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 DVVT vs VVT-i vs VTEC vs i-DSI comparison

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TSNTX
post Oct 13 2008, 05:27 PM, updated 17y ago

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The main change between Perodua Viva and it's predecessors (Perodua Kelisa and Perodua Kancil) would be their engines. Then it came the term of DVVT, and Perodua claiming their 1.3l DVVT saves fuel and provide power as same as normal 1.5l engines.

Let us get back to the basics, DVVT or it's full name Daihatsu Valve Variable Timing is based (copycat) on Daihatsu mother company Toyota engine, which is VVT-i (Variable Valve Timing - intelligence). We believe that DVVT is just VVT-i's engine brand name for Daihatsu cars.

DVVT and VVT-i is based by Yamaha's YPVS (Yamaha Power Valve System). Yamaha was bought over by Toyota for it's YPVS because Toyota afraid of losing to Mitsubishi's MIVEC and Honda's Vtec. Yamaha has been provinding Toyota and Daihatsu engines since.

DVVT and VVT-i engines are always put together to be compared with V-tec (Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control System), i-DSI (intelligent Dual and Sequential Ignition) that is developed by Honda earlier.

All of the Vs (DVVT, VVT-i, i-DSI, Vtec, CVCC, MIVEC, CVVT...) was meant to increase fuel efficiency which is to use less fuel and produce more power from the engine. The objective is the same, the only difference would be their methods.


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DVVT and VVT-i

Normal engines is good in the low RPM. However, when the RPM reaches higher level, the amount of power produced per fuel is lesser. This is because the air from outside the engine couldn't get into the combustion space in a short period of time. That's what Yamaha sees, and they developed YPVS, VVT-i and DVVT.

DVVT and VVT-i valve works like a normal engine while in low RPM. However, as the RPM increases, the valve timer shifts the time of opening of the valve a little bit earlier. The higher the RPM goes, the earlier the valve opens.

By doing this, air would hav enough time to go into the ignition room, thus making the fuel burning in high RPM more efficient than conventional internal combustion engine.

Vtec

Vtec have the same idea with DVVT and VVT-i. It acts like a normal fossil combustion engine in low RPM, however when the user revs until certain limit (usuall 5000rpm). The valve timer would activate (this is what people usually calls Vtec change) and produce a noisy sound.

It sounds a little bit like a 2-stroke motorcycle engine revs high. You feel like the torque suddenly increases and you have more power to accelerate.

What actually happens is that the valve intake open longer than normal. Allowing more air to come into the combustion chamber. The more air in the chamber, the more efficient the fuel burns.

i-DSI


i-DSI is a new technology by Honda. Instead of changing the valve timing of an engine, Honda put two spark plugs on each piston. The reason is the same.. to burn the fossil more efficiently.

These spark plugs however have the main and secondary plugs. The main plugs usually sparks first, followed by the secondary plugs to burn the remaining gas in the chamber.





-------------------------------------------------------
The interval between two sparks was calculated in such a way to its most efficient fossil burning. In the highest RPM level, those two spark plugs might sparks at the same time to produce the largest power from the engine.

Conclusion

DVVT, VVT-i, Vtec and i-DSI is a good way developed by Japanese car automaker (Toyota and Honda) to improve the burning of fossil gas. All of them have the same objective (increase efficiency) and they do achieve their goals.

For the best fuel efficiency, MyPerodua would say i-DSI would be the best choice. For power, Vtec is the best.. and DVVT and VVT-i is in between those two.

MyPerodua welcomes DVVT engines in Perodua Kelisa and Perodua Kancil replacements (Perodua Viva). We are waiting that Perodua would implement a 7-gear no gap gearbox (like Honda Jazz) in their future installments. Coz that surely would increase the fuel efficiency of a car.

JrRetriever
post Oct 13 2008, 05:38 PM

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DVVT & VVT-i activated when you start the engine, and has a cut-off point when reaching 4000rpm if I am not mistaken. This technology is meant more for efficiency rather than power.
V-TEC and MIVEC in the contrary are activated only when reaching certain rpm, most V-TEC and MIVEC activation at is 5000rpm. (MIVEC got activated at 3000rpm? somebody know?) They meant for high rev to maximise power and suck petrol like no tomorrow.

This post has been edited by JrRetriever: Oct 13 2008, 05:42 PM
Willster
post Oct 13 2008, 05:42 PM

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dstl1128
post Oct 13 2008, 05:42 PM

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For the subject in hand, we have to separate phasing and lifting.



JrRetriever
post Oct 13 2008, 05:48 PM

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QUOTE(NTX @ Oct 13 2008, 05:27 PM)
Vtec

It sounds a little bit like a 2-stroke motorcycle engine revs high. You feel like the torque suddenly increases and you have more power to accelerate.
This is the best part like having orgasm!!!

This post has been edited by JrRetriever: Oct 13 2008, 05:49 PM
Lim Ling Yang
post Oct 13 2008, 06:06 PM

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Why is vtec in that list? lol
DaViDcHiN
post Oct 13 2008, 06:20 PM

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Sometimes I really wonder why peoples say VVTI has better fc than VTEC, in fact, I don't see any significant fc difference between these 2 engines by comparing Vios 1.5 and City 1.5 Vtec.

I have a lot of friends are driving Vios, while my sister is driving City Vtec. I roughly know the figure.
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post Oct 13 2008, 06:20 PM

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mivec not in the list ? i know that the vtec comes first then mivec... and later all the vvt-i, dvvt, cvvt, vanos all pop up in the automotive industry
BridgestoneRE711
post Oct 13 2008, 06:25 PM

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Variable valve lifting , variable valve timing - enough
DaViDcHiN
post Oct 13 2008, 06:35 PM

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QUOTE(BridgestoneRE711 @ Oct 13 2008, 06:25 PM)
Variable valve lifting , variable valve timing - enough
*
i-VTEC is a combination of Variable Timing Control (VTC) and Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control (VTEC).

