this is better than diamonds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggregated_diamond_nanorods

FYI, 80% of diamond is in fact very important in our life, most non gem grade diamond are use for cutting and polishing, only a small fraction of diamond is cut for decoration - gemstones.

Infact Diamond do have international exchange rate, they're known as rapaport.

About why a lot of diamond are worth much less when you're selling is because when you;re buying a diamond and as mention VVS1 and SI2 price factor can be double for the same 3 other Cs.

If you bought your diamond as VVS1 and after 5 years of using, wear and tear will happen, scratches or minor chip will happen and your stone is no longer a VVS1.

Another factor, a lot of ppl do not know there is a control price exchange for diamond, that is rapaport, they would have bought a diamond much more expensive than it is worth.

Or market price for diamond has drop when compared to buying, If today you buy gold 916=RM98/g and 3 months later gold price drop to RM78/g, you still lose money.

The shop u went to are not really dealing with diamond so obviously you dun expect a competitive price.

Just like gold, you think when market says 916 = RM98/gram, you think you can buy a ring which is weight 2 gram at RM196? nope you should be buying that 2 gram ring at around RM235, remember the shop needs to make money too. And when you sell you think you can sell at RM98/gram?

they're just so many factors instead of blaming, this thread is to help consumer understand more about what is going on.


I dont know why you're so against diamond, there is a dark side in everything la, you think the petrol you buying everyday no dark stories behind? people dont die for it? you know war happen because of petrol? This is the world we live in today, its complicated, thats why god made beautiful things for us to enjoy like Diamond.

The problem is that diamonds have been so romanticised that people just spend money on it. Girls expect it, so guys buy it. When in fact there are so many other gemstones and designs you do which are not limited to diamonds. Incredible marketing by De Beers really.

Ask anyone whom had kept a 0.50 cts diamond since the 1960s or earlier, ask them to evaluate the diamond and see if the value had indeed increase at a minimum 100%, normally the value should be 500 - 1000% increased.

Those who had bought a 0.50cts around 80s may sell at a minimum for the price they pay, normally the value should be 50 - 100% increased.

Another very important factor, most people buy diamond in a set jewellery, the goldsmith charge a high fee for jewellery making and design cost .

And remember this Diamonds are forever, normally when you buy a diamond ring for your wife, that ring is to be kept in your family for the next generations and all the generations that follow. Its a very sound investment and something valuable you can actually pass down.

Yes incredible marketing, infact they're very successful, and whats wrong with that may I ask? Its not like diamonds are found by debeers, Diamond history goes back thousands of years. And it is still romantic whether market by debeers or not, infact thanks to debeers made popularity of diamond we have better and better technique for cutting the stones to make it look even better.

Yes they're plenty more gemstones, I let you in a little trade secret, the best investment is Ruby and sapphire, in year 2000 sapphire of certain class was going for RM2000/cts wholesale, 7 years later the price jump to RM8000/cts, but unfortunately Ruby and sapphire are not control by any corporate, its a free flow market, only people in the industry and people with in-depth knowledge can agak agak judge the stones value and make money. Normal consumer forget it, chances are so high you would have bought a stone with nearly 1000% inflated value, a stone where you wont make a single sen for the next 100 years.

Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald are expert level stone, dun touch if you're novice or you get burn, stick to diamond. I tell you when I was trading gemstone we were not making money on diamond, it was only a service item, the price and grading are too tightly control. We made our money on other gemstone which have no control.

Consumer are not protected by any specify grading of Ruby and sapphire, what color is higher grade? what clarity is consider good? what cutting is superior? you can only send your sapphire to be issue a cert saying yes this is a genuine sapphire crystal, size so and so, this and that inclusion was present and this is just an identification of your stone...thats it you're done.

The goldsmith can charge you any price they wish to charge because there is no guideline for the consumer or trading of ruby and sapphire. So do you still think other gemstones is your better bet?

So now do you see why debeer was successful with diamond? they made a standard and give people confidence in buying diamond, they set regulation, standard and a systematic way to help consumer. Debeer is actually your fren not your enemy.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 26 2009, 10:10 AM

Erm, that can be said of any family heirloom right? It can be a watch, a normal ring, perhaps even a piece of shark tooth that got stuck in your grandfather when he escaped a shark attack. The value of something you pass on for generations is more sentimental than anything monetary.

