Literally got shocked last night when I was using the shower. Mine is a steel shower set type. Got zapped when I touched it!

Tested with one of those electricity meters, definitely got current. WTF. Anybody else had this problem before? I've got a Joven water heater installed above the ceiling. Is it caused by the heater or something else? Don't know if it's related or not but a few days ago switching on another water heater keep tripping the whole house (also the same model JH25).


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high rise or landed?

Well, condo but mine's only 6 floors, I'm on the ground floor.

I believe is landed with central water heater.

Personally I'll suggest TS to change into wall type for each toilet.

this means got some leak in your wiring....

ELCB test button ok?

Errr, mine got no ELCB button like those wall mounted type.

You are fortunate that you are still alive. Go get licensed wiremen to check the wiring & compliance to ST guide for the water heater installation.

There is a leak in your wiring.

Hopefully you have had a 10mA dedicated RCCB with its dedicated wiring installed for the water heater only, as it is crucial in saving lives.

ELCB from your heater will not detect leakage OUTSIDE the WH so the RCCB is important.

Thanks for the input, have first asked the Joven technician to come take a look. Then will ask an electrician to double check. Got a phobia now touching anything metal that's connected to an electrical connection.

Sorry, a bit of a noob re: electrical stuff, what's this ST guide you mentioned?

Thanks for the input! Will definitely look into this. Found a thread that seems to be talking about what you're suggesting..

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=4938749&st=

There's a latest guideline from ST
https://www.st.gov.my/en/contents/files/dow...N_DOMESTIK1.pdf

https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/elder...-heater-1841166

You are lucky didn't get electrocuted to death. This news article of a case in Singapore has some technical explanations of how it can happen.

Thanks for the link. Yes, lucky indeed.. read the article, although slightly different from my case, but the thing to take note is this:

Ok guys, really thanks for all the input, just wanted to update for everybody's future reference because this was scary AF. So this is what actually happened.

Got the Joven technician to come over and check, turns out it is the heater element that was spoilt. But usually if this happens, turning on the water heater would have tripped the current box. However it did not, instead the current was running through the copper piping then into the steel shower head. F*ck.

So, got heater element fixed and then got my electrician to come take a look to find out why it didn't trip as it should have. Turns out the ground wire for the water heater was not connected to anything! This one is probably due to my previous crappy contractor who did my reno who also installed the water heaters. Was a vomit blood experience but that's another story.

What the electrician did then was to connect the ground wire from my nearby air ventilator to the water heater's ground wire so in future should trip if anything goes wrong. He says should be safe enough. But can also do further precaution by installing RCBO for the water heater at the current box.

Sorry if I have wrongly described anything as my electrical knowledge is nil. Anyways I'm considering getting these RCBO models, all got various prices... any advice?

https://shopee.com.my/%F0%9F%86%9ACHINT-NXB...77-d1d65bb4a703

https://shopee.com.my/MAXGUARD-20A-32A-2P-1...b3-07b2a2953144

This one is the cheapest, but... is it any good?
https://shopee.com.my/CNC-YCB9NL-40-230V-RC...fb-5b0e8b96535e

If going for RCBO get the Schneider one - around RM130. Better still if your DB box has sufficient space, get RCCB 10mA from ABB or Hager, its around RM150 for ABB and RM190 for Hager. If using RCCB, you still need a MCB.
Don't cheap out on breakers and RCDs.

Only the middle one, Maxguard, is the correct specifications for a water heater at a sensitivity of 10 mA or 0.01 A

i think the shower head and hose cant use metal one ...

need change to plastic/rubber

Fully agreed, all water heater must install along with RCCB or RCBO, this is to add second protection measure, if the first protection failed like TS said, then second protection will save your life. a good quality RCCB with installation just cost less than RM500, your life is definitely worth more than RM500.

Ok, thanks! Will look into the Schneider ones... sorry noob question, not sure if I have a MCB? This is my DB box currently...



