One thing i don't understand..............
if you're Hyjal/BT geared......................................................... why leave ur current guild ?
Obviously ur guild successfully geared you, so why leave?

Only reasons i can think of (which are all negative)
- you're a ninja
- you're not loyal

Of course, i'm not accusing u of either of those, just saying bcos i see
people leave their guilds all the time... Of course the occasional guild disband
may occur but it's very rare.... cos seriously, who would disband a BT guild??

EDIT: It's not a recruitment shortage...
It's SW guild expecting too much.... they want a BT geared toon, but who would leave a BT guild
just for a SW guild? 'cos their guild might progress into SW themself soon.

Said it before and will always say it; skill > gear.

If an applicant shows that they have done raiding at different levels, can perform exceptionally well (be it BWL, AQ40, Kara, TK, etc.) and shows evidence of it (meters, WWS and such are not conclusive enough) both in achievements/kills, time put in and what has been looted, then you can be fairly certain the person knows how to play his class. All that is lacking is the gear to perform at higher levels.

That said, if possible, take applicants for a trial run and see how they do. If they are a server transfer applicant, then that'll require a lot of time investigating his/her background and history. Sounds time-consuming but better to save both your time and his/her money. Will discuss more Saturday.

BT transition to SW IS NOT RM10k to RM20k...
more like RM10k to RM12k....
Besides, if my guild have been good to me to include me into every raids
and i have established a good relationship with everyone, i won't jump ship.
Who knows what might happen in the other company..... maybe they won't appreciate
me that much and i hafta reestablish my relationship with everyone.... really not worth the RM2k IMHO.

TLDR: i lol @ your intelligence.

EDIT: Typos

Yea it's always risky to recruit undergeared people, same as it is recruiting ebayed toons (who in their right mind would? "Look at his armory, gear will overcome any skill deficiency"). It's difficult but that's down to how you would screen and be willing to accommodate the person into your guild and raid plans.

If you're in Kara, taking all greens would be acceptable imo. Going to TK/SSC, you'd expect all blues at the very least. Going BT/Hyjal, then you need epix. Standards go up as you raid higher tiers so there're still requirements in place and need to be met. Doesn't need to have the gear equivalent of what you are raiding, can always be a tier or two below.

In the end, it's down to you, your call; do you have the time and patience to take him through what is required to bring him up to par gear-wise? Will your guild be receptive to the idea? Will your raiders be willing to pass on loot that are minor upgrades for them but are "I've-waited-forever-to-drop" loot when it's a bigger upgrade for the newbie?

Pros and cons, it's how you want to weigh it in the end. To me, it's like football..you either find a gem of a player in the end or you end up with trash so to speak 

If you're a BT guild, the next progression would be SW...
what else is there to raid if not SW ??

Just 2 lines of simple facts....
www.dictionary.com it if you do not understand.

Kara --> SSC = 10k to 20k (becos u skipped gruul's/mag and za)
But BT --> SW IS NOT = 10k to 20k.... it's already the next thing in ur progression list.
@ Myremi, can't we have a friendly discussion around here?
Call that PVP fanboy of yours to stop the name calling then maybe we can finally discuss some
logic here.

Alright, let me be the first to start some linking here...
according to this chart,



If you can down illidan, you are ready to start SW.
Please emphasis on the bold lettering....

forget ur stupid logics like in the other threads where i asked if i'm
ready for za and u guys are talking about bear runs lol wut.

As you start SW and farm on the earlier bosses, u will get better...
if you're thinking of starting SW and immediately downing kil'jaeden, then yeah, u need T8.

*EH = Effective Health (for u non-tanking ppl)
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/warrior-ref...e-minimums.html

well king how far in wow have you raided?
have you seen kaelthas? not the mgt 1
have you seen vash?
have you seen arch?
have you wiped like f*** in MH? have you got 16 members dc during trash mobs in MH? have you even seen alar in tk?

if no then please dont think killing intraweb monsters is like killing a fly it's not. kara is not srsbiznez. try venturing furtherb4 commenting alot

Yes, apparently Tanks and healers make or break raids...
if your tanks and healers are over-geared, you can carry slightly undergeared dps-ers...
it just takes longer to kill things.

