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 Insurance + investment are bad financial decisions

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cic.lemur
post May 12 2009, 12:04 PM

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I agree with OP, investmet should be investment, insurance should be insurance.

I'm not too sure about the process, but I think you take insurance, you are doing so collectively, so if one guy die you'll be paying for him from your share. Also there will always be some people who will try to take advantage of the system by trying to claim for everything. Collective insurance is a good thing, but if you start thinking of it as an investment then donno what would happen, just pray not too many people die or get accident.

I started by getting some insurance, although they claim to pay premium, I didn't really care about that. Since I just started work and poor, I just want some cover if I get accident and get cacat, at least I'll get a bit of money. After that I just invest in normal investment and save up, so now if I get accident my normal investments can cover me, and don't have to worry about insurance companies citing technicalities in order not to play compensation.

For me this is logic, I came across a few agents pushing hard their insurance cum investments policy to me, when I explain why I don't want they smile and agree.

constant
post May 12 2009, 01:18 PM

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[quote=dreamer101,May 10 2009, 11:29 PM]
*

[/quote]

MakNok,

It is STUPID for a person to be 100% invested in stock market. It is as simple as that.

Any normal and common financial planning will say

A) Have 3 to 6 months of emergency fund in bank / FD

B) Keep the money that you need within 5 years in fixed income aka bond.

Now, if a person follow rule (A) and (B), a person will NEVER lose everything with a stock market crashes. And, even if the stock market crashes, the person has 5 years to recover from that.

My favorite saying is INVESTMENT means that you can go to sleep and do nothing for 5 years and you will be fine. So, by definition, your investment needs to be able to survive a stock market crashes.

Dreamer
*

[/quote]

How to invest in bonds? Aren't they for high net worth ppl?
TerrorOne
post May 12 2009, 04:50 PM

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any latest respond from the particular insurance company?
dreamer101
post May 12 2009, 07:00 PM

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[quote=constant,May 12 2009, 01:18 PM]
MakNok,

It is STUPID for a person to be 100% invested in stock market. It is as simple as that.

Any normal and common financial planning will say

A) Have 3 to 6 months of emergency fund in bank / FD

B) Keep the money that you need within 5 years in fixed income aka bond.

Now, if a person follow rule (A) and (B), a person will NEVER lose everything with a stock market crashes. And, even if the stock market crashes, the person has 5 years to recover from that.

My favorite saying is INVESTMENT means that you can go to sleep and do nothing for 5 years and you will be fine. So, by definition, your investment needs to be able to survive a stock market crashes.

Dreamer
*

[/quote]

How to invest in bonds? Aren't they for high net worth ppl?
*

[/quote]

constant,

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=BSV&.yficrumb=auuw5dfuvav

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/lazy-port...mpetition-again


I do not buy individual bond and stock except one stock. I buy stock index fund and bond index fund. For someone in Malaysia to do this, they need to open US Stock brokerage A/C to buy ETF. You need a few K in USD to do this.

Dreamer

TSimtrobin
post May 13 2009, 01:03 AM

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QUOTE(TerrorOne @ May 12 2009, 04:50 PM)
any latest respond from the particular insurance company?
*
They sent me a letter, which is basically citing poor investment in the 1997 crisis, and a whole bunch of information which doesn't explain anything. I reread the insurance terms in more detail, frankly there is this Compound Bonus Revision, which is the investment, and it is subject to deductation fees and expense which are unstated. Bascially what I'm reading is they can deduct any amount based on what they like as expenses.

I'm gonna to write a complain letter to bank negara sometime end of the month when I find more free time, and maybe find a lawyer to take the case up. Any recommendations?
cheapmacchiato
post May 13 2009, 09:40 AM

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Hi guys, I read one article saying the insurance company can increase ILP yearly premium as they want in a few years time. in accordance to the insurance charges schedule.

Is this true?..