Perhaps we're coming from 2 different perspectives. You see the gemstone as an investment, I see it as something symbolic. Sentimental value vs Monetary value. Unless you plan to trade in your diamonds/gem stones I don't believe it makes sense as an investment. Who in their right mind would trade in their wedding ring even if diamond prices suddenly shot up 10x?


Without De Beer's marketing campaign, you girls wouldn't perceive diamonds as well you do now. There's nothing wrong with a good marketing campaign, but I'm against consumer ignorance. If you always believe marketing, you are always going to be lied to, that's just the plain simple truth.

They were not successful because they created a standard, they were successful because they managed to create a demand. The standards you speak of, IMO is an illusion. Just like how we have standards/grades for pirated products, you may think its a good thing... but if someone says this is a "grade B" product, when its actually a "grade C". Would you be able to tell the difference? Most likely you won't, you would need to KNOW the difference yourself.

This is where education comes in, whether its diamonds, rubies, sapphire, or any other gemstone. One should know what constitutes a proper product and how to get it verified properly. It exists in all trades, so proper education is no excuse, with or without corporate control.

The rich becomes richer when you accumulate wealth, you pass down paintings, antique, jewelleries. A wedding ring from you grandmother is both valuable and sentimental.

If ever unfortunate event happen, you at least can sell the diamond, what are you going to do with your grandfathers shark tooth?


The standardize of grading is the first thing that sets off confidence in buyers, with the successful marketing campaign it sets off more research and standard for diamond, and what do you mean illusion?

A D color is a D color which is pure transparent with no tinge of colors how can you say this is an illusion? The majority of the people will want the most white diamond a sense of pureness and it look beautiful with good fire and lustre, where else a yellowish tinge diamond will look less lustre and less beautiful because it look dirty like, there is no illusion here.

A big inclusion will be graded as SI2 which is visible with naked eye, a VVS1 is a very very tiny inclusion which is not visible with your naked eye but only able to view with a 10X loupe, this is very straightforward standard and again where is the illusion you claim?

This is where you're so misinform, you can check with any gemologist on planet Earth, there is no standard set for all the other precious gemstones, only Diamond has an international agreeable standard which all gemologist will set.

The Carat, The cutting, The clarity and The Color and minor side standard like polishing and symmetry.

Precious stones like Sapphire and Ruby do not have all these, The highest grade color for Sapphire is corn flower blue, even this simple shade you can find different hue and tinge, The highest grade for Ruby is Pigeon Blood Red and same again this shade has so many hue.

No gemologist can say exactly what shade of blue is your sapphire.
No gemologist can say this shade of color is better than that shade of color.
No gemologist can or dare say this cut is better than that cut.

As mention if you ever wanna buy a precious stone for your wife, a Diamond is your safest bet, leave all the rest to experience gem collector. And this thread is to help as much as I can.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 26 2009, 02:02 PM

The illusion is because the standards don't really matter to most consumers. How many people do you think buy diamonds actually know about all this? Are the standards really that important for the consumer? You said it yourself, it inspires confidence in the buyers but that doesn't change the fact that you're being "conned". The standards benefit the merchants a lot more than it does the consumer, as it allows them to better control prices.


Is there a standard pricing for art? How does one value an art piece to be a certain or higher than another? There is no real standard is there? Do you see what I mean by the standard being an illusion? Remember you said it yourself earlier, the value is what people think it is, a beautiful gemstone will fetch a good price regardless, and if you are comfortable with the price you got it and sell it at, then all is well no?


A wedding ring is an investment doesn't make much sense. Your ROI is rather pathetic, the risk factors are high and in times of emergency you might not even sell it at a value close to its current market value! If you want to get a gemstone as an investment, it would make sense to get the stone and keep it somewhere safe with the proper environment, not carried around on a finger.

This is why I say we're coming from different perspectives. I believe the stones on your ring are more symbolic than an investment. If you want to invest your money, there are much better options available.

Despite the "disagreements" I have with you, I am learning quite a lot from this thread I think it would be better if you compiled all you know into the 1st post or something. Something like a proper guide of what to look for when buying/selling diamonds. Tips on how not to get conned, where to get the best deals and so-on.

