The modern world is a place in which faith and reason are totally separate. Faith has its place, reason has its place. Schools are secularized, so are many hospitals. In short, faith and reason are seen as incompatible. It is believed that in order to individually excel, both need to go their separate way.

However, this view is very new. In the Middle Ages, this was not the case. While most view the Middle Ages as dark and chaotic, this was a period of intense illumination. The works of Aristotle and Muslim philosophers were rediscovered and spread in Europe. Universities first appeared during these times. Scholars wrote extensively on philosophy, science, theology, astronomy, and mathematics. Yet, we owe all this to the Islamic world, since they preserved this knowledge as Rome fell. We owe it to the Catholic Church, to who translated and copied this knowledge when the Islamic world declined.

Those people believed that faith and reason were, not only compatible, but senseless if separated. How can knowledge and values be separated? Are we now, after abandoning this world, living in a world in which people “know the price of everything, but the value of nothing?” (Oscar Wilde).

Well, in my point of view (as a Muslim) faith and reason cannot be separated. So, when someone said "a modern world is a place in which faith & reason are totally separated" that is not an absolute statement which explain the present modern world we are living now. The koran taught us to search for knowledge (the power of reasoning) as it makes one's status above frm others not only in the eyes of human but also our Creator. At the same time, to use it wisely according to faith. For instance there was a famous group of Muslim group called the 'Muktazilah' which depend solely on the power of reasoning. They said that ppl in the hereafter will not be able to see God since our Creator is not confine with time & space while we as the creatures are bound to it. Therefore, we cannot see God since since we are bound to time and space.

Then, emerged a famous Muslim philosopher named Al-Ghazali arguing about this matter. Since Al-Ghazali is a sunni Muslim (Muslim that use both the power of reasoning and faith) answering them. He said according to our logic and limited knowledge that we have now, we are sure to answer that way but that's not it. If we can conclude that this so called Allah (which means God, Creator) is powerful and almighty it's not a problem to Him to make us instead no longer confine to space and time. The logic behind it? Hereafter is a place where we are ageless and the place of hell and heaven is indeed not to be bounded by time and space (that's why heaven and hell is said to be eternity) or else we could have find it by now.

The lesson we can learn frm here is that we cannot depend solely on reason, so is faith. Muslim are taught to be wise and use their power of reasoning simultaneously with faith. One cannot just use faith solely like praying to God and ask for help without doing nothing! that's called stupid. So is reasoning, if we keep using reasoning solely we would end up thinking that we are GOD OURSELVES since other creatures doesnt posses the same intelligent humankind possessed and start playing God in the end.

The battle of reasoning and faith have started even before the creation of humankind. Erk, sorry for typing too much u guys might as well got bored reading all these @_@ i'll tell more if anyone wants to hear about the battle of reasoning and faith later on

the problem is faith often demand we abandon reason. how many religion welcome skeptical view of their god and holy books during their religious gathering?

knowledge and value should always be seperate, knowledge are universal, gravity work the same way everywhere in the world, but moral value are different everywhere in the world.



This post has been edited by robertngo: Apr 11 2010, 09:45 PM

The following event pretty much sum up the topic.

Faith is to commit oneself to act based on sufficient experience to warrant belief, but without absolute proof. To have faith involves an act of will. For example, many people saw Blondin walk across the gorge below Niagara Falls on a tightrope, and believed (on the basis of the evidence of their own eyes) that he was capable of carrying a man on his back safely across. But only his manager Harry Colcord had enough faith to allow himself to be carried.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blondin

While almost everyone has good reasons (they saw that happened many time before) to believe that this act is doable, only his manager Harry had faith to allow himself to be carried.

Although faith and knowledge are not absolutely separate, but they can determine each other
faith determines the knowledge, OR
knowledge determines the faith

people believed this Blondin that he could walk over niagara falls over and over. But why did not they allow themselves to be carried?
It all goes down the the Murphy's Law and most importantly their own experience.

