hmmm... but the above conclusion still didn't answer the thread question... photography or gear?
if refer back to TS 1st post...
"The Ultimate purpose of having a DSLR is to capture some nice images or all about the photography gear?"
dam dum dam dum debate there & here... so my conclusion that...
purpose of having a DSLR is to capture some nice images BUT need an 'upgrade' to the gear...
it cross related between nice images AND gear, NOT nice images OR gear
both must come together...


thisss...
it cross related between nice images AND gear, NOT nice images OR gear

This post has been edited by epo: Feb 9 2011, 06:21 PM

This is what I am trying to say all this time.
http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...&#entry38996884
Quote from the guy named jaycee1.
you define the gear you need. it's not an option of either one of photography or gear. but it's should get along. not to say you shouldn't but any gear. but limited gear will bring you even further.
just my 2 cents.

I do respect people using kit lens. IDK why.
sometimes I realize the actual meaning of photography is a bit fade off.
most of people from my country use it as a trend. they don't bother to learn about shutter speed, iso, color, aperture, etc etc.
they just use it, bring it set the setting into automatic.

there they are the gearo-graphy.



This post has been edited by aldosoesilo: Feb 9 2011, 06:41 PM

imo, better gears just opens more doors.

better gears help a lot and can save time

Save time means the focussing speed?

As long as the person can produce magnificent picture, then it's worth respecting.
However in Malaysia, more often that not you see newbies with entry level + kit lens + holding it the wrong way.
I find it very hard to believe that these people can take proper pictures.

To me photography is 1/3 gear, 1/3 skills, 1/3 post processing.
To succeed and be different from the sea of photographers now, one must be good in all 3.

maybe. and of coz save time on PP

haha true...

550d+ 50mm 1.8 ii can have a good image and also with 18-55 kit lens.. but when it comes to output.. the amount of time to PP is... unless of course you use "enough light situation" which you can't get it just anywhere

many of you think still subjects you can do a thousand times from 9am to 6pm. this one applies to hobbyist for the most part, no commitment of delivery.

if you're doing commercial work - you don't have the time. you have hundreds of thousands, in some cases even millions of A&P budget behind a commercial campaign.

client say want to shoot a beer but want to feel feminine. without the knowledge / skill / experience, you shoot 3 days day and night also might not be able to get.

about the subject / precise moments part - well that's not relevant to what i posted but since you brought it up, yes you may miss the once in a lifetime moment because of gear capability but how important is that shot? one thing for sure you still do have a chance but as always, photography for moments with action often rely on luck. that's why for sports coverage, a publication would send a few guys and placed on varying spots to maximize the possibility of good photos.



people do use expensive high end gear for still pics.

------------------

anyway, regarding the title Photography vs Gear - it is flawed. Photography is photography, no such thing as vs gear.

the camera, the lens, whatever you use are just tools to take photo. the gear is a pre-requisite. you need them before you take photo but in the end photography is about the art if taking the photo.

go to any photography exhibition - what are on exhibit? photographs. why? because photography is about photographs. if you go art exhibition, it's the same thing. only the art is on exhibit, no details on the artist's painting tool.

take a trip to WPPI and see for yourself - judges judge the images, they look at the detail, the effort, the message if any. they couldn't be bothered about what gear or what is the EXIF on the photos.

just go look at any magazine out there - week after week, what's are the main topics? HOW TO capture _______ .

in the end photography gear is just a tool. it's just like the what a brush, oil and canvas is to the artists of old.

go ahead and buy the best brush, best oil and best canvas to paint nonsense and say you're enjoying painting.

---

Added on February 9, 2011, 10:51 pmhaha indeed.

I'd say just go with whatever that feels good in your hand and then just snap a good moment or story of the day. Why bother debating something that yourself has determine on it? some say skill and some say gear, in the end? it is yourself to convince either is it skill or gear or is it skill and gear?

yup i think i refer to hobby... i dunno if there's a forumer here mmg 100% salary depend on his shot/pics...
no shot/pics no eat...


i dunno to others but for me it's important to make the pics tell the 'story'. when i'm attending an event, there's a lot of 'story' scene... face expressions, happy, sad, cry, laugh, un-expected action, etc...
when include the above in the album, it make your album more meaningful... instead of just a hundreds of plain pics like flower, cake, bottle, chair, dress where i think i'm also not sure what the pics try to tell the audience...

and to get the above 'story' scene, i confident we can't rely on kit lens. people habit normally can't see a camera focus on them. they'll try to smile, look happy and do some posing. it's ok but feel un-natural... that's why the 200-300mm lens kick-in to get the natural shot where people is totally dunno where the cameraman is. so they'll act natural & feel like nothing happen.

at the end when we completed they album and passed it back to them, they're become more happy bcoz they feel shocked with a candid pics inside whereby they also didn't remember when they act/posing like that...

oh i love that moments, i feel very proud when the family smile when look at my album...
but now with my current gear... sighhh...


agreed... lucky i quote "beginner gear for a still pics / high gear for a still & fast pics...?"


yes... above answer more like complete the TS question...

This post has been edited by epo: Feb 10 2011, 10:03 AM

I would like to change that ratio a little bit

50% - Photographers ability to see things differently
20% - skills
15% - gears
15% - post processing

Note why I separate skills from the ability to see things differently is that there are people who just have that artistic feel to things and are just able to capture amazing photos but when you ask them what did they use or what f stop bla bla bla, they will be huh?