I just bought an ILP a year ago and came across the article yesterday. I am afraid that my premium will increase in a few years time.
Dannyl
post May 13 2009, 10:48 AM

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Sorry newbie here, but when it says maturity, does it mean you withdraw the lump sum of cash and the policy is no longer valid?
august.decision
post May 13 2009, 02:55 PM

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umm....this seem worrying to me le....
i brought 1 insurance recently...think is life insurance...purpose same as the mortgage insurance...but this one got cash value...if compare to the mortgage insurance....
the agent said will at least get 5% interest....
if house loan finished..let say 20 years......at least can take back the $$ put in for about 20 years...mayb will loose some $$ only if compare to mortgage insurance....
dono how true is it....
fbs
post May 13 2009, 04:58 PM

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August, i think u bought a life insurance to protect your loan instead if MRTA. It is true as life insurance have cash value and it is accumulated and also has compounding interest. Just that the premium will uch more higher than MRTA which is only a lump-sum amount.

For me, i don't think that ILP s a good product. I agree with TS that insurance is insurance & investment is investment. The former is for protection while the latter is for wealth accumulation. Moreover, from what i learnt, not the whole amount of ILP premium is invested. THe insurance company will deduct the admin fees and few charges and the leftover only will be invested and there was an agent from "G3" told me that usually the amount invested is just a small portion. And worse is that the amount invested will decrease fom time to time as the fees charged will increase when one is getting older. This was what that he told me and i don't know how true it is.

Actually I dislike those insurance agents nowadays claimed that they are actually "financial planner". That's bullshit. I can accept if they claim themselves as insurance planner where they plan different quotation according to people's needs. But a true financial planner is to help people to ahchieve their financial goals, not just protection. Furthermore, i believe that there is no insurance company that is best in the market. I believe that each of them will have their own strength where maybe this will have a better medical card while the other will have a better life insurance policy. So, as a financial planner, one should have recommend their clients to get the products that suits him/her best. So, PLEASE don't claim yourself as financial planner if you are just merely an insurance agent.

This post has been edited by fbs: May 14 2009, 12:00 AM
chew_ronnie
post May 13 2009, 10:25 PM

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QUOTE(cheapmacchiato @ May 13 2009, 09:40 AM)
Hi guys, I read one article saying the insurance company can increase ILP yearly premium as they want in a few years time. in accordance to the insurance charges schedule.

Is this true?..

I just bought an ILP a year ago and came across  the article yesterday. I am afraid that my premium will increase in a few years time.
*
Hi,

Nowadays, the insurance companies states very clearly in their contracts that the Cost of Insurance (COI) is not guaranteed meaning that insurance companies has the rights to increase their premiums prior 90 days written notice to their policy holders.

Try to read up your policy to find this clause and i've surveyed AIA, Prudential, Allianz all has this clause.


Added on May 13, 2009, 10:29 pm
QUOTE(august.decision @ May 13 2009, 02:55 PM)
umm....this seem worrying to me le....
i brought 1 insurance recently...think is life insurance...purpose same as the mortgage insurance...but this one got cash value...if compare to the mortgage insurance....
the agent said will at least get 5% interest....
if house loan finished..let say 20 years......at least can take back the $$ put in for about 20 years...mayb will loose some $$ only if compare to mortgage insurance....
dono how true is it....
*
Hi August,

Do give a look at your policy, and you look if you can find these 2 clause:
1. Participating policy with reversionary bonus (eg whole life and endownment)
2. Non-participating policy (eg investment linked and term life)


Added on May 13, 2009, 10:35 pm
QUOTE(Dannyl @ May 13 2009, 10:48 AM)
Sorry newbie here, but when it says maturity, does it mean you withdraw the lump sum of cash and the policy is no longer valid?
*
In endownment policies, when its stated maturity in the policy, then what you say is true.

But for whole life policies with FULLY PAID UP OPTION, i'm referring to short term saving plans where you can opt to take the cash as annuities up to a certain age normally between 85 to 90.

But if agents who say its maturity without black n white, then becareful.

