senior dreamer,i will not suggest to buy a pure critical ill insurance in Malaysia,this kind of 1d insurance only pay if get CI,and they are not cheaper than 3d(death,tpd and Dread desease)insurance in Malaysia.

This post has been edited by athlon 11: Dec 31 2008, 11:47 PM

athlon 11,

That is because we have VERY LITTLE competition in term of insurance in Malaysia. They price it this way so that you pay more.

Logically, for retired people with no income, why do they need death and tpd?? They have NO INCOME to protect. So far, I am not buying CI because it is not priced to worth my effort.

Dreamer

For what I can say if there is anybody who can do the same thing as you are saving without going out to enjoy, say at age 20-30, clubbing, drinking, mamaking, holiday, scuba diving, mountain biking or photography, anything which suits their interest and hobbies, plus going out on dates and movie, paying for phonebills (mayb during your time, Maxis wasn't around to suck you dry) means they are not enjoying their life. Anybody agree sez Aye!

What MRTA you talking about also I don't understand and what does it got to do with downpayment? Again I've mention that I insured the property based on their purchased value. Thus the sum assured would not go down even if I've paid an x amount when i KO.

-->How do you know that 2 years of expenses is equal to how many % of my total asset?? In fact, I excluded my 2 years of expenses as ANY part of my asset.

Well, I din said that. You self presumed. What I meant is how could u save up with the expenses and how lond did it took you? Have you factored it with the inflation rate? If comes with the inflation rate, then you would constantly need to top up. Another thing is my guess is that you are very stingy

calculated in term insurance. but does it matter? If you insist, I will provide for the wholelife

ok... I believe you are taking the term insurance as the tip of the iceberg. What you mentioned is for life. Some people may not need just life. Some may need PA, and some 36 Critical Ilness and some medical card. What you are terming into is only life insurance which not many would know, that they generalize insurance as just life insurance or PA only etc.

the right insurance, first we need to define the term insurance first before anything else. What kind of insurance? That's the real question

Let me tell you the problem in Malaysia. People want cheap and good which ends up the agent just bundled them up into an investment link policy which is so far cheaper of all in one compared to traditional policy

hamster9,

<<without going out to enjoy, say at age 20-30, clubbing, drinking, mamaking, holiday, scuba diving, mountain biking or photography, anything which suits their interest and hobbies, plus going out on dates and movie, paying for phonebills (mayb during your time, Maxis wasn't around to suck you dry) means they are not enjoying their life. Anybody agree sez Aye! >>

0) Those kind of people has NO MONEY to buy insurance. And, going bankrupt is MORE LIKELY that anything that is cover by insurance.

1) I made a lot more money than normal people in most of my career.

2) I was a sale manager once. At that time, all entertainment are paid by the company.

3) That is YOUR DEFINITION of enjoyment. It is NOT mine. My usual greatest entertainment expenses are BOOKS. I usually spent a few thousands on book every year.

<<What I meant is how could u save up with the expenses and how lond did it took you? >>

4) Simple maths. If I save 50% of my gross income and I live on ONLY 25% of my income. It only take me ONE years to save 2 years worth of expenses.

<<Have you factored it with the inflation rate? If comes with the inflation rate, then you would constantly need to top up. >>

5) inflation rate for FRUGAL people is lower than normal people.

<<Another thing is my guess is that you are very stingy>>

6) I live a FRUGAL life style.

7) Average people is not financially independent. Financially independent people is not average. So, you have to make a CHOICE to be AVERAGE or Financially independent. You had made yours.

<<ok... I believe you are taking the term insurance as the tip of the iceberg. What you mentioned is for life. Some people may not need just life. Some may need PA, and some 36 Critical Ilness and some medical card. What you are terming into is only life insurance which not many would know, that they generalize insurance as just life insurance or PA only etc. >>

8) Bingo. You must an insurance agent. It is in YOUR BEST INTEREST for people to buy as much insurance as possible. You do not care whether they need it.

