Gutten morgan HJebat.
Elite? Thanks - just trying to add value & help fellow financial freedom seekers avoid stupidities i hit squarely on the head before 

Nah, i'm definitely not a secret admirer of Mr. TTB.
I admire the quiet, simple and value-adding life of the old Mr. WB and the likes, thus Mr. TTB's "style" is a bit "lebih" for me to admire 

I just aim to buy ICAP on the similar principle of "severe lelong" as some of my filtered stocks & unit trust/mutual funds 
Thus far, i'm making net about 11.97% if disposed now, bought end Dec 2011/early Jan2012, thanks to uncle (i'm sure he's either older or bloody more knowledgeable  ) Gark's postings and discussion on ICAP.
I'm just worried about the comparatively low daily volume averaging low-ish 60K+ (ignoring recent 0.61M+/- spike) if/when i want to dispose.. er.. not like i'm holding millions of units lar

I sense your post contain of flaming rather constructive comment in your post, may i ask are you TTB supporter?

Different people different way of approach, anyway is just a open forum for discussion, why so anger about a such problem?

Hi, kinwing,

The max shareholding per investor is 20%.
What if they are 3 separate investors with total collecting over 50% and they collaborate, will they  have controlling interest of the co?
If that happen, will  TTB/Capital Dynamics  have overruling power over them?
I m quite concern over this, as I don't wish ICAP to be control by other parties...

As far as I known, ICAP is a public company limited by shares and is incorporated under the Companies Act 1965 in Malaysia.

historically, this stock will trade at a premium when market is bull
and discount when market is bear.

IMHO, now maket is bull, still trade at discount. therefore, not a good time to touch this counter

Dividend does not give value?

But dividend is essential for me to buy foods, aka monthly vegetable money.  

I just want my investment give me, some like 2-3% dividend, to feed me, if not I am dieing in hunger. 

I am just small fella, non-known, irrelevant person, even if I want to set up fund, I have no ability, nor able to set up one.  

We just make suggestion to pay some peanut 2-3% to minority shareholders. 2-3% is not a big problem for the fund to give, as the fund is making a double digit return and has high level of cash as well. The fund is constantly receiving dividend from the invested portfolio stock as well. So those stocks give dividend also not give any value to the fund investing on them?
So all stocks in the market should not giving any dividend, because it is not give value as mentioned?

The 2-3% can make a lot of difference to minority shareholders like me, who is non-value investors, irrelevant person in the society, non-long term investors.
Because ordinary person like me only know that make money in the stock market is
1. Dividend from the profit generated by the company
2. Capital appreciation from the market price aka my buy and sell price.

Even if I own a stock that NAV is Rm5.00, which I bought at RM1.50. If market pricing doesn't go up for 10 years, still at Rm1.50 while NAV goes to Rm8.00. I do not yet make a profit, but worst to worst I need the money after 10 years, I need to sell at market price, I cannot sell at NAV. 

And the even worst part, some may privatise it at a price (for ordinary listed company, then end of story for my investment).

We make this suggestion because market pricing of the fund is not following value of the fund.
Or a consistent discount of fund NAV at 20% is a normal market pricing of a closed ended fund?

As much as I believe and supportive to the long term investing theory, and value investing, money is not with me forever, I will apart with money in decades to come. So if the value only realise after I parted with money, I cannot even see it, use it.

I am not those billionaire or multi-millionaires that can set aside a million of hundred of thousand and do not to touch at all. As small anchovies like me need money to survive as well as want to invest as well for long term. So dividend is key for my survival as well.

I speak for myself only as non-value, non-long term investors, small anchovies and irrelevant ordinary person.
Above has nothing to do it is right or wrong nor saying the fund is right or wrong not to give dividend, nor saying the fund is not good. 

I do not know when I need cash, I may need it at 14 years, I may need it after 15 years.
I do not have crystal ball to know when I need the cash.
As said, I am not multi-millionaires, I do not have luxury to know or ascertain my money will not be used for 15 years or not.

Ok, it is my fault in the beginning that I cannot make a commitment for 15 years investment. 

Is it a 100% sure thing about its liquidation in year 15?
I think Icap listed around end of 2005? So it's already 6.x year now?
So after another 9 year+, it will be 100% sure to be liquidated?

Huh, I taught said 15 years previously, now saying why not extend. 

I taught I need a 15 years crystal ball to buy (so that it is not my fault), now need beyond 15 years plus crystal ball? 

what is the use of money, of whatever value be it, like its value become1000x, if I am a dead man after 2 x 15 years? 

Let the kids inherit is not doing good for them. So no use for me.

I am more practical person, money to me, is just a tool to be used upon, or something that can generate something.
If money has no this 2 function, it is meaningless to me.
WB got a lot of wealth which he may not finish spending it, but the difference is, he can liquidate the wealth into cash whenever he wish to.

If one tells me to invest into something that can become 1000000x but cannot withdraw a single cent, and is not generating cashflow over decades long, sorry, kinda difficult for me to commit in it as I have no crystal ball to know what will happen in the future, or my future (when I need the money, when I become a dead man).