But if your tank is undergeared, tank will die from not able to take hits....
either that or DPS significantly outgears tank and WILL pull aggro... all choas breaks lose.

So yeah, TANK and HEALER make or break raids.
btw, L2Read....

Resteering back to the topic at hand.

Recruiting an undergeared epic-geared player for BT + Hyjal + Sunwell.

Why? Reasons for yes and no.

Since this thread has gone OT.

You have to considered undergeared applicants.  While it's always nice to recruit someone who is geared for the content you're progressing in, this may not always be possible.  You have to be realistic here, either you recruit for needed raid spots or you don't raid.  In the last 2 months we've geared up a retridin, enhancement shaman and we've just taken in a new resto shaman, tankadin and shadowpriest.  There's so much loot in BT/MH that the gearing up goes relatively quickly in there even though we were relatively late in progressing.  As it is a lot of loot in MH/BT is getting disenchanted.  So as it is, we're clearing MH+BT in 2 days (about 8 hours), even with undergeared scrubs in the guild.  Although I have to say we're stopping MH soon to give us more time in SP.

Having some good crafted BOPs and badge epics is indicative of raider who's willing to put time in to gear himself up.  Similarly having a nice wws is indicative of good player although you have to read those things carefully as you're often missing things like (for healing) group setup, what his role was (MT healing, raid healing) and generally why everyone else sucked so bad.  At the end of the day the most important thing is to recruit someone who wants to play an important role in progression, who will turn up for raids - especially the wipe raids, and who has the right attitude (ie laughing at felmyst wipes rather than quitting).  It's more important to make sure he fits in with your guild/raid socially than anything else imo.

But then again maybe i'm biased as we have a smallish guild (<40 raiders) and we only do 4 x 4hr raid days a week so it's even more important for the new joiner to fit in.

and yeah, you don't even know tanks and healers are the backbone of raids...
oh wait, you're a PVP fanboy....
Nothing wrong with being a PVP fanboi, i wonder why did you think it's a bad thing.
I myself am a playstation fanboi.... so what if i hate Nintendo/xbox ?

You're in za and i'm in kara?
big deal?? Hell, if i were playing since wow beta like most u guys, i'd prolly be in SW by now.
So tell me, why aren't u guys in SW ??

name calling = bad
<insert a word here> fanboi = not bad

I don't wanna go to the PVP vs PVE since it's a never ending argument.
But playing for more than 3 years DOES matter.

'cos if you've been playing since the beginning of time, you are expected to have cleared the game (PVE wise, as in... killed the last boss of the hardest raid).
And blizzard releases new raids, why? Bcos there is nothing left to do.... so they release new raids, i'd expect long timers like you to jump straight into it.
but that is not the case.

So here i am, 3 years later finally picked up the game, started raiding and am now in kara.
You ridicule me of being in kara... but i don't think it's a bad thing.... considering u were in cloud 9 cos u had more HP in ur welfare epics
than when i just dinged 70 (i'll never forget that, fukken epic ).

Maybe that's why u're in a PVP realm, you get satisfaction out of ganking lowbies.
The only thing u proved by being in a PVP realm is u got too much time in ur hands (which again brings us back to why u have been playing longer).
Longer.................... u've been playing longer................................ and u're in za..................................... and u're dam proud of it.

omg where have i been lately...
should've known this part of the forums is always the best read when i have a mind block...
go on guys, i need more amusement

BT to sunwell is rm 10k to rm 50k IMO. The lvl of difficulty is way way way higher in sunwell. We are doing prenerf bosses. 1 mistake = wipe. Imagine we need 27777k dps on brut.

---

Added on June 4, 2008, 12:30 pm@ myremi

Unrated has recruited a lot of undergeared ppl (ssc/tk/boj standard) for sunwell, but there is a gearing process involved. we really need 4/5 t6 gear in sunwell bosses, thru the gearing period, we evaluate ppl to see whether they will be able to handle sunwell

Most importantly, like i said in many of my other posts, the most important thing is commitment. Skills and gear will come eventually, but you must have the right attitude in raiding. Thats why we require our trails to get all their best boj items they can get, and if possible, respec LW for drums, before handing them their 1st piece of T6

As for the skill>gear debate, i want to point out somthing. If you cant get your rotations right in BT, just quit the game. Skill in sunwell means reaction time, the ability to decide what your next move will be, the ability to predict what you other 24 members will do, and the ability to respond in the case that an unexpected situation occurs.

