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 Lossless audio really that much of a difference?, DD-TrueHD/DTS-HD MA vs DD/DTS

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TSchewkl
post Sep 13 2009, 08:56 PM, updated 17y ago

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I have to admit I have never experienced lossless audio before and reading about all your boom boom pow biling balang reports here really is poisoning. So much so that I bought a HD Audio capable receiver although I was more than happy with my old one that can only do DD/DTS. (I have to admit there was a firesale then biggrin.gif)

Then yesterday, I had the opportunity to experience DTS-HD MA in SenQ as they were playing Fast and Furious 2 in one of their Jamo demo rooms. I have to say if memory serves me right, I cannot hear any difference at all comparing to my copy of DVD. I was let down on the spot, but thought maybe it was the speakers.

Then I came back home and did some research on HD audio, and this article was very eye-opening (eardrum busting in this case):

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueH...ncompressed_PCM

Some of the excerpts from the article:

QUOTE
To get the latest scoop on these new codecs, Editor-in-Chief Geoffrey Morrison and I made arrangements to visit both companies’ respective headquarters, where we would be able to hear definitive A/B comparisons that would be otherwise impossible to properly set up in our own facilities.
QUOTE
The shocker came when we compared the lower 448 kbps Dolby Digital DVD bitrate to the original. There was an audible difference, but it was only ever-so-slightly noticeable (and this is with a high end audio system in an acoustically controlled environment that is so far beyond what typical home theater systems are capable of resolving). There was just the slightest decrease in presence with the DD version, not exactly a softening of the sound, but just a tad less ambience and a similarly small tightening of the front soundstage’s depth. Quite a remarkable result, I thought, and I was highly impressed with how much fidelity can be packed into such a relatively small amount of bitspace. If I was doing actual scoring, I would have awarded a 4.8 grade to the results I heard – the audible difference was that subtle.
QUOTE
It was déjà vu all over again. We switched back and forth between the original PCM master and the core DTS version, and here we found only the slightest, barely noticeable difference. From a frequency response standpoint, both versions were identical, with clearly delineated high frequency details, but the compressed version differed slightly only in barely noticeable presence —that sense of being “there”, with the original PCM track having just slightly greater overall richness. Whatever acoustic elements were removed in the code/decode process were clearly superfluous, at least for the most part, as the audible differences were so minor as to be almost unnoticeable—again, another testament to the capabilities of this highly refined codec.
and the finishing blow...

QUOTE
What impressed, or perhaps surprised, me most about these tests was how good the base codecs actually are. The difference between the original audio and the basic Dolby Digital and DTS is a lot subtler than you’d expect, given the extreme amount of compression (around 10:1, a similar ratio to that of 128 kbps MP3).
What a bummer... sad.gif
azxel
post Sep 13 2009, 09:26 PM

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Personally I don't have a full-HD capable audio system but been listening here and there... for movies, I can't really detect much difference but for music, the difference is slightly more obvious if I pay close attention.
ar188
post Sep 13 2009, 09:40 PM

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QUOTE(chewkl @ Sep 13 2009, 08:56 PM)
I have to admit I have never experienced lossless audio before and reading about all your boom boom pow biling balang reports here really is poisoning. So much so that I bought a HD Audio capable receiver although I was more than happy with my old one that can only do DD/DTS. (I have to admit there was a firesale then biggrin.gif)

Then yesterday, I had the opportunity to experience DTS-HD MA in SenQ as they were playing Fast and Furious 2 in one of their Jamo demo rooms. I have to say if memory serves me right, I cannot hear any difference at all comparing to my copy of DVD. I was let down on the spot, but thought maybe it was the speakers.

Then I came back home and did some research on HD audio, and this article was very eye-opening (eardrum busting in this case):

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueH...ncompressed_PCM

Some of the excerpts from the article:
and the finishing blow...
What a bummer... sad.gif
*
sure or not? even on stereo speakers via PS3 playing Blu-ray, switching from DD/DTS to TrueHD/LPCM/DTS-MA tracks.. the difference is there..

anyway you can join Rx330 gang.. he also can't hear the difference..

since can't hear, next time you visit, I pass you DVDs instead of my Blu-ray movies, anjua? biggrin.gif
arremie
post Sep 13 2009, 09:49 PM

hmm...
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TS, I think I might have about the same experience as yours. My first demo was using PS3 with Yammy 663 and PSB Alpha. I was highly disappointed with what I heard.

Now using BD60 with Malaz 6003 and Klipsch, it was a totally different experience. It is what HD audio should be. So I guess it also depends on our hardware. Just my 2 cents.
maja_5365
post Sep 13 2009, 09:53 PM

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Dont know abt u guys, but mine can immeadiately notice the diff. with my previous yammy even with the entry level psb alpha. There were more detailed and bass was tight. Still havent got the time to tune up with my new hd avr though.
arremie
post Sep 13 2009, 09:56 PM

hmm...
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What I was trying to say is during the first demo, the difference is not impressive and way out of my expectation. I didn't say there was no difference at all. Sorry for the misunderstanding smile.gif
robinlim
post Sep 13 2009, 10:21 PM

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I would say the difference is there
especially on the LFE part
I can feel that the bass is tighter and more full for HD audios
For mid and high, the difference is very mild

This is in fact I'm comparing the HD-audios from BD and the DD/DTS from MKV, which the source is the same

TSchewkl
post Sep 13 2009, 10:39 PM

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QUOTE(ar188 @ Sep 13 2009, 09:40 PM)
sure or not? even on stereo speakers via PS3 playing Blu-ray, switching from DD/DTS to TrueHD/LPCM/DTS-MA tracks.. the difference is there..

