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English Clubs Liverpool Football Club - The Kop Talks 2010, DONE DEAL: WELCOME NESV,JOHN HENRY

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koolspyda
post Oct 5 2010, 12:16 PM

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QUOTE(sokaik80 @ Oct 5 2010, 01:10 PM)
i watched aquillani played for juve against inter d other day
he's fit (lasted almost 70mins), showed great 1st touch n good vision in distributing passess...much2 better than lucas-poulsen...
why RH bothered to loan him out?
*
my biggest guess is liverpoolfc (read owners) needed to tighen their salary slip. he's is someone who is a 50-50 in coming back from a major injury & hasnt been seen in too many BPL games that he could match the pace. its was the 'safer' path. less risk. save on the purse.



normeck
post Oct 5 2010, 12:19 PM

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QUOTE(sokaik80 @ Oct 5 2010, 12:10 PM)
i watched aquillani played for juve against inter d other day
he's fit (lasted almost 70mins), showed great 1st touch n good vision in distributing passess...much2 better than lucas-poulsen...
why RH bothered to loan him out?
*
RH dont know how to use Aqua...and i dont know why he want Poulsen...'asal beli saja ok la' attitude? did he ask our scout when he buy Poulsen?

O-haiyo
post Oct 5 2010, 12:33 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Oct 5 2010, 12:15 PM)
Hodgson doesn't appear to be a fan of players with good technique, preferring instead robust workmanlike ones. I don't see any other reason why Poulsen gets to start ahead of Lucas (as bad as I think he is), Maxi keeps being brought on as an impact player, and Agger is constantly overlooked despite us leaking goals.

Aquillani was a puzzling signing. Even when he was fit, he was deemed to fragile to play against physical sides. I don't know why Hodgson loaned him out despite our lack of quality in that department and I don't know why Benitez even signed him in the first place.
*
Aquilani issue, it's definitely a gamble from Rafa. At Roma, he was one of the most highly rated players in the squad. Maybe the idea is to get a quality passer in the midfield and to push Gerrard playing behind Torres. But buying an long term injured player is definitely a gamble. Fergie waited for 1 season before he bought RVN, just to make sure he fully recovered from his injuries.
LukeMjstc
post Oct 5 2010, 12:37 PM

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Here's an interesting article:
QUOTE
Roy Hodgson = Robbie Keane?
Buying Robbie Keane was arguably one of Benitez' biggest mistakes. It was the last major purchase that wasn't financed with outgoing sales (as when Alonso paid for Aquilani and Johnson), and it turned out to be a massive bust.

However, Rafa realized it in short order, and shipped Keane out at the first opportunity. Having paid £19m for the player, Liverpool recouped somewhere between £12-16m, depending on unannounced add-ons that may or may not have been reached. Granted, £3-7m is still a loss, and that the manager wasn't allowed to use those funds to replace the player still frustrates, but Liverpool knew when to cut its losses, and still came the closest to winning the league since the trophy was last lifted in 1990. Since then, Keane's barely featured for Spurs, and was loaned to Celtic last spring, who refused to pony up whatever Tottenham demanded for the player. Now, the former captain is behind Defoe, Crouch, and Paylyuchenko in the pecking order, and Spurs couldn't give him away during the summer transfer window. Had Liverpool kept Keane for the entirety of '08-09, who knows if they would have reaped the same results, and I highly doubt they would have reaped as much in the transfer fee.

Liverpool needs to do the same thing with Roy Hodgson.

I'm as afraid of the Newcastle parallels as anyone. Liverpool has rarely been a firing club. Souness and Evans were sacked mid-season (February and November, respectively), but more often than not, the manager's given multiple chances to come good. Which, of course, is why it was so frustrating to see Benitez sacked after one bad season.

And yes, it's only been seven league games (14 in all competitions), but I fear that Hodgson will never come good. His tactics are embarrassingly outdated, unsuited to the current squad, and he's shown little clue as to what managing Liverpool means.

