This thread is for all of us forumers to debate on existing misunderstandings on how the iPhone forum is being utilised. I feel that there is a big gap between the regulars/old timers here (the ones who log in nearly everyday/the ones who have been around for a long time) and those who come by once in a blue moon when there is a need. Both parties are unable to relate with each other's frustrations given the different experiences that we have in the iPhone forum.

Apart from settling our differences, it would very nice if you could also contribute constructive ideas on how to improve the usability of the forum. For example, I am in the process of revamping the old iPhone for Dummies pinned thread so maybe you could share with me on how the old guide worked or didn't work for you.

Please keep the discussion clean and please do not resort to personal attacks with references to what one forumer posted last week in a different sub forum or how a forumer is a MOD wannabe, how he did this before and etc. Thank you guys.

To start off the discussion, I am sure some of you have popped over to read the discussions at ( http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/868017 ) which started the trouble brewing again just yesterday. If you haven't read all the posts in there yet, you would not know the source of the rebutts I am going to make now.

In response to V3000's post #15 in that thread, I PMed him privately. In light of fx2800's post #24, I will republish my PM as I feel it explains the bigger picture somewhat:

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Hi V3000,

How are you doing?

I agree with you, the forum is for open discussions. I am also able to see what you mean by when some people simply come in and replies "Do you really need to open a new thread for this?" Sometimes I agree with the comment and sometimes I will not agree with that comment depending on the situation.

If you noticed in the particular thread, davidgary73 did tiao the TS for not having the intiative to Google the question beforehand but he also gave him a lot of information in regards to his question and even pointed him in the right direction. In this case, I don't think your response of "How come soo many Mod wannabe here?" was warranted at all. Someone like davidgary73 has put in a lot of effort and time into helping others in the iPhone forum. He really does not deserve to have a comment like that thrown to him in such a manner.

Do you really think that the "Moderator" status is so important to davidgary73? It isn't. The sifus in here share their knowledge for the love of helping others not to gain recognition. There is no fame or money in doing this. At the same time, the sifus don't want forumers to be overly dependent on the forum for answers hence pinned threads such as the Dummies Guide and READ ME Before Posting exist. And who pins these threads up? The Moderators do. And why? Because the Moderators realises that all this helps improve the user experience in the forums.

I'm not sure if you realise what happens behind the scenes at all. Which is why I expressed my disappointment in your choice to say what you said without looking at the big picture first. If you really do respect people, you would at least try to figure out all points of views first before passing judgement.

I have no reason to report you to the mods nor to ignore you as I have said before I do not think you have done anything wrong. I just think you made a poor choice of judgement.



Maverick Wil


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The reason we try to get forumers to adhere to certain guidelines when using the iPhone forums is simple. It is not to be authoritarians or to restrict conversation/banter/discussion. Being very active and long time participants, the old timer forumers know that discussion is unavoidable in a forum. It is what the forum exists for. HOWEVER, repeated questions over and over again in new threads cannot be considered constructive discussion. Instead, it becomes a waste of resources. This week alone, I am pretty sure there were 4 new threads opened up by new forumers asking "What are the features of the iPhone". It varies slightly of course with questions like "Is it worth it to get an iPhone?", "Difference btwn iPhone 2G/3G?", etc etc.

These are standard questions that have been answered in the best detail possible on the pinned threads. For problems that require updated solution (aka not so standard), the pinned threads itself points you to relevant threads where you can discuss the problem in a centralised environmenrather than having to refer to ten different half arsed threads. If you find your problem is not so standard, by all means go ahead and create a new thread if after using the search function, you don't seem to find a solution. No one will flame you for it. However, this is not what we are seeing. What we are seeing is people coming in and ignoring all previous existing efforts already put forth in existing threads (pinned or not pinned) and goes to open a brand new thread just for themselves. They don't do their research, they don't care to search first, no! they just expect to be spoonfed the answer.

This is number one very frustrating for the forumers who are here all the time to help. If you are here everyday and in one week you have to type out the same answer to the same questions 3, 4, 5 or 6 times over and over again, you would know how it would feel. It is an abuse of the helpful forumer's good will. Number two is these new threads mess up the forum. When discussions on the same topic occur all over the place, poor quality threads are created and this ruins the forumer's user experience. This is opposed to creating high quality threads by centralising discussions. Take for example if you were to come in one day trying to look for a discussion on iPhone casings. Ok, it's not on the pinned thread. Fine. You do a search. F*ck! 20 threads on iPhone casings? Some are 20 pages long, some are 2 pages long etc etc. Where are you supposed to discuss about the case?! You end having to go through 20 different case threads to find out the highest quality discussion before even getting to talk about cases.

Now imagine if most of us had some discipline to keep discussions on casings in one thread. Ok maybe some new extremely ignorant or extremely newbie forumers may make the mistake of opening a new thread once in a blue moon. That can still be controlled by experienced forumers directing them to the relevant post and getting them to close the thread. And take note old timers, all you have to do is prepare a standard reply like "You can find the information bla bla at this existing discussion link. Thank you, please do read the pinned threads on how to best use the iPhone forums. Voila. Simple. We educate the new ones.

