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Systems Sciences Robots & AI, Now vs The Future

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dreamer101
post Jul 11 2009, 10:59 PM

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QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jul 11 2009, 07:30 PM)
I'm sure it's not pure trial and error, but also governed by instincts. But I'm also quite sure not all ants build structures which are identical, right? I'm sure the same species in different areas (with different environments) have slightly different methods of doing things. These differences are probably due to different results from trial and error.
*
Thinkingfox,

I assume that when you say INSTINCT, you meant what is programed in the DNA. Now, given that we have LITTLE KNOWLEDGE as what most of the human being's DNA do, how do we know that our INTELLIGENCE is not based on INSTINCT aka programed by DNA??

We do not know. Human intelligence might just be a computer will a huge program based on DNA's information.

Dreamer


Added on July 11, 2009, 11:02 pm
QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jul 11 2009, 07:30 PM)
I'm sure it's not pure trial and error, but also governed by instincts. But I'm also quite sure not all ants build structures which are identical, right? I'm sure the same species in different areas (with different environments) have slightly different methods of doing things. These differences are probably due to different results from trial and error.
*
Thinkingfox,

I assume that when you say INSTINCT, you meant what is programed in the DNA. Now, given that we have LITTLE KNOWLEDGE as what most of the human being's DNA do, how do we know that our INTELLIGENCE is not based on INSTINCT aka programed by DNA??

We do not know. Human intelligence might just be a computer will a huge program based on DNA's information.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Jul 11 2009, 11:02 PM
tgrrr
post Jul 12 2009, 01:24 PM

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QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jul 11 2009, 07:30 PM)
I'm sure it's not pure trial and error, but also governed by instincts. But I'm also quite sure not all ants build structures which are identical, right? I'm sure the same species in different areas (with different environments) have slightly different methods of doing things. These differences are probably due to different results from trial and error.
*
We haven't yet clearly define what is intelligence.
The definition of trial and error itself imply there could be some kind of learning process, whereby the same error is not repeated and this could very well indicate some kind of intelligence.
But many other animals could have the same kind of intelligence, except they are made of a single organism.

Anyway those termites monolith are regarded as one of the seven natural architectural wonder of the world.
The rough comparison given is humans would have to be building 1km tall skyscrapper but human can't scale walls and I'm no architect so I can't verify that.
TSfiredauz
post Jul 12 2009, 06:02 PM

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QUOTE(rainpocky @ Jul 9 2009, 08:43 AM)
I read a few months back that some group in Japan is trying to make a real working life size Gundam... as close as possible to a real one. But the furthest they got was on the movement, nothing else so far... must be a billions wasted on trying to make a robot ...
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rainpocky
post Jul 13 2009, 12:55 AM

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Thats pretty cool, but it doesnt walk yet. I can't wait to see the one that actually walks... but that would cost incredible amounts of money to do. I mean honda just has a walking on that costs billions, it would be astronomical to see this large one walking... wow.. thanks
lin00b
post Jul 13 2009, 01:04 AM

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i suppose to make it walk would just be a matter of upscaling asimo (yes, i make it sound a lot easier than it is); making it fly, and putting a fusion reactor in it, add a beam gun and lightsaber, thats the tough part
hazairi
post Jul 13 2009, 06:37 AM

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When I watched the terminator since last time until the sarah connor's chronicles, what i can see is that the most advantages that a cyborg has is emotional-proof.
If they have a target or objective they will do it without having the emotional or feelings affected their way. They have a strong mind because they don't have emotions.
This means a human who don't have emotions can be considered as robot? hehe

When I see all these kind of films (robots, cyborg, artificial intelligence) it made me want to learn more about myself.

This post has been edited by hazairi: Jul 13 2009, 06:40 AM
tentenko
post Jul 13 2009, 10:49 AM

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Developing AI brain is very hard..there are many method..one of them is the neural network..last time, my final project is based of neural agent using C++ for driving automation in simulation where it can learn from the past and copy it from sensor to its hard drive..damn hard..but manage to get thru..that is the only software part, but for the hardware..true humanoid form must mimic human body exactly to function like human..
Thinkingfox
post Jul 13 2009, 07:04 PM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Jul 11 2009, 10:59 PM)
Thinkingfox,

I assume that when you say INSTINCT, you meant what is programed in the DNA.  Now, given that we have LITTLE KNOWLEDGE as what most of the human being's DNA do, how do we know that our INTELLIGENCE is not based on INSTINCT aka programed by DNA??

We do not know.  Human intelligence might just be a computer will a huge program based on DNA's information.

