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 Insurance + investment are bad financial decisions

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chew_ronnie
post May 8 2009, 06:38 PM

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[quote=MakNok,May 8 2009, 04:09 PM]

All agents always ask people to keep invest invest invest and by the time you retire...you should have a handsome returns..which i say Bullshit..
i got a colleague who invest thru this agent(about 10 years) and deligently invest every 3 month thru EPF and yet in the end when he retire last month..

Hi there,

Pls dun look at high returns in ILP plans, ILP is designed in a way that you get the most coverage with the lowest premium (0 to 45 yrs), cos the cost of insurance will shoot up exponentially in the latter years so basically you get nothing or 10 to 20% of what you've put in at the end of the day.

For investment, go for UT.

For protection, get ILP or Whole Life or TermLife.

For savings, go for insurance endownment policies. That's it.

Ronnie
chew_ronnie
post May 13 2009, 10:25 PM

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QUOTE(cheapmacchiato @ May 13 2009, 09:40 AM)
Hi guys, I read one article saying the insurance company can increase ILP yearly premium as they want in a few years time. in accordance to the insurance charges schedule.

Is this true?..

I just bought an ILP a year ago and came across  the article yesterday. I am afraid that my premium will increase in a few years time.
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Hi,

Nowadays, the insurance companies states very clearly in their contracts that the Cost of Insurance (COI) is not guaranteed meaning that insurance companies has the rights to increase their premiums prior 90 days written notice to their policy holders.

Try to read up your policy to find this clause and i've surveyed AIA, Prudential, Allianz all has this clause.


Added on May 13, 2009, 10:29 pm
QUOTE(august.decision @ May 13 2009, 02:55 PM)
umm....this seem worrying to me le....
i brought 1 insurance recently...think is life insurance...purpose same as the mortgage insurance...but this one got cash value...if compare to the mortgage insurance....
the agent said will at least get 5% interest....
if house loan finished..let say 20 years......at least can take back the $$ put in for about 20 years...mayb will loose some $$ only if compare to mortgage insurance....
dono how true is it....
*
Hi August,

Do give a look at your policy, and you look if you can find these 2 clause:
1. Participating policy with reversionary bonus (eg whole life and endownment)
2. Non-participating policy (eg investment linked and term life)


Added on May 13, 2009, 10:35 pm
QUOTE(Dannyl @ May 13 2009, 10:48 AM)
Sorry newbie here, but when it says maturity, does it mean you withdraw the lump sum of cash and the policy is no longer valid?
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In endownment policies, when its stated maturity in the policy, then what you say is true.

But for whole life policies with FULLY PAID UP OPTION, i'm referring to short term saving plans where you can opt to take the cash as annuities up to a certain age normally between 85 to 90.

But if agents who say its maturity without black n white, then becareful.

This post has been edited by chew_ronnie: May 13 2009, 10:35 PM
chew_ronnie
post May 13 2009, 11:51 PM

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QUOTE(brian3455 @ May 13 2009, 11:41 PM)
i've studied one of Allianz's new ILP, this is what i understand...

monthly premium consist of :
1. allocated portion (65% @ 1st year, 90% @ 2nd year, 100% @ 3rd year onwards)
2. unallocated portion (100% minus allocated portion, this is to cover insurance company's cost, as well as the bank's commission)

allocated portion will goes to:
- RM5.00 per month for service charge
- Cost of Insurance = risk factor / 1000 x sum assured / 12 months (risk factor differs from company to company, your agent SHOULD be able to tell you)
- the remaining balance will goes to unit purchase in selected funds

e.g. cost of insurance : 1.18 (risk factor for 30 yr old non-smoker) / 1000 x 100k (sum assured) / 12 months = RM9.84 per month.

make sure your agents are transparent enough to tell you where have your every single cent spent, to avoid disappointment like what have happened to the ts.

answering to post#50 above :
since risk factor will increase in according to age, hence cost of insurance will increase when from year to year.

however, cost of insurance increase =/= premium increase. i.e. your monthly premium will remain unchanged as long as your policy does not lapse (for allianz's case, up to 100 yr old). which means your money left (i.e. allocated portion - RM5 - COI) will decrease over times.

happy insuring smile.gif
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Hi there,

I think what you are mentioning here is a Bankassurance product hence the allocation. Allianz's most popular ILP is the POWERLINK policy that has the following allocation:
1st and 2nd yr: 45% allocation for insurance premium
3rd and 4th yr: 80%
5th and 6th yr: 85%
7th yr and above: 100%

CHeck this out: https://www.allianz.com.my/cls/content.aspx?t=847&m=0#top

rgds,
Ronnie Fr Allianz

This post has been edited by chew_ronnie: May 14 2009, 12:00 AM
chew_ronnie
post May 14 2009, 10:49 AM

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QUOTE(fbs @ May 14 2009, 12:03 AM)
do you mean that 7th year and above the total amount we paid yearlyis for premium and not to invest?
Means only some portion of the premium during 1st to 6th year will be invested?
*
Hi fbs,

The allocation means, say 1st yr: 45% goes to insurance allocation meaning 55% is gone for admin fee and bla bla bla. This 45% shall be invested in Allianz's unit trust funds via buying units. N lets say one unit cost RM 1 for illustration purpose, and every RM100 you put in as premium, RM45 will be used to buy 45 units (@ RM1/unit). Then the insurance Allianz will purchase insurance protection (cost of insurance) in terms of units from the RM45, say based on your risk factor you mentioned say RM25 for life insurance, hence Allianz will deduct 25 units from your 45 units. The remaining 20 units is your balance cash values. This is repeated month by month.