People have sat on different chairs many times, commonly without the doubt that the chair will support their weight and stay intact. They placed more faith In the chair than Blondin, and they have experienced enough with chairs to do so. People know that if you fall off the tightrope, you will be dead meat without the safety net. Most importantly the person him/herself has never experienced the ordeal before and therefore succumbing to the murphy's law , thinking " he might fall" subconsciously or consciously, they will not risk their lives for a minute on television. In this case Harry Colcord has enough knowledge about Blondin to put faith in him, filling up the rest of the gap with bravery.


This post has been edited by Keith321: Apr 12 2010, 03:35 AM

Faith and reason are separate. I believe in God by faith, but I can’t prove it to an atheist. It does not mean that I don’t use reason. On the issue of God, I chose faith and reject reason. On other issues I may chose reason over faith. It is in the individual’s preference when to choose one over the other.

Erm, well actually u can use reason to believe in God faceless. That's why we are taught to use faith and reason simultaneously in the first place. Those who follow religion blindly will always end up astray from the right path and use religion as a tool in the end by interpreting it according to whatever they want since they dont know the why and how correctly.

The power of reason can eventually strengthen one's faith faceless try look more into quantum physic and study more about our galaxy. You'll find the answer and beat any atheist u want since the answer is obvious. But remember, if they doesnt want to believe it, let them be. There's no harm in believing one.

before you say anything please provide evidence to show how does quantum physics support god...

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 12 2010, 01:28 PM

From my understanding, it's impossible that the universe exist the way it it 'coincidentally' or 'accidentally' with so many hole that would leak to differences of matter and existence of the present. To make it easily to be understand, read this:

Albert Einstein was struck by the wondrous orderliness of the world.

You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way . . . . [T]he kind of order created by Newton's theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the "miracle" which is being constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands.
(Albert Einstein, Letters to Solovine (New York: Philosophical Library, 1987, 131.)

To summarize, for life to exist, we need an orderly (and by implication, intelligible) universe. Order at many different levels is required. For instance, to have planets that circle their stars, we need Newtonian mechanics operating in a three-dimensional universe. For there to be multiple stable elements of the periodic table to provide a sufficient variety of atomic "building blocks" for life, we need atomic structure to be constrained by the laws of quantum mechanics. We further need the orderliness in chemical reactions that is the consequence of Boltzmann's equation for the second law of thermodynamics. And for an energy source like the sun to transfer its life-giving energy to a habitat like Earth, we require the laws of electromagnetic radiation that Maxwell described.

Our universe is indeed orderly, and in precisely the way necessary for it to serve as a suitable habitat for life. The wonderful internal ordering of the cosmos is matched only by its extraordinary economy. Each one of the fundamental laws of nature is essential to life itself. A universe lacking any of the laws shown would almost certainly be a universe without life. Many modern scientists, like the mathematicians centuries before them, have been awestruck by the evidence for intelligent design implicit in nature's mathematical harmony and the internal consistency of the laws of nature. Australian astrophysicist Paul Davies declares:

"All the evidence so far indicates that many complex structures depend most delicately on the existing form of these laws. It is tempting to believe, therefore, that a complex universe will emerge only if the laws of physics are very close to what they are....The laws, which enable the universe to come into being spontaneously, seem themselves to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design. If physics is the product of design, the universe must have a purpose, and the evidence of modern physics suggests strongly to me that the purpose includes us."
(Paul Davies, Superforce (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1984, 243.)



This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 12 2010, 12:19 PM

It hints, quatum prove nothing for now...U should start read more about Stephen Hawkins books.....Physics fall under the study of physical existence, but doesn't mean we can't get any hint from there. Science discovery is based on our hints, our intuition and of coz our willingness to approach new way of thinking. How can we know how big is the sun if we don't even take a closer look??

