Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

Systems Sciences Robots & AI, Now vs The Future

views
     
SeaGates
post Jul 1 2009, 11:20 PM

Kisses to the world
Group Icon
VIP
1,780 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Somewhere


QUOTE(firedauz @ Jul 1 2009, 01:30 PM)
With the jaw-dropping magics of Hollywood portrait to all humans every year, I can't help to wonder how will the future looks like for robots & AI.
While some can argue that robots and AI are partly of two separate categories, this is where we discuss how 20-50 years down the road, whether those two are really different, or by then had merged into one entity.

On the general knowledge of the public, the opinions on the best robots today varies alot.
By usage, the best robots would be those in manufacturing factories, making cars and other jobs that would be troublesome for humans.
By research, perhaps its about those bi-pedal robots that were developed to mimic the human beings.

The same goes with AI.
Best of all AI? Perhaps its that chess computer.
Usage-wise? It depends again on what humans want them to do.

Then if we look into the future, its not possible that whatever we see in those sci-fi flicks, to become a reality.
From the human-like robots that is equipped with AI mimicking human emotions & mingle around with us everyday, to the human-robots/AI war possibility, due to the AI assuming position that humans are doing more harm to our planet than preserving them for the later generations.
*
bi pedal humanoid robot is probably the worst type of robot there is out there if you've ask me.

Why walk when you can put wheels on yourself? Why build a head when you can contain everything within a 'torso' unit and protect with tons and tons of armor?

Reason for them to exist is technologist want to make them more 'human'. Logical perspective into consideration like cost, efficiency etc. Humanoid robot IMO is best used as, guess what? A non-organic pet laugh.gif

Artificial Intelligence is well, artificial. It's all scripted and the robot simply follows a logic path. A scenario in I-Robot where the main character(Will Smith) fell into the water with another small kid. The robot rescued him instead of the kid because analysis worked out that he has a better chance of survival and in that kind of scenario, all AI with the same code/script/design will do the same thing. Human intelligences permit other outcome to such scenario even if we're given the odds of survival.

Self learning robot is still far from reality. Scientist claim they're able to make robot learn by themselves. I take another scenario. A self-learning robot picks up a cube, using sensor and determined it as a cube, what if I remove the programming that was placed inside of it's processor before activation to recognize cube? Well, the bot can take out the encycloped... oh wait, do they even know what a book is?

What's behind the scene that drives human intelligence is something eluded scientist. I don't believe we're anywhere near in developing it, let alone perfecting it. Robots and AI still need the creator, us(humans) to give them the power of thought. The infamous fictional Skynet can be a reality one day, it's dangerous to have too much intelligence(even artificial one) minus the proper amount of humanity backing it up.
SeaGates
post Jul 6 2009, 11:57 PM

Kisses to the world
Group Icon
VIP
1,780 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Somewhere


QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Jul 6 2009, 10:31 AM)
Folks,

Are you thinking like as SCIENTIST or ENGINEER??

A) SCIENTIST

This does not pass the TURING test.  Hence, this is NOT AI.

B) ENGINEER

What can I use this for?? Who cares if this is not 100% AI??

http://store.irobot.com/category/index.jsp...09_floorwashing

I am waiting for the floor washing robot to be reliable enough for me to buy a few at home.  And, when the price went down to USD $200, we can replace quite a few of those foreign maids.

Dreamer
*
Well, we're not talking about just any robot that fulfill a single role, it's more about robots that have sentient mind without artificial scripts programmed by human. biggrin.gif
SeaGates
post Jul 7 2009, 11:45 PM

Kisses to the world
Group Icon
VIP
1,780 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Somewhere


QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Jul 7 2009, 12:37 AM)
SeaGates,

Here we go again.. If it works, who cares whether it is SENTIENT??

Now, what is SENTIENT to begin with??

Awareness?? Consciousness?? Most human beings live like a robot to begin with.  Aka with no awareness and consciousness.

Given that some human being only fill one role to begin with.  Aka, sweep the floor.  So, why should we expect the robot to go above that??

<<without artificial scripts programmed by human. biggrin.gif>>

We are BRAIN WASHED aka PROGRAMED by our society and education system aka human being.  So, how different is this from robot anyhow??

