APR56,

Thanks for wanting tp be part of this experiment.

So far, the aroma challenge prize is RM10k.

Contributors welcome.

Aroma promoters will make a fortune through the publicity gained if their aroma truly works. We will separate the real ones from the fakes. If it works, all farmers would benefit tremendously. If it doesn't work, then we farmers have been taken for a ride for far too long.

Remember the story of WD40?

Thanks for all the input. For the results to be valid, all the conditions must be similar.

It can be done in any BH provided the planks where the aroma is to be applied must be the same, i.e. if no speakers on NP1, then the rest also got no speaker.

Only 1 type of aroma per section with each section having anywhere from 4 - 8 planks. If other aroma is also under test, then a different set of NPs should be used.

If the aroma is truly effective, I repeat, the birds should gather as per pattern of aroma application.

Price is now RM10K. Any takers?

If you are convince that your aroma is special, subject it to the test, even in your own appointed BH is fine with me. Come on. help clear the industry of any doubts on aroma.

If the aroma succeed, then their brand name would be in Low Yat Hall of Fame!

In the open market, there are always unscrupulous people taking advantage of the public. Fraudulent misrepresentation of facts is against the Law. So this project will separate the true ones from the false ones.

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that other factors are important in making a BH successful. The role played by aroma needs to be properly determined.

The reward of RM10k + Fame should be conducive enough for genuine aroma makers. After that he can make tons of $$$$$ by being the certified aroma champion.

I have a friend who has tried almost all the aroma in the market. You name it, he has got it before.

For some it worked, for some, it didn't. That is not the way to move forward. A doctor cannot prescribe a medicine that is not proven.

The importance of other factors in making a BH successful is not disputed. What I need to established is the importance of aroma in luring the birds to make love or at least stay at the spot where the aroma has been applied.

I can take pictures of my BH where hundreds of birds group together but no aroma has been applied. There are also places where the birds do not gather.

Making aroma is not that difficult if you apply basic sciences to it. Extracting oil from the feathers and distilling it is not rocket science. So are other methods. At the end of the day, the efficacy of the aroma needs to be established. Some promoters are real gentleman, only claim aroma is complementary. Some claim like IT IS the magic. So why not subject them to a proper test?

This challenge so far is sponsored by myself and another forumer. The results however will be posted in this forum for all to see.

Let's see how many aroma promoters are willing to subject their products to this test. After all, you don't want to give untested medicine to your sick child.

This post has been edited by coolandy: Dec 24 2010, 10:13 AM

I am not talking about applying aroma to an unsuccessful BH. It has to be applied to a successful BH where there is still room for the tests to be conducted, or even to new BH.

In the case of old BH, the empty NP would be able to gather birds after the aroma is sprayed. No other aroma must be used prior to this to eliminate other uncertainties.

In the case of new BH, that is easy. The birds, due to their gregarious nature, would again populate the area where the aroma is sprayed.

The beauty of this is that you don't even need CCTV to confirm this because just by the accumulation of bird droppings under those NP would be proof enough.

As for the simultaneous testing of various aroma, I am not for it. Each test should be done using just 1 aroma on a set of NP. Other aromas can be applied to a different region in the BH using another set of NPs. The good thing is if aroma works, we can tell the difference in efficacy between the types of aromas. If it doesn't work, then the pattern of bird droppings will not be seen. Of course, CCTV videos would even be better.

Thank you all so far for the various contributions. I can prepare a few BHs from friends and my own for the test. Some of the BHs has more than 2000 ebn and some are new.

Participants can also volunteer their own BH for this project. I am waiting for the aroma promoters to come forward with confidence. No hearsay, no testimony, just PURE SCIENTIFIC experiment where the results can be repeated anywhere provided the same test methods are applied.

Prize winner of RM10K is still up for grabs. It is time to walk the talk.

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Added on December 24, 2010, 3:08 pmPak Hen,

You are most welcome to stipulate the conditions needed for this test. You can choose your own BH, which series of NP, when to do it etc. I just want to see bird droppings below the NPs, better still together with video.

If success, the RM10k is yours. That simple.



This post has been edited by coolandy: Dec 24 2010, 03:08 PM

That's not a bad idea to have independent testers. For that to succeed, cooperation from aroma providers is compulsory. We need to separate myths from facts.

With more ideas, I hope to be able to come up with a foolproof test method.

I would like to get one thing straight here. I do not benefit in any way except for gaining knowledge. I do not gain any monetary benefits.

My reward of RM5,000.00 and other contributor of RM5,000 makes the total RM10,000. It is my way of contributing to this industry which has helped me too. If anyone wants to top up the fund, you all are most welcome. I cannot pledge for others. I can only guarantee my contribution of RM5k. Others are just pledges until the money is received and deposited with a trusted 3rd party. I need volunteers.