Let's review the tactical problems first.

Refusal to press high up the pitch. This is one of the biggest changes from Benitez's style, along with the deep backline and man-marking on set plays (we'll get there). And it's hindering Liverpool in attack. Eto'o gave an interesting interview a week ago on the topic:
"With Mourinho we played on the counter-attack, with Benitez we press more and that's better for us forwards because we win back the ball higher up the pitch and create more chances."
It's no coincidence that while Eto'o is thriving under Benitez, Torres is struggling under Hodgson, almost completely starved of chances. Yes, he's been injured, but he's been injured off and on for three seasons now, and still scored 17 goals in '08-09 and 22 goals in '09-10. In 38 and 32 appearances respectively. But because Liverpool's not pressing as high up the pitch, Torres is receiving the ball in deeper positions, often with his back to goal. Players like Kuyt, Cole, and Gerrard aren't able to get behind the backline when Torres does hold play up because they're coming from deeper (if Gerrard comes forward at all). Nonetheless, if we're counting set plays won (specifically, the two against United), Torres has created four goals, the most assists in the squad so far this season. But he looks a disgruntled, off-form fish out of water, and that's massively frightening given the rumors that surrounded the player this summer.

The dreadfully deep backline. I've highlighted this on multiple occasions, most notably in the average position comparison of the Sunderland matches. Liverpool's used to a high backline reliant on the offside trap, with attacking fullbacks who provide the width. Now, players like Johnson are being asked to defend at the edge of their penalty area, which leads to moments like the terrible penalty concession against Blackpool. They're basically inviting teams to attack, which Blackpool were glad to do on Sunday. Liverpool's happier hoofing the ball out of defense than playing it to the defensive midfielders and building from the back, and Agger – the most-creative center-back in the squad, has been ostracized for the bullying talents of Carragher, Skrtel, and Kyrgiakos. The Dane's played nine times this season. He's been a center-back twice, against Steaua and Northampton. He's been a left-back in all six of his league appearances, including thrice off the bench because Konchesky got injured.

Lack of width. Yes, width was a problem under Rafa as well. It has been since the days of Barnes and McManaman. But we rarely saw a central midfielder forced out to the right; it's diabolically baffling that Meireles continues to play there, and it's no surprise the Portuguese looked twice the player when moving centrally in the last 30 minutes against Blackpool. At the same time, Kuyt, Cole, and Jovanovic aren't 4-4-2 wingers. Benitez's 4-2-3-1 system (while pressing high up the pitch) played to Kuyt's strengths – as he did with Holland during the World Cup – but asking him to play as a typical out-and-out winger highlights his deficiencies on the ball and on the touchline. If he, or Cole, or Jovanovic come inside, the fullback's completely exposed because there's no one like Mascherano to cover. And Cole's had the same problems when deployed on the left (as has Jovanovic), leading to the incredibly narrow formation. This is the one difference to Hodgson's formation at Fulham, where he used "opposite wingers" like Duff and Davies (left-footers on the right, right-footers on the left, allowing players to cut in and shoot) to good effect.

Man-marking on set plays. Zonal marking was a stick used to unfairly beat Benitez throughout his tenure, but like pressing high up the pitch, it was a tactic suited to the players in the squad. Liverpool's not the tallest team, and aside from Hyypiä and Kyrgiakos, Liverpool hasn't had aerially-dominate center-backs. Zonal marking helped ameliorate that weakness by marking areas instead of creating one-on-one matches where the opposition were at an advantage. At the same time, Reina, at 6'2", isn't incredibly tall as goalkeepers go. Man-marking leads to crowds around the keeper when opponents pile men into the box, making it harder for Pepe to get space and claim balls into the box.

Leaving substitutions until late. Thankfully, this changed against Blackpool, but Hodgson waited until the 75th minute against Birmingham, the 81st against Utrecht, and at the beginning of extra time against Northampton. Liverpool were level in all three. Was Hodgson really happy with the team during those matches? Were ineffective draws the goal? And we thought the last manager was stubborn in his starting XI selections...