anyway you can join Rx330 gang.. he also can't hear the difference..

since can't hear, next time you visit, I pass you DVDs instead of my Blu-ray movies, anjua?  biggrin.gif
*
No mah, just stating my experience and telling U what I read in the article. Or maybe those Jamo speakers in SenQ suck. biggrin.gif
ar188
post Sep 13 2009, 10:58 PM

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QUOTE(chewkl @ Sep 13 2009, 10:39 PM)
No mah, just stating my experience and telling U what I read in the article. Or maybe those Jamo speakers in SenQ suck. biggrin.gif
*
I think RX commented with similar conclusion while using jamo as well.. laugh.gif
butter finger
post Sep 13 2009, 11:01 PM

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The first time I auditioned HD audio was at a shop, a closed demo room. Consists of Onkyo 9XX (can't rmb), Pana Bd60, Mirage speaker setup and Velo CHT12. To my surprise, not impressive, tested with Diehard 4.0. But the guy said he hasn't set up the system yet, maybe...


Added on September 13, 2009, 11:03 pm
QUOTE(ar188 @ Sep 13 2009, 10:58 PM)
I think RX commented with similar conclusion while using jamo as well..  laugh.gif
*
So are we saying that is the weakest link? Anyone tried with Wharfy Diamond 9 series? If not impressive then I have to garu kepala liao...

This post has been edited by butter finger: Sep 13 2009, 11:03 PM
TSchewkl
post Sep 13 2009, 11:06 PM

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I'm using whole set of Diamond 9...but all of them are in boxes now...sweat.gif
zerorulez
post Sep 13 2009, 11:19 PM

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QUOTE(chewkl @ Sep 13 2009, 11:06 PM)
I'm using whole set of Diamond 9...but all of them are in boxes now...sweat.gif
*
take them out n setup ur 1909 quickly bro.. u r missing the Lossless feel. smile.gif.
ar188
post Sep 13 2009, 11:21 PM

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QUOTE(butter finger @ Sep 13 2009, 11:01 PM)
The first time I auditioned HD audio was at a shop, a closed demo room. Consists of Onkyo 9XX (can't rmb), Pana Bd60, Mirage speaker setup and Velo CHT12. To my surprise, not impressive, tested with Diehard 4.0. But the guy said he hasn't set up the system yet, maybe...


Added on September 13, 2009, 11:03 pm

So are we saying that is the weakest link? Anyone tried with Wharfy Diamond 9 series? If not impressive then I have to garu kepala liao...
*
I dunno.. even on Aego 2.1 system with RCA from Ps3 it sounds different when switching audio tracks to HD.. oh well, if can't hear difference also got good point, then just watch 1080p MKVs with DD/DTS audio should be fine, no need to waste money on blu-rays... biggrin.gif my 2 cents..
TSchewkl
post Sep 13 2009, 11:22 PM

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Cannot lah...now I'm staying in a birdcage...wait till i move to my atap house first. biggrin.gif

Dem sian everyday also go look at the 1909 box...tongue.gif
ar188
post Sep 13 2009, 11:24 PM

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QUOTE(chewkl @ Sep 13 2009, 11:22 PM)
Cannot lah...now I'm staying in a birdcage...wait till i move to my atap house first. biggrin.gif

Dem sian everyday also go look at the 1909 box...tongue.gif
*
how much you paid for the denon? 1.5k ?
butter finger
post Sep 13 2009, 11:25 PM

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Why? Too shabby? Upgraded? brows.gif
TSchewkl
post Sep 13 2009, 11:31 PM

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QUOTE(ar188 @ Sep 13 2009, 11:24 PM)
how much you paid for the denon? 1.5k ?
*
1.9k lah...cheap cheap niah...peasant toy blush.gif
zerorulez
post Sep 14 2009, 12:03 AM

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QUOTE(chewkl @ Sep 13 2009, 11:22 PM)
Cannot lah...now I'm staying in a birdcage...wait till i move to my atap house first. biggrin.gif

Dem sian everyday also go look at the 1909 box...tongue.gif
*
i cud come n unlock the birdcage for elite chew to fly free... tongue.gif


Added on September 14, 2009, 12:03 am
QUOTE(ar188 @ Sep 13 2009, 11:24 PM)
how much you paid for the denon? 1.5k ?
*
wei.. where got 1909 for 1.5 k.. tongue.gif

This post has been edited by zerorulez: Sep 14 2009, 12:03 AM
andrekua
post Sep 14 2009, 12:39 AM

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It might mean something if its music but for positional effect like DTS and DD, you probably end up "the tyre pitch is slightly higher and sharper" or "she sound sexier than she did in non-hd".
aiman04
post Sep 14 2009, 07:15 AM

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This discussion again ar? Everybody has read my view about this many times already, all know where I stand. tongue.gif

QUOTE(ar188 @ Sep 13 2009, 11:21 PM)
I dunno.. even on Aego 2.1 system with RCA from Ps3 it sounds different when switching audio tracks to HD.. oh well, if can't hear difference also got good point, then just watch 1080p MKVs with DD/DTS audio should be fine, no need to waste money on blu-rays...  biggrin.gif  my 2 cents..
*
Agreed bro. Anyway, can they tell the difference between the 1080p MKV and the original BD (PQ wise)? We did a test, and my friend immediately saw what he's been missing, even though it was not a side-by-side comparison.

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