Dreamer
*
We do not know for sure, yet. But our ability to learn and improve our technologies, shows, to some extent, that we do not know all at once. If the human intelligence is a computer with a huge programme based on DNA, why did we have to progress in stages? For example, if we knew that it would be more efficient to use electrical engines, why did we ever use steam-engined trains? And why did we use magnetic computer storage instead of using blue-ray or the best possible technology immediately?
dreamer101
post Jul 13 2009, 07:23 PM

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QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jul 13 2009, 07:04 PM)
We do not know for sure, yet. But our ability to learn and improve our technologies, shows, to some extent, that we do not know all at once. If the human intelligence is a computer with a huge programme based on DNA, why did we have to progress in stages? For example, if we knew that it would be more efficient to use electrical engines, why did we ever use steam-engined trains? And why did we use magnetic computer storage instead of using blue-ray or the best possible technology immediately?
*
Thinkingfox,

Based on the BEST available research, normal people only use 3% of their brain. Genius like Einstein use 6% of his brain. So, even in the best case, 94% of our brain is UNUSED. So, it is entirely possible that our so called learning is NOTHING but discovering and using part of our brain that we have not used.

For example, we do not know how to use electricity is because we have not discover the knowledge about electricity in our brain.

So, we do not know for sure. It STILL can be pre-programed....

Read MORE science fiction stories. All those possibilities have been explored extensively in fictions.

Dreamer
Thinkingfox
post Jul 13 2009, 08:12 PM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Jul 13 2009, 07:23 PM)
Thinkingfox,

Based on the BEST available research, normal people only use 3% of their brain.  Genius like Einstein use 6% of his brain.  So, even in the best case, 94% of our brain is UNUSED.  So, it is entirely possible that our so called learning is NOTHING but discovering and using part of our brain that we have not used.

For example, we do not know how to use electricity is because we have not discover the knowledge about electricity in our brain.

So, we do not know for sure.  It STILL can be pre-programed....

Read MORE science fiction stories.  All those possibilities have been explored extensively in fictions.

Dreamer
*
QUOTE
The human brain is complex. Along with performing millions of mundane acts, it composes concertos, issues manifestos and comes up with elegant solutions to equations. It's the wellspring of all human feelings, behaviors, experiences as well as the repository of memory and self-awareness. So it's no surprise that the brain remains a mystery unto itself.

Adding to that mystery is the contention that humans "only" employ 10 percent of their brain. If only regular folk could tap that other 90 percent, they too could become savants who remember π to the twenty-thousandth decimal place or perhaps even have telekinetic powers.

Though an alluring idea, the "10 percent myth" is so wrong it is almost laughable, says neurologist Barry Gordon at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine in Baltimore. Although there's no definitive culprit to pin the blame on for starting this legend, the notion has been linked to the American psychologist and author William James, who argued in The Energies of Men that "We are making use of only a small part of our possible mental and physical resources." It's also been associated with to Albert Einstein, who supposedly used it to explain his cosmic towering intellect.

...

Although it's true that at any given moment all of the brain's regions are not concurrently firing, brain researchers using imaging technology have shown that, like the body's muscles, most are continually active over a 24-hour period. "Evidence would show over a day you use 100 percent of the brain," says John Henley, a neurologist at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn. Even in sleep, areas such as the frontal cortex, which controls things like higher level thinking and self-awareness, or the somatosensory areas, which help people sense their surroundings, are active, Henley explains.

...

Take the simple act of pouring coffee in the morning: In walking toward the coffeepot, reaching for it, pouring the brew into the mug, even leaving extra room for cream, the occipital and parietal lobes, motor sensory and sensory motor cortices, basal ganglia, cerebellum and frontal lobes all activate. A lightning storm of neuronal activity occurs almost across the entire brain in the time span of a few seconds.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....ercent-of-brain
You said normal people only use 3% of the brain, may I know according to what method did the researchers arrive at that percentage?

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jul 13 2009, 08:18 PM
dreamer101
post Jul 13 2009, 08:31 PM

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QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jul 13 2009, 08:12 PM)
You said normal people only use 3% of the brain, may I know according to what method did the researchers arrive at that percentage?
*
Thinkingfox,

I thought they use MRI to scan the brain. But, the point is STILL VALID. We DO NOT KNOW how much of our brain is used. And, a lot of our so called "KNOWLEGDE" could be something that is pre-existing in our brain.

Dreamer
SUSbubblenetics
post Jul 13 2009, 09:16 PM

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AI and robotics are very exciting topics.

Thinkingfox
post Jul 13 2009, 11:17 PM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Jul 13 2009, 08:31 PM)
Thinkingfox,

I thought they use MRI to scan the brain.  But, the point is STILL VALID.  We DO NOT KNOW how much of our brain is used.  And, a lot of our so called "KNOWLEGDE" could be something that is pre-existing in our brain.

Dreamer
*
QUOTE
Although it's true that at any given moment all of the brain's regions are not concurrently firing, brain researchers using imaging technology have shown that, like the body's muscles, most are continually active over a 24-hour period. "Evidence would show over a day you use 100 percent of the brain," says John Henley, a neurologist at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn. Even in sleep, areas such as the frontal cortex, which controls things like higher level thinking and self-awareness, or the somatosensory areas, which help people sense their surroundings, are active, Henley explains.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....ercent-of-brain
QUOTE
So next time you hear someone say that they only use 10% of their brain, you can set them straight. Tell them:

"NOT TRUE; We use 100% of our brains."

