i am trying hard to understand how a 0+5 'twinning' programme done wholly outside the country can be considered a 'local' med school.........

if i am not mistaken, the 'offshore' campus is an existing medical school affiliated to the uni of bangalore.....they just make an arrangement to 'buy' the med student places to sell to unsuspecting msian parents hell bent on making their children into doctors, the dream they could not realise in their time......

that is smu.......different lah.......

this is a relatively unknown upstart uni.....with obvious strong political connections

if i am not mistaken, they attempted a tie up with harvard earlier for postgraduate studies, but of course once harvard gets wind of the reality on the ground, they lost no time in getting out........

it's amazing how the most difficult course to run for any university, medicine/dentistry, sprouts out from very unknown, new, and unbenchmarked universities........can only happen in msia......

i stand corrected on the actual arrangements between msu and the obvious technical partner MS Ramaiah Medical College.......

india like most 3rd world countries (msian included) have a problem with keeping consistent standards for everything, including the training, and selection of future doctors......hence there is wide spread of standards of medical education in india, from the very excellent to the appalling......

questions remains why msu needs to resort to, and the india partner wants to allow, the use of indian expertise and hospitals and patients in the training of msians.....

also, if both facility shares the same teachers and clinical material, questions arise on how that impacts on the teacher:student and patient:student ratios.......

the indian gov has also set restrictions on the number/percentages of foreigners in their medical programmes, so how is this programme affected?.......i suspected the qualification is/will not be recognised by the imc and india moh.........

bottom line is, isn't there a better way of managing the selection and training of future doctors for msia........??

politics should stay firmly out of education......but that is of course wishful thinking in the msian context........every political party wants to control/set up a university........

which also explains the dismal state of education in msian, particularly medical education........

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Added on December 29, 2008, 10:57 pmi see variable reports of msia reaching the un target of 1:600 ratio by 2013 or 2015......

there will of course be considerable maldistribution.......but even as we type now, it is reaching saturation point in the klang valley, especially for gp clinics.....

you can't turn off the production of doctors like a tap, thus yes there is likely to be a surplus of doctors in parts of msia by 2015, and a likelyhood of absolute surplus by 2020, at current production levels......

the other problem msia will face, is the broad spectrum of quality of these new doctors from such disparate sources.......

there is just NO centralised, coordinated, standardised, and future-need-based planning in the production of our future doctors.......disparate political vested interests decides the day......

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Added on December 29, 2008, 11:04 pmthe reputation of an academic institution comes not from whether it is ipts, the advertisements and publicity, or worse, being bumiputra owned (as if that should have any bearing at all), but from the strength of the programmes, the breath of the academic staffs, and the quality of the products, ie the graduates........so yes it is relatively unknown.......

This post has been edited by limeuu: Dec 29 2008, 11:07 PM

what has mara to do with the accreditation process? it should not.......

this exemplify the messed up way medical education is 'planned' and implemented in msia......

the 'planning' is not based on the needs of the citizens, and the needs of the nation.........it is done with vested interests overriding the principles of standards, quality, equity, accessibility, and safety.........

every political party wants one.........

every ethnic community wants one........

every state wants one.........

every connected businessman wants one........

and this resulted in the very strange phenomena of med schools in search of a teaching hospital!!!!

normally, in the natural scheme of things, as a community grows, the health services and hospitals also grow with it.......on reaching a critical point, the local university, usually the most established one, will be asked to set up a medical school......a well established system of healthcare is already in place, with all the local expertises already available in the local hospitals......and the university easily taps into this existing medical expertise, to set up the local med school.......

it is the opposite in msia.........novice universities with no track record are on political/racial/monetary grounds given the right to set a medical school........and they go about looking for somewhere where medical expertise is available to do that........and in extreme cases, end up in other countries' hospitals!!!!

malaysia boleh.........sigh......

there has NEVER been a situation where any msian med school, public or private, no matter how teruk the conditions are, is refused full recognition of the degree.......they have actually changed their own criteria, so one particular med school can be accredited........

ie, like many things msian, it is a political decision rather than a professional decision........

however the process takes place towards the end of the 1st cohort, ie around the time the 1st batch is graduating.....

if you intend to work only in msia, and have no intention of going overseas to work or train, then it matters not where you graduate from........

any of the upstart med schools locally will do, even though most of them will not be recognised anywhere else other than msia.......even unrecognised russian, indonesian, samoan (i kid you not, see today's the star ad) degrees will do, whatever.....just pass the qualifying exam.....that is how lax we are on recognition and standards.....

once you are fully registered by mmc, you are on par with any other graduates from oxbridge, melbourne etc........

except for bragging rights.......

if you however do intend to consider work/train in other countries, particularly 1st world countries, then your primary qualification is very important........

so what's your ter?

This post has been edited by limeuu: Jan 4 2009, 08:53 PM

so any offers for direct entry in oz?

while in the principle of individual endeavour, that would sound like the correct thing to say, in real life, the degree you hold determines recognition and license to work........whether you like it or not.....

there are of course back doors, where one can sit for qualifying exams set by regulatory authorities of various countries, but that is inviting unnecessary trouble and hardship......

let's face it, those msians who have unrecognised degrees have them purely because they had been unable (did not qualify) to get into recognisable medical programmes......i don't know of anyone who will choose to go to an unrecognised med school over a recognised one........and they face a big hurdle, many cannot pass the qualifying exams in spite of repeated attempts.....

