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TSdy/dx
post Oct 26 2009, 07:11 PM, updated 17y ago

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Alright, experience bodybuilders out there. When you guys started bodybuilding/strength training, did you start off with body weight exercises or move straight away to free weights and machines. If you started with body weight, whats the reason (I heard to reduce injuries) and is it necessary?


This post has been edited by dy/dx: Oct 26 2009, 07:11 PM
Florian
post Oct 26 2009, 07:16 PM

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Dumbbells and barbells, with lighter weight of course.
Dennos
post Oct 26 2009, 07:19 PM

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cardio first eh, then gym according to schedule
TSdy/dx
post Oct 26 2009, 07:34 PM

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QUOTE(Florian @ Oct 26 2009, 07:16 PM)
Dumbbells and barbells, with lighter weight of course.
*
So you didn't go through body weight exercises first right? Anyway, how old are you?

-Dan
post Oct 26 2009, 07:45 PM

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Free weights and bodyweight exercises.
hakimz
post Oct 26 2009, 07:51 PM

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I choose to take lighter dumbell and hang my body for awhile, just to make my blood runs into my muscle(arnold said tongue.gif) then after warmup finish.. i start my weight session

sometimes i jog first, then go to gym smile.gif

This post has been edited by hakimz: Oct 26 2009, 10:35 PM
euphoria88
post Oct 26 2009, 08:22 PM

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Its like any other sports, you need to start from the light one and then add more weights, so its body weight exercises first smile.gif
no I am not a guy.
onimusha_m16
post Oct 26 2009, 09:51 PM

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stronglift 5X5
Florian
post Oct 26 2009, 09:55 PM

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QUOTE(dy/dx @ Oct 26 2009, 07:34 PM)
So you didn't go through body weight exercises first right? Anyway, how old are you?

*
22 years old.

Nope, straight to weight training.
~LynX~
post Oct 28 2009, 12:52 AM

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QUOTE(dy/dx @ Oct 26 2009, 07:11 PM)
Alright, experience bodybuilders out there. When you guys started bodybuilding/strength training, did you start off with body weight exercises or move straight away to free weights and machines. If you started with body weight, whats the reason (I heard to reduce injuries) and is it necessary?
*
That is frankly dumb reasoning. You can still injure yourself doing bodyweight exercises, especially if you're not strong enough to handle your own bodyweight.

In fact, some exercises like chinups and pullups require you to train on machines to increase your arm and back strength before you even try doing full unassisted pullups/chinups.

Machines are good for beginners since they limit the margin for error and don't put as much strain on your stabiliser muscles.
pizzaboy
post Oct 28 2009, 07:26 AM

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QUOTE(~LynX~ @ Oct 28 2009, 12:52 AM)
That is frankly dumb reasoning. You can still injure yourself doing bodyweight exercises, especially if you're not strong enough to handle your own bodyweight.

In fact, some exercises like chinups and pullups require you to train on machines to increase your arm and back strength before you even try doing full unassisted pullups/chinups.

Machines are good for beginners since they limit the margin for error and don't put as much strain on your stabiliser muscles.

*
We're aiming TO STRAIN the stabilizer muscles. Actually strain isn't a good word for this. More like, train. Strain is excessive. When you use machines and remove the stabilization aspect of training, you get excessively strong core muscles, but weak stabilizers. Perfect recipe for disaster. If you do leg extensions, you probably have a lot of work done on your vastus muscles and rectus muscles. However, your hamstrings will into turn, not get any work done and hey presto! Overly strong quad muscles and weak hamstring muscles. And anterior pelvic tilt you'll get. Probably knee injuries as well.