What is VTC? Do you know?
kimurastanley
post Oct 13 2008, 06:58 PM

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nice information,bro
khoon888
post Oct 13 2008, 07:42 PM

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actually which 1 come first in the industry? nissan dun have any name on their engine rite. even suzuki also got name for its engine d. so is nissan lag behind?
SUSathlonxp
post Oct 13 2008, 07:42 PM

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hi TS, im here just to tell u VTEC and iVTEC > all

when vtec kick in yo..it will preeeeeeeennnnnggggggggggggggggggggg all the way to 8.5k rpm and vius or vvti will smell dust

kthxbai

This post has been edited by athlonxp: Oct 13 2008, 07:43 PM
awyongcarl
post Oct 13 2008, 07:46 PM

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QUOTE(athlonxp @ Oct 13 2008, 07:42 PM)
hi TS, im here just to tell u VTEC and iVTEC > all

when vtec kick in yo..it will preeeeeeeennnnnggggggggggggggggggggg all the way to 8.5k rpm and vius or vvti will smell dust

kthxbai
*
LOL

Anyway, most of the VTC technologies nowaday are pretty same, or similar.
the_catacombs
post Oct 13 2008, 07:56 PM

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i thought we already had a topic discussing about it??... unsure.gif
TSNTX
post Oct 13 2008, 07:58 PM

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QUOTE(khoon888 @ Oct 13 2008, 07:42 PM)
actually which 1 come first in the industry? nissan dun have any name on their engine rite. even suzuki also got name for its engine d. so is nissan lag behind?
*
nissan is cvt rite? or something like this,...forget liao

This post has been edited by NTX: Oct 13 2008, 08:08 PM
Gouki
post Oct 13 2008, 08:11 PM

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There we goes again. It has been discussed again and again. sweat.gif
jimmy.soo
post Oct 13 2008, 08:56 PM

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nowdays those tech all are meant to have a better FC instead of power lor i think. FC first, den power 2nd smile.gif
tongyam
post Oct 13 2008, 08:58 PM

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i ve get bored with this topic d, we have this chit chat in kopitiam since the 1st myvi released last time lol
JrRetriever
post Oct 13 2008, 09:01 PM

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Then should ask the topic starter to refer back the old thread.


Added on October 13, 2008, 9:02 pm
QUOTE(tongyam @ Oct 13 2008, 08:58 PM)
i ve get bored with this topic d, we have this chit chat in kopitiam since the 1st myvi released last time lol
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Hey, tongyam, same hometown weeee!! (OOpps! Off topic) laugh.gif

This post has been edited by JrRetriever: Oct 13 2008, 09:02 PM
crazytazz
post Oct 13 2008, 09:08 PM

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don get hondas; honda is for ah bengs laugh.gif tongue.gif
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post Oct 13 2008, 09:09 PM

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QUOTE(NTX @ Oct 13 2008, 07:58 PM)
nissan is cvt rite? or something like this,...forget liao
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over and over again~ Nissan has NeoVVL and Continuous VTC:w

JrRetriever
post Oct 13 2008, 09:10 PM

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QUOTE(crazytazz @ Oct 13 2008, 09:08 PM)
don get hondas; honda is for ah bengs laugh.gif tongue.gif
*
Toyota is for ah sow. tongue.gif
RoxyGal
post Oct 13 2008, 09:11 PM

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my vtec is this geh wor

VTEC
dohc
big v wor
ZeroSP
post Oct 13 2008, 09:17 PM

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Mine L15A VTEC... Small V only.. By the way, Vios and City VTEC almost same fuel consumption.... roughly 400-420 km. And VIOS has DOHC, yet hp is lower than CITY SOHC, and lose when City can engage 7 speed manually. Try out Moon's EK9 or all sorta VTEC in Civic club.. All monsters lolz...
tongyam
post Oct 13 2008, 09:19 PM

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QUOTE(JrRetriever @ Oct 13 2008, 09:01 PM)
Then should ask the topic starter to refer back the old thread.


Added on October 13, 2008, 9:02 pm

Hey, tongyam, same hometown weeee!! (OOpps! Off topic)  laugh.gif
*
nvm la guy, read the post not bad to give who need extra information wink.gif he did a good job also actually..

btw... r u leng nui? brows.gif brows.gif
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post Oct 13 2008, 09:21 PM

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QUOTE(crazytazz @ Oct 13 2008, 09:08 PM)
don get hondas; honda is for ah bengs laugh.gif tongue.gif
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lmao
where is moon's kam mou? hmmm????? laugh.gif
SUSathlonxp
post Oct 13 2008, 09:23 PM

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QUOTE(RoxyGal @ Oct 13 2008, 09:11 PM)
my vtec is this geh wor

VTEC
dohc
big v wor
*
h22a or k20a?

big v when go petrol station time..waller will become small wor ohmy.gif
RoxyGal
post Oct 13 2008, 09:42 PM

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QUOTE(athlonxp @ Oct 13 2008, 09:23 PM)
h22a or k20a?

big v when go petrol station time..waller will become small wor  ohmy.gif
*
H22A

rm 10 = 30 km..normal driving


u say cry or not lar

if vtec open everytime....

i think 20 km also cannot pass
SUSathlonxp
post Oct 13 2008, 09:53 PM

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QUOTE(RoxyGal @ Oct 13 2008, 09:42 PM)
H22A

rm 10 = 30 km..normal driving
u say cry or not lar

if vtec open everytime....

i think 20 km also cannot pass
*
my fren cb3 h22a auto..he say more save fuel than wira auto laugh.gif
ZeroSP
post Oct 13 2008, 09:55 PM

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How much is a B16B now anyway?
SUSathlonxp
post Oct 13 2008, 09:58 PM

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QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 13 2008, 09:55 PM)
How much is a B16B now anyway?
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sky high

how much is k20a dc5/ep3 halfcut?
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post Oct 13 2008, 10:05 PM

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also sky high.
i can buy 3 RB25DET halfcuts with one DC5 halfcut. whistling.gif
RoxyGal
post Oct 13 2008, 10:24 PM

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QUOTE(athlonxp @ Oct 13 2008, 09:53 PM)
my fren cb3 h22a auto..he say more save fuel than wira auto  laugh.gif
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i dun believe
advanced
post Oct 13 2008, 11:23 PM

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nice information
tcting
post Oct 14 2008, 12:12 AM

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So in the end which system better? Any conclusion?
SUSathlonxp
post Oct 14 2008, 12:13 AM

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QUOTE(tcting @ Oct 14 2008, 12:12 AM)
So in the end which system better? Any conclusion?
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VTEC/iVTEC > all