Poulsen. This isn't truly tactical. But I'm still flummoxed that Christian Poulsen – who can't jump, can't tackle, and plays even safer, less creative passes than Lucas – has marginalized the Brazilian. Every manager has favorites, but those favorites shouldn't be keeping better, younger players out of the squad.

Shipping out Aquilani and Insua, marginalizing Agger and Lucas. We don't know how much the board (read: Purslow) is to blame for the first two. But Hodgson could have fought those battles if he so desired. Now, Liverpool has a huge hole at left-back (despite buying Konchesky and re-signing Aurelio) and Aquilani's been increasingly excellent for Juventus – paired with the defensive Felipe Melo in central midfield, no less. Not as an out-and-out attacking midfielder as we thought he needed to be. At the same time, the likes of Lucas and Agger – both better than those who have replaced them – are relegated to the second-string. The fear that both will depart in the January window heightens with each match.

And then there are the embarrassing comments, making it that much harder to respect Hodgson, leading to the belief that he just doesn't get this club or its fans. He took five days to defend Torres from Ferguson's drunken rantings after the United match. He threw his "B-team" under the bus after the loss to Northampton. He was seemingly satisfied with underwhelming draws against Birmingham, Sunderland, and Utrecht, with Liverpool arguably outplayed in all three. He ham-handedly critiqued fan's protests against the owners. And there were the recent jaw-dropping quotes in the run-up to Sunday's match, where Hodgson referred to himself as 'one of the most-respected managers in Europe.'

I've become more vehement in my critiques, and in demanding his exit, for two reasons. One, because I'm increasingly convinced Hodgson can't and won't change. Some say he needs time to implement his system, but we're seeing his system. It's the same system he used at Fulham. Defend deep, 'keep the shape', hope to strangle the opposition, and hope to get something against the run of play. It actually worked for Fulham against Liverpool in both meetings last season. But it's a small-club mentality, and it's not working with the players Liverpool has. I doubt that it ever can.

Two, because of the international break, this seems as good an opportunity as any to get a new manager in. Admittedly, the majority of first-team players will be away with their countries, but it's still two more weeks for to get settled and work with those not on international duty. And if the new man is Dalglish, he'll hit the ground running because of his familiarity with the club and players. If Liverpool failing to get a result against Everton on the 17th (God forbid) leads to Hodgson getting the sack, there are only four days before the next match at Napoli. Because of the Europa League, Liverpool has two games a week almost every week until mid-December. That schedule will really hurt a new manager's chances of settling quickly. And by then, it really could be too late.

I don't want to see Dalglish's legacy tarnished by the ownership debacle, but I truly believe we can't wait until they're finally booted out. Multiple RBS deadlines have been mooted, whether it's the 1st, 6th, 11th, or 15th of this month, but that won't be the end of the fight by any means. And because of the situation, I think Dalglish is the best choice – a legitimately safe pair of hands, unlike the manager we got this summer. Other names mooted, like Pelligrini, Rijkaard, etc., actually are untenable until the off-field situation is resolved. Dalglish is different. It's not as if he's been away from the game, living in a cave, since his last managerial position.

To use a phrase our Texan tumor will understand, know when to hold them, and know when to fold them. It's time to fold this hand before the stakes are too high to buy back in.