<<What MRTA you talking about also I don't understand and what does it got to do with downpayment? Again I've mention that I insured the property based on their purchased value. Thus the sum assured would not go down even if I've paid an x amount when i KO.>>

9) General life insurance paid a certain amount. The benefactor has the CHOICE to use the money however they like. MRTA ONLY pay to the housing loan and nothing else. And, in general, Bank forces you to buy MRTA if you down payment is only 10% to 20%.

<<People want cheap and good which ends up the agent just bundled them up into an investment link policy which is so far cheaper of all in one compared to traditional policy >>

10) Investment liked policy is EVEN WORSE than normal policy. You are PAYING extra fee to insurance company to but Unit Trust for you. You could have done it yourself aka buying the unit trust directly but you CHOOSE to pay EXTRA.

11) What is WRONG with TOUGH and EDUCATED customer that actually shop around for the best deal?? Nothing. unless you are an insurance agent that cannot handle that.

So, if you are an insurance agent, why don't you LEARN and EDUCATE your customer on proper usage of insurance?? So far, it looks like you do not understand insurance to begin with.

Dreamer

All,

Insurance is for RISK MANAGEMENT and RISK POOLING.

A) Insurance company's goal is to MAKE MONEY.

B) Your goal as a customer of insurance is to cover your RISK with reasonable costs.

So, let's have some common sense here, if you are OLD and most OLD people are likely to get sick, do you THINK that insurance will intentionally LOSE MONEY and give you a good deal on PREMIUM??

In the end, if you BUY XYZ type insurance, it only covers XYZ type of incidence and NOTHING else. So, if you buy life insurance, you get $$ if you DIED.

But, the problem is LIFE is full of EMERGENCIES that does not cover by insurance. You need EMERGENCY FUND and SAVINGS to protect yourself from that. For example, recession, unemployment and so on. I know people that are in 45 to 50 that can no longer find a job. They are healthy but unemployable. And, that is normal economy. So, insurance does not cover for that.

Insurance agent like to "BAIT and Switch" sales tactic. Blah, blah, blah, somebody got hit by something and they are in financial ruins. But, they usually conveniently forget to you that:

A) Insurance may not cover for that too.

B) The premium is SO HIGH that you are more likely to go bankrupt first before that kind of incidence happened.

My RULE of THUMB is you need to SAVE at least 10% to 15% of your gross income for financial survival. So, before you EVEN talk about buying insurance, you need to have that FIRST. And, you need to have 3 to 6 months of expense as Emergency Fund before even talking about buying car or house. Of course, insurance agent will advice you something else. Because if that is the RULE, they will have much fewer customers.

Your Emergency Fund / Savings is your first level of insurance. It covers for any POSSIBLE incidence / risk. It is YOUR MONEY

Every 10 years, people have to learn this. Recession is possible and you may be unemployed for a long time. Now, it is time for NEWBIE to learn this again.

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Jan 2 2009, 02:54 AM

Totally agree. Even before you have insurance you should have emergency funds. I had a previous experience of false alarm of appendix, eventhough I had my prudential insurance card,Subang Medical insisted that I must swipe RM5k from my credit card before being admitted. Imagine if I didn't have any emergency funds and it was a real emergency, I might have been dead today eventhough I had insurance.

People should be taught that insurance is only a form of risk management. In emergency cases, the most important thing you should have is money. Then only comes insurance, if at all. In some areas, I have to say insurance comes useful but it totally depends on each individual. It is wrong to make a blanket statement that everyone needs a particular plan because each individual needs and capabilities are different.

In one area where insurance is useful is when the breadwinner of a family dies. In this case, all financial assets are frozen immediately until the assets are administered by the court. If it is testate, it will take approx 1 year to execute and liquidate the assets and if cases of intestate, it will take 6-7 years. During this time, all the money in the world is useless because it is frozen. So if there are dependants who can't fend for themselves, then this is where the insurance comes handy as part of asset management, the dependants will be given a monthly income that is planned ie. RM5k for 1 year until assets are administered, or a creation of a trust account.



This post has been edited by DannyOP: Jan 2 2009, 02:42 AM

You are absolutely right here.


Define old? How many low yat members reading this is that old?