[/thread]
imperialrealcs
post Oct 14 2008, 01:54 AM

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QUOTE(! Love Money @ Oct 13 2008, 06:20 PM)
mivec not in the list ? i know that the vtec comes first then mivec... and later all the vvt-i, dvvt, cvvt, vanos all pop up in the automotive industry
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thats for japs.. the real vvt produced by FIAT 1st.. only honda made it better

QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 13 2008, 09:17 PM)
Mine L15A VTEC... Small V only.. By the way, Vios and City VTEC almost same fuel consumption.... roughly 400-420 km. And VIOS has DOHC, yet hp is lower than CITY SOHC, and lose when City can engage 7 speed manually. Try out Moon's EK9 or all sorta VTEC in Civic club.. All monsters lolz...
*
typical malaysian with big V small V doh.gif
do u even know that ur vtec l15a works differently than those in b16a?
RoxyGal
post Oct 14 2008, 01:56 AM

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those vtec system in normal car...where got lifting system geh...

jz normal variable timing to save fuel lar


VTEC got lar....once open.....turbo pposster
ZeroSP
post Oct 14 2008, 02:08 AM

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Oh.. Seriously I don't quite know... But I understand mine is nothing but just a little thing. That's why I also eager to listen... Sorry if I offended you with my noob statement earlier... Paiseh...

This post has been edited by ZeroSP: Oct 14 2008, 02:09 AM
Travies
post Oct 14 2008, 02:17 AM

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QUOTE(RoxyGal @ Oct 14 2008, 01:56 AM)
those vtec system in normal car...where got lifting system geh...

jz normal variable timing to save fuel lar
VTEC got lar....once open.....turbo pposster
*
vtec got so geng meh...
imperialrealcs
post Oct 14 2008, 02:47 AM

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QUOTE(RoxyGal @ Oct 14 2008, 01:56 AM)
those vtec system in normal car...where got lifting system geh...

jz normal variable timing to save fuel lar
VTEC got lar....once open.....turbo pposster
*
if u mean it works like a VVT then no, u r wrong..
read below

QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 14 2008, 02:08 AM)
Oh.. Seriously I don't quite know... But I understand mine is nothing but just a little thing. That's why I also eager to listen... Sorry if I offended you with my noob statement earlier... Paiseh...
*
get to know what u r driving 1st.. thats the most important part..
ur engine is something called SOHC VTEC-E if i remember correctly and these kind of vtec does not have high lift lobe on the camshaft.. instead, it varies the valve being used in combustion.. for instant: at low speed, only 12V was used to maximise fuel efficiency while 16V was used to maximise power nod.gif
i stand to be corrected
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post Oct 14 2008, 03:11 AM

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To Travies, about VTEC, I think I can, or most people will know it is the best N.A technology out there. Although some may argue Mivec but from much forum that I read, VTEC/i-VTEC>Mivec and all other N.A.

Yes.. the 12V on normal cruise I know, 16V only utilized when 4k rpm above, usually achieved in S mode, or 7 speed tip-tronic manually. In the city guide, it somehow says 4k is the VTEC power zone, it does have a louder sound but still ok la... It's not like the real VTEC out there, it just goes faster. In my notice, 1st gear can get to 65km/h if rev up to 5800rpm, which is the max HP level of my city. It's better than Vios and those 1.6 proton. And I heard that most people out there says that the ordinary VTEC kick in feelings is better than the i-VTEC?

Reference: http://asia.vtec.net/Reviews/VTECCityPrev/index.html
This shows some of my explanation, and much of yours correct points.

This post has been edited by ZeroSP: Oct 14 2008, 03:36 AM
imperialrealcs
post Oct 14 2008, 04:25 AM

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QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 14 2008, 03:11 AM)
To Travies, about VTEC, I think I can, or most people will know it is the best N.A technology out there. Although some may argue Mivec but from much forum that I read, VTEC/i-VTEC>Mivec and all other N.A.

Yes.. the 12V on normal cruise I know, 16V only utilized when 4k rpm above, usually achieved in S mode, or 7 speed tip-tronic manually. In the city guide, it somehow says 4k is the VTEC power zone, it does have a louder sound but still ok la... It's not like the real VTEC out there, it just goes faster. In my notice, 1st gear can get to 65km/h if rev up to 5800rpm, which is the max HP level of my city. It's better than Vios and those 1.6 proton. And I heard that most people out there says that the ordinary VTEC kick in feelings is better than the i-VTEC?

Reference: http://asia.vtec.net/Reviews/VTECCityPrev/index.html
This shows some of my explanation, and much of yours correct points.
*
so u look down on other car without vtec eh?
besides, ivtec again, works differently than the conventional vtec.. ivtec is more like cvvt, juz like newer version of mivecs.. juz pray u dont use ur vtec L15A to race satria mivec out there or u shat brix lol
sphiroth
post Oct 14 2008, 07:12 AM

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QUOTE(imperialrealcs @ Oct 14 2008, 04:25 AM)
so u look down on other car without vtec eh?
besides, ivtec again, works differently than the conventional vtec.. ivtec is more like cvvt, juz like newer version of mivecs.. juz pray u dont use ur vtec L15A to race satria mivec out there or u shat brix lol
*
AFAIK, i-Vtec can varies the lift infinitely instead of 2-stages as in Vtec by using solenoids to control the valve rather than lobes on cams. Because of this, you get better efficiency and power, but loose the 'feeling' of power surge when Vtec open. nod.gif
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post Oct 14 2008, 08:14 AM

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i-DSI is more than just 2 spark plugs per cylinder- it's made for max fuel efficiency and minimal emissions, at the expense of all-out power, and has hi compression ratio (10.8:1?), minimal ignition timing advance, offset crankshaft position (so that the con rods are at a better angle to push down the crankshaft during the power/down strokes), swirl-inducing intake valve position for best air/fuel mixing, etc.

Very interesting design actually, but not really appreciated due to the low power output... sad.gif
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post Oct 14 2008, 08:36 AM

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QUOTE(Esky @ Oct 14 2008, 08:14 AM)
i-DSI is more than just 2 spark plugs per cylinder- it's made for max fuel efficiency and minimal emissions, at the expense of all-out power, and has hi compression ratio (10.8:1?), minimal ignition timing advance, offset crankshaft position (so that the con rods are at a better angle to push down the crankshaft during the power/down strokes), swirl-inducing intake valve position for best air/fuel mixing, etc.