That would be ideal of course but nooo some of them argue back with you. Worst thing is when these folks are experienced forumers with senior titles or those who have seen enough foruming days (not in the iPhone section but some other sections). They don't take the time to appreciate all the existing work that has been done before b*tching about how discussions are restricted etc. By doing so, it is a huge disrespect to all those who have contributed so much of their time and effort before you came along. It's like spitting in their face for telling you that they already have put the answers in the pinned threads or wherever and then you still need them to answer you damn question. It's ridiculous. It's a spoiled brat behaviour.

Anyways, to rebutt one more point by fx2800 and all those who keep bringing up the MOD wannabe issue. fx2800, you seem to imply that no one but the MODs should be regulating what is being done in the forum. Yes, that is true. They are MODs for a reason because they are the one enforced to guide the forumers. Yet on the other hand, you say that I quote "i dun expect myself to be looking in the PINNED thread or something..". This is where you are wrong. The well meaning forumers like davidgary73 may take the time and effort to compile something like the iPhone for Dummies guide but if a MOD does not agree that it will be helpful to the forum, those threads will not be pinned. The MODs are the ones who pins the damn threads because he/she expects you to read them before anything else. So you should read them!

Ok. That is my two cents for now. Note that I'm not trying flame anyone like fx2800. I am using his posts to be rebutted as to drive the point home. I respect that we all have different opinions and those opinions are to be shared.

errm i have a small suggestion... hope it helps

currently in iPhone section well we do have enough thread like iPhone for Dummies and Pwnage thread to help the users...

the problem is that every new user will sure have their question, and most of those new user with question are those who doesnt do the homework before getting hands on, whats more they dont know where is the proper place to post the question since they did not do their homework

rather than keep redirecting them to the proper thread... can we make it a proper Q&A places? for example like a place for Ultra Noob Q&A Section like the 1 in LYN Hardware Question and Answer section?? iPhone for Dummies thread is a good Q&A places, but does not seem much of the new user will go there 1st...

or maybe give a proper name for iPhone for Dummies thread? coz the name does not "attract" much of the "dummies" to come and read...

hope it helps... and peace

hmm maybe can ask mods to delete those irrelevant threads/ questions by n00b that never do homeworks?

it can prevent from innocent user being flamed..

i for once thinks that the threads that got pinned are of no use.
people just don't utilise them.

i think dummies and iphone club thread should be unpinned..dummies for the relevant questions and iphone club for all-the-other relevant spams.

@elico

The problem with having a free for all Q&A section is that the answers and questions will once again be all over the place instead of in the relevant threads. I agree with the fact that no matter how small a problem is, there will still be ppl who will want to discuss the problem. It is natural and in fact more easier to talk about the problem.

I was actually talking with davidgary about this yesterday and suggested for the new Dummies Guide, we create new threads for each commonly asked problem. The existing Dummies Guide pointed to solutions all over the forum making it hard for discussion. Some solutions didn't even have their own threads so there was no specific place for discussion as well. Discussing it in the Dummies thread is also not very practical because as a few forumers have pointed out before, who actually goes through all the hundreds of posts to find a solution? It is a cumbersome task because there is no organised manner of the posts in the Dummies thread itself. Even I don't usually do that if the search function fails me.

Furthermore if users don't do their homework in the first place, why would they would actually go to the Q&A section? They probably wouldn't even notice it.

On names, I am open to suggestions for renaming the upcoming Dummies guide to something easier to comprehend like "iPhone Beginner's Guide" or what not. I think you are right on that matter. In fact, the current proper Q&A avenue is actually the "iPhone Club" pinned thread but the name doesn't explicitly explain that it is a Q&A thread.

This post has been edited by Maverick Wil: Dec 8 2008, 01:46 AM

Perhaps, all junk/spam threads can be merged into one so called "Junk/Spam Threads"... so that the forum will look more organized. Yet, this can only be done by MOD.

And, these "categories" should be useful if forumers give full co-operation.
** Frequently Asked Question (FAQ) -> can compile from Q&A thread
** Question & Answer (General)
** Guide & Self-Learning
** Tips & Tricks
** Apps & Games

Cheers.

actually... wonder the developer of this forum (wkkay i think?) put out an extra feature on the topic
which is blinking!!!
mean make the iphone for dummies or QnA topic blinking and sharp enuff?
most of them come in and they just read throught 1st page n din read the pinned 1

and you wanna know y some of them din read the pinned thread?

coz for some other section like kopitiam, real world issue
the pinned thread is "rules and regualtion" or "warning for unrelated issue" or such, mostly is rules or guide on forum direction instead of the useful topics

so in order to prevent those nonsense or bull crap, we have to find a way for those helpful topic to stand out or sharp enuff for those N*** to notice =/

@friends & CooLeRthings

- We've got Apps & Games quite nicely set up now by baronic. One for reviews and one for discussion.

