teongpeng,

1) I understand non-attachment. Just too hard to explain...

You may be content now, but if you have future goals to achieve then you are no longer content. Can you understand this?

2) So what?? That is the future's problem!! Zen means LIVE NOW. Aka, at the MOMENT. Always at the moment. Be the best. Do the best that you could NOW. Let's tomorrow take care of the tomorrow's problem.

3) You do not live at tomorrow. You LIVE NOW. And, NOW is all you have...

Dreamer

I'm content now because of what I have, what I achieved, and what I will or will not achieve. Nothing's wrong with that. =) You can be content now and still have goals.

TS, you might want to bring this discussion back to its focus... our fellow forumers here start to argue un-resolveable subjective issue here...

This post has been edited by LuciferAmadeus: Feb 18 2011, 10:13 AM

None of that are virtues.

1. Truth is not virtue, being honest is.
2. wholeness is not virtue, wholesome action is.
3. perfection is not virtue, striving to be better is.
4. self-sufficiency is not a virtue, making the effort to be independant is.
5. passion is not a virtue, following your passion is (or could be?)
6. simplicity is not virtue - being simple is.

3. and 4. ofcourse can be summarised as virtue of hardwork and honet effort.

This post has been edited by teongpeng: Feb 18 2011, 10:32 AM

Yes, i'm mistaken with my simplistic usage of term...

semantics "

This post has been edited by LuciferAmadeus: Feb 18 2011, 10:36 AM

yup i agree its just semantics. I didnt say your content/message is wrong. Just that its important that we clarify certain usage of words so that if we were to have future discussions, we would be talking on the same page.

Do you think it should be striving for perfection? (not necessarily to be perfect, just striving to make our perception and understanding perfect)

Because i think 'better' brings the relative connotation, it will be endless and may cause anxiety. Assuming that reality is finite (and i think that is a valid assumption based on our limited perception, hence finite reality), perfection is absolute within our senses hence hypothetically achievable.

This post has been edited by LuciferAmadeus: Feb 18 2011, 10:51 AM

Stirving for perfection or striving to be better are merely differenct standard in the goal we set for ourselves. The virtue here is hardwork and making an effort, taking initiative etc. Other virtues involved are honesty, courage, faith and steadfast, and to a lesser degree, respect. All these virtues have to be combined and cultivated by the person seeking to better themselves, so as not to give up halfway or being misled into wrong teachings.

Virtues when cultivated, grows. And like plants being watered, it will start to bear fruits (the result of the virtue). So yes, how we cultivate the plant, starting from the seed, determines what quality of fruits we will get.

On your assertion that striving for perfection is better than merely striving to be better,i can see where you are coming from. But like i said this is just the difference in the standard we set for ourselves. In my opinion, striving for perfection, although noble in intent, is very hard to achieve and sometimes we may be dejected by the constant failure to reach a goal too distanct in the future. On the other hand, just wanting to be better than we were before, allows us to achieve successful result with each attempt. Our success can be measured and confirmed sooner. Constant success reinforces our believes and encourages us on our path. Such constant positive reinforcements is also beneficial to our self esteem and this indirectly effects our confidence in other aspects of our lives.

Like right now, i've just taken up running/jogging as a sport. To be perfect in running would mean to be able to win a marathon. But my approach isnt to win any marathon although one day i might. Now i'm just focused on being a better runner month by month. I try not to focus on where i will end up as a runner, instead i just allow my hardwork to bear its own result.

In other words, im more interested to DISCOVER the result, rather than moving towards a certain one. This way, i can never fail.

But alas this is just a matter of different perceptions and approach. We are all different. Do what feels right to you.

This post has been edited by teongpeng: Feb 18 2011, 11:57 AM

Hmmm... there must be a reason why Maslow put perfection rather than betterment as an element of virtue.

Maybe i misinterpreted perfection here. Perhaps perfection here means 'suitability'. It means that it is grounded on reality and can be reasonably accepted by other people.