You are DEBATING from philosophical standpoint aka SCIENTIST point of view.  I am looking from Engineering aka FUNCTIONAL MODEL.  If it works, I do not care what is inside.

Dreamer
*
I've said earlier, specialist robot is the best for what it do. The entire sentience thingy is related to creating a robot that THINKS like a human and not for only a specialist purpose.

We are programmed by our society and education system, but we can still defy and question what has been said. Given an AI with 10000 times the power of a single human brain, they wouldn't conceive basic thoughts that sparks many scientific breakthrough we've seen. AI is still a piece of software that will work only within it's parameter.

Well this topic is about robot and AI anyway, I was discussing about AI and since you do not care I don't think you should be discussing anything about it, no?

QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Jul 7 2009, 11:25 AM)
vivienne85,

1) How many human beings CHOOSE to feel to begin with??

2) Philosophically, how many human being choose to LIVE instead of pure existence only??

Are you LIVING now??

Most human beings ONLY exists.  They live without DREAM or PASSION.  They just exists.  So, there is NO DIFFERENT between most human being and robot.

So, do you LIVE or EXIST??  Do you know the difference??

Before you start flaming me, I spent substantial amount of time studying psychotherapy.  And. the MAJOR problem with most people is they CHOOSE not to feel.

Dreamer
*
1) Everybody can feel, and inevitably they can't escape feeling everything around them. The only way to defy that law is to live in a state of denial but when it's in denial it's a world fabricated out of one's fantasy, that's no longer science.

2) Existence is physical, meaning if you're dead, people still know you. Living is part of existence.

You said most, that means not all, and with the option to CHOOSE to feel or not that's the biggest difference between us and an AI system. AI system can't be selective in what it absorb; A chess playing AI will never put up a bluff in a poker game UNLESS it's scripted to do so.

QUOTE(igor_is300 @ Jul 7 2009, 06:43 PM)
Biological creations are the best model ever. Be it physically(hardware) or mentally(software).  Why aren't human or any living objects moving with wheels-like limb in the first place ?

One of the good example I found is the one developed by Boston Dynamics.


Even when we talk about A.I , an ideal A.I itself is trying to imitate some/little human mind/brain functions like you said self learning.

I like the way Michael Crichton wrote about A.I and nanotechnology in Prey.  smile.gif
*
Biological creations are the best model only when they fit the intended function. I am saying a bi-pedal robot is the worst possible design in specialist function because they're made into jack of all trade.

I gave example when I said wheels, now tell me, is running on 2 legs faster than 2 wheels if you were tasked to move through every single city of Europe?
SeaGates
post Jul 8 2009, 09:45 PM

Kisses to the world
Group Icon
VIP
1,780 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Somewhere


QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Jul 8 2009, 12:04 AM)
SeaGates,

<<I was discussing about AI and since you do not care I don't think you should be discussing anything about it, no?>>

You as in all other SCIENTIST type is trying to create AI in an image of HUMAN BEING.  But, why??

There are MORE THAN one way to view and define INTELLIGENCE.

From Engineers' point of view, as long as something FUNCTION intelligently, we do not care whether it use the same method as human being.

<<AI system can't be selective in what it absorb;>>

Who say so?? Human being IGNORE things and event all the times.  That is ONE of the greatest sign of intelligence.  Knowing what is important.

<<I gave example when I said wheels, now tell me, is running on 2 legs faster than 2 wheels if you were tasked to move through every single city of Europe?>>

If you are SUPERMAN, it won't matter.

Dreamer
*
Why you asked? It's nature for human to explore every possibility. Why don't you ask the scientist who are pursuing the same thing too?

Yes you're right and you're just bringing back all my points that artificial intelligence is different from human intelligence(I already said something along that line in my 1st(2nd in thread) post).

Human being IGNORE things and event, but can an AI system do that, give enough confusing/clashing input to an AI system and it'll crash. Human simply takes a time out and slowly figure out everything. If I were to bet on whether an AI system or a human brain is able to come out with the theory of everything, I put my bet on the human brain. If you feed an AI system both law of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, it won't come up with anything like String Theory.