This post has been edited by subaiku: Jul 20 2022, 10:47 AM

Ah thanks! What do you think about this brand? Recommended by the electrician...

JOVEx again haha. BTW, I dont believe any build in electronics ELCB.
Only 2 brands I found is using Electro-Magnetic. ELCB.

YET to me is not enough and by the rules regardless whether the unit comes with built in, they must have an exter RCCB, RCB, RCBO 10mA.

And probably 99.99% user ignore

Sorry, never used before. There's something you must realise which unfortunately is this: Contractors don't recommend something based on your best interest. They recommend something because it is easy to purchase, or that is what they have in stock, or it has a large profit margin, etc.

You also cannot trust something simply because it has a SIRIM sticker. You must get something that has a SIRIM sticker that has passed electrical specifications. A company could very well get a SIRIM sticker on the claimed weight of the item.

That being said, if funds are limited, then go for Maxguard, EPS or Himel branded RCBO with these specs : 20 A overcurrent, 10 mA trip. All have SIRIM and are JKR approved*, meaning they have at least been electrically tested by someone independently. If you go for an RCCB instead of RCBO, then get 25 A, 10 mA trip. The 25A is because there will be an additional MCB for the water heater. NOTE: these specs are if your WH is below, say, 4500 W, which it probably is. Please review if the WH happens to be above this wattage.

I can tell you that the store "Combi Electric" online delivers very fast, and price is fair. Now, saying that "Contractors don't recommend something based on your best interest" why should you trust me? I have absolutely no connection to the store just stated, I am not making money off you, and I am only recommending this based on your safety, because I can't get anything else from you!

Disclaimer: * last time I checked

Just to clarify, you are using a storage water heater correct? Not an instant water heater.

If it is a storage water heater, then FYI storage water heaters do not have a built-in circuit breaker like instant water heaters. So they have to rely on the DB box circuit breaker. BUT if your storage water heater is not grounded / no earth connection, no matter how good quality your circuit breaker is, the circuit breaker will not trip when there is a current leakage, and u will be electrocuted.

Hence why SIRIM / Suruhanjaya Tenaga now set a new guideline for storage water heaters to come with Isolation Barriers placed at both the storage water heaters' inlet and outlet water connection. Most SIRIM certified storage water heater brands already complied to this guideline, and some brands even took the extra safety effort to pre-install the isolation barriers on the heater, such as CENTON, which is extra good, considering some inexperienced installers will missed out installing the Isolation Barriers if they are not pre-installed on the heater out-of-the-box.

Isolation Barriers are simple devices that elongate any current flow from the storage water heater to users, so any current flow (if there is) will barely reach the users. So in your case where there is an unfortunate current leakage because of the lack of earthing, if your storage water heater is pre-installed with Isolation Barriers, the Isolation Barriers will protect u from electrocution to a certain extend. But every device has a lifespan as well, so u will probably be protected until the lifespan of the Isolation Barriers ended. So don't just rely on the Isolation Barriers to protect u. Installation and earthing connection has to be correct in the first place.

Basically just a safety tip for u, if your storage water heater do not have Isolation Barriers pre-installed, u are advised to install them.

This is the reason a 10 mA RCCB/RCBO is specified for water heaters, either instant or storage, whether your heater is Grounded/Earthed or not. You become the Ground/Earth point, and the RCCB/RCBO trips before a fatal current electrocutes you.
As for this, you should absolutely also use isolation barriers (basically, a section of non-conductive pipe to break the path of the hot water copper pipe), or use PP-R or PB pipes for hot water.

ElectroBOOM shows the effects of even a small gap of water on electrical conductivity on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcrY59nGxBg&t=93s

"Contractors don't recommend something based on your best interest." Wise words.