I will eventually come up with the rules and conditions for this test after getting the feedback from you all. Let us work together for the benefit of this industry.

I would also like to ask one simple question just for comparison. If I ask you all if ants like sugar, surely you all can come up with many ways to test this statement, right?

Similarly, do the birds like a certain aroma? We will find out. Anybody willing to be moderator, preferably from the east coast of Malaysia? See Seng, Jeff, Jahaniwalit are a few names that comes to my mind.

Active participation from aroma promoters is sorely needed for credibility. It is simple enough to purchase the products and conduct the tests myself but the results could be disputed by the aroma promoters by giving a 1001 reasons if unsuccessful. How to make this test foolproof?

Come on comrades. Let's do it.

I reread some previous postings by Tan, Bencai & eiou228 regarding raising the reward to RM50,000 & RM100,000. Aiyoh, I don't have that kind of moneylah. I am not millionaire. You all don't need to come. Send me an official sealed and signed sample. We will get a neutral 3rd party to be moderator. So you can cut travel costs. Let Fedex do the travelling!






This post has been edited by coolandy: Dec 25 2010, 01:22 AM

Wow, 10k not a lot? Spent so much on parties? Well, I certainly think RM10k is significant. RM10k is 3 month's wages for a new lawyer. Y.ou are most welcome to chip in another RM10k. Maybe we can leave the $ to WW for safekeeping

Anyway, Sifu don't have to come. Just need their endorsement.

They might not participate because scared of losing face in case their aromas don't work as claimed.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to all.

This post has been edited by coolandy: Dec 25 2010, 08:13 AM

Looks like we are moving forward. I will try my best to come up with a little write up on objectives of test, methodology etc.

Please send me as many ideas as possible. Even if the idea is against this test, I will hold no grudge against you.

So aroma promoters, please participate.

WW, you wanna be moderator? I would be most happy to have you on board. In fact, we need somebody to hold the deposit in trust so that nobody can accuse me of bulls@@@ting.

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Added on December 25, 2010, 6:40 pmThe beauty of this test is if the aroma fails, there is no penalty!

This post has been edited by coolandy: Dec 25 2010, 06:40 PM

bmanz,

How much deposit do u think must come from aroma promoter and will be forfeited if the aroma fails?

Extravagant claims MUST be supported by indisputable FACTS.

Imagine in an auditorium or theater, the expected show is great, the lighting and sound are perfect. The seats will be filled up soon but the best seats will definitely be booked and taken up first in advance.

The NPs in a successful BH is not unlike the seats mentioned above. If some of the NPs have been sprayed with aroma, then it will the best seats in the BH. If the aroma works, surely the NPs that has been sprayed will be populated with birds. A SOLID proof is obtained when the birds populate the NPs in a pattern consistent with the aroma application.

So Coolandy RM5k, APR RM5k. So far RM10k is guaranteed as prize money. Tuckfook may want to pledge again for credibility. No compulsion.

Remember this: A SOLID proof is obtained when the birds populate the NPs in a pattern consistent with the aroma application. This will be the true challenge.

Whether the BHs for test is new, old, successful or otherwise, the NPs that has been sprayed with aroma will be the NPs of CHOICE by the birds if the aroma truly works.

In the animal kingdom, the drive to make love often makes the animal go into a mating frenzy when the correct chemical substances (pheromones, hormones) is present. So can the swiftlet aroma back up their claims that the birds will make love and build more nests?

So the aromas will be sprayed as

NP1: Right Half
NP2: Left Half
NP3: Right Half
NP4: Left Half
NP5: Right Half
NP6: Left Half

If the birds populated 4 of 6 NPs in a pattern like above, I would consider that the aroma is a success.

Tan2020, nobody, I repeat nobody, is saying that for a BH to succeed, other factors are not important. You keep on harping on them. We don't want to complicate things. Just want aroma sellers to justify their claims.
Pak Hen, are you interested? James Chong has been silent. Others?????

What do you all think. All feedback welcome.

Tentative prize money is RM20k?

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Added on December 26, 2010, 11:28 amFor all those who have successful BH with or withour aroma, please come and join in the fun. Let us pay back to society.

This post has been edited by coolandy: Dec 26 2010, 11:28 AM

bmanz,

I have never asked for any aroma formulation from anybody. I have also never made any formulation for my own BH. Others however have asked me on how to make aromas and I have given them on what I thought would be theingrdients if they want to go ahead.

Samples of aromas have been sent to me before for testing by a friend a few years ago and I would like to keep the results confidential.

For the information of all, I would not like to adopt a non-confrontational approach in this project. If anybody is offended, I would like to apologize unreservedly. The project would take place I hope.