- We have Tips & Tricks pretty well set up as well.

- Question and Answer is provided under iPhone Club at the moment but for me personally, we like to talk cock (everyday chit chat and updates on the iPhone/Apple scene) in there as well. Maybe we could continue to talk cock in that thread since it is a "club" and set up a separate thread just for Q&A? Anyone up for the challenge?

- Guide & Self-Learning < Maybe I could rename the Dummies Guide to something along these lines? Anymore recommendations?

- IMO bro friends, your pinned thread (the ReadMe Before Posting one) could be turned into an FAQ given it's current format? Maybe a name change is also in order? Do you think you could do a revamp on that thread?

Maybe we can work something out with all the first posters of all the pinned threads to standardise the format of our titles? And maybe once we get everything revamped, as mentioned by bro CooLeRthings, we could ask for a "rules and regulation" type of box to be placed right on top to remind forumers to read the pinned threads and do the recommended steps (search, etc) before opening a new thread? Maybe give it a friendlier name than r&r?

This post has been edited by Maverick Wil: Dec 8 2008, 02:33 AM

lol
you get my idea wrong
some of the forumer they always hang out at real world issue, or other forum topic, which their pinned thread is rules and regulation
which lead them to this thinking that, those pinned thread is just rules, not helpful topics,
since they got this kinda mindset, they come in here just read those that below the pinned thread and miss out
they read the 1st page n found non of what they want, then they open a new thread
i think this is how those ppl do....

Oh yea, that is true as well I guess.

I remember seeing one sub forum with a red announcement bar kind of thing right at the top which we could prob use. Forgot which section it is...

This post has been edited by Maverick Wil: Dec 8 2008, 02:41 AM

hey guys... 2 days not on the net and the worlds going upside down...!!! hahahahaha..

just want to say something.... i've only been here for the past 3 months actively...but for the past months tht iv'e been here, i saw a really drastic change here in the forum....
before loads of ppl just came here and flood this forum opening a new thread and asking the same question all and all over again.... but i realize since dave arrange the sticky thread and such.... i find tht there's not much new thread open now....

it worked... only some ppl who didnt read or just really wanted to open new thread only open it....

what im trying to say is.... what ever did the old timers and dave, nokia2003, frozzbyte, and everyone who are otai and regulars did to the forum... works!!!

it damn works....

wow i support blinking pinned thread, which actually i think will do !! since many sifu waste alot time n effort there, no use if no one read it....as if sifu redirect it to the pinned thread, i found it very good, as new ts no need keep ask n they can come back here n read the pinned thread ^^

maybe can open a thread just for discussion for iphone like kopitiam, i saw here most flamed thread were those ts asking about "no answer" question like this or this nice, that or that good, is more subjective..

most sifu here like technical stuff more that kopi chit chat....if TS can assign the thread according to level will be great...like lvl 1 topic- for simple n not urgent answer, lvl 2 - moderate-technical-improvement and lvl 3- emergency !! so most sifu can help at lvl 3, and can redirect then at lvl 1 or 2 if they wan.....but i not sure can work or not

sometimes i feel sorry for some ts being flame , sometimes i feel is right as ts asking some funny question haha..

p/s: not pin-pointing anyone....just suggestion

Hey that's pretty cool. How are you going to go about doing it?

haven't gone through all the posts, but to make iphone forum a better place, just very simple - a hardworking moderator is needed, along with unbiased thinking and good attitude. just that simple.

A few heads are better than one.

the fact is, you can't possibly prevent old member from flaming noobs, and you can't prevent noobs from posting noob questions again and again either.

i've been to many other international forums, although newbie problems are not as frequent, but there're still many noob questions asked. all mod have to do is to lock the thread. if he still don't understand why the thread is locked, and post again multiple times, the member will restricted from posting anything for a period.

as far as i can see, iphone forum is not as active as other sections, so my opinion is 1 mod is enough for the task.

True but another fact is the mod is not as active as the forum. It would be nicer if everyone chipped in a bit of common sense and helpfulness. That way we don't have to rely too much on the mod all the time. It's not like we pay him to do his job. He can only do so much. I get what you are trying to say anyways. It is in an unfortunate way more realistic as to what I'm trying to advocate.

This post has been edited by Maverick Wil: Dec 8 2008, 05:08 PM

haha, i don't know..ask mod maybe? possible?

I have a suggestion.
If you feel like you need to ask a question and you prefer not to search or google the subject first, PM the sifus, but not evrytime, spoonfeeding is not the solution. You also need to learn to use the Net to help you out and in the process of doing that you learnt new things as well adding to your knowledge. The beauty of the iphone unlike other phones is that it gives you endless possiblilities to explore. I had many phones before especially the PDA Phones, they did not pose much challenge in terms of exploration compared to the iphone.