This post has been edited by chew_ronnie: May 13 2009, 10:35 PM
brian3455
post May 13 2009, 11:41 PM

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i've studied one of Allianz's new ILP, this is what i understand...

monthly premium consist of :
1. allocated portion (65% @ 1st year, 90% @ 2nd year, 100% @ 3rd year onwards)
2. unallocated portion (100% minus allocated portion, this is to cover insurance company's cost, as well as the bank's commission)

allocated portion will goes to:
- RM5.00 per month for service charge
- Cost of Insurance = risk factor / 1000 x sum assured / 12 months (risk factor differs from company to company, your agent SHOULD be able to tell you)
- the remaining balance will goes to unit purchase in selected funds

e.g. cost of insurance : 1.18 (risk factor for 30 yr old non-smoker) / 1000 x 100k (sum assured) / 12 months = RM9.84 per month.

make sure your agents are transparent enough to tell you where have your every single cent spent, to avoid disappointment like what have happened to the ts.

answering to post#50 above :
since risk factor will increase in according to age, hence cost of insurance will increase when from year to year.

however, cost of insurance increase =/= premium increase. i.e. your monthly premium will remain unchanged as long as your policy does not lapse (for allianz's case, up to 100 yr old). which means your money left (i.e. allocated portion - RM5 - COI) will decrease over times.

happy insuring smile.gif

This post has been edited by brian3455: May 13 2009, 11:45 PM
chew_ronnie
post May 13 2009, 11:51 PM

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QUOTE(brian3455 @ May 13 2009, 11:41 PM)
i've studied one of Allianz's new ILP, this is what i understand...

monthly premium consist of :
1. allocated portion (65% @ 1st year, 90% @ 2nd year, 100% @ 3rd year onwards)
2. unallocated portion (100% minus allocated portion, this is to cover insurance company's cost, as well as the bank's commission)

allocated portion will goes to:
- RM5.00 per month for service charge
- Cost of Insurance = risk factor / 1000 x sum assured / 12 months (risk factor differs from company to company, your agent SHOULD be able to tell you)
- the remaining balance will goes to unit purchase in selected funds

e.g. cost of insurance : 1.18 (risk factor for 30 yr old non-smoker) / 1000 x 100k (sum assured) / 12 months = RM9.84 per month.

make sure your agents are transparent enough to tell you where have your every single cent spent, to avoid disappointment like what have happened to the ts.

answering to post#50 above :
since risk factor will increase in according to age, hence cost of insurance will increase when from year to year.

however, cost of insurance increase =/= premium increase. i.e. your monthly premium will remain unchanged as long as your policy does not lapse (for allianz's case, up to 100 yr old). which means your money left (i.e. allocated portion - RM5 - COI) will decrease over times.

happy insuring smile.gif
*
Hi there,

I think what you are mentioning here is a Bankassurance product hence the allocation. Allianz's most popular ILP is the POWERLINK policy that has the following allocation:
1st and 2nd yr: 45% allocation for insurance premium
3rd and 4th yr: 80%
5th and 6th yr: 85%
7th yr and above: 100%

CHeck this out: https://www.allianz.com.my/cls/content.aspx?t=847&m=0#top

rgds,
Ronnie Fr Allianz

This post has been edited by chew_ronnie: May 14 2009, 12:00 AM
fbs
post May 14 2009, 12:03 AM

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QUOTE(chew_ronnie @ May 13 2009, 11:51 PM)
Hi there,

I think what you are mentioning here is a Bankassurance product hence the allocation. Allianz's most popular ILP is the POWERLINK policy that has the following allocation:
1st and 2nd yr: 45% allocation for insurance premium
3rd and 4th yr: 80%
5th and 6th yr: 85%
7th yr and above: 100%

CHeck this out: https://www.allianz.com.my/cls/content.aspx?t=847&m=0#top

rgds,
Ronnie Fr Allianz
*
do you mean that 7th year and above the total amount we paid yearlyis for premium and not to invest?
Means only some portion of the premium during 1st to 6th year will be invested?
chew_ronnie
post May 14 2009, 10:49 AM

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QUOTE(fbs @ May 14 2009, 12:03 AM)
do you mean that 7th year and above the total amount we paid yearlyis for premium and not to invest?
Means only some portion of the premium during 1st to 6th year will be invested?
*
Hi fbs,

The allocation means, say 1st yr: 45% goes to insurance allocation meaning 55% is gone for admin fee and bla bla bla. This 45% shall be invested in Allianz's unit trust funds via buying units. N lets say one unit cost RM 1 for illustration purpose, and every RM100 you put in as premium, RM45 will be used to buy 45 units (@ RM1/unit). Then the insurance Allianz will purchase insurance protection (cost of insurance) in terms of units from the RM45, say based on your risk factor you mentioned say RM25 for life insurance, hence Allianz will deduct 25 units from your 45 units. The remaining 20 units is your balance cash values. This is repeated month by month.