If you find any news articles or advertisements using the 10% myth, please send them to me: Dr. Eric H. Chudler.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html
QUOTE
Brain Myths: How Much of Our Brain Do We Use?
by Dr. Karen on Tue 05 Jun 2007 07:19 PM EDT  |  Permanent Link  |  Cosmos
Question:
"I have been told that we only use 10% of our brain's capacity. Not sure all the reasons why we cannot access the other 90%. I want to. I wouldn't mind having a better memory!"

Answer:
There are differing opinions on this. Some say it's true and it's the result of a built-in redundancy. Not available until something goes wrong.

I personally am in the "I don't think so" school and there are a number of lines to evidence to support me on this. I suggest our brain is 100% active - with more brain activity in some areas at some times for some life activities.
http://neurofeedback.blogharbor.com/blog/_.../5/3001163.html
http://brainconnection.positscience.com/to...n=fa/brain-myth

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jul 13 2009, 11:26 PM
SeaGates
post Jul 14 2009, 12:22 AM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Jul 13 2009, 07:23 PM)
Thinkingfox,

Based on the BEST available research, normal people only use 3% of their brain.  Genius like Einstein use 6% of his brain.  So, even in the best case, 94% of our brain is UNUSED.  So, it is entirely possible that our so called learning is NOTHING but discovering and using part of our brain that we have not used.

For example, we do not know how to use electricity is because we have not discover the knowledge about electricity in our brain.

So, we do not know for sure.  It STILL can be pre-programed....

Read MORE science fiction stories.  All those possibilities have been explored extensively in fictions.

Dreamer
*
These figures were made up through MRI scan plotting area with activity peaks. If we only use 3-6% of our brain, why would we need such a big brain to start with?

A simple injury to one tiny part of your brain will kill you and I don't think that support the above mentioned theory at all.
dreamer101
post Jul 14 2009, 12:29 AM

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QUOTE(SeaGates @ Jul 14 2009, 12:22 AM)
These figures were made up through MRI scan plotting area with activity peaks. If we only use 3-6% of our brain, why would we need such a big brain to start with?

A simple injury to one tiny part of your brain will kill you and I don't think that support the above mentioned theory at all.
*
SeaGates,

<<A simple injury to one tiny part of your brain will kill you>>

A simple injury to CERTAIN part of your brain will kill you. While injury to other part of your brain will leave you alive but in a coma state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coma

So, we DO NOT USE ALL part of our brain to stay alive.

Dreamer
befitozi
post Jul 14 2009, 04:29 AM

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Maybe it is the way we define 100%.

We can say 100% of our brain which means that 100% of area/volume of the brain is used. But we CANNOT definitely say that we use 100% of the POTENTIAL capacity of the associated area.

How can we say that at a certain age we use 100% and yet later in our lives, we can still learn more things?


ps. keyword is potential, not capacity.
n3wb13
post Jul 14 2009, 04:54 PM

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Hi all,

I believe TS should seperate robotic and AI as 2 are different branch and can have their own discussion. Robot do not necessary to be intelligence as our large factory or a small mechanical arm can be consider a robot. While AI is completely another branch of science that research on human brain and how to emulate the human being intelligence.

I believe the 3% brain usage things is a misconceptions as there is a very limited proof on this. Many readings can be found on this and one can judge on his own.

I believe our 'science' is still in a very young age, and using this young knowledge to define another field of knowledge will certainly get a narrow results. Which is why i believe near future AI will be nothing more that a 'field specific'-intelligent-robot, compare to now 'field specific'-robot.

So back to the topic, unless we human matured on our thinkings, i always tend to agree with all the movie's ending, aka to save the earth and all the livings, robot had to resort on mass killing humans... tongue.gif
Thinkingfox
post Jul 14 2009, 05:23 PM

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QUOTE(befitozi @ Jul 14 2009, 04:29 AM)
Maybe it is the way we define 100%.

We can say 100% of our brain which means that 100% of area/volume of the brain is used. But we CANNOT definitely say that we use 100% of the POTENTIAL capacity of the associated area.

How can we say that at a certain age we use 100% and yet later in our lives, we can still learn more things?
ps. keyword is potential, not capacity.
*
But how do we quantify potential? Is it measurable? If the 3 or 10% is talking about potential, I'm really interested to know how they arrive at the figure because from my Googling, I have yet to stumble across any of such articles.
tgrrr
post Jul 14 2009, 06:04 PM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Jul 13 2009, 08:31 PM)
Thinkingfox,

I thought they use MRI to scan the brain.  But, the point is STILL VALID.  We DO NOT KNOW how much of our brain is used.  And, a lot of our so called "KNOWLEGDE" could be something that is pre-existing in our brain.

Dreamer
*
And we also do not know how our brain is being used.
I'm disappointed nobody is interested in memory-prediction framework hypothesis.
pleasuresaurus
post Jul 14 2009, 08:32 PM

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QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jul 14 2009, 05:23 PM)
But how do we quantify potential? Is it measurable? If the 3 or 10% is talking about potential, I'm really interested to know how they arrive at the figure because from my Googling, I have yet to stumble across any of such articles.
*
True. What sort of parameters justify this quantification? Or is it just blindly measuring neurons firing electrochemical signals in the brain, or heat generated from use??

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