SOS
rushmode
post Oct 5 2010, 12:41 PM

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rafa prefered setup was gerrad in free role supporting torres while masch as DM and aqua as AM. he gamble hoping aqua to quickly heal up and be fit for primetime but he lost his bet.. this and the barry saga is one of his biggest mistakes while he's here.
Everdying
post Oct 5 2010, 12:46 PM

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QUOTE(rushmode @ Oct 5 2010, 12:41 PM)
rafa prefered setup was gerrad in free role supporting torres while masch as DM and aqua as AM. he gamble hoping aqua to quickly heal up and be fit for primetime but he lost his bet.. this and the barry saga is one of his biggest mistakes while he's here.
*
none of the mistakes can compare to the sorry ass that is poulsen.

btw, another good positive is that the fast food lfc fans seem to have dissapeared...
in the last week or so i can count on one hand the number of lfc jerseys i've seen outside...
Forester
post Oct 5 2010, 12:50 PM

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QUOTE(sokaik80 @ Oct 5 2010, 12:10 PM)
i watched aquillani played for juve against inter d other day
he's fit (lasted almost 70mins), showed great 1st touch n good vision in distributing passess...much2 better than lucas-poulsen...
why RH bothered to loan him out?
*
Because RH doesn't know how to use his players. RH doesn't know what he's doing. Aquilani and Insua set out on loan, brought in aging players Konchesky and Poulsen for almost $10 million. Babel, Aurelio, Lucas and Maxi is going to be playing in a reserve match against West Ham while Poulsen and Carra gets to play week in week out. Shocking.

Roy likes to hoof it - HOOF IT!
Roy likes to hoof it - HOOF IT!
Roy likes to hoof it - HOOF IT!
Roy likes to - HOOF IT!!!

This post has been edited by Forester: Oct 5 2010, 01:01 PM
koonx
post Oct 5 2010, 12:51 PM

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Division 1 ada fantasy football play??
koolspyda
post Oct 5 2010, 12:58 PM

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QUOTE(Everdying @ Oct 5 2010, 01:46 PM)
none of the mistakes can compare to the sorry ass that is poulsen.

btw, another good positive is that the fast food lfc fans seem to have dissapeared...
in the last week or so i can count on one hand the number of lfc jerseys i've seen outside...
*
you can count me as one of the defiant one, i am still wearing my LFc jerseys on weekends. but its the previous carlsberg black LFc one. I'm in the state of mourning at the affairs at liverpool. vmad.gif

Forester
post Oct 5 2010, 01:08 PM

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QUOTE(koolspyda @ Oct 5 2010, 12:58 PM)
you can count me as one of the defiant one, i am still wearing my LFc jerseys on weekends. but its the previous carlsberg black LFc one. I'm in the state of mourning at the affairs at liverpoolvmad.gif
*
"At the end of the storm, is a golden sky." Better get used to the affairs, we won't be seeing the golden sky for quite a long time.
Mikeshashimi
post Oct 5 2010, 01:40 PM

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QUOTE(sokaik80 @ Oct 5 2010, 12:10 PM)
i watched aquillani played for juve against inter d other day
he's fit (lasted almost 70mins), showed great 1st touch n good vision in distributing passess...much2 better than lucas-poulsen...
why RH bothered to loan him out?
*
to be honest, i think most of us here dont know whats going on in RH's mind... he has boggled most of us with his refusal to use all 3 substitutes in a match.
and also insist on fielding weaker players instead of better ones... Im also missing the fact that he never starts Torres and Ngog together.. or refuses to give babel more chances...

and to someone who thinks kuyt is a poor man's berba... check ur facts first before u utter biased opinions... just because berba has found his touch in the start of this season, does not make him any better than anyone. i will stop replying to so called 'facts' for now.

as for Rafa, i used to like the guy... the way he handled post-match interviews... the way he was so calm but interested on the field.. he'll be yelling on the pitch.. unlike someone right now who sits and scratches his head when we're trailing at home... Rafa bossed around yes, he rotates a little too much, yes... but he was concern about the club and the concern IMO was somewhat a genuine one... Roy seems lost, he doesnt know what to say, he keeps saying that we have to turn things around.. he keeps stating the obvious....
lilredridinghood
post Oct 5 2010, 02:05 PM

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QUOTE(madmoz @ Oct 5 2010, 11:59 AM)
Would just like to remind those who are reminiscing about how great Rafa was - did he also not totally make a mess of last season and had a habit of blaming everyone but himself?

