Just for the sake of discussion. From those BT + Hyjal + Sunwell raiding guilds.

With new recruits for BT + Hyjal + Sunwell, would you consider an undergeared applicant?

Consider before saying no :

a) Majority of the raiders would have already been geared enough that they can carry a few undergeared ppl through. Not a lot but a few.
b) With the Sunwell badge loot, they are wearing SSC/TK equivalent, if not for some that are also best in slot.
c) Some of the crafting professions already give best-in-slot items e.g. Alchemist's Stone. Some, mind you.
d) If they link you a WWS where they were doing pretty well with healing, would you consider them?

There seems to be a severe shortage of recruits for BT + Hyjal + Sunwell. Well, across all servers by the looks of things.

Am wondering how other guilds are managing this.

EDIT : Undergeared = Kara/Gruul/Mag/Badge Epic Gear. Does not include any greens/blues.

This post has been edited by myremi: Jun 4 2008, 10:47 AM

One thing i don't understand..............
if you're Hyjal/BT geared......................................................... why leave ur current guild ?
Obviously ur guild successfully geared you, so why leave?

Only reasons i can think of (which are all negative)
- you're a ninja
- you're not loyal

Of course, i'm not accusing u of either of those, just saying bcos i see
people leave their guilds all the time... Of course the occasional guild disband
may occur but it's very rare.... cos seriously, who would disband a BT guild??

EDIT: It's not a recruitment shortage...
It's SW guild expecting too much.... they want a BT geared toon, but who would leave a BT guild
just for a SW guild? 'cos their guild might progress into SW themself soon.

This post has been edited by King83: Jun 4 2008, 08:44 AM

if your job earns you rm10k, successful job. why leave your current job?
until job b offers 20k maybe?

so, this guy that is looking for better opportunities in job b =
ninja (lolwut, ninja confidential company documents)
not loyal

and who would disband a BT guild? DNT (death n texas, in case ur wondering), ex-top world guild, ex-top US guild, disbanded a sunwell raiding guild. BT? not that big of a deal nowdays.

TLDR: i lol @ your intelligence.

Said it before and will always say it; skill > gear.

If an applicant shows that they have done raiding at different levels, can perform exceptionally well (be it BWL, AQ40, Kara, TK, etc.) and shows evidence of it (meters, WWS and such are not conclusive enough) both in achievements/kills, time put in and what has been looted, then you can be fairly certain the person knows how to play his class. All that is lacking is the gear to perform at higher levels.

That said, if possible, take applicants for a trial run and see how they do. If they are a server transfer applicant, then that'll require a lot of time investigating his/her background and history. Sounds time-consuming but better to save both your time and his/her money. Will discuss more Saturday.

it is certain that skill !> gear
or gear > skill

in terms of gear > skill, you've made your point so i wont go there. however, think about this:

outline:
guy is f***ing uber, response 200%, skill, thinking, talent speccing, anything you name it, perfect or more.
gear? all greens.

outcome:

pve-
6k hp 8k mana unbuffed priest.
almost safe to say anything aoe would 1 shot this guy, or put him really critical, to draw unwanted attention of overhealings from other healers. and even if he can heal, 8k mana with shit healing wont do much TBH.
gearing him up? lets say, pve gearing, is all bout random rolls, luck of drop, and lol manipulating the dkp system (or relative loot distribution system)
what if even the guild, is so generous to run this guy to kara, ssc, tk, bt, hj, in attempt to get him ready for SW, but loots NEVER DROP. all void crystal or something random for someone else?

pvp-
yea, you may have the insane f***ing reaction, but when ur 0 resilience and some guy in full S3 just comes over you curb stomping you to the ground, i dont think it matters. imagine a train wrecking through a clueless 5 year old pre-school kid thats unfortunate enough to cross the rail track when the train's coming. so quick, its almost painless.

that said, if you have skills, you can get gear in notime, like badge loots for pve, welfare arena/bg items for pvp.
but think about it, when the person is recruiting that said undergeared guy, would the person wait for him? of course not. tough luck, send in another application etc etc. when ur geared.

=edit=
typo in bold

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Jun 4 2008, 09:47 AM

BT transition to SW IS NOT RM10k to RM20k...
more like RM10k to RM12k....
Besides, if my guild have been good to me to include me into every raids
and i have established a good relationship with everyone, i won't jump ship.
Who knows what might happen in the other company..... maybe they won't appreciate
me that much and i hafta reestablish my relationship with everyone.... really not worth the RM2k IMHO.

