they can only do so much. And if you're going to help others on personal level you should believe God for prosperity. You'll able to help your surrounding for example your retired parents or parents in law or some relatives who are in need. You cannot help others when you have nothing much for yourself. Nothing cannot give something. You cannot feed hungry people with just your consoling words when you yourself need money to feed yourself.

That is the fallacy and strawman that pros teachers use.
Many churches have unsaved outside their dooor way, their Jerusalem; yet they go out of their way
to try to create international ministries. Why? Its more glorious.....and prosperous that way.
The fallacy of it all is that these pros teachers are teaching this AND enriching their pockets at the same time.
This is the lie that they peaching....making merchandise of the UNDISCERNING.....

QUOTE
2 Pet 2

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring indamnable heresies, even denying the Lord that boughtthem, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2And many shall followtheir pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of . 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingerethnot, and their damnation slumberethnot.


COVETOUSness...thats what they exhibit. Ask Joyce Meyer...she has whole estate of mansions for her whole family!
Looks like they cant wait for the Lord Jesus' mansions!
Discern or you will be in trouble..........

QUOTE
I'm posting based on experience as a Parent with Children. I've gone past the years as young Christian on fire for God in my younger days.
Even though God has bless me with Financial Providence, that has never pull me away from God but the opposite. I now rely 100% on Him for Providence. My Trust and confidence in (Flesh) Men has eroded. I give God the praise for teaching me this in His grace. Now I seek only God, not his blessings. God is Faithful to answer most of my prayers and I know He is with me.

I know the danger and pitfalls of the Christian Life. I believe you're someone still young, perhaps still in your 20's or in early 30's.
Young people are usually easily angered with emotions when it comes to Faith. I understand your zeal for God but zeal without knowledge is foolish as the Bible says.
I think we need to stop on this debate about prosperity because clearly you're advocating something you lack understanding. If you do not believe it's biblical, then don't believe. This blessing is not for you but for people who believe
.

From my postings, you will probably DISCERN that i am similar age to you......... smile.gif
If i was in my 20s, i might be hoodwinked by teachers like Konghee.....and all the rest of the Prosperity teachers because

No judging of doctrines? Read again what Paul says

QUOTE
2 Tim 4
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shalljudge the quickand the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove , rebuke , exhortwith all longsuffering and doctrine.3For the time will comewhen they willnot enduresounddoctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itchingears;4And they shall turn away * their ears from the truth, and shall be turnedunto fables.

unknown, do you discern?


prophetjul
post Jul 2 2012, 09:51 AM

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How Pastors Get Rich

an article by Cultwatch Director Mark Vrankovich


This article exposes the secret methods certain pastors use to get rich off God's people. Have you ever wondered how some pastors start a church and then become wealthy living in flash houses and driving luxury cars? Well this article exposes how they do it, extracting money from their congregations to fund their lifestyles. Here are the secrets they definitely do not want you to know.


Important Note: As you read please remember that very few pastors use the techniques you are about to discover. The great majority of Christian pastors do not earn much money even though they work hard at their jobs. Most Christian pastors would find these techniques repugnant. Please do not make the mistake of tarring the many good pastors with the brush reserved for the spiritually corrupt few.


Listen to Radio Interview on How Pastors Get Rich


Listen to the author being interviewed about this article on the Janet Mefferd Radio Show:


Download MP3 (for some users, right click and 'Save File' or 'Save Link' to download the MP3 of the show)


Table of Contents

Introduction

The Multilevel Marketing Pattern

Books

DVDs

Hyped Conferences

The Christian Speaking Circuit

Pastor Owned Businesses that Feed Off the Flock

The Honor the Pastor Scam

High Pressure Offerings

Cathedral Building Wars

Siphoning Cash into Property

Excessive Wages

Perks

Nepotism

Their Fabricated Tithing Doctrine

The Carrot and the Stick

Summary


Why you should read this Article


You will discover the secret techniques that certain pastors use to transfer money out of your pocket and into theirs.


You will understand the overall pattern behind their tricks.


You will learn enough to protect your friends and family.


You could gain thousands of dollars (or pounds or euros), literally. Reading this article can set you free. Free to keep more of the money that you have worked hard for. Money you can take and invest in genuine works of God, or in toys for your kids, or perhaps something shiny for your spouse.


Finally, reading this article can help you please God more, since you will no longer be investing in ungodly works.



Introduction

Like Judas reaching into the money bag, the sad reality is that a small minority of Christian pastors steal from God's people. As Christians we hate to face this truth, but I believe we must, because it is our duty to protect our less aware brothers and sisters - keeping them from these thieves.

Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. - 2 Corinthians 2:17a

Here exposed are the secret techniques used to fleece money from God's people. Don't be naive thinking that these schemes have spread throughout the world by accident. These techniques are talked about and shared behind closed doors by the clique of pastors who employ them.

It's big business. Some of them laugh at us like con-men laughing at their marks. Seriously, if you don't believe that there are men like that, then watch the 1972 documentary Marjoe. You'll soon realize that these wolfs in sheep's clothing have been a blight on Christianity throughout its history.

I will start by outlining the primary pattern that underpins these modern schemes. Then I will drill down, listing each technique one by one, exposing how they work. Finally, at the end, I will outline the biggest monetary scam of all.

First let's discover the primary pattern behind their methods...


The Multilevel Marketing Pattern

When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" - John 2:13-16

We've all been approached at some time by a friend caught up in the hope of multilevel marketing. The business they are pushing is simple, sell toothpaste or web sites or whatever, and then recruit people under you doing the same, taking a cut from their sales. Soon you will be so rich that you can buy a flash European car and give stacks of money to Godly causes.

That is the dream. The proof the dream works is embodied in the wealth of the dream's leaders. Do you see how rich our leaders are? They made all their money by following the dream, proving that you can too. Except, that it's a lie.

Coming up is the key to the pattern, are you ready? These leaders did not become wealthy by following the dream, instead they became wealthy by building up a group of people who believe passionately in the dream, and then selling dream-promoting wares to this captive audience.

I will say it again, because you need to understand this pattern. They did not become rich by selling toothpaste; they became rich by hyping dream-promoting books, tapes, DVDs, and conferences to their own private market of dream believers.

This same pattern is practiced by some Christian leaders and their churches. The dream is the prosperity gospel. Their captive market is their congregation. The products are, well you guessed it: books, tapes, DVDs, and conferences, and t-shirts, and most ominously spiritual rewards and the prevention of spiritual punishments.

These leaders use their faked "success" to promote a distorted gospel which basically says: "tow the line obeying the leaders buying whatever we tell you to buy, and donate money whenever we tell you to donate, and then God will pour riches into your life." They tell us that they became successful by following this dream, but in reality they became rich by sucking money out of those caught up in the buzzing environment where this distorted gospel seems real.

Let's drill in and discuss some of the products and techniques they use to line their pockets with money that ought to have stayed with God's people or gone to legitimate good works. You are about to discover how these spiritual vampires feed...

Tip: A clue that you are caught up in one of these churches is if you hear things like, "This is your spiritual home, you can't go to another church. You must be loyal." They are very jealous about protecting their market, and do not want to lose one of their paying customers to another church. Some even try to prevent their patrons leaving by making them sign contracts or "covenants", like a mobile phone company locking you into a two year term. But the Bible does not teach that Christians are bound to their local church organization, this idea is foreign to Scripture.

Books

The first product is the leader's book (often ghostwritten and fraudulently claimed to be authored by the leader). Let's be honest, many of these books are below par. Like bad business books they have one good idea, if that, and then are padded with motivational sayings and anecdotal stories of how the leader obeyed the dream and so God hosed him down with wealth. The theological content is basically non-existent. These books would tank on Amazon or in a real bookstore, but hyped to their captive market they sell like hot cakes.

Your Counter Strategy: Buy the book if it's got good reviews or if your friends have read it and liked it. In other words treat it like you would any other book. Avoid buying it if the pastor or speaker has hyped it during his talk and especially if there is a lot of peer pressure from the group to buy. Be aware that conferences and seminars are designed to emotionally hype these products. If you've ever been to a high pressure time-share sales session, then you will know what it's like. If you're feeling the hype, then cool off for a few days, buying the book later if you still want to.

DVDs

Next comes the ever popular DVD. Most of which are videos of the leader preaching in his church on a certain topic. Let me ask you a question, is it ethical for a leader who has been paid by his church to prepare and deliver a sermon, to then take that performance and sell it back to his own church members for a healthy profit? I'm not talking here about paying for reproduction costs or the money going into church funds. I'm talking about DVDs being sold at the same cost as a movie DVD and the profit going into the leader's own pocket.

And like the books most of these DVD's are awful, not worth the money paid. Minimal content with gallons of fluff. Some are so bad that my friends and I have been in hysterics, like the preacher whose proofs for his latest invented doctrine is to slap the bible he's carrying and say, "It's bible, it's bible!".

But, these DVDs are hyped and hyped, and the captive audience buy stacks of them. In the worst money hungry churches you're expected to buy them, and it is noticed if you don't.

