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TSdy/dx
post Oct 26 2009, 07:11 PM, updated 17y ago

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Alright, experience bodybuilders out there. When you guys started bodybuilding/strength training, did you start off with body weight exercises or move straight away to free weights and machines. If you started with body weight, whats the reason (I heard to reduce injuries) and is it necessary?


This post has been edited by dy/dx: Oct 26 2009, 07:11 PM
Florian
post Oct 26 2009, 07:16 PM

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Dumbbells and barbells, with lighter weight of course.
Dennos
post Oct 26 2009, 07:19 PM

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cardio first eh, then gym according to schedule
TSdy/dx
post Oct 26 2009, 07:34 PM

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QUOTE(Florian @ Oct 26 2009, 07:16 PM)
Dumbbells and barbells, with lighter weight of course.
*
So you didn't go through body weight exercises first right? Anyway, how old are you?

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post Oct 26 2009, 07:45 PM

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Free weights and bodyweight exercises.
hakimz
post Oct 26 2009, 07:51 PM

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I choose to take lighter dumbell and hang my body for awhile, just to make my blood runs into my muscle(arnold said tongue.gif) then after warmup finish.. i start my weight session

sometimes i jog first, then go to gym smile.gif

This post has been edited by hakimz: Oct 26 2009, 10:35 PM
euphoria88
post Oct 26 2009, 08:22 PM

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Its like any other sports, you need to start from the light one and then add more weights, so its body weight exercises first smile.gif
no I am not a guy.
onimusha_m16
post Oct 26 2009, 09:51 PM

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stronglift 5X5
Florian
post Oct 26 2009, 09:55 PM

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QUOTE(dy/dx @ Oct 26 2009, 07:34 PM)
So you didn't go through body weight exercises first right? Anyway, how old are you?

*
22 years old.

Nope, straight to weight training.
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post Oct 28 2009, 12:52 AM

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QUOTE(dy/dx @ Oct 26 2009, 07:11 PM)
Alright, experience bodybuilders out there. When you guys started bodybuilding/strength training, did you start off with body weight exercises or move straight away to free weights and machines. If you started with body weight, whats the reason (I heard to reduce injuries) and is it necessary?
*
That is frankly dumb reasoning. You can still injure yourself doing bodyweight exercises, especially if you're not strong enough to handle your own bodyweight.

In fact, some exercises like chinups and pullups require you to train on machines to increase your arm and back strength before you even try doing full unassisted pullups/chinups.

Machines are good for beginners since they limit the margin for error and don't put as much strain on your stabiliser muscles.
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post Oct 28 2009, 07:26 AM

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QUOTE(~LynX~ @ Oct 28 2009, 12:52 AM)
That is frankly dumb reasoning. You can still injure yourself doing bodyweight exercises, especially if you're not strong enough to handle your own bodyweight.

In fact, some exercises like chinups and pullups require you to train on machines to increase your arm and back strength before you even try doing full unassisted pullups/chinups.

Machines are good for beginners since they limit the margin for error and don't put as much strain on your stabiliser muscles.

*
We're aiming TO STRAIN the stabilizer muscles. Actually strain isn't a good word for this. More like, train. Strain is excessive. When you use machines and remove the stabilization aspect of training, you get excessively strong core muscles, but weak stabilizers. Perfect recipe for disaster. If you do leg extensions, you probably have a lot of work done on your vastus muscles and rectus muscles. However, your hamstrings will into turn, not get any work done and hey presto! Overly strong quad muscles and weak hamstring muscles. And anterior pelvic tilt you'll get. Probably knee injuries as well.

Also a lot of machines, have excessive torque placed on joints because of it's angles and lack of support for stabilizer muscles, decreases muscular support and increases joint stress. More injuries.


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post Oct 28 2009, 03:02 PM

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Strength build on machines doesn't convert to body weight exercise.
Assisted pull-ups machines might be a diff case though, but you cant train pull ups with lat pulldowns


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iamyuanwu
post Oct 28 2009, 04:07 PM

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QUOTE(~LynX~ @ Oct 28 2009, 12:52 AM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Digressing a lot...

I'm gonna quote Pavel talking about training only using machines:
(especially relevent if the trainee wants athletic or functional strength and train with heavy weights)

"Would you rather make mistakes [on the body/free weights] when you're still weak and noobie; or make mistakes when you're strong enough to injure yourself?"