So at the 7th year, when you pay RM100, you'll get 100 units assuming the unit price is still the same. At this point of time the cost of insurance shall be higher already because of the age increase, so say at RM 33 for the same sum assured. THis means Allianz will deduct 33 units from 100, so the remaining is 67 units in your investment account.

Every investment linked products works this way only the allocation rates and cost of insurance differs from companies.

Hope this will help you.

rgds
fbs
post May 14 2009, 11:47 AM

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thanks for your reply...
now i understand d...
cheapmacchiato
post May 14 2009, 01:58 PM

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Thanks for the reply guys....

Any advice for current ILP holders?

Should I surrender my ILP, since I am afraid the premiums will be too much for me too bear in the future, and start looking for buy Term or whole insurance etc..

wodenus
post May 14 2009, 02:02 PM

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QUOTE(cheapmacchiato @ May 14 2009, 01:58 PM)
Thanks for the reply guys....

Any advice for current ILP holders?

Should  I surrender my ILP, since I am afraid the premiums will be too much for me too bear in the future, and start looking for buy Term or  whole insurance etc..
*
Start already don't surrender la... waste money only.
fbs
post May 14 2009, 02:11 PM

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QUOTE(cheapmacchiato @ May 14 2009, 01:58 PM)
Thanks for the reply guys....

Any advice for current ILP holders?

Should  I surrender my ILP, since I am afraid the premiums will be too much for me too bear in the future, and start looking for buy Term or  whole insurance etc..
*
Check the duration of your policy, compare the current premium and the premium for term or life insurance with the same protection...
b00n
post May 15 2009, 02:29 AM

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I have stated some point for ponder in another topic.
Since it's relevant, maybe you guys can think and discuss about it:
QUOTE(b00n @ May 14 2009, 12:08 PM)
In the above, you're just stating the fact that ILP is meant for those "lazy" ppl which do not bother to get their own hands dirty.
ILP also invest in funds - equities and money markets but one person is not in control of the switching or cashing out. It's fully dependable on the judgment of the specific fund manager.
Your only strong point is saying that normal ppl could not match the likes of these fund managers which is again just an excuse for those "lazy" ppl.
If you ask ppl like me or even dreamer, we never hoped for "savings" to help grow money. (dreamer may correct me if I made the wrong assumption on behalf of him)
Savings to me is yeah....savings and for future emergency use. Interest earned is a surplus as long as I don't loose that amount of money (let's not talk about the risk of inflation risk involved here). Heck, I could keep cash stored in my own house safe box and that's savings to me.

Investment is a separate play altogether for me. I'm clear on the risk and what is expected, also clear on what I want to achieve and when it's achievable.

Insurance is only protection for me. I also do not expect insurance as a way for me to increase my net worth. It's a surplus if it does.

Thus to me, I don not mix these 3 together. Reason being if I lose in my investment portfolio, I still have my savings and insurance.
If for some reason, I've claimed my insurance; I still have my savings to support me and investment which helps me generate income.
I don't want to be in the position where I lose out in everything when one of the "bundled" product failed. i.e. when I claimed my insurance, my ILP automatically is gone; so what's my future? Savings and investment is gone with it if one relies solely on ILP as a all for one tool for Savings (or forced savings which sales like to propagate) + Insurance + Investment.

You may call me old fashion. Guess a lot of younger investors are terming me as old fashion although I'm only in my 30s.
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chew_ronnie
post May 15 2009, 09:13 AM

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QUOTE(cheapmacchiato @ May 14 2009, 01:58 PM)
Thanks for the reply guys....

Any advice for current ILP holders?

Should  I surrender my ILP, since I am afraid the premiums will be too much for me too bear in the future, and start looking for buy Term or  whole insurance etc..
*
What is ur age at the moment? N how long is the duration of ur ILP? If you are young say less than 35, ILP is still the cheapest insurance policy you can go, even a term life policy cant match the premium. Also another issue is the cost of insurance meaning to say that if your insurance coverage is very high (cost of insurance is very high) then you may have to have a look in it.

rgds,


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