Ok, thanks for the recommendations! Found these, these are the right ones right, as long as you get the 20A, 10ma versions? They all don't seem to have the earth fault indicator though which I read is important. Worth getting one with that in your opinion?
https://shopee.com.my/MAXGUARD-20A-2P10MA-T...9b-d362c89e75bc

https://shopee.com.my/Himel-HDB9PLEN40C-RCB...98-32ff6290e643

https://shopee.com.my/EPS-20A-25A-2P-10mA-6...fe-bfcd8624b2e9

Also, curious, how do you find out a product is JKR approved?

Yes, it's a storage water heater, the type that's installed up in the ceiling. Joven, model JH25.

Thanks for the tip about Isolation Barriers! So yeah, quite freaked about this whole affair. Went up and took a look, definitely no isolation barriers, copper piping all the way... second pic shows it going into concrete and connecting to my steel shower. And these were installed only 4 years ago.

All those C20, C32, etc are MCBs.
Your DB box is using Hager components, better for you to buy Hager RCCBs as they will fit perfectly when you cover the enclosure. The enclosure tolerance is tight, if use other brands may not be able to close back, may need to trim the window on the enclosure cover if want to use cheaper brands. Take note that I am not talking about the outer cover, I'm talking about the cover where the stickers (main switch, danger, etc) are on.
On another note, your DB box should not be having those C32 MCBs unless there are ring circuits in your house (which is very unlikely). Check what those MCBs are for and replace them with more appropriately sized MCBs.
You must also change your main RCCB which is using 300mA sensitivity to 30mA (0.03A). 300mA house burn down also RCD will not trip.

This post has been edited by gobiomani: Jul 21 2022, 10:45 AM

"JOVEx again haha."

Why? You had similar experience with Joven? Actually I had two Joven water heaters spoilt within a week of each other, this one and the other one suddenly trip the whole house when I tried to switch it on. Both were because of the heater element. Both also just reached 4 years old. Makes me wonder what kind of quality the WH are and here I thought Joven was a reputable brand.

Yours is the water heater tank types, not the regular one.

You have current on the tap head - possible causes is you have some wiring work done and neutral and earth wiring got connected wrongly or wiring have issues. Better get a technician to check it ASAP.

Edit : Saw TS found the root cause at post #15. I replied immediately because of the severity of the issue. Glad that you found it.

This post has been edited by AbbyCom: Jul 21 2022, 11:09 AM

Water heater safety guides from the electrical and electronics association of Malaysia

https://www.st.gov.my/en/contents/presentat...-%20Updated.pdf

Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but I have to point out...
ST = Suruhanjaya Tenaga = Energy Commission = can make rules that must be followed
electrical and electronics association of Malaysia = guidelines, no legal standing

Is not whether can or cannot. Its mandatory under the Electricity Regulations 1994 to have 10mA RCD fitted for wet floor appliances.

1. You trust your life insurance to cheapo china brand?
2. Want to do, do properly. ABB or Hager 10mA RCD.

Also like mentioned above, the 3 phase 0.3A = 300mA RCD is useless and against the law, cos of it all your 13A sockets are illegal and unprotected.
You need to change to 30mA (0.03A) RCD. This will cost the good part of RM300-ish for the barang alone.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Jul 22 2022, 12:54 AM

Hey thanks for all the tips! Did not notice that about my RCCB if you hadn't mentioned it! Will get my electrician to look into those C32 MCBs that you mentioned.

Heheh... thanks for the concern.

Sorry lah boss, didn't know better then . Learning by every new post. Didn't notice my RCCB was 300mA also, had thought it was 0.3A until gobiomani mentioned it.

Appreciate the input.

This post has been edited by subaiku: Jul 28 2022, 07:58 AM

looking at how TS's electrician installed the water heater and the errors with the DB box.... I'm wondering how many other houses out there are done the same way by the same guy with the same mistake as well? basically all ticking time bomb.....

