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Systems Sciences Robots & AI, Now vs The Future

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dreamer101
post Jul 6 2009, 10:31 AM

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Folks,

Are you thinking like as SCIENTIST or ENGINEER??

A) SCIENTIST

This does not pass the TURING test. Hence, this is NOT AI.

B) ENGINEER

What can I use this for?? Who cares if this is not 100% AI??

http://store.irobot.com/category/index.jsp...09_floorwashing

I am waiting for the floor washing robot to be reliable enough for me to buy a few at home. And, when the price went down to USD $200, we can replace quite a few of those foreign maids.

Dreamer


dreamer101
post Jul 7 2009, 12:37 AM

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QUOTE(SeaGates @ Jul 6 2009, 11:57 PM)
Well, we're not talking about just any robot that fulfill a single role, it's more about robots that have sentient mind without artificial scripts programmed by human. biggrin.gif
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SeaGates,

Here we go again.. If it works, who cares whether it is SENTIENT??

Now, what is SENTIENT to begin with??

Awareness?? Consciousness?? Most human beings live like a robot to begin with. Aka with no awareness and consciousness.

Given that some human being only fill one role to begin with. Aka, sweep the floor. So, why should we expect the robot to go above that??

<<without artificial scripts programmed by human. biggrin.gif>>

We are BRAIN WASHED aka PROGRAMED by our society and education system aka human being. So, how different is this from robot anyhow??

You are DEBATING from philosophical standpoint aka SCIENTIST point of view. I am looking from Engineering aka FUNCTIONAL MODEL. If it works, I do not care what is inside.

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dreamer101
post Jul 7 2009, 11:25 AM

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QUOTE(vivienne85 @ Jul 7 2009, 11:17 AM)
and feelings too
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vivienne85,

1) How many human beings CHOOSE to feel to begin with??

2) Philosophically, how many human being choose to LIVE instead of pure existence only??

Are you LIVING now??

Most human beings ONLY exists. They live without DREAM or PASSION. They just exists. So, there is NO DIFFERENT between most human being and robot.

So, do you LIVE or EXIST?? Do you know the difference??

Before you start flaming me, I spent substantial amount of time studying psychotherapy. And. the MAJOR problem with most people is they CHOOSE not to feel.

Dreamer
dreamer101
post Jul 8 2009, 12:04 AM

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QUOTE(SeaGates @ Jul 7 2009, 11:45 PM)
I've said earlier, specialist robot is the best for what it do. The entire sentience thingy is related to creating a robot that THINKS like a human and not for only a specialist purpose.

We are programmed by our society and education system, but we can still defy and question what has been said. Given an AI with 10000 times the power of a single human brain, they wouldn't conceive basic thoughts that sparks many scientific breakthrough we've seen. AI is still a piece of software that will work only within it's parameter.

Well this topic is about robot and AI anyway, I was discussing about AI and since you do not care I don't think you should be discussing anything about it, no?
1) Everybody can feel, and inevitably they can't escape feeling everything around them. The only way to defy that law is to live in a state of denial but when it's in denial it's a world fabricated out of one's fantasy, that's no longer science.

2) Existence is physical, meaning if you're dead, people still know you. Living is part of existence.

You said most, that means not all, and with the option to CHOOSE to feel or not that's the biggest difference between us and an AI system. AI system can't be selective in what it absorb; A chess playing AI will never put up a bluff in a poker game UNLESS it's scripted to do so.
Biological creations are the best model only when they fit the intended function. I am saying a bi-pedal robot is the worst possible design in specialist function because they're made into jack of all trade.

I gave example when I said wheels, now tell me, is running on 2 legs faster than 2 wheels if you were tasked to move through every single city of Europe?
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SeaGates,

<<I was discussing about AI and since you do not care I don't think you should be discussing anything about it, no?>>

You as in all other SCIENTIST type is trying to create AI in an image of HUMAN BEING. But, why??

There are MORE THAN one way to view and define INTELLIGENCE.

From Engineers' point of view, as long as something FUNCTION intelligently, we do not care whether it use the same method as human being.