This post has been edited by communist892003: Apr 12 2010, 12:28 PM

quantum physics does not tell you there's god,it's people that want to interpret the findings of science as evidence that support their personal belief so as to reduce the conflict between these two separate entities,it's easy and convenient to substitute god to the wonderings such as 'who is driving the conditions that eventually leads to evolution?','the atomic structure is so intricate,who made it?','the universe is so finely tuned,who did that?' etc,i can do that too,'god is driving evolution','god caused the big bang',etc... wow miraculous isn't it?god is behind all these!? but does science really tell you that god made and was the one that drove the process?the answer is NO...
I study science too but does it strengthen my faith?the answer is NO as well,instead i find it more and more convincing that god is not necessarily needed to explain everything and probably does not exist or absolutely does not exist,of course the study of philosophy does contribute a big part to my unbelief...
the reason i say this is purely on the ground to clear up your apparent misleading info that study science leads to a stronger faith,but then again,if i have to put a conclusion,i'd say it all comes down to individual to determine what's best that suits them,it's fine if you want to substitute god into the equation(that doesn't mean it's the truth),but does science really make one cling on to their faith more firmly?the answer is not necessarily...

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 12 2010, 06:42 PM

Perhaps u should started to define your god here. God can be like an animal, human or even stone. If u suggested quantum proved nothing about God is an animal, then u probably right. Faith depends on where u wan to put

This post has been edited by communist892003: Apr 12 2010, 12:45 PM

Yup, it depends on how u relate it. Like i said before, there's no harm in believing one. If u prefer to look it that way, so be it. No one is forcing u. Im telling faceless how we can actually strengthen our faith through such discoveries. I respect u for your opinions and for being open minded thx. Btw, the answer for your question, it's for us. U have right for yours, so do we. Your statement "i say this is purely on the ground to clear up your apparent misleading info that study science leads to a stronger faith" somehow sounds like u owned science and nobody can interpret it any other way since it's contradict with ur belief i presume?

no,in your previous reply you sounded like you could defeat an atheist by using science+faith,i'm telling you you're wrong if you really think this way...

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 12 2010, 05:38 PM

define god? the answer is simple. God to me is the Creator. That's all is enough for me. Doesnt matter how he/she/it/they look like I just want to believe that the world, especially our universe is created by something not accidentally or coincidentally happened. That's why i respect other religions and i dun mind them having different paths because at least we share something common which is to believe in the Creator and how we should be thanking them for creating us One thing for sure, our Creator is surely doesnt resemble with any of their creations.

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Added on April 12, 2010, 1:01 pmOh im sorry about that then if u found that offensive >_> just that faceless said something about to believe without base on reason and he said he cant do anything about proving god to an atheis. Thus, i told him what i knew. In order to strengthen our faith that's all and im wrong again for thinking that way? i guess the truth all lies within u then since i cant believe what i want

This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 12 2010, 01:01 PM

I just hope life and this reality isn't a big joke, because i don't get it.

no,what i was trying to say was faith(take it as religion in this instance) is a weak spot,it's easily refutable,vulnerable to attack and often tends to lead to your defeat whenever you want to run a debate with atheists...

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 12 2010, 05:39 PM

U can define God??? That is the funniest joke i ever heard today. Like u said, god transcend the mere physical existence, and science is our way to understand it. So if u could define god, perhaps god is fall under your intellectual knowledge and just another fact in reality.
So my point is, God is huge topic, bigger than it could fix inside your brain.

This post has been edited by communist892003: Apr 12 2010, 01:14 PM

Im fine by that there's a time a Buddhist approach me and said hey u must be an idiot for believing in hell and heaven. But i just keep quite and talk to him slowly frm my point of view. I dont mind being criticize since it make us improve ourselves frm time to time. That's one the purpose i enter this forum, i want to know more about each others view and know my own weakness rather than keeping myself in my own shell and believe everything just because other ppl believe. My religion encourage me to study regardless of what is it about because knowledge is to be shared. If we keep staying in our own shell we'll never improve.