So at the 7th year, when you pay RM100, you'll get 100 units assuming the unit price is still the same. At this point of time the cost of insurance shall be higher already because of the age increase, so say at RM 33 for the same sum assured. THis means Allianz will deduct 33 units from 100, so the remaining is 67 units in your investment account.

Every investment linked products works this way only the allocation rates and cost of insurance differs from companies.

Hope this will help you.

rgds
chew_ronnie
post May 15 2009, 09:13 AM

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QUOTE(cheapmacchiato @ May 14 2009, 01:58 PM)
Thanks for the reply guys....

Any advice for current ILP holders?

Should  I surrender my ILP, since I am afraid the premiums will be too much for me too bear in the future, and start looking for buy Term or  whole insurance etc..
*
What is ur age at the moment? N how long is the duration of ur ILP? If you are young say less than 35, ILP is still the cheapest insurance policy you can go, even a term life policy cant match the premium. Also another issue is the cost of insurance meaning to say that if your insurance coverage is very high (cost of insurance is very high) then you may have to have a look in it.

rgds,

chew_ronnie
post May 16 2009, 11:33 AM

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QUOTE(b00n @ May 16 2009, 01:18 AM)
Read my comments and would appreciate if you could address my concern on the last paragraph in regards to losing out which I mentioned.
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Yes I know your concern that investments shud not be mixed up together with insurance. I strongly agree with that because as an insurance agent, i also do not use ILP as an investment vehicle because of the BS return at the end of the day. What I want to address out is the for younger age, get an ILP because the ratio of premium to sum assured is very very low even if you compare directly with a term assurance. This is in point with your saying that we shud pay the least for insurance premium for a said sum assured, then the extra cash we have, we pump it into other investment vehicles.

Just a simple illustration here (based on Allianz illustration) based on a Male of age 30 Non-smoker:

Term Life with riders:-
Term Life : 200K
Critical Illness: 200K
P.Accident: 200K
Medical Card: R&B 400, Lifetime Limit RM1.5M
Waiver benefit
Cost: 5,175.23/annum

ILP with the same benefits:
Cost: RM 3,900

So the difference is roughly RM 1,200/annum and you can use this money to invest anywhere you like. This is the point I wanna point out.

rgds,

This post has been edited by chew_ronnie: May 16 2009, 11:34 AM
chew_ronnie
post May 16 2009, 10:28 PM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ May 16 2009, 10:12 PM)
chew_ronnie,

There is a CATCH here which you need to bring up.  All those number are ASSUMING that the I (investment ) portion of the ILP return X % per year.  So, what is that X%?? The last 3 years, KLSE went up 30%.  If you assume that X is 30%, it will DEFINITELY not happen.  And, if the actual return is much much lower than X, I would bet that ILP will cost a lot more than term insurance.

So, what is X assumed in your ILP quotation??

Mark my words.  We will see a lot of screaming and crying from people buying ILP in one or two years.  They THINK that they got a bargain.

Dreamer
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Dreamer,

Good for you to point this out as what you say is true to the fact that if someone pays yearly for ILP, then the phenomenon you say will happen if the X value is low. It is advisable to pay premium on a mthly basis as dollar cost averaging will work by buying more units at lower price.

Yes, 30% will not happen thru out, but I've seen some of the funds has achieved 20 odd% in the bull run. But this is still not the point here, just that paying premium in monthly basis shall get thru this issue.

X is assumed at 3% yearly. Which may may be higher or lower in real case scenario. So there may be some time that policy holders need to top up if the funds performs too low.

I believe, the whole insurance industry is moving towards ILP, and traditional plans shall be phased out very soon. So does this means that ppl SHUD NOT buy insurance when all traditional plans are removed?

Thanks for your sharing here.
chew_ronnie
post May 18 2009, 03:09 PM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ May 16 2009, 10:48 PM)
chew_ronnie,

<<X is assumed at 3% yearly. >>

1) That number does not seem to be correct. It is correct as that's the worst case scenario in my quotation system, but again this may not be the worst case in the real world.

2) What happen when the return went negative for 2 years?? It doesn't matter if the market is bear for 2 years as long as the Cost of Insurance is not higher than the premium paid. So it comes back to the most important point that buying ILP shall be in a monthly basis. Pls check this website: http://kclau.com/insurance/how-to-avoid-in...d-policy-lapse/<<the whole insurance industry is moving towards ILP, and traditional plans shall be phased out very soon. >>

3) That simply mean this plan is GOOD aka MORE PROFITABLE for insurance company.  Which means it is BAD for consumer. Whether its more profitable or not, I dunno. But all I know is, consumer has higher risk than the insurance company. But this is going to happen in the near future where all insurance companies will be selling ILP products. Even the very conservative ING Insurance has just launched their new ILP, so we see the future trend here.

4) A 2 years bear market will wake people up very quickly.

Dreamer
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Added on May 18, 2009, 3:10 pm
QUOTE(imtrobin @ May 17 2009, 11:22 PM)
Really? If that happens, yes I won't buy insurance from that company. I'm sure there will be other who will spring up to offer traditional. When there is demand, there will be supply.
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What if the market has only ILPs? Means no insurance for you. I can bet with you that this day will come.

This post has been edited by chew_ronnie: May 18 2009, 03:10 PM
chew_ronnie
post May 20 2009, 12:02 AM

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QUOTE(imtrobin @ May 18 2009, 11:50 PM)
Sorry, I'm not into gambling or betting but investing. If that days comes, I will raise funds to start a insurance company for like minded people who are investment savy and want to have insurance security. BTW, I think I will win if I bet.
*
No point to argue over this matter. Just leave it for the near future to see.

 

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