<<AI system can't be selective in what it absorb;>>

Who say so?? Human being IGNORE things and event all the times. That is ONE of the greatest sign of intelligence. Knowing what is important.

<<I gave example when I said wheels, now tell me, is running on 2 legs faster than 2 wheels if you were tasked to move through every single city of Europe?>>

If you are SUPERMAN, it won't matter.

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dreamer101
post Jul 8 2009, 10:56 AM

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QUOTE(lin00b @ Jul 8 2009, 09:55 AM)
true AI will need to be able filter out noise from information (ignore certain things, if you will) even more than humans due to their higher sensitivity sensors.

true AI will also need to notice things outside of their design parameters and report back anomalies. how that is to be achieve, i have no idea, perhaps some form of neural network decision making system.
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lin00b,

From a SCIENTIST POV, it is interesting to argue and define what TRUE AI is.

But, for an ENGINEER POV, FAKE AI or not close to 100% AI might be more useful.

For example, we may not be doing a TRUE 100% HUMAN EQUIVALENT robot. But, replacement mechanical heart is keeping many people alive.

So, the QUESTION is

A) Is it MORE POWERFUL and FUNCTIONAL to create 100% TRUE AI??

Or

B) Create something that work along human beings that EXPAND and AMPLIFIES human processing and thinking power??

The same question is posed on the robotic side too. Bionic arms and legs and so on...

SCIENTIST like to argue and debate until the hell freeze over.

Engineer tend to ask what give us BEST FUNCTION and PERFORMANCE with the technology that we have now.

I just want a robot to wash my floor. And, I am still waiting....

Dreamer



dreamer101
post Jul 9 2009, 10:04 AM

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QUOTE(SeaGates @ Jul 8 2009, 09:45 PM)
Why you asked? It's nature for human to explore every possibility. Why don't you ask the scientist who are pursuing the same thing too?

Yes you're right and you're just bringing back all my points that artificial intelligence is different from human intelligence(I already said something along that line in my 1st(2nd in thread) post).

Human being IGNORE things and event, but can an AI system do that, give enough confusing/clashing input to an AI system and it'll crash. Human simply takes a time out and slowly figure out everything. If I were to bet on whether an AI system or a human brain is able to come out with the theory of everything, I put my bet on the human brain. If you feed an AI system both law of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, it won't come up with anything like String Theory.

Scientist don't obey the rule of engineering that 'if it works, why fix it?' Science QUESTION everything. What is there to discuss here if everybody just say forget it since everything is working, why fix it?

And superman is the most irrelevant thing I've read in this thread so far. It's being totally ridiculous.
We're not discussing soul here, but human intelligence and comparison of AI to human intelligence.
Already answered you on the first quote.
Computing power is the shortcut to human like intelligence, the computer generates all the possible outcome of an event and choose the best. Very basic AI system still uses this pure brute force method.
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SeaGates,

<< Yes you're right and you're just bringing back all my points that artificial intelligence is different from human intelligence(I already said something along that line in my 1st(2nd in thread) post).

Human being IGNORE things and event, but can an AI system do that, give enough confusing/clashing input to an AI system and it'll crash. >>

You are using HUMAN INTELLIGENCE view point to judge AI. Is that the RIGHT WAY to do it??

Human has PROCESSING POWER running at low speed at much less than 1KHz. Computer is running at above 1GHz aka 1 million times faster. Human is good at ignore things and focus on key stuff. Computer is good at look at and processing multiple things very very fast. Those are just the basic differences.

So, if we want to use computer to function INTELLIGENTLY, we would not let computer work the same way as human. Aka emulating human being.

Are we going about the WRONG WAY to begin with?? Aka, this is NOT the best way to approach computer based INTELLIGENCE. We need to think outside the box of HUMAN INTELLIGENCE.

This has been going for 20+ years. And, we have seen very little break through in this area. We might be going the wrong way all this times.

I do not have the RIGHT answer. Intuitively, I feel that computer based intelligence is SUBSTANTIALLY different from any kind of human based intelligence in term of processing.