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Added on April 12, 2010, 1:26 pmIm fine by that thanks for sharing ur view on God.

This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 12 2010, 01:26 PM

Blaze-hit,

I think now you can understand what I meant when I say "I cant convince an atheist". Thanks Clever d*** you had proved my point.

By the way, God as a creator is a bias difinition. I do not know much about Hindu except for what I learnt in school. They have Vishnu the Creator, Siva the Destroyer, and Rama the Benevolent. Form a muslim's prespective they are the same person as reflected in the names of Allah. Hey even faith has it own dispute monothesis versus polythesis. Imagine trying to convince an atheist

just to add one thing,blaze_hit,you're entitled to have faith but it is a personal belief after all,there are more arguments against god that you can ever imagined,so do beg in mind that god is not true de facto when you insert it to explain the unknowns of science...

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 12 2010, 03:43 PM

how is it possible to use science to understand god, a supernatural being. science only deal with the natural world, what can be observe and measured.

Reason always prevailed over faith. In fact, faith has caused enough trouble to humanity because it divides people into "Us" Vs "Them" mentality.

A person of faith may think this way, "My faith is correct, therefore I will go to paradise." "Other faith is wrong, they will be burn eternally in hell fire". That shows the illogicality of faith no matter from whichever angle you look at it.

"God" is not defined as some old guy up there overlooking at us, intervening into our daily affair. Rather, a scientific "God", the single principle underlying creation, the Law and Order of this universe that subjugate all scientific rules under it. If you follow the scientific rules, you will be safe. let me give you an analogy, we human has suffered from natural disasters for thousands of years. Did God played dice with us? No! We human invented scientific means to evade, predict and control the damage caused by natural disasters. In short, we progress and mature , exploring the scientific law to overcome natural disasters. Therefore, in modern nation such as Japan, they suffered a very minimal casualties as a result of earthquake because they are prepared to combat, resist and avoid the severity of the earthquake through the power of science. There are still many laws of science that yet to be discovered, this unchangeable rules can be categorized as "God".

Can you count how many times scientists(Albert Einstein being one) have been misconstrued by the mainstream and the religious types as having accepted 'their' god. SO many times. It is perhaps for the best that they avoid the term god to not confuse those with a lesser understanding of what they(the scientists) are talking about.

Recently, they spread a video in youtube about how Einstein's response to his atheistic teacher during his childhood. That video is so fake and it ended with a bogus statement like this: " Reinstating religious education in school". Some people exploited Einstein theistic belief to their own agenda. Einstein's theism or Deism has nothing to do with the conventional religions. His faith is in reason.

This post has been edited by kenmirzz: Apr 12 2010, 02:59 PM

just because you believe in something (nothing wrong with that) doesnt mean its true. and "because i say so" is not the most convincing argument in the world (unless backed with threats of violence)

glad u understand then ive deliver and tell what ive been told. My job is done. Glad to know u all, hope i can learn more. In the end the truth is just matter of opinions..

how can the truth be a matter of opinions, then there is be multiple version of the truth because everyone will have their own opinion.

you it is you who failed to understand. truth is truth regardless of opinions. the solar system is heliocentric despite popular opinion in the middle ages that it is geocentric.

and truth can only be discovered by using reasoning and analysis, it is never through faith that truth is discovered.

reasoning is "xxx happens because of yyy, zzz, aaa, and bbb"
faith is "xxx will happen because i say so"

Faith and reason can be separated. But there is no need.

Just like a person who works with the left brain and denying the right brain when both sides can very well work together.

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Added on April 13, 2010, 12:54 amYou're not looking deeply enough if your version of truth still lies in the realm of opinions.

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Added on April 13, 2010, 1:02 amYou are right because truth is never meant to be the result of faith. But only through faith would you even begin reasoning in the first place.