TLDR: i lol @ your intelligence.

EDIT: Typos

This post has been edited by King83: Jun 4 2008, 09:58 AM

Yea it's always risky to recruit undergeared people, same as it is recruiting ebayed toons (who in their right mind would? "Look at his armory, gear will overcome any skill deficiency"). It's difficult but that's down to how you would screen and be willing to accommodate the person into your guild and raid plans.

If you're in Kara, taking all greens would be acceptable imo. Going to TK/SSC, you'd expect all blues at the very least. Going BT/Hyjal, then you need epix. Standards go up as you raid higher tiers so there're still requirements in place and need to be met. Doesn't need to have the gear equivalent of what you are raiding, can always be a tier or two below.

In the end, it's down to you, your call; do you have the time and patience to take him through what is required to bring him up to par gear-wise? Will your guild be receptive to the idea? Will your raiders be willing to pass on loot that are minor upgrades for them but are "I've-waited-forever-to-drop" loot when it's a bigger upgrade for the newbie?

Pros and cons, it's how you want to weigh it in the end. To me, it's like football..you either find a gem of a player in the end or you end up with trash so to speak

This post has been edited by Odinn: Jun 4 2008, 10:05 AM

Kings83, I'm doing something I've never ask someone on this forum to do. Can you please keep quiet in this thread? I'd rather hear from other raiders rather than your prejudices.

Quaz, be nice. Even if Kings83 is irritating, just ignore him.

This post just tempted me to post moar...
gratz

i wouldnt bring a undergeared player to bt/mh/sw

being in a bt raiding guild i forced my raid leader to say no blues/greens in bt/mh(unless it's trinkets) other then that ssc/tk i wouldnt bring green geared ppl, why should i bother gearing up ppl when they have no intention of doing it them self?

IMO btw dont flame if you think im wrong/stupid/just want to flame for no fkn reason :/

Trinklets? That's the easiest epic badge upgrade to get.

WTF?? BT/MH/SW still got people using greens/blues meh ??
You are right, they have no intensions of gearing themselves up...

you know, despite my attempt to upscale everything so even the simplest of a brain capacity would comprehend it, apparently it wasnt good enough for you.

point being there is a better opportunity, people move on, such a simple thing also couldnt understand?

and just for the sake of your stupidity, ask every known hardcore raider out there. ask them the difference between bt and sunwell. my 10k -> 20k jump is fairly relative.

---

Added on June 4, 2008, 10:26 amthat is true. case in point from my part would be warlocks spamming 1 button shadowbolt. thats a good example of gear > skill. however as i said, neither is actually > the other

for kara, its widely pug'ed. basically the TBC UBRS. bringing 1-2 all green (but not stupid) people is perfectly fine

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Jun 4 2008, 10:26 AM

If you're a BT guild, the next progression would be SW...
what else is there to raid if not SW ??

Just 2 lines of simple facts....
www.dictionary.com it if you do not understand.

some bt guilds cannot even do well in sunwell sad to say it's not as easy as saying OmFg kara>ssc lulz

Look guys, please do not get this thread locked ok? OKAY?

Kara --> SSC = 10k to 20k (becos u skipped gruul's/mag and za)
But BT --> SW IS NOT = 10k to 20k.... it's already the next thing in ur progression list.


@ Myremi, can't we have a friendly discussion around here?
Call that PVP fanboy of yours to stop the name calling then maybe we can finally discuss some
logic here.

Jas already said it so not much needed to be said since its not like your gonna understand anyways.

and if your gonna point me to a definition/fact link, at least point me to wowwiki or thottbot maybe? im pretty sure i wont be finding what your trying to refer to me from dictionary.com

myremi im being as polite as i can. btw king why do you think sunwell is a small upgrade form bt? mind to explain? i mean it's only logical to hear from both side b4 calling one another a retard.

If you're in BT and you're taking in blue/green geared people into your raid, I'd think it's very questionable too. You should be able to judge for yourself if a person was given a chance and that he would justify his opportunity given. Of course BT can't be taken lightly with green/blue gears. At least TK/SSC or badge gears, no tier skipping.