Anyway, most people workout in the gym with pretty light weight stuff. And they probably have no intention to squat or military press heavy. So the above quote would be of low significance anyway.... (until the day they decide to lift a bucket of water and sprain the back tongue.gif )
I prefer free weights and body weight stuff. And don't recommend machines them for noobs. I'd even go further to dis-recommend the treadmills too. (I know there's no such word as 'dis-recommend' laugh.gif)

Here's what I think: Stabiliser muscles are the limiting factor in strength. Most people have pretty OK primary muscle strength, but weak stabilisers. So the nervous system will shut down before the body injures itself.

This post has been edited by iamyuanwu: Oct 28 2009, 04:10 PM
kotmj
post Oct 28 2009, 04:38 PM

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The abs are one of the most important "stabilizer" muscles. In the overhead press and incline benches, I can lift more weight by consciously flexing my abs AHAP (as hard as possible) while lifting.
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post Oct 28 2009, 05:20 PM

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QUOTE(kotmj @ Oct 28 2009, 04:38 PM)
The abs are one of the most important "stabilizer" muscles. In the overhead press and incline benches, I can lift more weight by consciously flexing my abs AHAP (as hard as possible) while lifting.

And the glutes too!
FLEX YOUR GLUTES!
yeah_guyz
post Oct 28 2009, 05:52 PM

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flex the glutes can make huge different in Overhead press.
it applied to other excercise as well
TSdy/dx
post Oct 28 2009, 09:48 PM

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QUOTE(~LynX~ @ Oct 28 2009, 12:52 AM)
That is frankly dumb reasoning. You can still injure yourself doing bodyweight exercises, especially if you're not strong enough to handle your own bodyweight.

In fact, some exercises like chinups and pullups require you to train on machines to increase your arm and back strength before you even try doing full unassisted pullups/chinups.

Machines are good for beginners since they limit the margin for error and don't put as much strain on your stabiliser muscles.
*
Can't just start off doing negatives for body weight exercises instead of doing the full rep? And I heard machine are the worst to start with if you're a beginner.

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post Oct 28 2009, 10:48 PM

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QUOTE(dy/dx @ Oct 28 2009, 09:48 PM)
Can't just start off doing negatives for body weight exercises instead of doing the full rep? And I heard machine are the worst to start with if you're a beginner.

*
You have to take things one step at a time. It would be ideal if you start off being able to do bodyweight exercises. Note I said being able to, not doing a routine of bodyweight exercises.

Think about it, if you can't control your own bodyweight in a bodyweight lunge, squat, pushup etc, how do you think your body will react when it is put into those positions WITH ADDED WEIGHT?

As for pullups and chinups, those are a different story. Many people start out being unable to do a single pullup or chinup. The best way to start on those would be negatives. Jump up onto the bar (so that you start at the top of the pullup) and then slowly lower yourself down. Try to lower yourself down slowly between 5-10 seconds, and increase the reps as you get better.

And as pizzaboy mentioned, machines are not ideal, especially for beginners. You have to train your entire body to be able to support loads. A program like Rippetoes would be the most suitable for beginners. Base your workouts on compound exercises with free weights and you won't go wrong.
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post Oct 29 2009, 02:42 AM

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QUOTE(pizzaboy @ Oct 28 2009, 07:26 AM)
We're aiming TO STRAIN the stabilizer muscles. Actually strain isn't a good word for this. More like, train. Strain is excessive. When you use machines and remove the stabilization aspect of training, you get excessively strong core muscles, but weak stabilizers. Perfect recipe for disaster. If you do leg extensions, you probably have a lot of work done on your vastus muscles and rectus muscles. However, your hamstrings will into turn, not get any work done and hey presto! Overly strong quad muscles and weak hamstring muscles. And anterior pelvic tilt you'll get. Probably knee injuries as well.

Also a lot of machines, have excessive torque placed on joints because of it's angles and lack of support for stabilizer muscles, decreases muscular support and increases joint stress. More injuries.
*
And you are right, stabiliser muscles are equally important, if not even more so.

However, newbs just don't have that feel for good form yet, let alone keeping stable, and free weights have a higher risk of twisting or pulling something, dropping the weight on themselves and all manner of other nasty things. My case for machines is simply for minimising the chances of injuring oneself.