I know Hodgson isn't exactly making the right headlines, but would people stop going "Rafa! Rafa!" at every other post, especially those who were adamant on wanting him out just a few months ago doh.gif

Again, even if I could travel back in time, I would still have wanted Rafa to leave - he reneged on his promises twice and just wasn't the correct manager for us. But extending his contract and thus having to pay him to leave took some real business acumen eh, yanks?

DANG! DUKE NINJA-ED ME AGAIN!!!!  vmad.gif
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He did indeed screwed up the Alonso's issue, but had it not be because of Xabi's lack of showing until the season before he left, would Rafa even consider selling him? And it was Alonso's best season that almost got us a title, gambling on Aquilani was a bad move as well, but who else did we have? I hate to say the word if as it is not substantial, but if only Aquilani was fit and both Gerrard, Torres were fit last season, we could be reigning BPL champions now. Again, I reiterate, it's hypothetical not substantial.

Also, according to Phil Tomkins, Carragher refused to play right back against Boro, which we lost. When he was deployed the following game as a right back against the Mancs due to more injury problems, we won 4-1 and. So should we blame Carragher for that?

Rafa's not perfect and is well known for his excuses. But who was the one who exposed most of the things of the owners to the fans? Who was fighting for LFC and who was willing to stay and fight till he met up with Purslow and Broughton?

Not forgetting on how much did he donate to the charity after his sacking and kept his relationship close with the Liverpool fans despite not obliged to do so.

Again, Rafa's not perfect, but also not a perfect timing for him to leave, I would have given him one more season, just one more to bring some glory back to us. I personally do not understand why were you pissed by his broken promises. At times, words were given out just to boost the team's morale, just to make them fight. Did Arsene Wenger and Slur not failed to honour their promises? Did Jose Mourinho win the Champions League for Chelsea? Why didn't Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd fans turn their back on them?

Last season, you kept mentioning that Rafa did not do things the Liverpool way, so what was the cause? The owners' pressure might have gotten into him which led him to him losing the dressing room. But Carragher isn't exactly a guy that honours his words ain't it? He did mention that he liked Fergie because the Slur isn't afraid to ask people to "F. Off", but when Rafa did the same, he said that Rafa made Liverpool classless.

What I'm asking is, Rafa did give us some good memories albeit some bad ones as well, he has certainly set quite a yardstick for RH. And obviously to some of us, we weren't exactly favouring Rafa to leave after last season, so you can't really blame the fans for missing him.

Or Maddie, are you just fighting for last season again? tongue.gif
lilredridinghood
post Oct 5 2010, 02:16 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Oct 5 2010, 12:15 PM)
Hodgson doesn't appear to be a fan of players with good technique, preferring instead robust workmanlike ones. I don't see any other reason why Poulsen gets to start ahead of Lucas (as bad as I think he is), Maxi keeps being brought on as an impact player, and Agger is constantly overlooked despite us leaking goals.

Aquillani was a puzzling signing. Even when he was fit, he was deemed to fragile to play against physical sides. I don't know why Hodgson loaned him out despite our lack of quality in that department and I don't know why Benitez even signed him in the first place.
*
Doubt so, Joe Cole is a pretty technically gifted player, I guess he prefers an older, more experienced player in his team.
socratesman
post Oct 5 2010, 02:48 PM

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QUOTE(triple02 @ Oct 3 2010, 11:58 PM)
"To suggest that, because I have moved from one club to another, that the methods which have stood me in good stead for 35 years and made me one of the most respected coaches in Europe don't suddenly work is very hard to believe
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doh.gif doh.gif doh.gif
A good manager would learn to adapt to the current situation, even if it means abandoning methods which have worked for the past 35 f**king years.
farisq
post Oct 5 2010, 03:07 PM

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Watched our Season Review 2007-2008 last nite, and I just can't stop smiling biggrin.gif It was the first season for Torres, n if not mistaken Babel as well.