LoL.. almost sound like i can make my business here liao..
haha.. anyone need designers??

You seem to be very skeptical with jewellery shop, if you go to reputable shop like Habib Jewel, Faiq or Jon Ten, they will take their time to educate you before you pick your diamond, you can ask them how to look at diamond certificate and what means what and so on. They would prefer you know what you're buying and create that interest in you.

I dun think so reputable shop will con you, but I cant say for those smaller shop, so pls refrain from having this mindset that all shop selling diamond are conman. I already told you from my pass experience, we hardly make money on diamond because most people who play diamond knows quite a lot, and the diamond that we sell comes with a certificate that scrutinize every millimeters from inside out, leaving no room to play around.

The standard not only benefit the retailer but also strengthens the confidence on the consumer so they do not get con, I think perhaps its best you experience diamond yourself instead of hearing stories from fren in coffee shop and doing armchair research in google which wont give you much actual knowledge, I'm serious about this, if you wanna know more you need to look at the actual stones instead of reading. Reading here will only give you certain guideline but it cannot supplement the sensation of looking and holding a 1 carat beautiful finished stones glittering and flaring its fire as you turn the stones.. the feeling is hypnotic.

I'm no art person so I cant answer you about art.

If you think sapphire and Ruby without the interference of Debeer and with no governing standard of quality and pricing is better than you can of coz invest in that. That was the market where we made money, we do need ppl like you


A Diamond set proposal ring is very romantic to the 1 billion girls out there, and no you do not wear your 1 cts ring on daily basis, you've a what the world call a wedding band. And yes it is also an investment, like I've mention those whom had bought a 0.50 cts diamond in 1960 for RM400 can today sell that diamond for RM4000, if this is not call investment that perhaps you can give it a better name. But it doesnt change the fact it will be worth much more in future and this has been the track record for diamond over the pass 1,000 years!

The main reason you buy that Diamond set proposal ring is symbolic, proving your love to your future wife and the bonus is that diamond would be worth much more in the future, so you get symbolic and investment at the same time. Isnt it good? or you still prefer a sharktooth?

I know how beautiful diamonds can be, I put "conned" in quotes for a reason. I don't actually mean people are intentionally cheating you, but the industry as a whole, is. Don't think of it as a monopoly, think of it as an oligopoly. They benefit from selling it high, standards will allow them to better set pricing ranges. This is common in any business where demand is sufficiently high for product ranges to be made.


Did you miss the point where I said gemstones don't make a good investment? You entirely miss the point I was trying to make on the standards being an illusion.


40 years for an increase of value of 10x? Did you take into consideration the inflation rates? RM400 40 years ago is very different to RM400 now. Did you really make money from this investment? The mathematics to calculate your investments and its returns is not such a simple formula of comparing price then and price now.


It may be worth much more, but I won't get it for investment sake. Thinking like that IMO is just fooling yourself into justifying the cost. I have my own ideas for a ring, it may or may not include diamonds, but one thing for sure, its going to be incredibly unique and meaningful.

If this is what you claim then debeer should start selling silver and the price of silver will surplus that of diamond? I dun think so, this is simply supply and demand issue. Diamond itself have to be really beautiful and plenty of people appreciate its beauty then only the demand comes in. Why do you think Cubic Zirconia never made its way to the proposal ring?

You can say diamond is not worth buying but to the 1 billion people out there infact are craving to get one. It is beautiful, nice to show-off in the sense you feel proud your husband love you so much and so romantic to buy you a diamond ring, well you can also blame this on hollywood.



I think you better re-read what I answered you on the standard issue.

I've never said Diamond is the best investment stone, I edi told you sapphire and Ruby is better, its Dickson Poon who say diamond is worthless where he had never seen anybody selling back diamond, which actually is so not true, cant blame a person who knows zero and start commenting.

But Diamond is the logical stone to buy for your proposal ring if you're a novice, dun be a smart alec and get a sapphire with no international standard of grading. And if you think 10X the value after 40 years is still bad then I cant argue with you, perhaps everyone has a different expectation. If thats the case then buying a Rolex or a patek phillip is also a stupid investment according to you

Yes you can even put a pc of glass on your wifes ring, I dun think so we'll criticize you, but then stop criticizing on diamond as if the 1 billion people out there are wrong and you;re right.