This post has been edited by teongpeng: Apr 13 2010, 01:02 AM

No,blade-hitz,a truth is not defined by opinions,a cat will not become a dog just because one says it's a dog,that is faith,not truth...

so someone who's faithless is brainless as well? since they cant even begin to reason...

do u reason without having faith in your facts? lol dude?

all endeavours begin with faith. all.


This post has been edited by teongpeng: Apr 13 2010, 01:55 AM

hey wait,which faith you're talking about?the one dictated by religion or what?

eh...this isnt religion thread la bro.

I'm talking about all sort of faith.

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Added on April 13, 2010, 2:18 amok ok thousand apologies. i didnt read the first page or what TS wrote at all....THIS IS a religious thread...more or less.

This post has been edited by teongpeng: Apr 13 2010, 02:19 AM

there is a difference bro...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 13 2010, 02:27 AM

eh? when it comes to truth for instance, when i believe A is truth but it's doesnt mean it's a truth for X. The same goes for X, if he or she believe B is true doest mean it's true for me. This is what opinions all about. That's why i said truth is matter of opinions since ppl accept truth as what is convenience for them. I might say theory of evolution is not perfect, got flaws so i dont believe in it. But X says he/she believe in the theory since it's the only explanation (or option?) that sounds logical for them. Thus, they try their best to defend their theory no matter how many flaws is it (so are we according to them since we are 'brainless' for believing in faith). Therefore, like i said earlier it's base on person's opinions. One may not accept truth since it's not for them and one may accept truth since it's for them.

In science,evidence matters the most,a proven scientific fact will not change it's validity simply because one holds a strong faith that tells him it's false,unless the objections are backed by evidence...

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 13 2010, 03:34 PM

and did i said i would prefer not to believe because of faith? I made my point clear there that i dont believe simply because it have many flaws. The flaws are scientific evidences. In term of "truth is matter of opinion" even though u know there's flaws exist in such theory but u still want to believe in it since it's the most logical theory that can explain the current situation (according to u) but not for me since i believe in other theory. Thus, u have evidences for yours and i have evidences for mine. That's why im being open minded unlike those who suddenly jump into conclusion saying others are wrong just because they believe the truth lies within them alone.

This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 13 2010, 02:03 PM

wat the f***??? u blind kah???Faith lah....not religious faith. Why it had always something to with with religion.

I agree with what all you said to cleverdick

a scientific theory is not only backed by evidence,but it also fulfills one of the most fundamental principles of science,i.e.it's FALSIFIABLE,it can be proven wrong if counter evidence is found thereby leading scientists to abandon the theory,faith on the other hand is entirely unfalsifiable,the proponents of such ideology inclined to make unlimited predictions,almost not a single discovery can prove it false,and just in case you wonder,most of the objections come from creationists,their discoveries do not receive recognition in scientific community mainly because they do not adhere to scientific methodology,unable to meet the fundamental principles of science,make constant vacuous statements,and turns out most of the times they are involved in forgery...
----------------------
turns out that I've misconstrued your gist,my fault...
back to the point,if one wants to resort to a third party explanation,it has to based on evidence,not lead by opaque reasons...
I hope this clarifies my stance...

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 14 2010, 03:28 AM

What if one day all that we understand and perceive about reality turn out to be just delusion and joke even it make sense to us???? Don't stop , have faith that it wouldn't


jUSt DO IT!!!

sorry, accidentally used my friend's ID while using his laptop

This post has been edited by rndm: Apr 13 2010, 02:40 PM

Is that some idea from that Turkish creationist guy called Oktar?

as long u got the point then it's settled cleverdick it's not that i dont believe in science and i appreciate ur explanation there (indeed i love science even when i was a kid) just that when it comes to forgery, not only matter of faith but science also involved. Just look at how many frauds made by scientist and archeologist just to prove themselves right? It's against the principle of science right? but they still did it just to show how true they are regardless of whatever it's need to be done (making false evidences for instance) as long it support the theory made.

just how many frauds are there in archeology compare with legitimate finding? one in a hundred, on in thousand. and it is the archeology community themself that expose those fraud. because in science your finding in to be open to examination by other scientist.

exactly...

