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 ICAP, traded price higher than NAV

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cherroy
post Aug 27 2015, 01:54 PM

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QUOTE(myr.medinsurance @ Aug 27 2015, 10:18 AM)
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Shareholders should push for share buyback by ICAP at AGM. Current market price is 20 - 30% below NAV. If ICAP buyback shares and CANCELS units, that will increase NAV per unit of each share of those who still believe in fund manager while allowing those who have lost faith to get back money at a smaller discount to NAV.

However, this act will decrease total fund size (and thus manager fee). So, hard to ask turkeys to vote for Christmas. Fund manager won't do it unless forced to.

I think share buyback would be a good compromise between totally dissolving fund (killing the fund manager's golden goose) and just continue business as usual (forcing shareholders to hold shares at discount to NAV).

Anyway, dissolving the fund when market is down is the worst decision to make. Better to wait for recovery and look at his performance. If he underperforms KLCI, time to dissolve fund. Fund manager that cannot make the cut should not hold shareholders hostage.

Maybe a minority shareholder can raise this issue at AGM and see who around him supports him. If no response, then time to quietly sell out.

My 2 cents.
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The problem is market price is having significant discount to the NAV.
So if sell out needs to incur at least 20~30% discount to NAV.

One way to resolve the price mis-match can be through constant dividend distribution, as this market always like dividend play.
Dividend stocks are highly appreciated by the market, and share price generally being well supported well due to its yield, example, BAT, GAB etc.

After all, the fund does receive dividend from its holding, as well as cash portion that can generate FD interest, so just give those interest income + dividend received as reward/dividend back to shareholders, without need to touch on the original capital as well.
cherroy
post Aug 27 2015, 03:51 PM

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QUOTE(wil-i-am @ Aug 27 2015, 03:27 PM)
TTB won't use existing Cash to buyback shares
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I taught the fund objective is to buy undervalued stocks.

So Icap is not undervalued on current price?
cherroy
post Aug 28 2015, 07:58 AM

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QUOTE(myr.medinsurance @ Aug 28 2015, 12:30 AM)
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For those who invested from Day 1, at least you get your capital back + some profit. Can be a lot worse.
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For investor who invested from day 1, they are having good profit, as Icap did have magnificent gain from 2005 (the fund inception) to 2010.

But it cannot be said the same for investors invested after 2010.
cherroy
post Sep 20 2015, 09:34 PM

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QUOTE(gark @ Sep 20 2015, 07:05 PM)
As long not sold, the losses cannot be charged out...  whistling.gif  not only parkson, but tong herr also, he slowly selll and offset the losses.

Anyway interest received  can cover liao....
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The newer FRS accounting is more stricter, they don't allow paper loss forever not being charged.

As seen from the impairment note posted.

Impairment :
A decline in fair value below the original cost of the equity instrument that had persisted for more than 9 to 12 months would generally be considered as "prolonged" hence impaired.

cherroy
post Sep 21 2015, 01:22 AM

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QUOTE(myr.medinsurance @ Sep 21 2015, 12:55 AM)
Funny, everything is publicly listed, why the need to resort to impairment?

Why can't they operate like unit trust or etf where nav reflect latest market price.
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This is the difference between closed ended fund compared to those ordinary opened ended one.

Closed ended fund is depended on the market force to dictate the price, as there is no redemption taking place when investors want to divest time, by rely on open market buyer willingness to buy the share.

Impairment in the accounting is just wanting to reflect whatever situation as closed as the actual situation out there.
It is about accounting practice.


cherroy
post Sep 21 2015, 11:21 AM

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QUOTE(myr.medinsurance @ Sep 21 2015, 11:05 AM)
Does that mean that NAV provided weekly does not sync with asset and liability of fund due to how profit and loss is accounted for?

I would imagine that NAV = assets - liability

If the assets are based on historical price or what is considered fair price rather than latest market price, won't there be a divergence between NAV and what you would get if you liquidate all assets at market price and pay off all debt?

Why resort to this when everything is transparent on stock market unless you want to take the average market price of share over a a time period (e.g. a year)?
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NAV published is always the true or real time sync of the total fund worth.

Yes, that's what I posted before.
If the fund find nothing to invest, then an option is to liquidate the fund, then every shareholder get back at the value of NAV, which is about 20% or more higher than currency market price.

You invested into a fund because you view the fund manager is good that able to outperform the market, while the fund manager get a fee (generally 1~2% pa of the total fund NAV) from it, that's one of reason why investing into a fund.


cherroy
post Sep 21 2015, 09:15 PM

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QUOTE(gark @ Sep 21 2015, 06:06 PM)
Can see but cannot touch... not unless TTB.. retires..  yawn.gif
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You can touch if majority of the shareholders vote for liquidate the fund. tongue.gif


cherroy
post Sep 22 2015, 09:32 AM

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QUOTE(gark @ Sep 22 2015, 09:27 AM)
Many have tried and fail.. TTB.. have many macai to support him.  laugh.gif
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We can see in the early year, that the market share price was always at par or on a premium over the NAV which indicator many had good view on the fund.

But since lately few years, the market price lose its premium and selling at discount over 20% speaks the story of the "support".

Investors' aim are always simply, that is to make a gain in investment, not support whom.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Sep 22 2015, 09:32 AM
cherroy
post Sep 22 2015, 11:02 AM

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QUOTE
In response, the fund had said that a share buyback would destroy value for a close-end fund like icapital.biz. “Cash is raw material for icapital.biz. The more the shares repurchased, the lesser the capital or assets available for investments to generate capital appreciation which would lead to higher NAV growth,” said Tan Teng Boo, the designated person for icapital.biz.


Isn't the fund objective is to buy undervalued stock?

So if Icap share price is undervalued, shouldn't be the fund also interest to own it?

So Icap is not undervalued?

Share buyback doesn't mean must cancel it out one, they can remain in company as treasury shares, which if share price rise back up time, it can be sold or cash out as well.
Sell at a profit, NAV of the fund rise, shareholders joy.

So if Icap shares indeed undervalued, buyback can be a good form of investment as well.


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