You are making this statement, because you only knows some insurance product. You've conveniently forgot to add that most Whole Life insurance and ILP covers Dreaded Diseases. Of course almost all life insurance covers TPD as well.
Also, if not for PIDM, is your saving in local bank safe? (At least for RM60k)


- Consumers have the right to ask what's covered, what's not covered.
- Consumers have 15 cooling days to read the policy thoroughly before agreeing on it, else they can cancel the plan and get full refund.
- Don't blame agents on this. Do car sales man tell you the weakness of his car? Do sales engineer tell you what his product cannot do in detail? Do real estate agents tell you the house got bad feng shui? This is SALES.


Which product do you mean here? Don't generalize all insurance product to have HIGH PREMIUM.

Financial planning rule is set aside 10% of your income for Insurance.
What incident that your saving in bank can cover but not insurance product? I can only think of one.
- Lost of income due to bad economy

What about other incidents then?
- Medical expenses.
- Lost of income due to dreaded diseases.
- Housing loan debt, debtor passed away.
Imagine cases above, how would you finance them? would you rather
- Use your own saving?
- Sell off your assets & investments?
- Ask from your parents, relatives & friends?
- Ask for donations from public?
- Claim from your insurance?

DannyOP,

<<In one area where insurance is useful is when the breadwinner of a family dies.>>

Have a JOINT A/C with your spouse. Tell him / her that if anything happen to you, withdraw the money out of the A/C first. Anyhow, that is a good idea in MOST cases anyhow. If the bread winner get into an accident, you need someone else to get money from the bank. Now, if you cannot TRUST your spouse with a joint A/C, you have a BIGGER problem than money.

Dreamer

How many spouse can keep such a cool head, able to go to bank to withdraw all the money out the minute something happen to his/her partner?
He/she could even forget what' the ATM PIN number!

On top of his or her partner forgot the PIN number for Joint Account, What about a couple dead together in one accident during traveling? What will happen to Joint A/C?

bbjslee,

<<Define old? How many low yat members reading this is that old?>>

Conversely, if your medical insurance is CHEAP while you are YOUNG, it is because you are less likely to get seriously sick. It is not you are getting a BETTER deal. Insurance company is a MONEY MAKING business. They know the risk level that they are covering. They are charging you accordingly.

<<You are making this statement, because you only knows some insurance product. You've conveniently forgot to add that most Whole Life>>

Here we go again:

A) Whole life = term life + savings / cash back

Except that if you save the premium difference between whole life and term life and put into FD, you make MORE MONEY.

Oop, I forgot. You are SELLING Insurance as per your post.


<<ILP covers Dreaded Diseases. >>

B) Yes, pay more to insurance agent in order to buy UNIT TRUST.


<<TPD>>

C) Read the FINE PRINT. It ONLY covers disability under CERTAIN circumstances. In USA, as long as you cannot WORK under ANY medical condition, you are covered.

<<- Consumers have the right to ask what's covered, what's not covered.
- Consumers have 15 cooling days to read the policy thoroughly before agreeing on it, else they can cancel the plan and get full refund.
- Don't blame agents on this. Do car sales man tell you the weakness of his car? Do sales engineer tell you what his product cannot do in detail? Do real estate agents tell you the house got bad feng shui? This is SALES.>>

D) Why should we listen to you to BEGIN with if you ARE NOT going to tell us what is NOT covered??

<<What about other incidents then?
- Medical expenses.
- Lost of income due to dreaded diseases.
- Housing loan debt, debtor passed away.>>

E) So?? Is that the ONLY kind of financial emergency that you can thunk of?? Of course, you are SELLING insurance. You ARE NOT going to tell when insurance does not work. We have to find out ourselves.

<< I can only think of one.
- Lost of income due to bad economy>>

F) You are either YOUNG and FOOLISH or DISHONEST. So, why should we listen to you??

G) Who say that economy has to be BAD for you to lose your job??

<<Imagine cases above, how would you finance them? would you rather
- Use your own saving?>>

H) "Bait and Switch" again. If you BUY all the insurance and cover to the MAX, you will go bankrupt FIRST.

