See, sales person talk again. I'm not asking you to convince me to buy diamonds, this is a topic for information, and since you've been in the industry, PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION. You had the gall to accuse my points of having no educational basis, I just provided a nice lengthy explanation of how the market works and commodities are valued. Are you still going to say its my opinion? In all likelihood, the value and investment choice of the diamond is your opinion that has no foundation in education.

Why don't you answer the questions? Its not about convincing me to buy or not, that is irrelevant. Its all about information and education. You believe people should know about HOW to buy diamonds, that is not wrong. However, I also believe that people should also know the history of diamonds, how the market works and whether or not the diamond has good re-sale value.

Stop your sales talk and provide us the information that only an insider should know.


I do not know yet, I plan to design a custom ring when the time comes, but that depends a lot on my partner as the ring will be designed to fit her. What stones it includes really depends on who my partner is, diamonds may or may not be included.

So are you going to continue on the track of providing information about diamonds in this topic? Or are you just going to run away from my questions because you can't answer them?

this is the wedding band part... any proposal?
for some reason, girls really fancy proposals... maybe too much Hollywood
i've heard one too many stories of girls telling me their bf/fiance/husband didn't propose to them in a proper (i.e. romantic) way...


boss... this is just an online forum and there might be some questions that are out of the forummer's knowledge, chill lar

nice debate between moorish&silverhawk.
as for me, the sparkling of the diamond is enough

1. is it abnormal for a man to wear a diamond ring, isn't it?
i'm more into diamond than other gemstone..

2. for rm1k, what kind of diamond can i get, with silver ring as its base (malays say "ikat")?

i'm wearing a 0.18Ct Love Diamond embedded into 2mm thick, 4.5mm wide white gold ring

There are a lot of promos around, go to as many shops as you can and look at as many diamonds as you can... and most importantly... don't give in to the sales person's sweet talk... i've rejected at least 10 shops before buying that ring...

Its not running away, I just came back from RHB queeing for 2 hours to buy wawasan, and I'm not exactly in a good mood.

Ok back to your question, actually you've divert so far off I dun even know where to answer you.

This thread is about buying diamond for proposal ring, and you start saying what? diamond is no good? if its no good then can you tell me what you've in mind to replace it? but you've not made up your mind yet and may even include diamond...so its very confusing, can you make a stand and let me know so I know how to debate further?

Debeer only market how romantic it is, they've never promise you diamond as an INVESTMENT RING instead of a proposal ring. I'm the one who mention you can have both, you can buy a diamond ring for your wife and the ring can pass down to next generation, its symbolic and yet a sound investment because you wont lose money/value.

And in case emergency your son or grandson can sell off the ring.

So in which area you do not agree with me here?

Why should I share information with arrogant smartalec like you? you think you know so much then congrat, you wanna know you ask in a proper way, but since you do not believe in buying diamond then no need for me to answer you.

done..

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Added on April 27, 2009, 12:15 pmRemember there is 2 ways to look at diamond, if yu just want to buy diamond without bothering if it holds its value then any diamonds will do, even a RM200 0.05 cts stone is a diamond. Its meaningful.

If you wana buy a diamond and hope its worth something in the future than invest in a bigger stone, I would say at least a 0.50 pointer.

There is no right or wrong but only decision, everyone has their priority.

About guy wearing diamond yes a lot of guys wears diamond, be it stand alone or other precious stone like Sapphire set with smaller diamonds.

The latest trend is guy wearing a single solitaire diamond earrings on 1 ear, they're selling like mad now, infact last week I saw a guy bought a 1 cts stone for earring...cost RM43,000.00




This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 27 2009, 12:15 PM

Not the time yet la
When the time comes, then only think about it. After all, the proposal has to fit the girl, no point making general ideas right now, you'll be changing them later anyway

A post about "educating" consumers should be about education. Education should try its best to be impartial, neutral and objective. The information moorish has provided is good, its not wrong, but its only one side of the story. Why can't she talk about the other side? She keeps saying she's been in the industry, and that's good, but why only give one side of the story? She's no longer a sales person, and consumers should be educated the best they can so that they can make the best decision for themselves.

Do you agree to this?


Maam, is your mind so one-tracked and narrow? I'm arguing against the actual value of diamonds, not its perceived value. It doesn't matter to me what the actual value is, as long as I'm willing to pay the price. We're here to educate people no? There is a lot of marketing hype that diamonds are forever (false), diamonds are rare and precious (false) and that diamonds make a good investment (false).

I may not believe in the actual values of diamonds, but if they fit the purpose I need it for, then I would most likely be willing to pay its price. Can you understand the difference between education and personal choice?