Also, if a beginner does not have someone experienced enough to guide them while training... disaster. If you go to some of the big gyms, there are actually machines designed for beginners like assisted pullup machines, and the equipment i've tried when I took a trial are actually quite good in terms of support and easy on the joints.

Yes, they are mostly isolation machines, and yes, they don't train the stabiliser muscles much, but they sure are helpful for getting a feel for getting the form right, and supplementing free weights.

QUOTE(dy/dx @ Oct 28 2009, 09:48 PM)
Can't just start off doing negatives for body weight exercises instead of doing the full rep? And I heard machine are the worst to start with if you're a beginner.

*
If you feel you can train up bodyweight exercises doing negatives, its fine. Just make sure you push yourself to do full reps.
And the problem I see with machines is that you might get too comfortable with machines that you neglect free weights.

My reasoning is first and foremost avoiding injury, because it is the single most demoralising thing that can happen to any sportsman, having to sit out of training for weeks, months or even years due to injuries. For newbs if can make them give up entirely.

Anyway, take my advice with a grain of salt, and do your own research now that you have some perspectives about this matter and decide for yourself how you want to start out.



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post Oct 29 2009, 08:38 AM

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QUOTE(~LynX~ @ Oct 29 2009, 02:42 AM)
And you are right, stabiliser muscles are equally important, if not even more so.

However, newbs just don't have that feel for good form yet, let alone keeping stable, and free weights have a higher risk of twisting or pulling something, dropping the weight on themselves and all manner of other nasty things. My case for machines is simply for minimising the chances of injuring oneself.

Also, if a beginner does not have someone experienced enough to guide them while training... disaster. If you go to some of the big gyms, there are actually machines designed for beginners like assisted pullup machines, and the equipment i've tried when I took a trial are actually quite good in terms of support and easy on the joints.

Yes, they are mostly isolation machines, and yes, they don't train the stabiliser muscles much, but they sure are helpful for getting a feel for getting the form right, and supplementing free weights.
If you feel you can train up bodyweight exercises doing negatives, its fine. Just make sure you push yourself to do full reps.
And the problem I see with machines is that you might get too comfortable with machines that you neglect free weights.

My reasoning is first and foremost avoiding injury, because it is the single most demoralising thing that can happen to any sportsman, having to sit out of training for weeks, months or even years due to injuries. For newbs if can make them give up entirely.

Anyway, take my advice with a grain of salt, and do your own research now that you have some perspectives about this matter and decide for yourself how you want to start out.
*
Among NASM trainers and even weightlifting athletes, we've a phase we call the "Stabilization Phase". It's a 7 phase model, where 2 phases are based on stabilization, 3 on strength, 2 on power. Personally, I hate following books, but this one I have to agree.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Btw, do a smith machine squat or a smith machine reverse lunge for 8 weeks. Now move to a barbell. There you have it. It doesn't teach the movement AT ALL.
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post Nov 1 2009, 12:19 AM

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QUOTE(pizzaboy @ Oct 29 2009, 08:38 AM)
Among NASM trainers and even weightlifting athletes, we've a phase we call the "Stabilization Phase". It's a 7 phase model, where 2 phases are based on stabilization, 3 on strength, 2 on power. Personally, I hate following books, but this one I have to agree.
[...]
Btw, do a smith machine squat or a smith machine reverse lunge for 8 weeks. Now move to a barbell. There you have it. It doesn't teach the movement AT ALL.
*
That's interesting stuff, i'll have to read up on that. In any case, I've personally never used a smith machine (the gym I go to doesn't have one, only a squat rack). Perhaps we're generalising too much here, but machines do help with SOME movements like the shoulder press and chest press form. And there's some machines that I feel are indespensable simply because I can't do them using free weights (lat pulldowns, tricep pressdowns, cable standing flyes, leg press etc.)

And I would concede to your points about free weights vs machines, save for the fact that it is on the assumption that the newbies in question actually have someone experienced on hand to spot and guide them with the free weights in the gym.