Scientist don't obey the rule of engineering that 'if it works, why fix it?' Science QUESTION everything. What is there to discuss here if everybody just say forget it since everything is working, why fix it?

And superman is the most irrelevant thing I've read in this thread so far. It's being totally ridiculous.

QUOTE(Deadlocks @ Jul 8 2009, 03:56 AM)
Guys. Dreamer 101 has a point.

The question here is simple:

Just because you're a human, what makes you think that you have a soul, compared to an A.I. built robot?
*
We're not discussing soul here, but human intelligence and comparison of AI to human intelligence.


QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Jul 8 2009, 10:56 AM)
lin00b,

From a SCIENTIST POV, it is interesting to argue and define what TRUE AI is.

But, for an ENGINEER POV, FAKE AI or not close to 100% AI might be more useful.

For example, we may not be doing a TRUE 100% HUMAN EQUIVALENT robot.  But, replacement mechanical heart is keeping many people alive.

So, the QUESTION is

A) Is it MORE POWERFUL and FUNCTIONAL to create 100% TRUE AI??

Or

B) Create something that work along human beings that EXPAND and AMPLIFIES human processing and thinking power??

The same question is posed on the robotic side too.  Bionic arms and legs and so on...

SCIENTIST like to argue and debate until the hell freeze over.

Engineer tend to ask what give us BEST FUNCTION and PERFORMANCE with the technology that we have now.

I just want a robot to wash my floor.  And, I am still waiting....

Dreamer
*
Already answered you on the first quote.

QUOTE(tgrrr @ Jul 8 2009, 01:43 PM)
Assuming we managed to do that, doesn't that mean we just cloned the human brain? Would you call that artificial intelligence or just an artificially created human brain?
IMHO I think the fundamental advantage of AI is the ability to learn and adapt to new task/environment.
Application wise this means the same floor washing robot can also be taught to mow the lawn or a variety of other tasks by some simple instructions/examples similar to how you'd perhaps teach a human child. Of course from the Engineering POV, Dreamer's right, AI hasn't reach such level of technology yet to be applicable.


Added on July 8, 2009, 3:55 pm
So are you taking the middle path?
A lot of computing power appears to be great but is it the essential ingredient in order to have intelligence?
As a programmer I do not see how by just having much more computing power is considered as intelligent since the computer only executes what it is programmed to do.
Some have suggested it's not the amount of teraflops of computing power but the amount of information that can be stored, retrieved and reconstructed that give rise to intelligence i.e. the memory prediction hypothesis.
If such is really the case, then the amount of computing power becomes irrelevant as to when we'll be able to develop human-equivalent AI. We may just need the right neural structure or perhaps the right language to write an AI program.
No, the burden of proof would be on the proponent of the idea to proof that it has the intelligence equivalent of a human, or it's just another faster computer or fancy machinery. That's what the Turing Test is for - to test for machine intelligence.
*
Computing power is the shortcut to human like intelligence, the computer generates all the possible outcome of an event and choose the best. Very basic AI system still uses this pure brute force method.

SeaGates
post Jul 14 2009, 12:22 AM

Kisses to the world
Group Icon
VIP
1,780 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Somewhere


QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Jul 13 2009, 07:23 PM)
Thinkingfox,

Based on the BEST available research, normal people only use 3% of their brain.  Genius like Einstein use 6% of his brain.  So, even in the best case, 94% of our brain is UNUSED.  So, it is entirely possible that our so called learning is NOTHING but discovering and using part of our brain that we have not used.

For example, we do not know how to use electricity is because we have not discover the knowledge about electricity in our brain.

So, we do not know for sure.  It STILL can be pre-programed....

Read MORE science fiction stories.  All those possibilities have been explored extensively in fictions.

Dreamer
*
These figures were made up through MRI scan plotting area with activity peaks. If we only use 3-6% of our brain, why would we need such a big brain to start with?

A simple injury to one tiny part of your brain will kill you and I don't think that support the above mentioned theory at all.

 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0233sec    0.85    6 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 30th November 2025 - 09:54 PM