Those fraud findings were always part of some religious belief. Remember about the "discovery" of giant sized skeleton and the subsequent widespread of the findings throughout the Internet? It's because the mumbo jumbo of ancient human being big in size, later shrinking into the present size. Now, that's faith influencing science to make it agreeable with preconceived notion.

Funny it does not work the other way around. One believer examine the other believer. With many believer it becomes accepted. LOL

Exactly, because most of the researcher know to think better than others religious people who consisted much of the population. However, this does not imply to cleverdick who is an atheist instead pioneer....

U should stop shooting people who wan to learn like BlazeHit....U are killing his enthusiastic of curiosity..I guess that is why religious people just hate us for this reason

This post has been edited by communist892003: Apr 13 2010, 04:14 PM

I apologize if I over-reacted...

I cannot imagine this world consist of one religion. Is good to have more, so that we don't act according to what we think is right.

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Added on April 13, 2010, 4:24 pmI don't get you

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Added on April 13, 2010, 4:26 pmThis post has been edited by communist892003: Apr 13 2010, 04:26 PM

here,read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_Oktar

Nope, pls i demand no apology in fact what is told by kenmirzz is true. I check about the pictures of those gigantic bones years ago and it's obviously fake that's why i dun argue over such thing. That's why when i saw one here im surprised to see such ppl exist. Still, that doesnt mean ppl should stop just because they failed. Thanks communist892003 for understanding. I wish to learn more. About how many frauds, i would say many robertngo. Your ratio of frauds made by archeologist 1/100 and 1/1000 seems to be exaggerated.

This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 13 2010, 04:31 PM

I was replying to Rndn post about everything is not real and could be illusion. That idea is propagated by creationist Adnan Oktar who seek to disprove evolutionary biology with his creationism crap. Well, his version of creationism though.

This post has been edited by kenmirzz: Apr 13 2010, 06:17 PM

mind to elaborate more?i'd like to see more of your baseless argument...

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 13 2010, 08:46 PM

That is sarcasm that i wrote specifically to you. It would be better u read some metaphysics or epistemology. The fact that our eyes perceive that the land is flat , but does not implied that earth is flat. The fact that knowledge said whatever it said, doesn't mean it would be necessary be the truth.

This post has been edited by communist892003: Apr 13 2010, 09:59 PM

this notion is vacuous in the face of concrete scientific evidence,and the logic itself is flawed,it essentially implies something like this---our knowledge tells us that there is no flying spaghetti monster,but is it true?

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 13 2010, 10:16 PM

faith does not come into play. i do not believe my facts to be true, i know my facts to be true within the boundary set.

The lives of an average human will consist of both reality and illusion. What we perceive as reality could be illusion or wad we perceive illusion could be reality.
Some people would want live with illusion (which is their reality) if it makes them happier and more productive, and shuns the harmful reality. They are very different from realists. Some chose to believe in the existence of god since the whole salvation thingy would make them happier, and why not? Its not like anyone is coming along with hard evidence showing tat omnipotent being does not exist.

Realists demand reality in their lives, although they still live and believed into some illusions. But reality does not really begets happiness tat often. But being realistic is not being skeptical, its 2 different traits. Some of them even demand 100% facts in their lives, which they will never get of course.

As people always say "ignorance is a bliss". And people with lots of this "bliss" live happier and longer. Why demand the facts if it makes you miserable? If you could live with the illusion and be happy throughout your life? That's the way of non - realists.

Actually there is a big problem to the idea of "let them be as long as they are happy". Normally people live their lives the way they like but in a close society we have today, that is a problem. It also depends on how far from reality one willing to tolerate, say your neighbor practicing voodoo and black magic because she believes it is real. But that makes her happy and you unhappy. So one day you decide to pull her over and explain that while she can believe anything she likes, you would like her to keep her daily ritual quiet and less visible. Extend that problem to an active black magic practitioners community that goes around on special day shouting and sprinkling magic dust. Would you then think let them be? What happen if your neighbor is elected to be the prime minister? Wouldn't that be scary?

