It is impossible to debate religion scientifically. because no matter how much proof you have, as long as a person believe there is a god, there will be a god. science will NEVER be able to disprove that, since science will never be able to prove everything. (although it will prove a lot)
and on the same note, religion should stay out of scientific arguments because whatever religious arguments are brought to that discussion, they aren't scientifically valid. (like creationism)

The problem is, science changes too much (over time as new discoveries are made), while religion changes too little (or none at all). I stand on the side of science, but I wouldn't disprove god.

In theory, in order to witness the day Earth exists, we will need a time machine and the ability to survive the extreme energy sources of outer space, and recording a video of how Earth started to form, and how organisms began and evolved on Earth. Then and only then, I'm afraid we can't disprove God. (Ironically, if we are able to do all that, we are actually the GOD in our current frame of references! LOL!)

This is what Einstein said:
"Science without religion is BLIND"

I could be wrong, but my version of that would be "Science without humane values can be dangerous" (example: Nuclear energy used in a destructive way instead of productive). If being 'blind' = have no sight/ignorant of the consequences that might come, thus it's dangerous. Religion promotes humane values, as well as supernatural values and values that were formed at a time where technology is very limited and therefore formed with no regard to the level of information we have of the environment, specifically the Earth. We, as intelligent species on Earth with the ability to reason, should take the values from religion that are relevant to our social health as a whole.

This post has been edited by tzmmalaysia: Dec 3 2010, 05:58 PM

The actual quote is

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind -- Albert Einstein

But I agree with your view on this, here read this review.

It is known that Einstein, although of Jewish lineage, did not believe in any particular historical and divinely revealed religion. He did not speak of any particular religion when he made the preceding assertion. According to Bertrand Russell (2), “The word religion is used nowadays in a very loose sense. Some people under the influence of extreme Protestantism employ the word to denote any personal convictions as to morals or the nature of the universe. This use of the word is quite unhistorical.” When Einstein spoke of religion without specifying any particular historical religion, he spoke of religion in the abstract sense or in a philosophical context, which does not necessarily allude to any particular religion. At another place, he (3) asserted, “My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.” His God was not a god of retribution and reward because he also asserted, “I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own – a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty, “ (4).

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Added on December 3, 2010, 6:56 pmEven some atheists that i know do not deny the existence of god, in the sense that einsten did not dismiss a vague notion of an impersonal pantheistic god. However while we may never know the true absolute reality of god in whatever flavors, we can argue on the existence of god or gods based on the statements made about god. We can look at these statements scientifically, historically or rationally and establish if they are likely to be true or not. For example, if a god is said to have created human through adam and eve some 10K years ago, we know scientifically that is not true. Then what can you say about the existence of this god? Either you change the story of adam and eve to keep your faith intact, or you put on a mask and ear plugs denying all the available evidence and science of evolution.

This post has been edited by SpikeMarlene: Dec 3 2010, 06:56 PM

I guess if god really exists, and god is 'good' as what our current beliefs state, then I know god wants us to really love each other and take good care of Earth, our home. God gives us the ability to reason, to create tools based on our understanding of the feedbacks that nature have given to us called 'science', so that we can improve our lives and preserve the planet for future generations to come. If god can hear me, I want to ask god, what are politicians, bankers and governments doing to our world and fellow human beings? Why are they dividing us, controlling us, enslaving us, confusing us, conquering us, and harming us? Is money more important than the welfare of every person on Earth? I know that if god wouldn't answer us, we have to solve the problems on our own. That's why god gives us the ability to reason.

So how about the evil in this world, the atrocities and crimes humans commit? Where do they come from?

Actually, I reckoned, people who can think properly needs religion.
Religion is for leading human to good way.
If the people know to think positively, there is no necessary to enter a religion, as they know what they are doing clearly.

This post has been edited by kingkingyyk: Dec 4 2010, 09:57 AM

They come from each and everyone of us, the balance we try to keep, the urge we try to contain and falling behind will lead to the bad side. I see you keep defending that there are more good than evil like a decent person would but you are in denial. I would agree with your point of view long time ago and my living experience tells me how ugly human can be. Friends, relative and family member can turn against you.