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Added on January 7, 2009, 5:24 pmmany fail because they are poorly trained in the first place........and because they were weak students (go look at some of the spm/stpm/pre-u results), who would not have been able to get into a reputable med school........and probably should not have gone to med school in the first place.......

This post has been edited by limeuu: Jan 7 2009, 05:25 PM

there is NO uncertainty.........the list is there for all to see.........those going overseas to unrecognised med schools know exactly what they are getting into.......or should......there is no excuse for pleading ignorance.......

like i said elsewhere, ALL local med schools, ipta or ipts, will be recognised.......that is a political decision...........

everybody loves a conspiracy story, and this would make interesting reading, and certainly sounds logical......

but the issue of jpa/mara scholars not wanting to return to serve their bond is NOT because they have recognised qualifications.......but because the govenrment ALLOWS them to do so with impunity......

just sue the guarantors/parents for the full amount of money spent on these scholars, plus interests, plus penalty, make it public, widely covered in the media.........and see if these scholars don't come scrambling back.......otherwise, recover the money, and there is no loss to the gov/country........

it would also make those who intend to break their bonds from the word go think twice about accepting the scholarships......

so why is that NOT happening??............

the powers that control all this is not interested in the quality or safety of healthcare in the country........it becomes a game of numbers........how many malay, chinese and indian doctors there are......what is the ratio (1:1000?, 1:600)......

the people who actually have to deal with this on the ground, ie the moh, are stuck with many poorly trained and often incompetent fresh graduates entering the hospitals.......some of these doctors become a liability rather than an asset.....instead of an extra pair of hands in helping to cope with the non-ending stream of patients in gov hospitals, someone has to keep an eye on these doctors to make sure their mistakes do not do too much harm.....

mistakes happen? you bet........all the time.......you will be surprised how frequent......the case i mentioned here: http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/942204/+40 .....that contract doctor (actually from pakistan, not india[p/s in response to below, the doctor stated on the phone she is from india, but as determined by the name chop in the referral letter, she is from pakistan]) made a wrong diagnosis of the bleeding, being only able to think of piles and unable to think of any alternative possible diagnosis, did a rectal examination and completely MISSED a rectal tumour......... if not for the fact that the patient has insurance and insisted on referral to a private hospital, that pakistani doctor will continue to treat that patient as piles.........!

This post has been edited by limeuu: Feb 23 2009, 09:02 AM

there is no generalisation, there IS a problem with india trained doctors as a group......one cannot tell superficially if they are good or bad.......

i stand by my opinion that because of inconsistency in standards, all doctors from russia, india, indonesia will be viewed with suspicion, and they will need to prove themselves competent individually.........this view acknowledges there are many good competent doctors from these mentioned places.....just as there are many bad ones.........and this distinction needs to be made on an individual basis.......

these are the facts of this issue.........if one feels upset because one belongs to one of these groups, tough.......just go prove yourself.....

This post has been edited by limeuu: Feb 23 2009, 09:12 AM

like said, it has become a numbers game.......

no, if you graduate from a scheduled (ie recognised under section 13/2 of the medical act), you are registrable.......and that list contains a lot of doggy unis........

to make matters worse, a backdoor exist.....if you graduate from unscheduled uni ie not recognised (section 13/3), you can sit for an exam, pitched at 4th year level, and if you pass, get registered......many cannot pass after multiple attempts (allowed 3), and the gov has now 'absorbed' them into ipta medical schools, for 'retraining'.......

This post has been edited by limeuu: Feb 23 2009, 09:27 AM

obviously ignorant about the difference between adhoc and sequential PTI..........

why don't you do some more research as to the difference, and why this case happens this way......

This post has been edited by limeuu: Feb 23 2009, 09:30 AM

typo........

from the facts of the case, it appears then a problem with the hospital, and the managers of the cath lab, rather than the doctor......

also this sometimes happens when specific catheters are required due to the configuration of the anatomy, which may not be stocked by especially small medical centers........

i think you will need to get more information about this particular before pointing fingers.......and the fingers will mostly point at the medical centre, not the doctor.......charging is done by the hospital.......and that is another big issue.......the ballooning of private healthcare costs, and the increasing charges in private hospitals.......(and i might add, shrinking doctors income in some cases)....doctors are as much victims as patients.....

this has nothing to do with the issue at hand......ie quality and competency of young doctors in msia.......

yes, i am ignorant and lack knowledge about the specifics of the case, since details are not forthcoming therefore it is not possible to make more than general comments....but i can see the glee in the eyes.....

some people however are very quick to pass judgement....

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Added on February 23, 2009, 5:05 pmpolitics.....many have strong connections with the politicians....

This post has been edited by limeuu: Feb 23 2009, 05:07 PM

are you sure it is a guide wire and not something else? you saw it? info from the doctor or a lay person patient/relative?.....sure it is femoral?.....i suggest you get your facts right first.......

i think i know what happened, but that would be speculating....

there is NOT enough hard facts about the case, but if you insist on making unwarranted conclusions on the case as a means to insult me, it's okay.......just shows you belligerent personality........that's all.....

like said i foresee problems with relationships with peers and superiors in future.......

This post has been edited by limeuu: Feb 23 2009, 05:22 PM