Also a lot of machines, have excessive torque placed on joints because of it's angles and lack of support for stabilizer muscles, decreases muscular support and increases joint stress. More injuries.


bata
post Oct 28 2009, 03:02 PM

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Strength build on machines doesn't convert to body weight exercise.
Assisted pull-ups machines might be a diff case though, but you cant train pull ups with lat pulldowns


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iamyuanwu
post Oct 28 2009, 04:07 PM

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QUOTE(~LynX~ @ Oct 28 2009, 12:52 AM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Digressing a lot...

I'm gonna quote Pavel talking about training only using machines:
(especially relevent if the trainee wants athletic or functional strength and train with heavy weights)

"Would you rather make mistakes [on the body/free weights] when you're still weak and noobie; or make mistakes when you're strong enough to injure yourself?"

Anyway, most people workout in the gym with pretty light weight stuff. And they probably have no intention to squat or military press heavy. So the above quote would be of low significance anyway.... (until the day they decide to lift a bucket of water and sprain the back tongue.gif )
I prefer free weights and body weight stuff. And don't recommend machines them for noobs. I'd even go further to dis-recommend the treadmills too. (I know there's no such word as 'dis-recommend' laugh.gif)

Here's what I think: Stabiliser muscles are the limiting factor in strength. Most people have pretty OK primary muscle strength, but weak stabilisers. So the nervous system will shut down before the body injures itself.

This post has been edited by iamyuanwu: Oct 28 2009, 04:10 PM
kotmj
post Oct 28 2009, 04:38 PM

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The abs are one of the most important "stabilizer" muscles. In the overhead press and incline benches, I can lift more weight by consciously flexing my abs AHAP (as hard as possible) while lifting.
iamyuanwu
post Oct 28 2009, 05:20 PM

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QUOTE(kotmj @ Oct 28 2009, 04:38 PM)
The abs are one of the most important "stabilizer" muscles. In the overhead press and incline benches, I can lift more weight by consciously flexing my abs AHAP (as hard as possible) while lifting.

And the glutes too!
FLEX YOUR GLUTES!
yeah_guyz
post Oct 28 2009, 05:52 PM

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flex the glutes can make huge different in Overhead press.
it applied to other excercise as well
TSdy/dx
post Oct 28 2009, 09:48 PM

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QUOTE(~LynX~ @ Oct 28 2009, 12:52 AM)
That is frankly dumb reasoning. You can still injure yourself doing bodyweight exercises, especially if you're not strong enough to handle your own bodyweight.

In fact, some exercises like chinups and pullups require you to train on machines to increase your arm and back strength before you even try doing full unassisted pullups/chinups.

Machines are good for beginners since they limit the margin for error and don't put as much strain on your stabiliser muscles.
*
Can't just start off doing negatives for body weight exercises instead of doing the full rep? And I heard machine are the worst to start with if you're a beginner.

Desvaro
post Oct 28 2009, 10:48 PM

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QUOTE(dy/dx @ Oct 28 2009, 09:48 PM)
Can't just start off doing negatives for body weight exercises instead of doing the full rep? And I heard machine are the worst to start with if you're a beginner.

*
You have to take things one step at a time. It would be ideal if you start off being able to do bodyweight exercises. Note I said being able to, not doing a routine of bodyweight exercises.

Think about it, if you can't control your own bodyweight in a bodyweight lunge, squat, pushup etc, how do you think your body will react when it is put into those positions WITH ADDED WEIGHT?

As for pullups and chinups, those are a different story. Many people start out being unable to do a single pullup or chinup. The best way to start on those would be negatives. Jump up onto the bar (so that you start at the top of the pullup) and then slowly lower yourself down. Try to lower yourself down slowly between 5-10 seconds, and increase the reps as you get better.