Yes I agree that humans can be ugly but there is always a reason for them to do so. It always has to do with getting something, in most cases in our current world, it has to do with money and status, directly or indirectly. However, all of the good people I know who do good, they do it because they feel happy when others are happy for the good deeds they do. If most of the reasons for someone to turn ugly are eliminated, if not all, I believe humans can stay on the good side.

Then devil exists too.

@flore
yes

I agree with kingkingyyk that 'people who can think properly needs religion.'

The word religion may be painful to see, we try to substitute it with 'belief'

There are wisdom passed from ages past to this generation. We can either think highly of ourselves (by thinking independently and give no room to historical events and sets of regulations, recorded miracles, and values asserted in today's belief system, eg Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, and others) OR we appreciate the record of the ancient writing (we called it scriptural texts) by faith, not only to trust and to practice a 'good' lifestyle but also a fulfillment of life questions like

who are we, where we come from, where are we going etc questions =)

This post has been edited by alexkos: Dec 6 2010, 09:06 PM

When you make such statement, you are saying people who don't have religion can't think properly, yet you claim to be doing good being good. Which part of your religion deny the choice of others?

In science we ask what are we, how we evolve and create the future, all are more relevant to our daily life even without having to believe in the unknown, don't need to think about heaven or hell.

in fact, many people get psychological support from religion

People who have no sense of direction do rely on religion, have no personal standing in many issues of life and choose to believe is easier than seek continuous knowledge. To me its an excuse, how does that make you feel from someone who can't think properly?

Join online sudoku game when u r tired of arguing....

Everything we see is science not "sign", buildings, bridges, schools, hospital, car, the computer you are using to express in cyberspace. Religion is only at the church / temple / mosque or "na tok kong" under a tree.

lives still goes on without religion but cannot if without science, unless you are saying without religion people will go crazy and create chaos.

It's all indoctrination really. A baby that grows up without religion can still live properly given education and exposure to humane and relevant values of living. It's difficult in today's culture because we still have superstitious people around a kid as he grows up, there is still religious classes in schools, religious festivals celebrated by family, religious ideas portrayed in movies, music, media, etc. Just like the term 'ghost', if nobody tries to scare a child with the idea, a child won't associate 'ghost' with 'fear'. I hate it whenever I see people scare a child with fear associations. You don't scare a child, you educate him.

If only the religious people can ration the way you put it, they often think those atheist are not complete, lost something or lack of certain thing they have gained through religion and think highly of themselves, pure, decent... status in their mind or among their kind.

It is discriminating to declare its the proper way and they can't even keep the balance with their conduct in a public forum yet want to make statements.

Bold: That is one illness i seen in "some" of the talk of the believers

I somehow agree on someone earlier saying that people choose religion for an easier way to seek for direction.
As we can see, there are people who live on till they dead without religion and with religion,
there is no way anyone can do comparison on which type of people leading a better life because in the end everyone still doing what they want to do for their own reason.

Plus, im kinda bored of those mindsets thinking that without religion this world = total chaos,
just like a video i saw on utube talking about without religion, people will do all types of silly things like practicing abortion, free sex, even as far as burning those religious people,
which i see it as a really serious issues and strongly doubt what these people actually gain from their belief.

Think highly of own religion is one problem, but thinking that others is so much lower compare to ownself is definitely the way to make ownself as a lowly being in this world regardless how great they think they are.

Have a read through different religious books.(christianity,buddhism,quran,etc) What do they all share in common?They all teach us not to be @ssholes to one another.To respect and love each other.Thats all.

NEgative thinking and human influences like "There is only Allah/Jesus/etc in this world", "we should kill for religion", etc. comes from our own actions because its what we think 'should' be done for our own beliefs. This act in itself alraedy betrays our own religious teachings.

in other words,people who claim they know betetr by being religious,that their the best,purer etc,are hypocrites to the highest degree.

To me,religion iss only a guideline to leading a happy and prosperous life.Nothing more