I also noticed that....

-Babel played quite well on the right flank with few goals and some good understanding with Kuyt
-Sissoko tackle/pressing to win the ball ala Masch
-

PLiz don't get me wrong, I'm not asking you to forget about our current problem. Think of it as a temporary remedy for our depressed soul blush.gif Well it worked for me.

Well here's the link...
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5r59b_li...2007-200_people
Ichighost
post Oct 5 2010, 03:08 PM

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QUOTE(socratesman @ Oct 5 2010, 03:48 PM)
doh.gif  doh.gif  doh.gif
A good manager would learn to adapt to the current situation, even if it means abandoning methods which have worked for the past 35 f**king years.
*
Agree..one manager must go with the flow...then later change the team slowly to his favourite ..just to give a situation..

Jose to Chelsea...he backed by Roman, so he can buy to play his favourite formation 4-3-3-after that he move to Inter..Inter got a good players to play 4-4-2..He improvised to play 4-Diamond 2..with the basic of 4-2-2..now he at Madid with a strong attacking lineup...he change again...4-2-3-1...His adaptability is superb! My favourite Manager!

carloz28
post Oct 5 2010, 03:28 PM

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My heart broke into pieces when I saw the headlines on the Star Paper today..................
cherroy
post Oct 5 2010, 03:53 PM

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QUOTE(Ichighost @ Oct 5 2010, 03:08 PM)
Agree..one manager must go with the flow...then later change the team slowly to his favourite ..just to give a situation..

Jose  to Chelsea...he backed by Roman, so he can buy to play his favourite formation 4-3-3-after that he move to Inter..Inter got a good players to play 4-4-2..He improvised to play 4-Diamond 2..with the basic of 4-2-2..now he at Madid with a strong attacking lineup...he change again...4-2-3-1...His adaptability is superb! My favourite Manager!
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A manager should bring the best out of the available player at his disposal.

A tactic work previous with previous set of player, doesn't mean it works for now or current available players.

For eg.
You have Crouch, Heskey type of player, you can hoof the ball up and let them do the damage. But if you have Torres, Cole (who are not known for their aerial ability or strength), play this kind of tactic will make them looks poor only.

Just like put Carra at central half, he can make a lot of last ditch tackle to protect Reina. Look magnificent
Putting him at left back when the team was trailing and badly need a goal, and tell him to make overlap run and making cross, where can, oftern receive the ball at oppponent half at winger side, clueless already. Suddenly become a poor player with this.

Even the ball itself has changed many many version. Modern day ball when travelling in the air, is way different the old day ball, modern ball is lighter and can bend easily.
So new GK coach also need to follow modern technique to teach Gk to catch a ball.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Oct 5 2010, 03:53 PM
rushmode
post Oct 5 2010, 03:53 PM

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one more thing i think it's time to drop Carra to the bench or he is still untouchable? to most fans, it's blasphemous to suggest Carra to be relegated as backup CB. but his age has caught up with him and he's been shite this season.

it's known that the players leading the so-called dressing room uprising last season was gerrard and carra. it is understandable why they've done that. apart from the ego factor, like many of us.. they also think rafa couldn't bring their beloved team forward anymore. but one thing they failed to admit that they both (especially gerrard) also is partly responsible for the club's poor season last year. they were both mediocre at best.. they might do it again to take RH down. the point i try to bring here is, players with too much influence is not good for the club stability.. especially one with a big ego.

let's hope come 6th or whatever the date is.. RBS will take over and release us from the yanks.
madmoz
post Oct 5 2010, 03:56 PM

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well said lilredridinghood.

the current relevations/accusations about Carragher are news to me. Always thought he was the model professional... Perhaps age is catching up to him and the only way for him to feel secure is by having a manager who plays to his strengths?

at the moment i really do not know what to think and who to believe anymore, which is sad. Rafa's gone, so I am actively supporting 'pool again, but oh what a nice mess we are in!

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