<<Financial planning rule is set aside 10% of your income for Insurance. >>

I) Which is a bunch of BS. If a person cannot save 10% to 15% of their gross income to BEGIN with, why should they spend 10% on insurance?? In fact, if they do not have 10% to 15% savings, they will go bankrupt spending 10% on insurance.

J) Here we go again. Another sell tactic. You are INTERESTED ONLY in selling versus what is GOOD for the financial health of your customer.

K) Did you ever ask your customer whether they have EMERGENCY FUND before asking them to buy insurance??

L) Given that MOST young people is having problem saving money to begin with, I doubt they have ANY emergency fund. So, how does buying insurance and putting them in deeper hole help them??

M) You NEED to pay insurance premium in order to be covered. For people with NO SAVINGS, how long can their insurance last of they lose their job / income.



Dreamer

---

Added on January 2, 2009, 3:30 ambbjslee,

That is WHY you have practice. Make sure both spouse withdraw money regularly. Come on. you can withdraw money from the counter too.

transit,

That is WHY that you have a WILL and assign TRUSTEE when you have children.

This is BASIC financial and estate planning.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Jan 2 2009, 03:30 AM

Very clever of you, a whole sentence which is meant to be understood as a whole, you break it into 3 parts to answer them. Very clever of twisting.

I don't force you to listen. It is common sense, sales people do not tell all unless asked. And if they don't tell the truth, after being asked, that's cheating.


Interesting how you slice and dice my reply to answer it.
If you don't lose your job due to bad economy, chances are you're able to find a new job pretty quickly, unless you have your own personal problem.
Tell me then, OLD & WISE dreamer, what incidents you think is not covered by insurance?


Did I advice forum readers to buy ALL the insurance and cover to the MAX? Where you get the impression?


That is the person's own financial planning. I could never ask a poor person to insure themselves, they SURVIVE on ALL their income, they can't even save.


We're obliged to fact find the customer. Consumers nowadays are very picky and smart. They could read a thread like this and ask millions of questions to agents. They are more knowledgeable in investment that they think they are better at doing their own investment then letting the pro do it for them. You have never sell insurance before, you would be surprised to find that most potential customers are not as dumb as you think.


Depend on situation, when you are out of job, the next thing you would want is to be admitted to hospital or diagnosed with any dreaded diseases. If think another way round, if you are out of job, the next BEST thing to happen is you have a big insurance coverage and you're diagnosed with dreaded diseases.


Depending on their policies and mode of payment, and how long have they purchased the insurance plan. In some cases, policy holders no longer require to pay the annual premium for PARTICIPATING LIFE POLICIES after 20 yrs. The cash bonus accumulated is more than enough to cover the future premiums.

bbjslee,

I use to be a sales manager. I know how to do "bait and switch" too.

<<What about other incidents then?
- Medical expenses.>>

Medical insurance or Critical illness insurance.

<<- Lost of income due to dreaded diseases.>>

TPD coverage with dreaded disease

<<- Housing loan debt, debtor passed away.>>

MRTA or life insurance.


<<Did I advice forum readers to buy ALL the insurance >>

If that is not playing FUD and advising people to buy ALL the coverage, what is??

<<cover to the MAX?>>

Now, how much is ENOUGH?? 2 x Annual income?? 10 X annual income??

Oops!! I am sorry. You told us. Used up to 10% of your income to buy insurance. Regardless of whether you NEED it or not. Regardless of whether that will put you in a deep DEBT hole.

So, here we have IT. Insurance Agent is out to SELL you insurance. BUYER BEWARE!!!

Dreamer

---

Added on January 2, 2009, 6:42 ambbjslee,

Of course, since they had paid UPFRONT for 20 years, they should not have to pay ANYMORE. Those insurance premium is DEFINITELY more that the normal term life insurance.

