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Humanities Passion vs. needs, Psychology

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LuciferAmadeus
post Feb 16 2011, 12:52 PM

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I haven't watch The Social Network.

Hmmm... It can be done.. Unfortunately, on our way to achieving self-actualization through material wealth, we often be easily sidetracked. It depends where your virtue are.

The virtue of self-actualization is 'truth', while the virtue of getting rich is 'win' where most of our d-needs are based upon (most of the time).

Truth is where you understand that there are things that transcends most dichotomies of life. From there you will gain the understanding of the 'wholeness' off things. It will also liberate yourself from many psychological constraint present in most of 'common' people.


Self-actualization also does not equates to wealth. Take for an example albert einstein (who according to the literature 'The farther reaches of human nature' is considered among those who are self-actualised), he is not that rich (in today's modern capitalistic sense). Passionate he is, but not extremely affluent, materially of financially.

But, of course, you have to get some level of wealth before you can gain self-actualization.

BTW, passion IS a need. It is a meta-need, which is higher than physical and social need.

This post has been edited by LuciferAmadeus: Feb 16 2011, 01:05 PM
LuciferAmadeus
post Feb 17 2011, 08:51 AM

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Well, i don't really understand what exactly a virtue is in philosophical sense, but i hope to be enlightened by this discussion.

QUOTE(SevenTwentyOne @ Feb 16 2011, 06:30 PM)
Hardworking is a virtue, but people can work all day and long while ignoring other more higher virtues, like loyalty to a being, henceforth this may also present one to be a man of virtue but ultimately a wicked one inside.
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'Win' can be achieved through hardworking, and so does 'truth'. Hardworking thus is only a tool, not a virtue.


QUOTE(SevenTwentyOne @ Feb 16 2011, 06:30 PM)
Therefore, to be a self actualized person, one must encompasses all virtues and eradicate vices within. Like a brahmin. Wiki: Brahmin.

However my question here, LuciferAmadeus, "a man has to do what a man has to do". Hence, with passion + virtues, how does it allows one to even fulfill the basic needs, where the rule of thumb to survive here constitute of "every man for himself", in order to achieve wealth, without uncompromisable acts, in order to work out something brlilliant like how zuck did?

My say would be...well, he's a born prodigy. However, being scientific that is a load of bollocks, but how you wanna prove it?
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That's why in self-actualization, one of the virtues is self-sufficiency. It is a must that you can take care of yourself. But, that does not mean that you have to be ridiculously wealthy to take care of yourself for 8 lifetimes. Enough that you gain to cater your needs in whatever realistic time frame foreseeable, and let the far future be determined not far before it.

If zuck uses his virtues to achieve wealth, then he has undermine the virtues and cares more about wealth. That is not a characteristics of a self-actualizer. The obsession with wealth is a neurotic tendency, because it may have developed from deprivation of lower needs from the lack of wealth in his life-history or it may have developed from inculcated culture. Self-actualizers should not have strong neurotic tendencies.

If that 'brilliant work' is born out of the obsession of wealth, then it is a neuroticism. If he gets wealth from the 'brilliant work' conceived out of the virtues (in this case 'passion' and 'perfection'), he got the fringe benefit of being a self-actualizer.

P/S: Passion is also one of self-actualizers' virtues.
P/SS: I'm discussing virtues in Maslowian's sense.

This post has been edited by LuciferAmadeus: Feb 17 2011, 03:40 PM
LuciferAmadeus
post Feb 18 2011, 07:35 AM

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QUOTE(SevenTwentyOne @ Feb 17 2011, 06:47 PM)
Rightfully defined. However since hardworking-ness is only a tool, and as if all tools, it will be useful only when human, with proper thoughts and reasoning, hence intelligence make full use of it.

Still, tools are discovered by humans, either by works of experiences, observation of naturally occurring phenomena, like creating a light bulb when you see the faces of the Moon enlightening the face of the Earth at night.

It is the passion that are imbued within each human that allows him to make the fullest use of given intelligence to faithfully craft out a tool to be made useful, hence hardworking is a, and only a tool.

Still, what would be the higher virtues required for making a useful tool ?

Would it be:
-) Instinctive
-) Passion
-) Sharing

Personally, I think is the fusion of all.  smile.gif
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LoL... this is getting philosophical, and in no way I am good at it. Let's see...

Virtues, in my opinion, are the values that allow people to fully live their respective life harmoniously together, with the observable reality as the intermediary. (

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Hence, the virtues are:
1. Truth - that is the objective truth which does not contradict reality
2. Wholeness - that is choice that transcends dichotomies
3. Perfection - that is un-fractured and consistent nature of reality. (Edit: my explanation here doesn't make sense.. perfection is a virtue because mediocrity and flaw means we are not fully living our life)
4. Self-sufficiency - that is independence from the reliance to each other
5. Passion - that is the sense of purpose in living our life
6. Simplicity - that is allowing us to understand each other effortlessly

I think there are many more, but i have trouble finding/explaining it.