I told my hubby he is crazy to pay 5k for a CD player, but what do I know about CDP. If he appreciate the quality of the sound, he would think its justifiable and its worth every sen of the 5k which I can get a CD player at jusco for RM200

People buy Rolex at 20k, am I supose to tell them they've being con? Rolex made false advertisement so you've to pay extra for a piece of machine that keeps time?

You forgot in this world, status is also important, why do you think starbuck is so successful? RM14 for a glass of coffee?

Do you even know the feeling your wife would feel when she receive that 1 cts stone? how she would be the talk of her office and the envy of all her female relatives? nope...because you feel otherwise.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 26 2009, 05:12 PM

What were people using prior to De Beer's marketing campaign hmm? Think about it


Is your standard of romance just the purchase of a diamond or the amount of thought went into getting something for you?


And I think you should understand what I'm saying about the illusion of standards.


I'm not saying its better or worse investment stone, just that it doesn't make much sense as an investment. Boleh faham tak?


Yeap, poor ROI. As I said, your "10x return" may not really be a 10x return. You have to take inflation into account as well. People who buy rolex aren't really getting it as an "investment" per se, to afford something like that they would have proper investments elsewhere.

If you really believe diamonds to be a good investment, why aren't you stockpiling in diamonds? If you spend 40k on diamonds now, and in 40 years it becomes 10x the value, you'll get back 360k. That would be pretty useful for your children/grandchildren don't you think?


Diamonds are beautiful, I'm not criticising diamonds in themselves, but how the industry is run together with the public perception of diamonds. Its waaaaay overrated.


See what I mean by the standards being an illusion? People will spend for what they want, as long as they are happy with the price, does it matter? If you got a diamond that looks good to you, would the grade really matter to you? Would you feel bad that this great looking diamond is actually synthetic and actually only cost 300 instead of 3000 (pulling figures out of thin air).

So in the end, the standards don't matter that much to the consumers, its really just to brag/show off.


Happy, but why? Because everyone has one? Just to show off? Sorry, but I think that is incredibly shallow. This is my contention with the perception of diamonds. The chase of status and ego, completely forgetting the essence of romance.

ok shall not argue with you further, I've met plenty like you when I was in this industry, if you say its bad then its bad lo

I'm here to assist forumer when they wanna buy diamond and they would like to know more about diamond, I'm not here to convince you to buy diamond. Hence the poll.

If you think glass or silver is better then go buy them, you're like a fish lover, going into a dog forum and telling dog owner that keeping fish makes better sense

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 26 2009, 07:03 PM

Education isn't only about the good stuff eh? The information you're sharing is good, but I believe people have the right to know about the diamond industry's history as well. That's the only reason I've been arguing with you Otherwise its just like teaching people about sex but skipping the part on STDs

P.S. - Keeping a fish might make more sense than a Dog depending on what you plan to do with the pet

This post has been edited by silverhawk: Apr 26 2009, 10:46 PM

The problem is you're only giving your personal opinion, which has no educational capacity. Its like you feel its wrong to buy diamond as an engagement ring because it is over priced and will not hold its value, this is not exactly educational stuff because you do not have prove to back this up.

2nd you're not from this industry and from your argument it shows clearly you know nuts about diamond and yet you wanna pass comment.

You're just trolling here

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 26 2009, 10:51 PM

Shows that you completely missed my point right?

I feel its wrong to buy diamonds as an engagement ring SOLELY BECAUSE its a diamond. Get it? It has become an expectation, one as you would say, has no foundation in educational capacity.

After some thought, I think I'm not going to let this comment slide. You come from a sales background no doubt, so you're used to the idea of selling your product. Perhaps this bias has become sub-conscious to you even though you've left the industry. So I'm going to hit you with several questions regarding the inherent value of diamonds as well its investment value (a point you keep bringing up so it must carry some weight). Since you were in the industry, you should be able to provide me with the necessary answers and data to back up your claims.

From now on when I mention diamonds, I'm talking about diamonds as a gemstone, not the how we use diamonds as abrasives, drill bits etc.