Very interesting design actually, but not really appreciated due to the low power output... sad.gif
*
Hi Esky.I agree with you on the low output, but it's not as bad as most people thought with just 86BHPs.

Afterall,
The IDSI is tuned for maximised torque in town driving and modest horsepower for cruising on the highway. How do I know? my household has one.

When I drive it, it does accelerate (and it can smoke a typical Proton Wira 1.5 on green light, if accelerate more aggresively) briskly yet gentle.

Oh the highway, well, it wont pin a person to the seat. It will sail smoothly (its engine powerband, not handling) on the highway, though if you are the driver ferrying 4 people+luggage ,above 3000RPM and you will feel as though you are pushing the 8-valve unit abit, but the CVT tranny+ECU mask this very well.

FC on the otherwise,it averages from a steady 15-16Km/L. Almost can match with diesels. And furthermore it has been tested to run on 92RON safely (and gives better FC), through a trip from KL to Penang on 1 tank.

Emissions? Its really ULEV. Look at the tailpipe.Use your finger and swipe it. Not even 1 soot, carbon, anything on the tailpipe.

Theoritically, Nissan's new Selphy with it's 2.0L CVVT engine and CVT gearbox should give the best of both worlds. Power and fuel economy, but how economical...anyone got the figure?

This post has been edited by SleeplessEyes: Oct 14 2008, 08:41 AM
Ultima
post Oct 14 2008, 09:36 AM

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put cps also lar tongue.gif
ZeroSP
post Oct 14 2008, 09:48 AM

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Of course I don't race Mivec, I know the L15A power level. I am not looking down on non-VTEC cars either, because my brother Satria GTI 4g93 mod-ed high cam also that powerful that took down Mivec before. And I am just telling according to most of the automobile forum, thier discussion will most likely conclude VTEC is the best N.A. No offense ya... I am not a vehicle engineer, I just read through and try to understand what I can.

About Sylphy, apparently the figure is slightly less than i-DSI, which claim to be around 430km for a tank, but with a 2.0 engine, some say its because thier really new technology, and also low HP as a 2.0 if you compare the 2.0 to Honda or Toyota 1.8 or even 1.5... But can tell you from the test drive I got before, the Nissan CVT is not really that smooth as City one.

This post has been edited by ZeroSP: Oct 14 2008, 09:55 AM
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post Oct 14 2008, 10:10 AM

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QUOTE(sphiroth @ Oct 14 2008, 07:12 AM)
AFAIK, i-Vtec can varies the lift infinitely instead of 2-stages as in Vtec by using solenoids to control the valve rather than lobes on cams. Because of this, you get better efficiency and power, but loose the 'feeling' of power surge when Vtec open.  nod.gif
*
Oh no. Varies lift infinitely, for Honda sake, is AVTEC.

VTEC is plain lifting along with fix set of phase timing setting per lift mode.

i-VTEC is lifting, with continuous phase timing - or in Toyota terms, you can say VVT-i with lifting (VVTL-i). Because of the continuous phasing, i-VTEC will be smoother (& more efficient) hence the non-existence illusion of boost.


Anyway, AFAIK (correct me pls), these are the group:
Continous lifting + continuous phasing: AVTEC (Honda) , Valvetronic (BMW), Valvematic (Toyota)
Lifting + continuous phasing: MIVEC (Mitsubishi), i-VTEC (Honda), VVTL-i (Toyota), Neo VVL (Nissan), VarioCam Plus (Porsche)
Lifting with variable lifting point: i-VTEC (L15A new Honda City)
Lifting + phasing: VTEC (Honda, on ~4krpm for example), CPS (Campro)
Lifting: CPS? (Campro) By logic, shouldn't have this since lifting already uses another cam lube, the lube itself should also have its phase differs.
Continuous phasing: (dual)VVT-i (Toyota), DVVT (Perodua), CVTC (Nissan), double-VANOS (BMW), (dual)AVCS (Subary), VarioCam (Porsche), CVVT (Hyundai)
Phasing (no idea which category of phasing): VANOS (BMW), VTC (Nissan)
Phasing with fix phasing point: (some say is) semi-VVT (Toyota, 4AGE 20v Silvertop on 4krpm)
Phasing with variable phasing point: VVT (Toyota of 4AGE 20v Blacktop)

Most the the above technology operate on intake cam only. However there are variants that functions on both intake and exhaust using the same name. And for continental lovers, you could add into the list. wink.gif
Newer engines might employ camless valve timing technology, so no more DOHC vs SOHC tongue.gif. But might be entirely be replaced by eletric engines. Nobody knows....


p/s: I put Campro CPS on both category with a '?' because I'm unsure about it whether it came with just lifting only or, together with phasor system.


Added on October 14, 2008, 10:17 amThere are also another whole load of air intake technology, eg. IAFM, VIM... tongue.gif, that will also play an important role in the engine.


Added on October 14, 2008, 10:19 amAs for iDSI, to my understanding, it doesn't come with any valve timing technology, but rather it is the air intake technology (long & short runner) built into the engine with dual spark plug plus a leaner config that make it an illusion of 'efficient'.


Added on February 20, 2009, 10:30amAs for the L15A i-VTEC in the new City it doesn't have continuous phasing, unlike the K20 series i-VTEC. It is just the* lifting point* is variable instead of fixed on 4krpm.

There is also big different of "continuous lifting" vs "fix lifting height but infinite lifting point" vs "plain vanilla lifting" and also "phasing" vs "infinite phasing point" vs "continuous phasing". rclxub.gif The more line I draw the more complicated it is.

This post has been edited by dstl1128: Nov 17 2009, 08:25 AM
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post Oct 14 2008, 10:20 AM

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L15A V-TEC system is different from those B16, where VTEC only switches between open/close one intake valve per cylinder and no exhaust valves are affected. So you can see how far it can go compared to 'big VTEC', isn't it? It just give you some added power at high RPM range for easier overtaking but definitely not a contender for their full power DOHC brothers B16s.
Honda has so many VTEC and i-VTEC variations. It is only fair to take apple-to-apple comparison. Same goes for MIVEC who also has MIVEC-MD.
Please correct if I get it wrong.
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post Oct 14 2008, 10:25 AM

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Well the old L15A is designed to have balanced FC as well as power. So it employ VTEC-E (or E-VTEC, damn I'm confuse with those name) with mixture of VTEC.