QUOTE(SevenTwentyOne @ Feb 17 2011, 06:47 PM)
Wealth of monetary is wordly gratification, yes. Wealth of knowledge is a virtue. How about that?  wink.gif
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Well, based on my definition of virtue, a virtue is a worldly gratification (if by worldly you mean earthly). There's nothing mystic about it. smile.gif
The difference is that excessive material wealth often is at the expense of another person (hence not a virtue) while wealth of knowledge can be achieved by everyone harmoniously (not at the expense of another).

This post has been edited by LuciferAmadeus: Feb 18 2011, 09:53 AM
LuciferAmadeus
post Feb 18 2011, 10:09 AM

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TS, you might want to bring this discussion back to its focus... our fellow forumers here start to argue un-resolveable subjective issue here...

This post has been edited by LuciferAmadeus: Feb 18 2011, 10:13 AM
LuciferAmadeus
post Feb 18 2011, 10:33 AM

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QUOTE(teongpeng @ Feb 18 2011, 10:29 AM)
None of that is virtue.
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Yes, i'm mistaken with my simplistic usage of term... notworthy.gif

semantics sleep.gif"

This post has been edited by LuciferAmadeus: Feb 18 2011, 10:36 AM
LuciferAmadeus
post Feb 18 2011, 10:49 AM

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QUOTE(teongpeng @ Feb 18 2011, 10:29 AM)
, striving to be better
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Do you think it should be striving for perfection? (not necessarily to be perfect, just striving to make our perception and understanding perfect)

Because i think 'better' brings the relative connotation, it will be endless and may cause anxiety. Assuming that reality is finite (and i think that is a valid assumption based on our limited perception, hence finite reality), perfection is absolute within our senses hence hypothetically achievable.

This post has been edited by LuciferAmadeus: Feb 18 2011, 10:51 AM
LuciferAmadeus
post Feb 18 2011, 12:03 PM

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QUOTE(teongpeng @ Feb 18 2011, 11:35 AM)
Stirving for perfection or striving to be better are merely differenct standard in the goal we set for ourselves. The virtue here is hardwork and making an effort, taking initiative etc. Other virtues involved are honesty, courage, faith and steadfast, and to a lesser degree, respect. All these virtues have to be combined and cultivated by the person seeking to better themselves, so as not to give up halfway or being misled into wrong teachings.

Virtues when cultivated, grows. And like plants being watered, it will start to bear fruits (the result of the virtue). So yes, how we cultivate the plant, starting from the seed, determines what kind of fruits we will get.

On your assertion that striving for perfection is better than merely striving to be better,i can see where you are coming from. But like i said this is just the difference in the standard we set for ourselves. In my opinion, striving for perfection, although noble in intent, is very hard to achieve and sometimes we may be dejected by the constant failure to reach a goal too distanct in the future. On the other hand, just wanting to be better than we were before, allows us to achieve successful result with each attempt. Our success can be measured and confirmed sooner. Constant success reinforces our believes and encourages us on our path. Such constant positive reinforcements is also beneficial to our self esteem and this indirectly effects our confidence in other aspects of our lives.

Like right now, i've just taken up running/jogging as a sport. To be perfect in running would mean to be able to win a marathon. But my approach isnt to win any marathon although one day i might. Now i'm just focused on being a better runner month by month. I try not to focus on where i will end up as a runner, but i just allow my hardwork to bear its own result.
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Hmmm... there must be a reason why Maslow put perfection rather than betterment as an element of virtue.

Maybe i misinterpreted perfection here. Perhaps perfection here means 'suitability'. It means that it is grounded on reality and can be reasonably accepted by other people.

Betterment is not Maslowian virtue, because it implies (implies only, doesn't really mean "it means") that we cannot accept ourselves, hence be anxious to strive for better while not knowing where it will end.
LuciferAmadeus
post Feb 21 2011, 10:00 AM

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QUOTE(teongpeng @ Feb 18 2011, 09:50 PM)
what is perfection? do you know where it will end?
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Given that the latter definition of perfection (suitability), it would be enough if most of our actions are realistic and does not interfere with other reasonable people. Hence, we can stop there once we achieved the two conditions.

Maslowian self-actualizers are realistic in action, but idealistic in aspiration, and they know how to separate reality and the ideal. Striving for the better is realistic, but so does striving for perfection (as in 'suitability'). The difference is that perfection is definite, while better will always be relative.

The idea of maslow's hierarchy of need is of 'liberation', hence it requires 'effortlessness' (that's why i cringe every time i use the word 'striving' when i talk about self-actualization). 'Striving for better' will always be a continuous effort, while 'Striving (Going might be a more suitable word?) for perfection' once achieved will always be a natural definiteness.

This post has been edited by LuciferAmadeus: Feb 21 2011, 12:14 PM

 

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