The articles here all say pretty much the same thing: Free weights should be the basis of one's training regimen, and are machines to supplement free weights.
The pros of using machines is that it doesn't really require supervision/spotters, and you don't have to fear having your face bashed in by a dumbell or ribcage cracked from a barbell.

source

As most of you probably notice (and practice), gym regulars don't really bother to give coaching to "them unwashed newbs" stumbling around the gym with no idea of how to train.


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post Nov 1 2009, 12:50 AM

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Why the lat pulldown when there is the pullup?
Florian
post Nov 1 2009, 12:57 AM

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QUOTE(kotmj @ Nov 1 2009, 12:50 AM)
Why the lat pulldown when there is the pullup?
*
Lat pull down allows you to train your lats light than your body weight. I'm 82kg and it's impossible for me to do 4 sets of 10 pull ups with proper form. With the lat pull down, I can do a weight lighter than 82kg and so I train my lats properly with proper form.
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post Nov 1 2009, 10:56 AM

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QUOTE(~LynX~ @ Nov 1 2009, 12:19 AM)
That's interesting stuff, i'll have to read up on that. In any case, I've personally never used a smith machine (the gym I go to doesn't have one, only a squat rack). Perhaps we're generalising too much here, but machines do help with SOME movements like the shoulder press and chest press form. And there's some machines that I feel are indespensable simply because I can't do them using free weights (lat pulldowns, tricep pressdowns, cable standing flyes, leg press etc.)

And I would concede to your points about free weights vs machines, save for the fact that it is on the assumption that the newbies in question actually have someone experienced on hand to spot and guide them with the free weights in the gym.

The articles here all say pretty much the same thing: Free weights should be the basis of one's training regimen, and are machines to supplement free weights.
The pros of using machines is that it doesn't really require supervision/spotters, and you don't have to fear having your face bashed in by a dumbell or ribcage cracked from a barbell.

source

As most of you probably notice (and practice), gym regulars don't really bother to give coaching to "them unwashed newbs" stumbling around the gym with no idea of how to train.
*
We could go on all day about machines VS freeweights. Yet the point I'm trying to make is, machines do have a place, which is best after exhausting the primary muscles via the primary mover activities that fry everything including the stabilizers. Then once these little stabilizer muscles have been fried, proceed to the machines and do a few more sets to then work the targeted muscles even more. Excellent for bodybuilding.

I'm almost using this word stabilizers excessively recently, because I've got a few clients that don't understand why I'm changing their ab twist and side bends with dumbbells, to an old 16" tire and slamming it around. Then they wake up the next day with sore oblique muscles, arm, legs, back and even hips.

QUOTE(kotmj @ Nov 1 2009, 12:50 AM)
Why the lat pulldown when there is the pullup?
*
Same reason as above.
shanecross
post Nov 1 2009, 11:11 AM

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QUOTE(~LynX~ @ Nov 1 2009, 01:19 AM)
That's interesting stuff, i'll have to read up on that. In any case, I've personally never used a smith machine (the gym I go to doesn't have one, only a squat rack). Perhaps we're generalising too much here, but machines do help with SOME movements like the shoulder press and chest press form. And there's some machines that I feel are indespensable simply because I can't do them using free weights (lat pulldowns, tricep pressdowns, cable standing flyes, leg press etc.)

And I would concede to your points about free weights vs machines, save for the fact that it is on the assumption that the newbies in question actually have someone experienced on hand to spot and guide them with the free weights in the gym.

The articles here all say pretty much the same thing: Free weights should be the basis of one's training regimen, and are machines to supplement free weights.
The pros of using machines is that it doesn't really require supervision/spotters, and you don't have to fear having your face bashed in by a dumbell or ribcage cracked from a barbell.

source

As most of you probably notice (and practice), gym regulars don't really bother to give coaching to "them unwashed newbs" stumbling around the gym with no idea of how to train.
*
That is bull-crap. I've stumbled upon many first-time trainees in the gym who start off with biceps curl and end their session with wrist curls. I've also seen many co**heads who come to the gym, do some cable curls and call it "Strength Workout".

So what will their reaction be when I come up to them and ask them to do something more decent? They say yes and they walk away continuing whatever rubbish they are doing previously.