B16 uses more aggressive timing and... ... ... so both engine purpose is different. wink.gif L15A looks more similar do D series engine than B.



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post Oct 14 2008, 10:29 AM

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L15A still lose to D15B by the way, L15A 110PS D15B 130PS and B16B 175PS. Let's see what's in AVTEC in the coming 3 years.

Definitely... B16 is another story than L15... And Campro and CPS, even the Lotus Manager will tell it is 10 years back technology when my dad went for Lotus Exige S. And my brother knew the engineer of Campro and CPS, Campro is fixed cam profiling which the engineer said nothing much, while CPS it's like they modified it into 2 set of fixed valve timing to provide better low end torque, no lifting for CPS and Campro. And that engineer says, "CPS and Campro are old tech la, but still Ok if it is on Manual Transmission"

This post has been edited by ZeroSP: Oct 14 2008, 10:31 AM
dstl1128
post Oct 14 2008, 10:35 AM

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QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 14 2008, 10:29 AM)
Campro is fixed cam profiling which the engineer said nothing much, while CPS it's like they modified it into 2 set of fixed valve timing to provide better low end torque, no lifting for CPS and Campro.
*
Sure or not? That means I have to change to:

QUOTE
Anyway, AFAIK (correct me pls), these are the group:
Continous lifting + continuous phasing: AVTEC (Honda) , Valvetronic (BMW), Valvematic (Toyota)
Lifting + continuous phasing: MIVEC, i-VTEC, VVTL-i, Neo VVL (Nissan), VarioCam Plus
Lifting + phasing: VTEC, CPS?
Lifting: CPS? (Campro)
Continuous phasing: (dual)VVT-i, DVVT, CVTC (Nissan), double-VANOS (BMW), (dual)AVCS (Subary), VarioCam (Porsche), CVVT (Hyundai)
Phasing: VVT (eg. 4AGE Silver/Blacktop fame), VANOS (BMW), CPS (Campro)
This post has been edited by dstl1128: Oct 14 2008, 10:37 AM
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post Oct 14 2008, 11:44 AM

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QUOTE(Ultima @ Oct 14 2008, 09:36 AM)
put cps also lar tongue.gif
*
CPS=Cam Profile Switching

这个CPS技术是由莲花(Lotus)公司为Porsche所开发的VarioCam Plus技术所简化来的...

很多人会把不同公司的引擎可变气门(Valve)技术搞混...什么VVT-i, MIVEC, VTEC, CVVT, CPS...其实这些并不是相同的气门技术。

基本上,可变气门技术可分为两大类:
1. Variable Valve Timing 可变气门正时
2. Variable Valve Lift 可变气门扬程


我们先来说说为何要使用可变气门技术把。

引擎在高转速时,其们开启的时间越来越短,吸入汽缸内的混合气体就会越来越少,这样就大大限制了引擎高转速时的功率提升。

如果一味的加大气门扬程(Lift),或是气门的何时开启,时间长短(Timing/Duratin),虽然能够大幅增加引擎高转速时的功率,但是其中低转速时,废气就会过多的泻入进气岐管,吸气量反而会下降,气缸内气流也会紊乱,ECU也会难以对空燃比进行精确的控制,最终的效果是怠速不稳,低速扭矩偏低。

真的是两头不到岸...所以才会有可变气门技术的出现...

1. Variable Valve Timing 可变气门正时:
控制气门何时开启,在不同转速时增加/减少吸取空气的时间(开启次数,开启早晚)。
(Timing)

控制气门开启时间,在不同转速时增加/减少吸取空气的时间(增加/减少开启的时间)。 (Duration)

2. Variable Valve Lift 可变气门扬程
控制气门开启角度,在不同转速时增加/减少空气在同一个时间内的吸取量。
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post Oct 14 2008, 11:52 AM

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QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 14 2008, 10:29 AM)
L15A still lose to D15B by the way, L15A 110PS D15B 130PS and B16B 175PS. Let's see what's in AVTEC in the coming 3 years.

Definitely... B16 is another story than L15... And Campro and CPS, even the Lotus Manager will tell it is 10 years back technology when my dad went for Lotus Exige S. And my brother knew the engineer of Campro and CPS, Campro is fixed cam profiling which the engineer said nothing much, while CPS it's like they modified it into 2 set of fixed valve timing to provide better low end torque, no lifting for CPS and Campro. And that engineer says, "CPS and Campro are old tech la, but still Ok if it is on Manual Transmission"
*
Well, you cant compare that way, altho L15A has less power than D15B but the L15A is design based upon today's strict emission control especially in european countries. smile.gif


Added on October 14, 2008, 11:53 am
QUOTE(dstl1128 @ Oct 14 2008, 10:10 AM)
Oh no. Varies lift infinitely, for Honda sake, is AVTEC.

VTEC is plain lifting along with fix set of phase timing setting per lift mode.

i-VTEC is lifting, with continuous phase timing - or in Toyota terms, you can say VVT-i with lifting (VVTL-i). Because of the continuous phasing, i-VTEC will be smoother (& more efficient) hence the non-existence illusion of boost.
Anyway, AFAIK (correct me pls), these are the group:
Continous lifting + continuous phasing: AVTEC (Honda) , Valvetronic (BMW), Valvematic (Toyota)
Lifting + continuous phasing: MIVEC, i-VTEC, VVTL-i, Neo VVL (Nissan), VarioCam Plus
Lifting + phasing: VTEC, CPS?
Lifting: CPS? (Campro)
Continuous phasing: (dual)VVT-i, DVVT, CVTC (Nissan), double-VANOS (BMW), (dual)AVCS (Subary), VarioCam (Porsche), CVVT (Hyundai)
Phasing: VVT (eg. 4AGE Silver/Blacktop fame), VANOS (BMW)

Most the the above technology operate on intake cam only. However there are variants that functions on both intake and exhaust using the same name. And for continental lovers, you could add into the list. wink.gif 
Newer engines might employ camless valve timing technology, so no more DOHC vs SOHC tongue.gif. But might be entirely be replaced by eletric engines. Nobody knows....
p/s: I put Campro CPS on both category with a '?' because I'm unsure about it whether it came with just lifting only or, together with phasor system.