How you see!
It was indeed something amazing for 1 artistic mind with no interest in photography teach you how to take a beautiful shot.

haha. reminds me of Manny Librodo. I go on a similar note with your % ratio.

well yeah, when you shoot a wedding and such, or events, you want to capture moments.

no doubt about that. the problem was your earlier post was saying capturing moments more critical or important while capturing still subjects was easy, you have plenty of time.

my post was to highlight that different forms of photography holds different challenges. yes, you treasure capturing moments, i do too, who doesn't? but that doesn't mean capturing stills subjects is an easy task.

regarded the bolded part above - do you know what is a kit lens? Did you know that Canon 7D comes with 15-85 IS USM kit lens and 5D2 comes with 24-105L and those are really great kit lenses? and did you know that even 18-55 IS / 18-55 VR / SAL1870 or whatever kit lens that comes with your brand still can capture moments?

when it comes to photography, first thing to set right is your head and heart - if you keep thinking that 18-55 IS can't capture wan la, your heart won't even move already........... then susah already. whatever gear you have, it still can capture, success rate may not be that good compared to higher gears BUT that's where you train yourself to anticipate the moment and train your finger pressing.

in fact for the whole thing above that you mentioned about capturing wedding moments and whatever else - it's more about the photographer's ability than the gear. You can ask people like Mavik, he's an experienced wedding photographer.

--------------

btw saw this on Twitter the other day, you guys should read too http://pixsylated.com/2011/02/jake-shimabu...le-photography/

chop chop chop... 7d & 5d2 fall under high end already... out of topic...
yes still can capture a moments but with a limitations... not a fast lens, shorter in focal length... any moments require that both conditions will failed...


i tried... but the kitlens (not high end kitlens) still failed me... kakaka...
same reason as the above, capture but with limitations...


still didn't get this quote...

"Embrace the fact that your skill and your passion are the keys to becoming a better photographer — not the value of the gear in your bag."

he keep mentioning how important is a skill to becoming a better photographer not a gear, but from my understanding look like skill is nowhere if we stuck at beginner gear due to the thin wallet... or in other words... value of the gear (upgrade lens, etc) need to be factored in if u want to becoming a better photographer...

is the quote should be like this...? sharpen your skill with beginner gear & upgrade your gear to expand your skill abilites...

like football, it's something like you'll be a 'jaguh kampung' if you always win the tournament between kg A & kg B & any kampung within your area (your skill sharpen already) but if you want to expand your skill & exp (learn new abilities), you need to move from your kampung, fight in state tournament, after that country tournament, lastly world cup...

then u know, dulu during jaguh kg, i can dribble 3-4 players & shoot a goal but when come to world cup... nak dribble 1 defender pun can't get through...

p/s : to relate the above... beginner gear = kampung , high gear = world cup. this is an example haaa... no hurt feeling haaa coz use word kampung...

hmmm... did i missing anything...???

This post has been edited by epo: Feb 10 2011, 06:32 PM

this is a stupid debate.

there are some things that we can only do our part to say but it's up to the reader to understand, and perhaps believe.

hahaha... look stupid... but at least i can say something to a new comer...
mau main DSLR ke? see your wallet 1st, otherwise your skill is nowhere...

and also few TS question has been answered :-

Auntie, uncle, dad, mom, granny all holding a DSLR nowdays, why?
A : bcoz of hobby only

Enthusiast need L lens or full frame camera?
A : go for it if your want to expand your skill abilites

An enthusiast or leisure photo takers like me and many others why should we buy a profesional level type of gear?
A : buy pro gear to expand your skill abilities

I know buying gear is kinda fun but what is the purpose of having such a top notch gears ending all theirs picture uploaded to facebook, flicker,etc.
A : having top notch gears to expand your skill abilities. upload to facebook or flickr just to share with friends

should spend more effort to learn, develop and appreciate photography instead of spending thousands on the gear.
A : yeah should spend more on both. can't use word "instead" otherwise you're skill is nowhere...

the rest i leave it to TS to dig the answer...

i hate to say this but look at goldie's blog. some of his food shots are taken with an entry level body+kitlens only. u keep said ''mau main DSLR ke? see your wallet 1st, otherwise your skill is nowhere...'' and it really bugs me. some of us are'nt that rich and we're happy with what we have. and sometimes some really basic gear can do wonders too. a dude in canon's thread use a 500D and still manage to get some wonderful sports action shots. still not fast enough? go n get ur gear and try it. stop arguing about facts and theories here. the practical counts more.

hahaha... u think the above bugs u alone? it also bugs me & i think it's bugs me more than u feel... lucky i can accept the fact, otherwise i need to sell my old car to expand my skill abilities...

i've also admit that pics taken by goldfries was awesome with kitlens but how about below examples...

my friend : we've shot food pics for more than a year, how about we move to the new level, shot insect?
me : yeah... sounds good, i also don't want to become pro 'food' pics for the rest of my life...
my friend : ok come on let's go, time to shopping 'macro' lens
me : errr... errr... how much the cheapest 'macro' lens?
my friend : i think around rm1k...
me : (in my heart, he are saying rm1k like rm10)...
my friend : so what you're waiting for...? you're expect to shot insect with your kitlens?
me : u go 1st laaa... i think i want to stick to food pics forever...

see how with limited gear will limit your skill...?

so when i read people writing that "no need high end gear, standard gear can capture nice pics already"... actually they're not telling the truth, they're just want to cool u down so u don't feel ashamed with your standard gear...


yes i'm happy with what i'm have but a bit dissapointed coz i can't expand my skill abilities with current gear...
i repeat again, no hurt feeling just want to hear/share a thought...


wow i thought max kitlens can go up to 55/70mm max, how he can get a close to the action shot? walk inside the field?

This post has been edited by epo: Feb 11 2011, 05:56 PM