Your Counter Strategy: The same as for a hyped book. Is it good? Do you still want the DVD after the hype has dissipated? Then buy it, otherwise save your money.


Hyped Conferences

The hype for these conferences start months before hand. Other church members look at you strangely if you are thinking about not going. What, you can't afford the huge entry fee? What's wrong with you, don't you love God? Don't you want to be blessed? Don't you want to be successful and wealthy? Don't you want to be part of us? Because you won't be, unless you go to THE CONFERENCE!
Each speaker is completely amazing. The next best thing to the second coming.

He's built a church up from nothing to one with thousands of people. She's the most Godly woman in the universe who is the best wife ever with the best kids and the best lifestyle, and she's the pastor's wife too. He's from overseas. She's a corporate CEO. Wow. It's going to be awesome. It's going to be triple awesome! It's going to be mega massive triply awesomely awesome!

The spiritual reward for going is implied to be life changing. The conference fee is nothing, compared to the fire-fighting-bomber worth of blessings and wealth God will dump on your head from upon high.

And Jesus had conferences too, don't forget, like the Sermon on the Mount, where He charged, oh, he didn't charge anything for that spiritual teaching. In fact it was free wasn't it? Hmmm. Well, often the first-movers can't figure out how to monetize their success, we can't blame Jesus for that, can we? Gosh, if only He had some books to sell at the back...

Understand, I'm not against conferences. I'm against overly expensive hyped conferences that deliver hardly any lasting value to their attendees; Conferences that are linked to your standing in your church, and supposedly what God thinks of your commitment to Him.

And why are they so expensive? Where does all that money go? Well, in the next section you're going to find out...

Your Counter Strategy: Hire a hotel room, and sit there reading your Bible with a few Christian friends - trust me, spiritually you'll get more out of it and it'll cost less. Realize that you don't need the sugar high of a conference to get closer to God. Deprogram yourself from the idea that conferences are like a spiritual hot-point you just have to be at. See the hype for what it is. Be led by the Spirit to conferences, not pulled by the fear of losing your church friends and God's blessing.

More here....

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Summary

I believe many church goers would be shocked if they could comprehend the real attitude their pastor has towards them. From my experience with both the cults and these money focused churches, it is my impression that instead of being looked upon with love, these pastors see their congregation as farm animals to be milked.

It is my prayer that this article will set you free from this kind of spiritual bondage. I hope now you will be able to spot this counterfeit Christian life and be able to transition into a closer walk with Jesus; a walk built on love, trust and grace, not fear.

To summarize what we have learnt about the methods money hungry pastors use to feed off their flock: We discovered the multilevel marketing pattern that these often ex-salesmen (not theologians) model their churches. We examined some of the products they sell into their captive market like books and DVDs. We unhyped the hyped conferences, and exposed the christian speaking circuit. Next we talked about how spiritually dishonest pastors set up their own businesses that their followers are expected to patronize. After that came the scam of "honoring the pastor" with gifts of luxury items. We delved into the high pressure offering mini-sermons that are designed to guilt people into giving. We examined how most of the money gained is used to build the pastor's modern day cathedrals, projects that their fragile egos demand. We exposed the scam of siphoning the church's cash into properties and assets owned by the pastor. We covered the obvious points of excessive wages and extravagant perks, and that was followed by the not so obvious problem of nepotism. Their big daddy came second to last - their fabricated tithing doctrine was exposed for what it is, a fraud. Finally we discussed the spiritual carrot and stick of the false authority that the pastors claim.

There are other methods these guys use to extract money from churches. Revisit this article regularly to discover these methods in future updates.

Realize that a number of churches follow the patterns that this article exposes. However there are many good churches who do not practice these methods. If you have been hurt by these practices then feel free to give up on these twisted money-focused environments, but please do not give up on Jesus.

Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God. - 2 Corinthians 2:17. Therefore, can we conclude that men who peddle the word of God for profit are not sent from God?

Feel free to think this one through for yourself.

http://www.cultwatch.com/HowPastorsGetRich.html
prophetjul
post Oct 15 2012, 11:18 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Oct 15 2012, 11:09 AM)
The answer is yes but more importantly my question to you is (which you need to think and answer)

Why is the 10 commandment unable to save you from your sins?
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Mat 7:21
prophetjul
post Oct 15 2012, 11:21 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Oct 15 2012, 11:20 AM)
So what is the Will of the Father who is in Heaven according to the New Testament?
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You tell me.......
prophetjul
post Oct 15 2012, 11:22 AM

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Why only New testament? OT not Father's will?

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