Added on October 14, 2008, 10:17 amThere are also another whole load of air intake technology, eg. IAFM, VIM... tongue.gif, that will also play an important role in the engine.


Added on October 14, 2008, 10:19 amAs for iDSI, to my understanding, it doesn't come with any valve timing technology, but rather it is the air intake technology (long & short runner) built into the engine with dual spark plug plus a leaner config that make it an illusion of 'efficient'.
*
Once again bro, u made it all clear generally. notworthy.gif

This post has been edited by Gouki: Oct 14 2008, 11:53 AM
ZeroSP
post Oct 14 2008, 04:24 PM

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If only I heard wrong from the engineer than I may be wrong... Lotus is an engineering company, they don't have their own engine but they have all the research and technology. Such as the Lotus Exige S, Elise... They are using Toyota 1.8 VVT-i engine for Elise, and for Exige S, they supercharge it. And the ultra light weight and super handling Lotus chassis. So that indeed Campro and CPS they say only Cam Profile Switching, no lifting. Believe it or not, Proton claims that Waja CPS 125PS, but yet on the road they still lose to 110PS L15A.
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QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 14 2008, 04:24 PM)
Believe it or not, Proton claims that Waja CPS 125PS, but yet on the road they still lose to 110PS L15A.
*
Paultan already dyno a CPS Gen.2 at got about 109whp in a hot afternoon. doh.gif

This post has been edited by sphiroth: Oct 14 2008, 05:01 PM
ZeroSP
post Oct 14 2008, 04:56 PM

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Can give the link to that dyno? Sphiroth driving CPS Waja?
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post Oct 14 2008, 04:59 PM

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QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 14 2008, 04:56 PM)
Can give the link to that dyno? Sphiroth driving CPS Waja?
*
http://paultan.org/archives/2008/08/13/pro...ual-test-drive/

Yeah, I'm driving Waja CPS. Go to the 1 post in the CPS thread for some video. thumbup.gif
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post Oct 14 2008, 05:21 PM

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QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 14 2008, 10:29 AM)
L15A still lose to D15B by the way, L15A 110PS D15B 130PS and B16B 175PS. Let's see what's in AVTEC in the coming 3 years.

Definitely... B16 is another story than L15... And Campro and CPS, even the Lotus Manager will tell it is 10 years back technology when my dad went for Lotus Exige S. And my brother knew the engineer of Campro and CPS, Campro is fixed cam profiling which the engineer said nothing much, while CPS it's like they modified it into 2 set of fixed valve timing to provide better low end torque, no lifting for CPS and Campro. And that engineer says, "CPS and Campro are old tech la, but still Ok if it is on Manual Transmission"
*
so how exactly the cps changed between "2 set of fixed valve timing" ?
via different 2 fixed cam lobe in a single camshaft?
how was that different than that in b16 VTEC?

QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 14 2008, 04:24 PM)
If only I heard wrong from the engineer than I may be wrong... Lotus is an engineering company, they don't have their own engine but they have all the research and technology. Such as the Lotus Exige S, Elise... They are using Toyota 1.8 VVT-i engine for Elise, and for Exige S, they supercharge it. And the ultra light weight and super handling Lotus chassis. So that indeed Campro and CPS they say only Cam Profile Switching, no lifting. Believe it or not, Proton claims that Waja CPS 125PS, but yet on the road they still lose to 110PS L15A.
*
what a backfire statement doh.gif
waja cps weights 1235KG and 125bhp while city weight only 1090KG and 110bhp doh.gif
even the super b16 VTEC claimed 160bhp lost to 122bhp lotus elise doh.gif

QUOTE(sphiroth @ Oct 14 2008, 04:51 PM)
Paultan already dyno a CPS Gen.2 at got about 109whp in a hot afternoon.  doh.gif
*
thats already on-crank bhp for honda city.. after all the transmission loss, i wonder how the L15A will win blush.gif
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post Oct 14 2008, 05:28 PM

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QUOTE(imperialrealcs @ Oct 14 2008, 05:21 PM)
so how exactly the cps changed between "2 set of fixed valve timing" ?
via different 2 fixed cam lobe in a single camshaft?
how was that different than that in b16 VTEC?
what a backfire statement doh.gif
waja cps weights 1235KG and 125bhp while city weight only 1090KG and 110bhp doh.gif
even the super b16 VTEC claimed 160bhp lost to 122bhp lotus elise doh.gif
thats already on-crank bhp for honda city.. after all the transmission loss, i wonder how the L15A will win  blush.gif
*
I wonder if his engineer friend is really an engineer.. whistling.gif laugh.gif
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post Oct 14 2008, 06:22 PM

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proton neh??
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post Oct 14 2008, 06:46 PM

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I think the new Campro CPS should be faster than the L15A VTEC. L15A VTEC is only on par with the older Campro + manual. With the extra power and torque on the new CPS, the old L15A sure will lose, unless you are talking bout the new L15A iVTEC which has yet to be proven. smile.gif
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post Oct 14 2008, 07:43 PM

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i tot the new jazz vtec got 120hp?
dstl1128
post Oct 14 2008, 08:18 PM

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QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 14 2008, 04:24 PM)
Such as the Lotus Exige S, Elise... They are using Toyota 1.8 VVT-i engine for Elise, and for Exige S, they supercharge it.
*
Exige (and Exige S) uses VVTL-i 2ZZGE Toyota engine with Lotus own ECU and settings.


Added on October 14, 2008, 8:20 pm
QUOTE(imperialrealcs @ Oct 14 2008, 05:21 PM)
thats already on-crank bhp for honda city.. after all the transmission loss, i wonder how the L15A will win  blush.gif
*
Probably 4spd auto Waja CPS vs L15A CVT?




This post has been edited by dstl1128: Oct 14 2008, 08:20 PM
ZeroSP
post Oct 15 2008, 12:25 AM

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Ok... Since I am making so much noob statement here... I just don't know how to explain then... Anyway, thanks sphiroth for the link. And to imperial, I have to respect whatever you say.. But what I test is just what I say bout the CPS vs L15, and City dun have that much transmission lost because don't have the torque converter... So forgive me everyone if you all cant take my noob statement.