Its not that we don't bother helping out whatever we can to noobs like you, you people just can't be bothered. You people rather listen to the salesman/saleswoman in GNC. I'm not IFBB pro or whatsoever, up to you to take my advice or not cool2.gif

This post has been edited by shanecross: Nov 1 2009, 12:22 PM
Desvaro
post Nov 1 2009, 02:01 PM

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QUOTE(shanecross @ Nov 1 2009, 11:11 AM)
That is bull-crap. I've stumbled upon many first-time trainees in the gym who start off with biceps curl and end their session with wrist curls. I've also seen many co**heads who come to the gym, do some cable curls and call it "Strength Workout".

So what will their reaction be when I come up to them and ask them to do something more decent? They say yes and they walk away continuing whatever rubbish they are doing previously.

Its not that we don't bother helping out whatever we can to noobs like you, you people just can't be bothered. You people rather listen to the salesman/saleswoman in GNC. I'm not IFBB pro or whatsoever, up to you to take my advice or not  cool2.gif
*
I've seen guys (and these are not pure noobs) where their entire workout consists of bicep curls. Standing bicep curls, sitting bicep curls, lying bicep curls, lying face down bicep curls, and other bicep curls which I am not bothered to name. I finish squatting, bulgarian split squats, romanian deadlifts, calf work, and they still have not finished curling.

The problem with most beginners is that they just don't bother to read up and gain some knowledge before they start. Their number one focus is big biceps, so hey if i do bicep curls I'll have bigger biceps right? They only have 2 things on their mind: How to get bigger biceps? What supplement should I take?

As shanecross mentioned, its not that we don't want to help. My friends would sometimes ask me what to do to get started, I'd just send them a copy of Starting Strength and tell them to read it and get back to me, together with some nutrition articles.

This is not a jab at ALL complete beginners, but a big proportion of them are like that, which is sad. Because if more total beginners would listen to experienced guys, then more experienced guys would be willing to teach and correct stuff.

My advice to beginners out there is to be humble and be willing to learn.

This post has been edited by Desvaro: Nov 1 2009, 02:02 PM
Florian
post Nov 1 2009, 03:02 PM

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If newbs want to learn, they should ask. We are not in the gym just to teach newbs, we have our training to do too. If they ask, of course we are glad to teach them a thing or two.
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post Nov 2 2009, 05:38 PM

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QUOTE(bata @ Oct 28 2009, 03:02 PM)
Strength build on machines doesn't convert to body weight exercise.
Assisted pull-ups machines might be a diff case though, but you cant train pull ups with lat pulldowns
Chow
*
Assisted pull-ups and dips sucks. Did not have any improvement for 6 months until I read an article to start with the real thing even if its only one rep. My dips now improved a lot now but my pull ups is still seriously lagging. Seems like I can't hang on to the wide grip pull ups but the narrow grip is not too bad.
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post Nov 2 2009, 06:28 PM

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QUOTE(soitsuagain @ Nov 2 2009, 05:38 PM)
Assisted pull-ups and dips sucks. Did not have any improvement for 6 months until I read an article to start with the real thing even if its only one rep. My dips now improved a lot now but my pull ups is still seriously lagging. Seems like I can't hang on to the wide grip pull ups but the narrow grip is not too bad.
*
Its still a tool maybe we didnt know the way to use it...lol
but i trained one overweight boy from 0 pull ups to 9x by using negatives and kipping pull-ups.


Chow
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post Nov 2 2009, 06:47 PM

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QUOTE(bata @ Nov 2 2009, 06:28 PM)
Its still a tool maybe we didnt know the way to use it...lol
but i trained one overweight boy from 0 pull ups to 9x by using negatives and kipping pull-ups.
Chow
*
9 time strict form or kipping?

teach me teach me tongue.gif i am also a overweight man with zero pull up sad.gif
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post Nov 2 2009, 06:52 PM

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didnt bata just said? negative pull ups. haha... means u cheap urself up, but go down slowly. i think youtube got loads of info bout this.
i started off with 1 pull ups too.
in a week, i manage to get 10 reps
bata
post Nov 2 2009, 07:13 PM

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QUOTE(yeah_guyz @ Nov 2 2009, 06:47 PM)
9 time strict form or kipping?

teach me teach me tongue.gif  i am also a overweight man with zero pull up sad.gif
*
quite strict form i would say.
nah, no magic lah u can learn yourself. lol
jump from a bench and go down slowly (negatives) laugh.gif