I wasn't talking about u... u're a PVP fanboi, so it's expected u'd be spending ur time PVPing.
That was directed more towards ppl who used the "zomfg, i'm in BT and u're in Kara" on me.
Over 3 years and not in SW, i'd be ashamed if i were them than using it to brag.


Until today, i still can't seem to knock some sense into ur head that tank gearing is not easy as other classes. To you, tanks can get phr33 epix from welfare epics too. So i'll just stop trying to explain.


Who said i'm not gearing myself with welfare?
On my tank, i can't.... but on my shaman, i am.
I don't have full welfare on my shaman yet, only bcos i am waiting for S2 (zomfg, new and better epix)
But i do have the bracers and boots already bcos i know i won't be using S4's bracers + boots cos they require PR.


as if attacking someone with half hp while he is fighting a mob is any different.
as if attacking someone when he isn't ready is any different.
You feel a sense of accomplishment killing ppl that way, don't cha ?

Explain the brutallus fight then

Maybe you think that way, coz you are a tank and healers keep you up in raids. kara,za,gruul wise, DPS is not really important. Blizzard has been really lenient on the difficulty of those bosses.

Late BT onwards, we try to minimize the number of healers to bring more DPS in, because the time to down a boss is significant. In the end of the day, we still have to factor luck into our calculations. ur 550 def rating does not mean you can block 3-4 shots in a row, its still a %. the faster we down a boss, we reduce our chance of wiping, and we get more time to try bosses in sunwell

It's normal that instances have gear checks; BWL has Vael, AQ40 has Fangkriss (iirc), Naxx has Patchwerk, etc. So DPS is crucial as well as stated above; the quicker the kill, the easier it is on everyone else from class roles to time spent moving/adjusting/reacting. I wouldn't put any role above the other in terms of tank>heal>dps. All are important and can't have too much imbalance; super tank, mediocre healer, weak dps etc.

It's normal that instances have gear checks; BWL has Vael, AQ40 has Fangkriss (iirc), Naxx has Patchwerk, etc. So DPS is crucial as well as stated above; the quicker the kill, the easier it is on everyone else from class roles to time spent moving/adjusting/reacting. I wouldn't put any role above the other in terms of tank>heal>dps. All are important and can't have too much imbalance; super tank, mediocre healer, weak dps etc.

oi... I'm sure you can all stick to the topic and keep the "me is smarter than you" posts out.

Right, Princess, forgot her name. I only looked forward to twin emps and cthun which was a bish to get to 

Funnily enough, lots of posts from people who either don't raid BT/SWP or aren't raid leaders in PVE guilds.

I have a lot of thoughts on this subject since it's something that every raiding guild that wants to push progression will have to face.

Too bad I'll be AFK till tonight.

As par for the course for these forums, a few decent posts from people who do raid actively vs a lot of background noise.

Will post more tonight since this is the most interesting topic on the boards in recent times.

Actually, i've not done Gruul yet but i don't think it's possible to bring in undergeared ppl for gruul's too.
bcos of growls.

ZA loot plus new badge gear is more than good enough for MH/BT. Some badge pieces outperform the BT drops. So if you are recruiting for example something like 7/9 BT 4/5 MH, make sure they are fitted in ZA/badge/craft gears in most slots. The ZA/badge is not so much to be par for course, but to show that the applicant is dedicated enough to farm gears. People in kara pieces applying are clearly expecting charity handouts.

What about pushing Sunwell, is ZA/badge enough? I would say sure. To push Sunwell, you need to farm BT continuously to get more lolglaives. Brutallus is hard without glaives and skulls. Farming BT can really tire out your fully-geared core raiders, so why not bring these new recruits to gear up while doing it.

Careful what examples you choose to use. There are reasons why he used blue items, and it's not because he doesn't have epic gear.

hmm just checked the other thread... not too sure about my plans on saturday.
just got into an accident and my car is in the workshop, i don't think my gf would like the idea of fetching me to a WoW gathering since we've got limited "alone" time these days due to her madman of a father