This post has been edited by ZeneticX: Jul 27 2022, 02:01 AM

This kind of thing is unfortunately very common in Malaysia. Most so called electricians in Malaysia don't know what they are doing or want to get it done with minimum work for them. The attitude of most Malaysians where they are not willing to pay for good quality and knowledgeable electrician is also a very big contributing factor to such poor quality work.

Nice thread.. I've learned a lot from you guys... tq and stay safe

An overwhelming majority - sad to say.

Yeah man, basically the contractor who did my place up was a nightmare to work with (but that's another story altogether). Using subpar subcontractors all the way, really should blacklist the f*cker.

If you google "water heater electrocution" the results will really freak you out.

Hey Selene, would you know of anybody who does the instalation of isolation barriers? Is it something any plumber can do? Tried google but not many results, they look something like this yeah?

Hey gobiomani, I've got another question, if my RCCB is 63A 300mA, is it neccesary to get the same 63A? As in a 63A 30mA RCCB?

To answer your question, yes you must get a 63A sustained rated to replace a 63A existing component.
Don't cheap out to get a 40A sustained rated part.

300mA tripping threshold is elcheapo protection for fire only.
Human already die when >50mA pass thru human body.
300mA tripping threshold is 6 times con-con-con-con-con-confirm die.
Or, rather, closing barn door after the horse left.

I put nothing more than 30mA tolerance RCDs for the places I can control.
Because that's the way. In SG and AU all use 30mA for domestic. In MY life is cheap.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Aug 4 2022, 08:43 AM

you can just buy from shopee, then ask plumber to install

Yes, must use back the same as sifu ceo684 said. I also learn so many things from her.

where to find licensed wiremen? is there a directory or something?

https://ecos.st.gov.my/senarai-orang-kompet...aftar-elektrik-

You can search at the ST data base.

Better get plumbers who know how to install storage water heaters to do it for u. At the inlet, u will need to connect it to the pressure relief valve too (water source piping > pressure relief valve > isolation barrier > storage water heater's inlet).

Yes it looks like the one in your picture, but better purchase from the storage water heater's brand distributor so that u get more assurance that it is a confirm fit.

Ok, thanks for that! Willdo!

Yes, thank you sifu! Re: 63A, just wanted to make sure since when I went to the shop, sale staff asked me and I also didn't know how to answer.

Which actually leads me to my next problem... when I was going to all the shops to source for the RCCBs and RCBOs nearly every shop staff gave me a funny look when I asked for 30mA tolerance RCCBs. They said it's too sensitive and will trip often and they recommended 100mA instead. (I know, I know, it's the law and 30mA is what all you guys have been recommending, and yes, 100mA still will con-con-con-con-confirm die )

So question for all those of you that actually have 30mA installed, does it actually trip easily? My worry is that I'm out of my condo for long periods of time often, if trip then things like the fridge might be a problem (with all the food rotting and all).

I used the same unfortunately those jobs seem to be subbed out to others, where sometimes I don't feel confident when they answered something incorrectly.

Well, same issue I faced..

They insisted water heater uses 30mA and when I said ST rule since 1994 is also there already he looked at me and insisted "no such thing ever!"

If you still worry of easily trip (despite the good brands like ABB, Hager won't unless it is a life-threatening leak) then you can continue with 100mA for your lighting and fan, since human are usually not exposed to it. Keep the 30mA maximum for your plug points, and 10mA for water heater.

Bear in mind, you should in fact ensure your steel roof/steel-type awnings are grounded as well (a green wire to connect to your DB busbar directly) for safety - otherwise ((when there is a leak) anyone who climbs the roof to fix/repair something might get electrocuted to death since your lighting/fan RCCB sensitivity is only at 100mA. This also ST requirement actually.
It would be a miracle if people who install awning at his house would get an electrician to help pull a green wire connect to your earth busbar, whilst the awning are fitted with wired lamps/fans.

If you want to prevent getting unregistered person to install , the least risky way if to ask the water heater retailer to recommend their electricians in their contact.