QUOTE(JonYeap @ Nov 2 2009, 06:52 PM)
didnt bata just said? negative pull ups. haha... means u cheap urself up, but go down slowly. i think youtube got loads of info bout this.
i started off with 1 pull ups too.
in a week, i manage to get 10 reps
*
gratz to you icon_rolleyes.gif icon_rolleyes.gif


Chow
yeah_guyz
post Nov 2 2009, 07:29 PM

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QUOTE(bata @ Nov 2 2009, 07:13 PM)
quite strict form i would say.
nah, no magic lah u can learn yourself. lol
jump from a bench and go down slowly (negatives)  laugh.gif
gratz to you  icon_rolleyes.gif  icon_rolleyes.gif
Chow
*
tried it last time. TOO PAINFUL man...haha especially after 3 heavy big compound.
but will probably do it again. now i feel still alot energy after the big compound. improved of stamina i think yeah
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post Nov 2 2009, 11:00 PM

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is the rank "stand" i dont know what is it called, considered as machine?
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post Nov 2 2009, 11:09 PM

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QUOTE(yeah_guyz @ Nov 2 2009, 07:29 PM)
tried it last time. TOO PAINFUL man...haha especially after 3 heavy big compound.
but will probably do it again. now i feel still alot energy after the big compound. improved of stamina i think yeah
*
Probably weights are too light. By the time I'm done doing my 5x5 squats (which I only test once a week), I'm gassed out!
yeah_guyz
post Nov 3 2009, 01:12 PM

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QUOTE(pizzaboy @ Nov 2 2009, 11:09 PM)
Probably weights are too light. By the time I'm done doing my 5x5 squats (which I only test once a week), I'm gassed out!
*
haha, not really light for me. probably due to i rest longer, as at the same time i am guiding my cousin how to lift
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post Nov 3 2009, 11:35 PM

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QUOTE(pizzaboy @ Nov 1 2009, 10:56 AM)
We could go on all day about machines VS freeweights. Yet the point I'm trying to make is, machines do have a place, which is best after exhausting the primary muscles via the primary mover activities that fry everything including the stabilizers. Then once these little stabilizer muscles have been fried, proceed to the machines and do a few more sets to then work the targeted muscles even more. Excellent for bodybuilding.

I'm almost using this word stabilizers excessively recently, because I've got a few clients that don't understand why I'm changing their ab twist and side bends with dumbbells, to an old 16" tire and slamming it around. Then they wake up the next day with sore oblique muscles, arm, legs, back and even hips.
Same reason as above.
*
Okay, got your point. smile.gif

QUOTE(shanecross @ Nov 1 2009, 11:11 AM)
That is bull-crap. I've stumbled upon many first-time trainees in the gym who start off with biceps curl and end their session with wrist curls. I've also seen many co**heads who come to the gym, do some cable curls and call it "Strength Workout".

So what will their reaction be when I come up to them and ask them to do something more decent? They say yes and they walk away continuing whatever rubbish they are doing previously.

Its not that we don't bother helping out whatever we can to noobs like you, you people just can't be bothered. You people rather listen to the salesman/saleswoman in GNC. I'm not IFBB pro or whatsoever, up to you to take my advice or not  cool2.gif
*
Why so serious? And what's up with calling me a noob all of a sudden? sweat.gif
CelciuzX
post Nov 6 2009, 10:46 PM

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I'm 16, started with dumbbells then bodyweight workouts like push ups. Then moved to barbells.

I just can't seem to gain meat at my chest area. Meat not muscles. sweat.gif
kotmj
post Nov 6 2009, 11:10 PM

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From: City of Anggerik


You can do bench presses. If you want chest muscles, do them. Don't bother to do anything else. Go to gym, warm up, bench press many times, go home.


Added on November 6, 2009, 11:15 pmActually, you shouldn't even bother going to the gym. Just watch videos of people bench pressing will do.

This post has been edited by kotmj: Nov 6 2009, 11:15 PM
-Dan
post Nov 6 2009, 11:34 PM

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Tape two steaks to your chest. There, problem solved.
kotmj
post Nov 6 2009, 11:52 PM

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Joined: Apr 2009
From: City of Anggerik


QUOTE(-Dan @ Nov 6 2009, 11:34 PM)
Tape two steaks to your chest. There, problem solved.
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Hahahahaha!

 

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