Ability to liquidate an investment is quite important to me, and also 2008 global crisis instill my mindset further.

I see........BUT NAV is useless to minor holder unless the fund liquidates.....

For an investor, i will only look at the present mkt value.

i have a fund of precious metals trading at approx 50% of NAV...... 

---

Added on August 23, 2012, 9:01 amBTW your prices at Oct 07 and Oct 08 are wrong..........BIG plunge during these times

http://www.capitaldynamics.com.sg/en/icgf_performance



http://www.capitaldynamics.com.au/node/33
The IC global/Int funds has not perform perse...BUT TTB is smart to compare with the Global INDICES and
they have done better RELATIVEly......  

That goes without saying that TRUST is a fundamental of investing in ANY entity.

IF you check out the OCT 07 prices, its much higher ate approx Rm2.40 average before the crash in 2008.....  

Since when I said I cannot get my money from ICAP or not. 
I was responding to below quoated post, aka talk of why not extend beyond 15 years, or may be potential 2 x 15 years. 
As I do not know I have 2 x 15 years or not. 

As suggested by above post, I should not invest if need the money without having to wait for 15 years, isn't suggest I shouldn't liquidate and get the money?
If gives dividend, yes there is no guarantee it will close the gap between market price and NAV, but it may close the gap, not the like 20+%.

BH is a company
BH traded in an efficient market, so pricing has no issue, liquidating at company worth generally has no issue instead market may trade at premium most of the time.
BH can buy a company, own a company, strip it or having a say on how company being run, realise the investment worth etc.

Icap is a closed ended fund,
and current market pricing is inefficient to reflect the true value, so minority shareholders even bought at discount, may has difficulty to liquidate at true fund worth.

Giving divs will close the gap since they are holding some cash.
Giving divs will reduce the NAV and cause the price and NAV to converge

It is called simulate investment portfolio (not stimulate investment portfolio). His simulate investment portfolio is to  buy stock on paper  as though it is  real investment. If u subscribe to his newspaper u will know the simulated counters he bought.

The only way to get the stocks he bought by his funds (ICAP, ICGF and ICIVF) are through buying of these funds and found in their Annual Reports accordingly.

For ICAP, I can share with u as at 22nd June 2011:-
Boustead bhd
F&N
Integrax
MSC
Padini
Parkson
Petronas Dagangan
PIE
Suria Capital
Tong Herr

I think TTB is lucky to have launched ICAP just before the bull run in 2005. Whether he can replicate the success going forward is unknown. Talking about historical performance, cumulative growth of 18% in 7 years is very different from 30 years. My bet is that he has only a very slim chance to do it. He isn't doing very well in his international funds the last I looked.

So basically, you'll buy even when the market price is above your average buy price?

Base on your screen shot, let's say you buy 1 lot at RM0.70 in 2010. Hold it for 5 years. Then buy 1 more lot at RM1.60 in 2015. Now your average buy price is RM1.15. You'll keep buying as long as the NAV is below market price, even though by doing that you'll increase your average buy price? Tiok boh?

Not flame war la, it's flames of war - a miniature wargame acah-acah you only la...if not I'll type war of flames

i swear this ad homnein person was on IGNORe.

Ok lets discuss.........nicely..othewise

METAL TRADing?    ITS a PM MINER/Exploration investment company similar to ICAP....
Both NAV are revelant because it could also liquidate. For miners, theres also the VERY BIG opportunity
in TAKEOVERS.....prices are unlocked in takeovers....     
Can we say the same for ICAP?

33% CASH sounds like ROE will be pretty bad.
Plus 33% cash at this stage of the life of this fund is irrelevant as far as liquidating is concerned or 'are you contradicting yerself form before like in 15 years time or so? 

firee has already asnwered ...its NAV not share price, thanks.
On my.......my PM miner stocks went from $3 in 2009 to $40 last year............   
AND that is but ONE of a few like so ........   

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=SLW+Int...urce=undefined;

er.. i forget what screen shot i uploaded, other than a simple illustration of NAV and discounted 30% market price, getting old & foggy leh

Anyhow, yeah, i'd buy more EVEN if it increases my average buying price, as long as i buy at a high enough discount to be of value to me. Yeah yeah - some fellows' Entry methodology is buy when NAV or price is lower than average NAV held. To that, i throw in a wrench to screw things up - if the NAV or price NEVER goes low enough for 20 years leh. How?

Note - please factor in inflation and value of $ for realism of whether NAV or price will go low enough to be LOWER than one's average cost/price, ESPECIALLY if one has already been through 1 or 2 major down turn buys (ie. one's averaged price/cost is so low, how lar for the market price or NAV to be lower, thus never buy again for 20 to 30 years?)

No right/wrong - just my thinking a bit more serong than straight-line "buy only to lower OR when price is lower than, my average cost/price" 

Er.. i'd buy ICAP or any good stocks/mutual fund/REITs/etc. on such basis, not just ICAP