This post has been edited by ZeroSP: Oct 15 2008, 12:28 AM
sphiroth
post Oct 15 2008, 12:31 AM

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QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 15 2008, 12:25 AM)
Ok... Since I am making so much noob statement here... I just don't know how to explain then... Anyway, thanks sphiroth for the link. And to imperial, I have to respect whatever you say.. But what I test is just what I say bout the CPS vs L15, and City dun have that much transmission lost because don't have the torque converter... So forgive me everyone if you all cant take my noob statement.
*
Nevermind, we all make mistake. But if you're not sure about something, better put 'AFAIK' or 'IMHO' before you're statement. nod.gif
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post Oct 15 2008, 12:48 AM

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What's your 0-100 timing sphiroth? From the video, its like 10-11 secs...
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post Oct 15 2008, 02:31 AM

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QUOTE(dstl1128 @ Oct 14 2008, 08:18 PM)
Exige (and Exige S) uses VVTL-i 2ZZGE Toyota engine with Lotus own ECU and settings.


Added on October 14, 2008, 8:20 pm
Probably 4spd auto Waja CPS vs L15A CVT?
*
but cvt transmission loss way much lesser than conventional autobox wo sweat.gif

QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 15 2008, 12:25 AM)
Ok... Since I am making so much noob statement here... I just don't know how to explain then... Anyway, thanks sphiroth for the link. And to imperial, I have to respect whatever you say.. But what I test is just what I say bout the CPS vs L15, and City dun have that much transmission lost because don't have the torque converter... So forgive me everyone if you all cant take my noob statement.
*
its alright laugh.gif
juz dont say ur vtec is heaven and other was hell.. u will definitely spark flame from other owner..
try to do a neutral comparison next time, i love to flame fanboi tongue.gif
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post Oct 15 2008, 02:57 PM

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QUOTE(imperialrealcs @ Oct 15 2008, 02:31 AM)
but cvt transmission loss way much lesser than conventional autobox wo sweat.gif
*
I though that's the reason L15A+CVT could possibly wins Waja Campro CPS auto.
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post Oct 15 2008, 06:13 PM

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QUOTE(dstl1128 @ Oct 15 2008, 02:57 PM)
I though that's the reason L15A+CVT could possibly wins Waja Campro CPS auto.
*
aiyo boss, since cvt has much lesser power loss, thats y we are comparing with campro cps manual
but dyno figure tells that on wheel for cps already same as L15A VTEC on crank power.. so after all the transmission loss, how can the L15A VTEC win the cps?
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post Oct 15 2008, 08:41 PM

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How about car weight? Gear change latency?
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post Oct 15 2008, 08:57 PM

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QUOTE(imperialrealcs @ Oct 15 2008, 06:13 PM)
aiyo boss, since cvt has much lesser power loss, thats y we are comparing with campro cps manual
but dyno figure tells that on wheel for cps already same as L15A VTEC on crank power.. so after all the transmission loss, how can the L15A VTEC win the cps?
*
Well, i suppose the Waja will still pull away from the 1st gen Jazz but by a small margin only. Coz like someone mentioned here, power to weight ratio and CVT can keep the power and torque at constant rpm while the manual in the Waja CPS will need to upshift, hence it cant hold forever at its peak power like how the CVT can do.

But i have tried real world test between the 1st gen Jazz with L15A VTEC against a Gen2 R3 MME from standstill drag on an empty land. The Jazz with L15A VTEC had a full HotBits 4-2-1 full straight flow exhaust system + K&N open pod with custom air-ram pipe on 17inch rolling stock, while the Gen2 R3 MME (without CPS) has stock R3 4-2-1 full straight flow exhaust system + R3 spark plug cables + K&N drop-in air filter on 16inch rolling stock. Manage to do few runs and the result is pretty constant which is both are on par neck-to-neck battle for about 600m drag where the Gen2 manage to hit 3rd gear and both still pulling side by side. smile.gif
Lim Ling Yang
post Oct 15 2008, 11:05 PM

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CVT is gay lol.
Anyways IINM there is gonna be a racing spec hybrid civic with performance cvt.....lol....I find the idea....odd....
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post Oct 16 2008, 12:13 AM

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QUOTE(dstl1128 @ Oct 15 2008, 08:41 PM)
How about car weight? Gear change latency?
*
city lighter by about 200kg.. but both shift as fast? or maybe the cvt would be slightly lower

QUOTE(Gouki @ Oct 15 2008, 08:57 PM)
Well, i suppose the Waja will still pull away from the 1st gen Jazz but by a small margin only. Coz like someone mentioned here, power to weight ratio and CVT can keep the power and torque at constant rpm while the manual in the Waja CPS will need to upshift, hence it cant hold forever at its peak power like how the CVT can do.

But i have tried real world test between the 1st gen Jazz with L15A VTEC against a Gen2 R3 MME from standstill drag on an empty land. The Jazz with L15A VTEC had a full HotBits 4-2-1 full straight flow exhaust system + K&N open pod with custom air-ram pipe on 17inch rolling stock, while the Gen2 R3 MME (without CPS) has stock R3 4-2-1 full straight flow exhaust system + R3 spark plug cables + K&N drop-in air filter on 16inch rolling stock. Manage to do few runs and the result is pretty constant which is both are on par neck-to-neck battle for about 600m drag where the Gen2 manage to hit 3rd gear and both still pulling side by side. smile.gif
*
the oldest campro was disaster.. fullstop
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post Oct 16 2008, 01:00 AM

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QUOTE(imperialrealcs @ Oct 16 2008, 12:13 AM)
city lighter by about 200kg.. but both shift as fast? or maybe the cvt would be slightly lower
the oldest campro was disaster.. fullstop
*
Lol cvt doesnt shift gears.



BTW out of topic. I know a car that has 200bhp which does 0-100 in less than 4 seconds.
drool.gif drool.gif drool.gif
To buy it you only pay rm314,188.00 including insurance.
And it is only 2261 cc so the tax is cheap.