Let start with the value of a diamond. In one of your earlier posts, you compared the value of Diamonds to Gold, somehow trying to assume that Gold and Diamonds are economically valued the same way. How wrong you are. The amount of Gold on this planet is limited, diamonds are not. Gold has utility (think semi-conductors), diamonds are a luxury item. Gold is malleable, diamond is not. Diamonds are forever yea right... take your diamond and break it, and see if you can get even a tenth of the value you paid for it. You can break Gold into a million pieces, melt it, and it would still retain its value. Hence there is an inherent quality in Gold that gives it value, what is the value of diamonds? How do you determine the value of diamonds?

Who releases the information on what diamonds should be priced at? If I recall, that company would be De Beers no? Basically the supplier sets the price for the diamonds, and the supplier has also artificially controlled the supply of the diamonds to create an artificial rarity. So please tell me, how is the price of diamonds not arbitrary? It doesn't really matter whether you have a bunch of standards and certificates to grade diamonds, if the supplier chooses to change the value of diamonds its up to them and the entire market follows. As far as I know, the mechanics on pricing for the diamonds isn't transparent either. Do you see why I said the standards are an illusion? The standards have no real bearing on the actual value of the diamond.

Now lets move on to the value of diamonds as an investment. You mentioned earlier that a diamond bought in the 1960s for $400 would cost $4000 in 2000 and if a person bought a diamond in 1980s, they can expect a 50%-100% increase in value. So lets say if its $400, that would mean between $600-$800 correct? At first glance your point may seem strong, that in 40 years you can get an ROI of 1000%. Yet you didn't take into account inflation, the value of money changes as time goes on.

Using this website: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ which allows us to calculate inflation rates, we can see how much something really costs in different years.

1960 - 2000: $400 becomes $2322
1980 - 2000: $400 becomes $833

So your $400 investment in 1960 is worth $2322 in 2000. When you sell it off at $4000, that would mean you only make a profit of roughly 72%. A FAR CRY from your claim value of 1000%. For 1980 to 2000, your ROI is actually negative, albeit by a small percentage 4%. A mere 72% profit after 40 years? Can you honestly tell me that it is a good investment? To make matters even worse, your diamond can DEGRADE so its value may drop even further since its not the same grade it was when you bought it. So much for diamonds being forever huh?

Now here is a very important question... Are these values appraised, retail or wholesale values?. Appraised values can easily be inflated, and may not reflect actual market prices. If your figure of $4000 is retail, then surely the amount you can sell it for is much lower. Why would a merchant buy from you at higher prices when he can get the stone at wholesale prices? Whatever you sell has to be below the wholesale value for the merchant to make profit right?

Since you've been in the industry, how active is the 2nd hand market? What are the trade ratios between the retail and used market for diamonds? If a seller were to sell their diamonds, where would be the best place to go to, and what kind of resale value can they expect? wholesale price? 10-20% less? 50% less? This is something I'm really interested in knowing, and I'm sure it'll help many people in Malaysia who are looking to sell their diamonds in this bad economy.

So in summary, Diamonds have no inherent value because it lacks in both utility and scarcity, nor does it make a good investment option. So people who buy into diamonds, thinking that they're good because its so expensive, are akin to audiophiles paying $485 for a wooden volume knob. An item bought at such inflated prices, only because of a skewed perception of its actual value.

i couldnt agree more to the points that hawk has brought up
if it wasnt for debeers i think man-made diamonds aka cubic zirconia or lab actual grown diamonds will make it into the market, just like how other natural occuring materials are being substituted with man-made ones

Pity your wife
As mention I'm not here to convince you to buy diamonds, if you feel its worthless, you feel you're smarter than the rest of the world than dont buy simply as that. Done.

May I ask, if you think diamond is so worthless than what stone or thing would you wanna set on the proposal ring?

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 27 2009, 08:56 AM

good debate... as for me, i agree with Hawk on the investment and the inflated/illusional value of the diamond, yes... frankly... it's really not worth the price...

but i also agree with Moorish, i seriously had a great time looking for my wife's engagement ring, going into Tiffany, Cartier, and almost all branded jewelery shops in Klang Valley... i buy it for the sake of my wife's smile and happiness, worth every single sweat and blood