Really? Won't lose money or value? You said in your earlier posts that within 5 years your diamond might lose its value because you've been using it so it might get damaged and thus becomes a lower grade stone. Are you going to back track on this? I also provided you data on how the prices go up according to inflation rates, which from the 1980-2000 data actually showed that the diamond dropped in value by 4%.

Lets make things simple. Explain to use the re-sale value and market for diamonds. Where can you go to sell your diamonds? What values can you expect for it (compared to wholesale value and the value which you bought it at)? How easy is it to sell the diamond? How likely is it that you will get a fair price for your diamond? Basically, provide us the necessary information should we choose to resell our diamonds for money in this horrid economy.


See, typical sales talk again. You only educate for people to buy, you don't educate for people to make informed decisions. All your information is biased and skewed towards a sale. Anything information that leads away from it, you deny/ignore. C`mon, you're not a sales person for them any more. Why not share the information objectively and let people decide for themselves?

as mention again and again...you dun buy bulk of diamond and hope to make money from it,this thread is about diamond for proposal ring and you buy 1 proposal diamond ring for your wife only, so the diamond can be passed down to your future generations.

From people I know in real life the oldest diamond I've known and witness a resale was a customer her mom passed her a ring which she have to sell due to financial difficulties, she even have the receipt it was bought somewhere in the early 60s for RM400, we bought the diamond for RM4000 and resold it again at RM6000.

Another customer bought a diamond in the early 60s also, for 1k, my boss kept pestering her to sell at RM11,000 but she is rich and refuse to sell, the diamond can be resell easily at 18,000 retail.

If this is consider bad return to you, then fine, I'm not here to convince you to buy diamond. You can set other thing on her ring.

One thing for sure I'm no God, I cant and I believe nobody can guarantee you anything in future, whats house value will be, what shares will be, what investment will yield what return. But from track record so far reasonable size diamond that has been kept for 40 years do not lose money.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 27 2009, 02:18 PM

I've got a question regarding the investment thing specifically appreciation of diamonds

Would this hurt diamond's resale value or appreciation since it can be cultured without any flaws?
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/SavingandDebt/P97816.asp

Actually no, because man made diamond can be detected when GIA issue the cert and they're obligated to state there it is a man made diamond. Human value natural thing, synthetic will somehow give a not genuine perception, it is like wearing fake.

Even cultured pearl and natural wild pearl price varies a lot.

But of cos for the tighter budget synthetic is always a better choice, but will synthetic hold its value in years to come will remain a question.

It is somehow unromantic to give a synthetic diamond to your wife.

thumbs up.

Even though some of us may realize how much diamonds are over-rated, thanks to De Beers, the rest of the world world has been tuned to believe that "diamonds are forever",- a symbol to i guess show undying and everlasting love. After all, how many of us would want to buy a second-hand engagement diamond for your significant other? Surely, not me.

But kudos to Moorish for helping people out on choosing stones... it's a beautiful affair, this one is.

There's really so many tips and advise on choosing a stone, but here are some tips from my personal experience to get the best out of your budget. Hope i have condensed it enough:-

a) Cut is the most important of the 4 Cs. While you can tone down on the other C's, choose only the best cut (excellent graded). Each storefront will tell you they have the best cut, the most fiery and scintillating, etc. Some will have 58 facets, some will have 108 facets and say it's better, some will have hearts and arrows symmetry, some will have 'roses' symmetry, but really let your eyes make the decision if unsure.

b) Color - I'd go for colors between G to J. Personally if the stone has a little of blue Fluorescence, i'd welcome it since it negates the yellow color. Heck, the stone is even cheaper if it has a little fluorescence.

c) Clarity - I'd go for somewhere around VS1 to VS2. If you want a bigger stone with the same budget, you can try clarity SI1 as you still may not be able to spot any inclusions with the naked eye.

d) Carat - this one... you have to see the size of her girlfriend's stones...

e) Lastly, as all this 4Cs (and thus the price) depends on the grading lab's certificate. I recommend AGS or GIA labs so that you ensure what you pay is what you get.

e) Last tip, if you have time to do your homework, then buy online. Retail shops prices are highly inflated. Buying online saves you money (maybe 20% cheaper). Not only is it cheaper, the variety of stones are better, and the amount of information given is much better too. If you look at my avatar, that's the ideal-scope image of a diamond which is used to measure light return. Available in retail shops? unlikely... all they provide is probably only the diamond cut proportions found on the cert. Yeah, just good enough to run through a HCA calculator assuming a round tolkowsky cut

Lastly, the hardest part should be the proposal, and not choosing the stone, so you need not go down the geeky part like i did! Remember that! (Although my wifey appreciates the amount of effort i put into my search for the stone).