This post has been edited by coolandy: Dec 26 2010, 02:37 PM

Yes Cergau, that was posted on James Blog.

I don't know who he was referring to asking for the formula and it definitely wasn't me.

There are many others promoting aroma and this will separate the men from the boys, I hope.

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Added on December 26, 2010, 2:45 pmThe Scientific Method

The Scientific Method is the way scientists learn and study the world around them. The basis of the scientific method is observing and gathering background information, asking a question, forming an hypothesis (or an educated guess about the answer to your question), and then trying to come up with the answers by collecting and analyzing data.

We use the scientific method all the time. For instance:

* Observe: The TV won't turn on.
* Think of a question: What is wrong with the TV?
* Predict the answer (hypothesize): The TV won't turn on because the cord is unplugged.
* Plan the experiment: I will check to make sure the plug is in the outlet.
* Collect data: The TV is unplugged.
* Analyze results: The TV won't turn on because the cord is unplugged.

The scientific method is often divided into steps. This is helpful for organizing the process, but keep in mind that the key element of the scientific method is testing the hypothesis. In other words, can you prove that your hypothesis is wrong?







A good scientist is observant and curious about what is happening around him/her. This step also includes reading and studying what others have done in the past because scientific knowledge is cumulative.

Spend time observing and exploring before coming up with a question to investigate.


The scientist then raises a question about what (s)he sees going on. The question raised must have a “simple,” concrete answer that can be obtained by performing an experiment.






The hypothesis is a tentative answer to the question based on your observations and explorations. When forming an hypothesis, remember that a hypothesis is a question that can be tested by an experiment.

It may be easier to write a hypothesis if you use an "if-then" format. For example: "If magpies have an aggressive nature, then there should be fewer birds feeding when magpies are present than when magpies are not present."


Plan an experiment in which you can test your hypothesis. Make a step-by-step list of what you will do to answer your question.

* Select only one thing to change in each experiment. Things that can be changed are called variables.
* Change something that will help you test your hypothesis.
* The list must tell how you will change this one thing.
* The list must explain how you will measure the amount of change.
* Each type of experiment needs a "control" for comparison so that you can see what the change actually did.




Observations can be written descriptions of what you noticed during an experiment, or problems encountered. Keep careful notes of everything you do and everything that happens.




Summarize what happened. This could be in the form of a table of numerical data or graphs. It could also be a written statement of what occurred during the experiments.

Using the trends in your experimental data and your experimental observations, try to answer your original question. Did your experiment support your hypothesis?

If your hypothesis was not supported, you need to think about what might have gone wrong. Maybe your hypothesis was incorrect and you need to make further observations and conduct more research (return to Step 1). Or maybe your experiment design needs some reworking (return to Step 4). Don't be discouraged! The Scientific Method is a cycle that helps us better understand the world around us.

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Added on December 26, 2010, 2:47 pmThe scientific method is not a recipe for making original discoveries or inventions; it does not prescribe the pathway that scientists must follow to attain success. The goal of the scientific method is to ascertain whether a hypothesis is true to some degree. Indeed, the nucleus of the scientific method is the confrontation of an idea (hypothesis) with the facts it refers to, regardless of the source of the idea in question. In sum, the scientific method is a means for checking hypotheses for truth rather than for finding facts or inventing ideas

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/scientific-method#ixzz19CKXDGM0

This post has been edited by coolandy: Dec 26 2010, 02:47 PM

I have yet to be contacted by any teams sponsoring aroma.

We will work together to formulate the objectives and guidelines. I assure you all of my fullest cooperation. I prefer to do the test but if someone else is interested, it is acceptable to me if certain conditions are met.

Happy New Year 2011 to all.

Pak Hen,

You are a true gentleman, very knowledgeable and humble.

Wish you success and good health always.

That's the beauty of an open forum. You encounter people from all cross-sections of life. There are so many hidden talented people amongst us.

For the Aroma Challenge, it seems that there will be no takers. I thought that through an open forum, many ideas will be generated and something conclusive can come out of this. The next course of action is uncertain. Doing it privately has less fun and credibility than involving more members.

A Practical and Scientific Guide to Successful Swiftlet Farming

Chapter 3 Breeding Biology of Aerodramus fuciphagus


In general in animals that practice polyandry (Polyandry is a type of mating system where females mate with more than one male during a breeding season; having more than one husband at the same time), the females will secrete a type of chemicals called pheromones when they are fertile. The pheromones will cause the males to go into a mating frenzy. Males will go on for days on end without food, fighting with other males for the right to mate with the female.

The majority of pheromones are very species-specific, that is, it only attracts the male of the same species. However, in this amazing world, there are known cases where pheromones of one species attract the males of another species. Some orchids release pheromones that manage to fool bees to mate with their flowers and help in pollination.