Betterment is not Maslowian virtue, because it implies (implies only, doesn't really mean "it means") that we cannot accept ourselves, hence be anxious to strive for better while not knowing where it will end.

what is perfection? do you know where it will end?

Peeps,

Looks like this thread has started to gain a lot of wisdom replies, especially from an esteemed forum-er like dreamer101 and some. It is good that he has shared with us, simplistically enough to understand that passion is is the virtue needed to for someone to command a groundbreaking thoughts, while:

-the adequacy passion is a separate issue, hence it is not related to this debate.

- taking the first step is paramount, let other things handle themselves on the recourse of karma, which is 'what goes around comes around', when an action that was done will result in a reaction that correspond to the action or deed that was involved. Wikipedia: Karma.

Also dreamer101 has taken to explain to us the intricacy of Zen, which I would not dwell much into since this thread is originally opened to discuss how to achieve a groundbreaking results while being critical, pragmatic (ability to to act or practice while excluding artistic and intellectual matters, and its antonym is idealistic) and being realistic.

He has been [b]specific here:


While being pragmatic:


My notes: First hand observation is not conclusive without a good proven hypothesis done in controlled environment. Could you enlighten us more with scholarly citations? And I'm only 24 this year. Experiences? Not as deep as yours of course, but that does not matter here because that IS a well said statement, indeed.

And with both of that statement, he has indeed being very real and honest.

**************************************

Therefore, ladies and gentlemen fellow forummers, my conclusion on how to achieve something unique, would be, to borrow from dreamer's replies, be passionate, because:
- Without passion, which happened to be a virtue and when it is a virtue a discussion will somehow bound to become rather philosophical and idealistic due to interference of religious beliefs and dogmas.

-While to become a pragmatist in achieving a goal, one should NOT listen or follow other people's thinking. What he, dreamer has trying to make sense here would be to take the first step and do an act wholeheartedly. Well said.

- Also, to be realistic, when you are having or showing a sensible and practical idea of what can be achieved or expected askoxford.com: Realistic: to be sensible is as simple as it sounds like, do something that make sense and to be practical, that potential act must have a reasonable proportion of success while performing under standard conditions, in which everyone has their OWN standard.

Henceforth the question is considered answer and justified. Be passionate, other things are secondary.

Thanks for all contributions and replies, scholarly or otherwise. Still, I am not satisfied with this unless it can be justified by a learned expert, with proper citations because afterall, this is PhDSchool and as a scientist, a real one or aspired to be, acts are proven in experiment. That is because, wisdom is an ability of deep understanding to act optimally, hence with minimum amount of time and energy. Cited from Wikipedia: Wisdom. And wisdom is not experimentally justified virtue. [debate this]

Hence, please include your citation in following replies, else this discussion would turn to be another catch-22 discussion. =)

However, I believed that dreamer has answered all the queries whilst being crictical, pragmatic, and realistic, minus citations. Therefore, this thread is slated for closure.

Regards,
721

This post has been edited by SevenTwentyOne: Feb 20 2011, 10:48 PM

To me, success doesn't only mean wealth. It includes my own-being, and how much i manage to contribute to the society.

Given that the latter definition of perfection (suitability), it would be enough if most of our actions are realistic and does not interfere with other reasonable people. Hence, we can stop there once we achieved the two conditions.

Maslowian self-actualizers are realistic in action, but idealistic in aspiration, and they know how to separate reality and the ideal. Striving for the better is realistic, but so does striving for perfection (as in 'suitability'). The difference is that perfection is definite, while better will always be relative.

The idea of maslow's hierarchy of need is of 'liberation', hence it requires 'effortlessness' (that's why i cringe every time i use the word 'striving' when i talk about self-actualization). 'Striving for better' will always be a continuous effort, while 'Striving (Going might be a more suitable word?) for perfection' once achieved will always be a natural definiteness.

This post has been edited by LuciferAmadeus: Feb 21 2011, 12:14 PM