Hope this helps!

Your arguement is a little skewed. You talk about diamonds as a gemstone and yet you talk about gold as an industrial product(note semi conductors). Like you said "diamonds are used as abrasives, drill bits etc." So they do have some form of utility. As your statement in the scarcity of diamond that it is not limited as compared to gold, i assure you that you are quite wrong. Natural diamonds are very scarce. If they werent then they would not have much value. There are techonology on making lab diamonds but then it is like comparing natural pearls to cultured pearls.

How do you determine the value of diamonds? Well if you have bought any that have real value, you will know that good diamond come with a Cert and Serial no on the quality of the diamonds. Certs are issued by GIA or some other certified institution. Then you compare it to the current market rate. Who detemines these rates? The simple idea of Supply and Demand. Just like everything else in this world. Think of crude oil. The prices were more than US150 per barrel and then dropped to less than US40 per barrel in less than 6 months. Have we suddenly stopped using oil? NO. Just some bunch of rich ppl playing the markets. So it is a very moot discussion of you talk of the price. Value is a different matter all together.

As both of your arguements on value. Value is a perception. Not something tangible. Something valueble to you might not be for me. Like the example of CD players and Rolex watches. Expensive watches are not valued so much by the material it is made but the technology and level of craftsmenship(most expensive watches are hand made ie. Patek, Panerai, Franck Muller, etc.) This is of value to somone who collects watches but not to the average Joe.

The purchase of diamonds are not value by the object in itself, but the idea or perception of its value. Its value could be in the happiness it brings to your loved one, or the sense of achievement in purchasing one, or just to show off that you have a bigger rock than the other person. The arguement on its monetary value and investment value is moot. Very rarely ppl invest in diamonds. If you want to invest in jewellery then watches would be your best bet(higher demand in the collectors circle)

I think this thread has taken a very personal turn and has stopped being a discussion.

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Added on April 27, 2009, 4:30 pmI have to disagree on this. The most important 'C' is Carat. If your stone is too small, then the other Cs wont matter . Any thing less than 0.5 Carat would be too small to see the difference in the other Cs. You cant tell - the colour, cut only if it is very bad, defenitely cant see the clarity cause nothing/too small to make any significant difference.

Got a nice solitaire of 0.5 Carat, Brilliant cut, Colour E, VVS2, GIA from Carat Club. Cheaper and better quality then the other shops.




This post has been edited by Bishop: Apr 27 2009, 04:30 PM

Are you sure someone won't be able to tell the difference of the other 4C's if it was smaller than 0.5ct, a 0.4ct perhaps? Less likely maybe, but is possible even without a loupe.

I agree that when too small, the other C's won't matter as much. But still, i prefer a small sparkling stone than a bigger lifeless stone. The beauty with an excellent cut stone is how it stands out in low-light situations. All stones badly cut or not will still stand out under a jewellery store's dazzling lights. Also, I've seen how an excellent cut stone looks bigger visually compared to badly cut stones even though carat size is of the same. (badly cut stones suffer light leakage)

okok, technicalities aside, must be a lovely stone you got anyway!

You're still so stuck on it. You mention it as an investment, and as I've proven to you the increase in price more or less follows the cost of inflation. Something you still have yet to acknowledge up till now . Makes me wonder if you're actually reading anything I say or just glancing over. Basically saying that diamonds are a good investment is just a sales pitch, if you actually study it, it doesn't make sense at all as an investment. If you're being really truthful about things, why even mention this?

Why haven't you provided any information on the re-sale market for diamonds? I've asked you 3 times I think, still no information?


When cultured pearls came about, it crashed the pearl market


If you had a choice to buy a synthetic diamond with a better grade than a natural diamond with the same cost, which would you go for?

This comes to mind...


Seriously, not everything "natural" is good.


Its not skewed, its perfectly legitimate. Diamonds as a gemstones are not the same as diamonds used for other purposes. Gold is gold in ANY FORM. You can take your gold necklace or something, melt it down and that gold will still retain its value. Can you take your diamond ring, attack it to a drill and use it as a drill bit and allow your gemstone to retain its value? No you can't. That's why its different, and its dishonest for anyone to compare the two, since their markets are way different.

You mentioned that diamonds are scarce, they're not. Your line of logic is that its expensive, so IT MUST BE scarce. Unfortunately, the scarcity is artificial, go read up on the history of diamonds and you'll understand that its actually an abundant resource, one which we can actually synthesize now. So really, where is this scarcity?