I think the outcome is probably same in most cases - this is a known trend in Malaysia even by many main cons who do house renovation would tell the same that most of them on "shared" licenses.

This allows some of the licensed and good ones charging at superb high price, which might be ok from safety point of view but they are usually reluctant in taking a one-off job - they are more interested in big project like 50k for whole house wiring.

It is true to certain extend on the license sharing. Usually they will target higher value task over smaller value task ( opportunity cost). Only the friendly electrical contractors can help you on this matter.

It doesn't trip often if you buy a genuine ABB or Hager 30mA, current models.
Yes 30 years back models even 300mA also trip every other rain lah. The technology then and now improved a lot.

Nah I show you lah, I moved to SG and left my apartment fridge running.
Its protected with whole house 30mA, ABB.


100mA for lights and fans?
You still use flourescent tube or halogen high-bay lamps at home??
seriously, 100mA?

Buy a good branded (read: ABB or Hager) 30mA whole house je lah. Dont waste money buying 100mA.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Aug 11 2022, 10:09 PM

30mA RCCB should be the one to go for in replacing the 100mA, in fact I agree it should be for today's standard.
What I meant was the minimum is then to follow ST guideline, as last resort.

I think government had probably not enforcing this in the guideline because factoring the implementations nationwide would be a hassle due to lack of control and complexity but as user, we don't depend on government to protect ourselves.

Are you saying ST lowest RCCB sensitivity for lights and fans is 100 mA, or are you saying ST requires metal awnings and metal roofs to be electrically grounded? The former is true, but I have never read the latter. Could you please cite a source if you mean the latter?

Here you go mate

https://www.st.gov.my/en/contents/files/dow...N_DOMESTIK1.pdf



This post has been edited by davidlow7: Aug 12 2022, 10:20 PM

Thanks! Most appreciated!

Looks like ST has finally published an updated guidebook (Dated 1st December 2021) covering a lot more information. Lampiran III and V are particularly important (Pages 59 and 61) as it covers the current carrying capacity of wires, and is way more conservative than any manufacturer tables. From the ST table, 2.5 mm² cables no longer are a 20 A MCB circuit....

Yes but I think the issue we have in Malaysia is enforcement... You can see many electrical shops also selling DB box with 300mA rccb for domestic use. Wiremen taking contracts are mostly non-licensed whilst licensed ones simply charge with no control.

My house wireman luckily is really a knowledgeable person when I asked him to get ready earth wire connected to busbar for my future awning - he said "Singapore standard is like that" - by Singapore standard it does not mean just the guideline but also the enforcement!

Wah... the awning thing, I don’t have that since I live in a condo but my parent’s house has one. Another thing to look into. Thanks!

Thanks for that sifu! 🙏🏻 really gives me peace of mind! Ok, going ahead with Hager 63A, 30mA RCCB. 😊

Heheh, mind sharing your wireman’s contact? I think anybody who reads through this thread will want his contact after this. 😁

I don't have his contact, but only my main con's contact so you might not be getting the 1st hand price.... I am also waiting for the chance to get his

Hahaaaa... ok, ok.. share when you do. Thanks!

Hey Selene, taking a look at my water heater outlets, the cold outlets seem to have a plastic/rubber barriers already, so I don't need to install them there right? Just the ones with the copper tubing?

joven storage heater installation sample

https://images.app.goo.gl/h6zCNif8q7vJGr8b8

https://joven-electric.com/my/product/stora...my/jsh-my/jsh35

This post has been edited by maxguy: Aug 18 2022, 12:55 PM

Thanks! Yup, I've seen those. But shop people says apparently the old model is prone to leaking.

This is the new model:
https://shopee.com.my/Joven-Isolation-Barri...3c-24c5996ca5f9

Still don't know why they cost so much for a plastic item.

Suruhanjaya Tenaga recommends Isolation Barriers to be installed at both inlet and outlet. It is always better to be safe than sorry.

Ok, thanks!