This post has been edited by Lim Ling Yang: Oct 16 2008, 01:01 AM
ZeroSP
post Oct 16 2008, 04:29 AM

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CVT 7-speed... The CPS that I run is Waja... I used the manual mode anyway...
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post Oct 16 2008, 10:29 AM

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QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 16 2008, 04:29 AM)
CVT 7-speed... The CPS that I run is Waja... I used the manual mode anyway...
*
Lol that 7 speed is fake one haha.
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post Oct 16 2008, 10:54 AM

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QUOTE(ZeroSP @ Oct 16 2008, 04:29 AM)
CVT 7-speed... The CPS that I run is Waja... I used the manual mode anyway...
*
A continuously variable transmission (CVT) is a transmission which can change steplessly through an infinite number of effective gear ratios..

wikipedia.

you want speed and you want to save fuel? go play your need for speed or any racing game.

又要马儿跑得好,又不给马吃草。

want horse run fast, but don let horse eat grass

how to give u horsepower? no horsepower no speed.
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post Oct 16 2008, 01:34 PM

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QUOTE(Lim Ling Yang @ Oct 16 2008, 10:29 AM)
Lol that 7 speed is fake one haha.
*
Don't say 'fake' la.. use 'virtual' instead. laugh.gif

QUOTE(greedy5513 @ Oct 16 2008, 10:54 AM)
A continuously variable transmission (CVT) is a transmission which can change steplessly through an infinite number of effective gear ratios..

wikipedia.

you want speed and you want to save fuel? go play your need for speed or any racing game.

又要马儿跑得好,又不给马吃草。

want horse run fast, but don let horse eat grass

how to give u horsepower? no horsepower no speed.
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Can. Give your horse a dose of steroids (NOS). But beware that your horse may died of heart attack (blown engine). whistling.gif
kcng
post Oct 16 2008, 01:44 PM

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QUOTE(Lim Ling Yang @ Oct 15 2008, 11:05 PM)
CVT is gay lol.
Anyways IINM there is gonna be a racing spec hybrid civic with performance cvt.....lol....I find the idea....odd....
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people can terasa wei
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dstl1128
post Oct 16 2008, 01:52 PM

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Maybe the 'gay' he meant is the happy/merry type, not the homo type.
pillage2001
post Oct 16 2008, 02:48 PM

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Vtec

Vtec have the same idea with DVVT and VVT-i. It acts like a normal fossil combustion engine in low RPM, however when the user revs until certain limit (usuall 5000rpm). The valve timer would activate (this is what people usually calls Vtec change) and produce a noisy sound.

It sounds a little bit like a 2-stroke motorcycle engine revs high. You feel like the torque suddenly increases and you have more power to accelerate.

What actually happens is that the valve intake open longer than normal. Allowing more air to come into the combustion chamber. The more air in the chamber, the more efficient the fuel burns.



I LOLed.....
farid_cool
post Feb 20 2009, 08:20 AM

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hello
where can I get more information about dvvt and vvt?
i tried google everything about these title, especially dvvt but found little information.
thanks
TSNTX
post Feb 20 2009, 09:48 AM

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QUOTE(farid_cool @ Feb 20 2009, 08:20 AM)
hello
where can I get more information about dvvt and vvt?
i tried google everything about these title, especially dvvt but found little information.
thanks
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dvvt and vvt is the same..
dstl1128
post Feb 20 2009, 10:21 AM

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When talking about these abbrevation, you have to make sure you are taking "marketing keyword" vs "marketing keyword" instead of "marketing keyword" vs "general term".

VVT, variable valve timing as general term, can be said to mean "the engine have this variable valve technology", but not specific technology from specific company. And as a general term, it basically encapsulate all the valve technology you know out there.

VVT, as marketing term, can also means the technology used in the 15+yrs old engine 20valve 4AGE - which is vastly different from VVT-i (another marketing term) from Toyota of current cars.


QUOTE(NTX @ Feb 20 2009, 09:48 AM)
dvvt and vvt is the same..
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AFAIK, DVVT is the marketing term for Perodua VVT technology. However, I'm not sure which VVT you compare to - the 15yrs old one or the general term. If you mean the 15yr old one, it is definitely not the same.

This post has been edited by dstl1128: Feb 20 2009, 10:23 AM
jamik
post Feb 20 2009, 10:22 AM

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VVL neo should be in list... one of most powerfull engine by Nissan... design to beat vtec,,, nod.gif icon_rolleyes.gif
dstl1128
post Feb 20 2009, 10:25 AM

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QUOTE(jamik @ Feb 20 2009, 10:22 AM)
VVL neo should be in list... one of most powerfull engine by Nissan... design to beat vtec,,, nod.gif  icon_rolleyes.gif
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Already mentioned few pages back. wink.gif

p/s: Of course it will beat VTEC, because it is more advance (refer to the link above).
TSNTX
post Feb 20 2009, 05:37 PM

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QUOTE(dstl1128 @ Feb 20 2009, 10:21 AM)
When talking about these abbrevation, you have to make sure you are taking "marketing keyword" vs "marketing keyword" instead of "marketing keyword" vs "general term".

VVT, variable valve timing as general term, can be said to mean "the engine have this variable valve technology", but not specific technology from specific company. And as a general term, it basically encapsulate all the valve technology you know out there.

VVT, as marketing term, can also means the technology used in the 15+yrs old engine 20valve 4AGE - which is vastly different from VVT-i (another marketing term) from Toyota of current cars.
AFAIK, DVVT is the marketing term for Perodua VVT technology. However, I'm not sure which VVT you compare to - the 15yrs old one or the general term. If you mean the 15yr old one, it is definitely not the same.
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im comparing to vvti..
farid_cool
post Feb 20 2009, 08:01 PM

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thanks
but seems to be hard to find information for both technology
searching on journals also not give better result
sphiroth
post Mar 4 2009, 05:37 PM

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Just dyno my car... brows.gif

user posted image
SUSSeLrAhC
post Mar 4 2009, 06:06 PM

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while japs are still into valve tech... vw already got http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_Stratified_Injection

is it better than all these funny valve thingie?
dstl1128
post Mar 4 2009, 09:23 PM

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QUOTE(SeLrAhC @ Mar 4 2009, 06:06 PM)
while japs are still into valve tech... vw already got http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_Stratified_Injection

is it better than all these funny valve thingie?
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Huh? The wiki point to the technology that the japs already have in the 90s. While VW started in early 2000.

 

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