Birds have a good olfactory system (sense of smell) but their main mating attractors are sound and visual displays by the males. Little research has been conducted into whether the females secrete pheromones.

Most birds have a uropygidial gland at the base of the tail which secretes oil used in preening the feathers. Other secretory glands are the sebaceous and anal glands. If pheromones are ever present at all, it is most likely to be produced from those glands.


3.1 Pheromones in Swiftlet Farming.
Aerodramus fuciphagus are monogamus and paired for life. Two eggs are laid per clutch and going by the norms in the avian world, it is safe to conclude that one is female and the other male. Though monogamous, they do commonly engage in extra-pair copulation or spouse cheating but this behavior is not thought to be connected to pheromones.

In fact there are no known monogamous animals that use pheromones to attract their mates.

3.2 Artificial Solutions in Swiftlet Farming
Attempts have been made by many swiftlet farmers to simulate the smell of caves or successful farms to attract swiftlets by the application of various formulations. The solutions are normally filtered fermented liquid from a concoction of blended bird nests, seaweeds and albumin of duck eggs. Some preservatives like sodium benzoate are also added to extend the shelf-life.

Ammonium bicarbonate solutions which release ammonia gas are also used frequently. This method is not recommended because high concentration of ammonia gas is a health hazard.

There are also portions made from the distillation of swiftlet feathers and bird droppings. If pheromones plays a role in the mating behavior of swiftlets, this method has the most probability of success.

A lot of experiments and double-blind tests must be carried out before any claims can be made to the efficacy of the solutions. Repeatability must be a common denomination for making those claims. As it is, many farmers have spent a lot of money on the portions with dubious success.

The most common method to create the right aroma for the BH is the copious application of fresh bird droppings. If pheromones are present in the anal glands, then this method should be one of the most cost effective in attracting birds and has been widely adopted by bird farmers.

In some cases, the droppings are soaked in water inside containers. The resultant smell from this method is very pungent. Though smelly to humans, the birds seem to like it.

*****************************************************************************************************************************************************


Above is part of a section I have written for my book. It is still in the draft stage. Don't know when it will be completed. I will elaborate a little further below.

Swiftlets spent a lot of time playing in the rain. Their ability to do so without soiling their feathers is because their feathers are extremely water-resistant. So are many species of ducks. Chicken feathers are less waterproof.

From CCTV footages, Afs are seldom seen to preen their feathers. How do their feathers become so water-resistant?

Extracting oils from the feathers will involve distillation. It is not rocket science though those without basic chemistry knowledge will find this challenge daunting. The apparatus involved can be bought openly in the open market and a competent science student (SPM level) should be able to do it. The feathers will have to be soaked in a mild alcohol (methanol, ethanol) solution to dissolve the oils. After filtering out the detritus, the remaining solution is distilled and the distillate will contain the oils needed though the quantity will be very little.

How effective will the oils be in attracting swiftlets?

As mentioned above, the anal glands also secrete chemicals! You can also distill the solution from the bird droppings and see if the resulting distillate will attract the birds? Successful BHs has a certain smell. It is kind of sweet, not the pungent type associated with “rotten” bird droppings. Sometimes, I wish I were a dog so that I can identify the different type of smells present in a successful BH.

My take on the aroma thingy is that it will not make the birds go into a mating frenzy. To provide a comfortable environment that smells good to the birds is possible and will need to be tested.

There you go my friends. Just my little contribution, I hope. If I am wrong, you all are welcome to comment. Absolutely no hard feelings.

WW, you should give your dog more freedom to spread it's genes.

Just my 2 sen.

This post has been edited by coolandy: Dec 29 2010, 11:46 AM

That month is the start of the breeding season. Out of every 4 months only about 1 month is the start of the breeding season and you will see an explosion in nests. The other 3 months will have a much slower growth rate.

You BH can be considered ok.

Just my 2 sen. Surely WW can elaborate further.

This post has been edited by coolandy: Dec 29 2010, 10:52 AM

AFs have this multi-brood character. It will try to breed as often as possible. This character is often exploited by man where the nests are removed before the eggs are laid, or nests removed with eggs and the birds will make a new nest and lay eggs as soon as possible.

The whole cycle takes a bout 4 months if left undisturbed and with the right conditions. From my shallow knowledge, there are birds that breeds seasonally and there are those that breed throughout the year. The timing can be altered slightly due to various reasons.

Tuckfook, the use of "vaginal extracts" from domesticated pigs during your wild boar hunt demonstrates the power of pheromones. How I wish we could have this for Afs?

Another 2 sen from me. If wrong, sorrylah.



This post has been edited by coolandy: Dec 29 2010, 10:19 PM