Dreamer


dreamer101
post Jul 9 2009, 07:08 PM

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QUOTE(lin00b @ Jul 9 2009, 12:08 PM)
thats why its ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE. ie, to emulate human intelligence. we already have computer intelligence.

first huddle is to find some algorithm to assign importance to stuff so the AI will know what to ignore, what to focus, what to KIV, and what to forward to seek advise from others.
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lin00b,

It is ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE. It is NOT ARTIFICIAL HUMAN INTELLIGENCE. So, it does not have to emulate HUMAN INTELLIGENCE. So, some people are studying INSECT INTELLIGENCE and try to emulate that.

Dreamer
dreamer101
post Jul 11 2009, 10:59 PM

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QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jul 11 2009, 07:30 PM)
I'm sure it's not pure trial and error, but also governed by instincts. But I'm also quite sure not all ants build structures which are identical, right? I'm sure the same species in different areas (with different environments) have slightly different methods of doing things. These differences are probably due to different results from trial and error.
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Thinkingfox,

I assume that when you say INSTINCT, you meant what is programed in the DNA. Now, given that we have LITTLE KNOWLEDGE as what most of the human being's DNA do, how do we know that our INTELLIGENCE is not based on INSTINCT aka programed by DNA??

We do not know. Human intelligence might just be a computer will a huge program based on DNA's information.

Dreamer


Added on July 11, 2009, 11:02 pm
QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jul 11 2009, 07:30 PM)
I'm sure it's not pure trial and error, but also governed by instincts. But I'm also quite sure not all ants build structures which are identical, right? I'm sure the same species in different areas (with different environments) have slightly different methods of doing things. These differences are probably due to different results from trial and error.
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Thinkingfox,

I assume that when you say INSTINCT, you meant what is programed in the DNA. Now, given that we have LITTLE KNOWLEDGE as what most of the human being's DNA do, how do we know that our INTELLIGENCE is not based on INSTINCT aka programed by DNA??

We do not know. Human intelligence might just be a computer will a huge program based on DNA's information.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Jul 11 2009, 11:02 PM
dreamer101
post Jul 13 2009, 07:23 PM

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QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jul 13 2009, 07:04 PM)
We do not know for sure, yet. But our ability to learn and improve our technologies, shows, to some extent, that we do not know all at once. If the human intelligence is a computer with a huge programme based on DNA, why did we have to progress in stages? For example, if we knew that it would be more efficient to use electrical engines, why did we ever use steam-engined trains? And why did we use magnetic computer storage instead of using blue-ray or the best possible technology immediately?
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Thinkingfox,

Based on the BEST available research, normal people only use 3% of their brain. Genius like Einstein use 6% of his brain. So, even in the best case, 94% of our brain is UNUSED. So, it is entirely possible that our so called learning is NOTHING but discovering and using part of our brain that we have not used.

For example, we do not know how to use electricity is because we have not discover the knowledge about electricity in our brain.

So, we do not know for sure. It STILL can be pre-programed....

Read MORE science fiction stories. All those possibilities have been explored extensively in fictions.

Dreamer
dreamer101
post Jul 13 2009, 08:31 PM

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QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jul 13 2009, 08:12 PM)
You said normal people only use 3% of the brain, may I know according to what method did the researchers arrive at that percentage?
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Thinkingfox,

I thought they use MRI to scan the brain. But, the point is STILL VALID. We DO NOT KNOW how much of our brain is used. And, a lot of our so called "KNOWLEGDE" could be something that is pre-existing in our brain.

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dreamer101
post Jul 14 2009, 12:29 AM

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QUOTE(SeaGates @ Jul 14 2009, 12:22 AM)
These figures were made up through MRI scan plotting area with activity peaks. If we only use 3-6% of our brain, why would we need such a big brain to start with?

A simple injury to one tiny part of your brain will kill you and I don't think that support the above mentioned theory at all.
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SeaGates,

<<A simple injury to one tiny part of your brain will kill you>>

A simple injury to CERTAIN part of your brain will kill you. While injury to other part of your brain will leave you alive but in a coma state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coma

So, we DO NOT USE ALL part of our brain to stay alive.

Dreamer

 

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