You also mentioned supply and demand, guess what De Beers did? They controlled both That's why diamond prices are inflated, from a business POV, they're one hell of an amazing company. From a more ethical point of view, they're pretty much b*stards Its not entirely wrong for people to perceive values in a certain way, but don't you think people should learn to better perceive value? A lot of people have a misconception of diamond's origins and history, hence their perception of it. In other words, their perception has been manipulated. If you think this sort of mentality should be encouraged, well I have nothing to say.

This post has been edited by silverhawk: Apr 27 2009, 05:12 PM

he can talk what he wants, me no more wasting my energy answering him, just a troll and I wonder why MOD allowing him to blabber with no logic.

anyway he is the first person who made it to my ignore list.

To me this are subjective la, for some people size is more important the bigger the better, some people prefer a smaller stone but save the money on the quality, so we cannot say who is right or wrong la, individual preference.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 27 2009, 05:43 PM

I dont see how is it unromantic to give your wife a man-made diamond.
they look the same, feel the same, last as long, same chemical composition etc.
can an untrained person even tell the difference?definitely not. Lab grown diamonds can even have the same kind of cut that a natural diamond would. I'm sure if your wife loves you she wouldn't mind as it still sparkles like natural ones.

I highly recommend you not to buy diamonds as a means of investment. Think her arguement was that diamonds do appreciate in value. The purpose of buying diamond is not to resell. there are a decent resale value in diamonds. Many shops have a buy back policy. All they do is reset the stone and it is like brand new. but that is not the purpose of buying the diamond.

Yes they do control the supply hence controlling the demand. Hence controlling the price, NOT the value.

val⋅ue
–noun
1. relative worth, merit, or importance

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/value


Value is a relative perception. Value is the meaning you give to it, not the price. You are getting mixed up about the two. If someone's deceased loved one left a garden rock to that someone. Then that rock would be very valueble to him. I doubt that he would change that for money or a diamond. "relative worth, merit, or importance", not the price. The value is in giving or recieving the diamond... matter of perception.

There is no misconception about it. Diamonds are pretty and nice, I think *I/my GF/mother/bf/etc* would like one, so i buy it. Those buggers at DeBeers say it is bloody expensive, but I have the money to get one so I buy it. There is no misconception about it. Demand and Supply.

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Added on April 27, 2009, 6:13 pmYes it was . Set on a 3 clawed ring, it opens up the diamond to be viewed from all sides. Make it look bigger than other settings. A little high though...




This post has been edited by Bishop: Apr 27 2009, 06:13 PM

it is not romantic if you wife is expecting a real diamond! haha! Good luck if she finds out.

man-made diamonds are not of the same composition meaning light refraction that apply to diamonds do not apply to synthetic diamonds meaning the same cut for a natural diamond will not apply for a synthetic diamond.

Again value is perception. Not the price. DO NOT buy something that you CANNOT afford.

Yes it is the same to the untrained eye. Just like cultured pearls. In fact cultured pearls usually look better. Again that is not the point of giving something. Why dont you give her a ring in rodium plating instead of white gold or platinium? To the untrained eye it is just white shiny metal.

Just a matter of where you put your values...

then have to be careful... hope the head is made of platinum also.. wouldn't want one of the claws to break off!

Lol Moorish and the other pro-diamond ppl here. Why are you avoiding the issue and silverhawk's questions?

Do you think that if you accuse him of being a troll and vigorously re-affirm your DeBeers sales points people will fall in line to listen to you like sheeple?

Maybe that will work... on people with no brains.


My dear, it is YOU who is unacquianted with logic and the process of informed, educational debate.

It is of course easier to ignore Silverhawk than to answer the questions he posed to you. The only thing you know about diamonds is what you have been spoonfed to believe. That, and the fact that by selling diamonds you can get rich.

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Added on April 27, 2009, 6:51 pmDiamonds, unlike gold and oil, have no real economic usage, and its price is kept afloat by perceived value alone.

It is this over-inflated perceived value, and it's association with perceived prestige, along with the monopoly on the supply and demand exacted by DeBeers, which has financed dictators and human rights violators such as Mobutu Sese Seko, Charles Taylor and Foday Sankoh. The artificially high prices of diamonds has financed civil wars in Angola and the Congo for decades and armed militias who practise the recruitment of child soldiers and drug them up with hard narcotics to serve as cannon fodder.

The next time you buy a diamond, think very, VERY carefully where your money goes. Who does it ultimately profit?

Just like I encourage you to do so when you buy furniture made from rare hardwood timbers.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Apr 27 2009, 07:00 PM