And as pizzaboy mentioned, machines are not ideal, especially for beginners. You have to train your entire body to be able to support loads. A program like Rippetoes would be the most suitable for beginners. Base your workouts on compound exercises with free weights and you won't go wrong.
~LynX~
post Oct 29 2009, 02:42 AM

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QUOTE(pizzaboy @ Oct 28 2009, 07:26 AM)
We're aiming TO STRAIN the stabilizer muscles. Actually strain isn't a good word for this. More like, train. Strain is excessive. When you use machines and remove the stabilization aspect of training, you get excessively strong core muscles, but weak stabilizers. Perfect recipe for disaster. If you do leg extensions, you probably have a lot of work done on your vastus muscles and rectus muscles. However, your hamstrings will into turn, not get any work done and hey presto! Overly strong quad muscles and weak hamstring muscles. And anterior pelvic tilt you'll get. Probably knee injuries as well.

Also a lot of machines, have excessive torque placed on joints because of it's angles and lack of support for stabilizer muscles, decreases muscular support and increases joint stress. More injuries.
*
And you are right, stabiliser muscles are equally important, if not even more so.

However, newbs just don't have that feel for good form yet, let alone keeping stable, and free weights have a higher risk of twisting or pulling something, dropping the weight on themselves and all manner of other nasty things. My case for machines is simply for minimising the chances of injuring oneself.

Also, if a beginner does not have someone experienced enough to guide them while training... disaster. If you go to some of the big gyms, there are actually machines designed for beginners like assisted pullup machines, and the equipment i've tried when I took a trial are actually quite good in terms of support and easy on the joints.

Yes, they are mostly isolation machines, and yes, they don't train the stabiliser muscles much, but they sure are helpful for getting a feel for getting the form right, and supplementing free weights.

QUOTE(dy/dx @ Oct 28 2009, 09:48 PM)
Can't just start off doing negatives for body weight exercises instead of doing the full rep? And I heard machine are the worst to start with if you're a beginner.

*
If you feel you can train up bodyweight exercises doing negatives, its fine. Just make sure you push yourself to do full reps.
And the problem I see with machines is that you might get too comfortable with machines that you neglect free weights.

My reasoning is first and foremost avoiding injury, because it is the single most demoralising thing that can happen to any sportsman, having to sit out of training for weeks, months or even years due to injuries. For newbs if can make them give up entirely.

Anyway, take my advice with a grain of salt, and do your own research now that you have some perspectives about this matter and decide for yourself how you want to start out.



pizzaboy
post Oct 29 2009, 08:38 AM

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QUOTE(~LynX~ @ Oct 29 2009, 02:42 AM)
And you are right, stabiliser muscles are equally important, if not even more so.

However, newbs just don't have that feel for good form yet, let alone keeping stable, and free weights have a higher risk of twisting or pulling something, dropping the weight on themselves and all manner of other nasty things. My case for machines is simply for minimising the chances of injuring oneself.

Also, if a beginner does not have someone experienced enough to guide them while training... disaster. If you go to some of the big gyms, there are actually machines designed for beginners like assisted pullup machines, and the equipment i've tried when I took a trial are actually quite good in terms of support and easy on the joints.

Yes, they are mostly isolation machines, and yes, they don't train the stabiliser muscles much, but they sure are helpful for getting a feel for getting the form right, and supplementing free weights.
If you feel you can train up bodyweight exercises doing negatives, its fine. Just make sure you push yourself to do full reps.
And the problem I see with machines is that you might get too comfortable with machines that you neglect free weights.

My reasoning is first and foremost avoiding injury, because it is the single most demoralising thing that can happen to any sportsman, having to sit out of training for weeks, months or even years due to injuries. For newbs if can make them give up entirely.

Anyway, take my advice with a grain of salt, and do your own research now that you have some perspectives about this matter and decide for yourself how you want to start out.
*
Among NASM trainers and even weightlifting athletes, we've a phase we call the "Stabilization Phase". It's a 7 phase model, where 2 phases are based on stabilization, 3 on strength, 2 on power. Personally, I hate following books, but this one I have to agree.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Btw, do a smith machine squat or a smith machine reverse lunge for 8 weeks. Now move to a barbell. There you have it. It doesn't teach the movement AT ALL.

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