<<The cash bonus accumulated is more than enough to cover the future premiums.>>

Ditto, if the person save those money from premium and invest, they would have A LOT MORE, Heh, they MAY NOT even NEED insurance anymore.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Jan 2 2009, 06:42 AM

Sometime, the cash bonus accumulated MAY NOT enough to cover the future premium due to elder age our insurance charge is HIGH compare to 20 years ago. (which we are 20 years younger )

However if the policyholder passed away in between these 20 years, then his/her nominee will get the Sum Assured + Cash Bonus left under Insurance Act. Do not need to wait for the Letter of Administration to release his asset/Saving.

A person save those premium MAY NOT guarantee to have HIGHER profit along the 20 years as the investment also having risk of loss. I don't think there is a finance company can guarantee sure gain along the years. (except those Low Risk Profile such as FD, ASN/ASW Fund).

The insurance just an risk divesting tool. 10% of gross income to save for Medical/Hospitalization and life plan is really practical in Malaysia as the hospitalization bill is killing now s a day. Of course you still can make a queue in General Hospital for your surgery. It is depends on your need but not necessary to have 10% to get a plan. Of course, a person who need a life insurance only buy la, don't simple subscribe plan without fact finding on your needs.

This post has been edited by transit: Jan 2 2009, 07:16 AM

transit,

<<A person save those premium MAY NOT guarantee to have HIGHER profit along the 20 years as the investment also having risk of loss. I don't think there is a finance company can guarantee sure gain along the years. (except those Low Risk Profile such as FD, ASN/ASW Fund).>>

How about FD?? We DID a comparison before and it turns out that if the person save the extra premium in FD, he/she still comes out ahead.

It is in the earlier pages of this thread.

How many times that I have to REPEAT this?? When you are OLD and RETIRED, you have NO INCOME from your works. So, why do you need LIFE INSURANCE to protect your income stream in case that you are DEATH??

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Jan 2 2009, 08:08 AM

this should not be an accuse,if a sales person have good moral value,he will tell his custumer the weakness of his product too,he can say in a proper way like engineering is a good choice for student who like maths,instead of straight saying 'your maths is too sucks,engineering is not for you.'

i agree now a lot custumer are smart,however,we as sales person can not assume all our custumer are smart so no need to teach them ,as insurance planning are part of financial planning too,we do need to make sure the insurance premium are not burden our custumer too.anyway,i think you will help your custumer to plan this too.

How much details can you explain in 1 hr? If I give you lecture of half an hr on certain insurance product, you'll fall asleep. How to keep the conversation going? INTERACTIVITY. How to have interactivity? ASK & ANSWER.
All the terms and conditions, what's covered, what's not covered are freely, publicly, easily available everywhere.
All you need to do is ASK.
Is it so hard for you to just ask the agents
- What is not covered?
- How to claim?
- If I have this this & this, can I claim?
. etc...
Don't blame the agent for not telling you EVERYTHING if you didn't ask him to. You are just not exercising your consumer rights. Even if I want to tell you everything without you asking any question, you would not be interested anymore after I only go through quarter of it.

I've been off topic here, it should be discussed in new thread such as "sales ethic". Not in this thread.

This post has been edited by bbjslee: Jan 2 2009, 10:21 PM

i wish i can agreed and follow your way.

but im too late. Way before im grad, my aunty (who is an insurance agent) asked me buy medical insurance which she claimed that the premium is fixed for life unlike the new medical insurance which premium is increasing according to the age.

tht was 2 years b4 im graduate, my aunty is paying for me, while she is expecting me pay her back when im start working.

after im grad, im paying the medical insurance premium for the current month n also paying my aunty back.

and now im in the 5th year of medical insurance, my aunty asked me to top up the sum insured, and it's increases my premium.

now my emergency fund is only can last for 1 month even after working for 3 years.

sometimes, when things introduced by aunty, i believe it's something good, but i got no time to do the research then just accept whatever proposed by aunty.

beside the medical insurance, i got also personal accident insurance, n saving plan with insurance which is going to mature 10years in few year coming.

Joint a/c is also frozen upon death.

DannyOP,

Come on. Do I have to tell you everything?? It will take a while to report someone is DEATH. Get the money out first!! In fact, if a spouse is in ANY serious danger of DEATH, get the money out first.

Do I have to spoon feed you everything??

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Jan 3 2009, 09:27 AM