Faith and knowledge are not mutually exclusive, no disagreement on this.

In Harry and Blondin case, Blondin had walked across the tightrope many time in earlier attempts alone successfully (this is so called knowledge, proof, reason). Although carrying a man on the back and perform the same act seems possible, however it never been done before, hence it takes faith for Harry to allow himself to be carried.

How did previous knowledge (walk alone on the tightrope successfully says three times) provide enough justification and could extrapolate that carrying another man on the shoulder would yield the same successful result?

In this example, no matters how many time (says 1000 time) that an alone act have been carried out successfully by Blondin, it can't provide enough evidence or proof to Harry that he would reach the other end successfully (two persons act). Will he know if Blondin would not be tired, not stable and all? He won't, he just have faith and believe in his friend.

Your example on chair is good too. People has faith that the chair they attempt to sit will support their weight even this is the first time they see such chair. In some rare scenarios, the chair does break and the people would fall over, I have seems this happened with my own eyes before.

Faith doesn't warrant the correctness of one's belief, as it is not based on absolute proof, just like the one sitting on a chair which break. The main point here is in many real life scenarios, we need to make decision and justification without solid proof (there is no such thing as we could reason, proof everything), but based on our experience, knowledge and also ..... some faith.

This post has been edited by nice.rider: Apr 15 2010, 11:58 AM

Then the black magic practitioner will be a fearsome leader. If she/he is unhappy, she/he will just curse you, and everybody will try to get rid of you because you are 'cursed'. Isn't that simple and efficient way to get rid of ppl and be in power?

The 'black magic practitioner' could be replace by Christian, Islam, Jew ... any religion you can think of. That is the power of religion, to unite ppl with the power of fear.

That leads me to the famous quote

The various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people as equally true; by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful.

Ed Gibbon.

Looks like human thinking has not changed much even after that. Only two things are certain/true in life, we are dying and income tax department are forever after our money If our thinking has not changed a lot over time, or else many would not easily being duped into cult ,religion ,direct sales cum ponzi scheme or pseudoscience.

ms

if human were that smart, long time ago we were already vacation in Mars sipping cocktail, or skydiving in Pandora planet. So just accept the fact human are easy to be manipulated and stupid.

Human can be both. Either to manipulate or being manipulate. We are stupid compare to our humility. We are smart compare to other animals.

there are no such comparison between human and animal in terms of reasoning skills. reason is only given to human by God and not to animal. animal only have instinct. they live only to fulfill their needs to continue their life. but for us human, we live to serve our purpose and worship to God.

but if the human cant use their own reason to distinguish between good and bad, they are no different than animal.

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Added on April 27, 2010, 8:30 ami agree.human mind has it own limitation.but human keep discovering and learning. and learning process is not something that is gifted.

This post has been edited by azerroes: Apr 27 2010, 08:30 AM

Try to compare it,
todays development of technology and so on is one impossible thingy to our ancestors few hundred years ago
Imagine what will ppl from hundred years ago think about a computer that can work by using only electric

Human do have limitation, but thats not up to us to decide how much they can do
I believe we wont know our possible potential by measuring

For now we can think human live in the mars is absurd/impossible/nonsense/dreaming/etc, who knows what happen N years later

When did god give this reasoning skills to human? 10K years ago? Or 10 million years ago?

As how Thomas Merton put it, “We can help one another to find out the meaning of life, no doubt. But in the last analysis the individual person is responsible for living his own life and for 'finding himself'.” Here are two famous quotes about Faith and Reason:

“Faith is best defined as expecting the best until the worst has been proved.”

— Gerald Ensley

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God, who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, has intended us to forgo their use.”

― Galileo Galilei (1564 - 1642)