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 Got an electric shock from steel shower head!

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TSsubaiku
post Jun 30 2022, 04:10 PM, updated 4y ago

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Literally got shocked last night when I was using the shower. Mine is a steel shower set type. Got zapped when I touched it!

Tested with one of those electricity meters, definitely got current. WTF. Anybody else had this problem before? I've got a Joven water heater installed above the ceiling. Is it caused by the heater or something else? Don't know if it's related or not but a few days ago switching on another water heater keep tripping the whole house (also the same model JH25).


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TSsubaiku
post Jun 30 2022, 04:15 PM

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QUOTE(H3artBreakKid @ Jun 30 2022, 04:13 PM)
high rise or landed?
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Well, condo but mine's only 6 floors, I'm on the ground floor.
TSsubaiku
post Jun 30 2022, 04:52 PM

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QUOTE(jessicakoh @ Jun 30 2022, 04:31 PM)
ELCB test button ok?
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Errr, mine got no ELCB button like those wall mounted type.

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TSsubaiku
post Jul 4 2022, 05:34 PM

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QUOTE(nihility @ Jul 2 2022, 08:11 PM)
You are fortunate that you are still alive. Go get licensed wiremen to check the wiring & compliance to ST guide for the water heater installation.
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Thanks for the input, have first asked the Joven technician to come take a look. Then will ask an electrician to double check. Got a phobia now touching anything metal that's connected to an electrical connection. sad.gif

Sorry, a bit of a noob re: electrical stuff, what's this ST guide you mentioned?
TSsubaiku
post Jul 4 2022, 05:35 PM

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QUOTE(davidlow7 @ Jul 4 2022, 10:17 AM)
There is a leak in your wiring.

Hopefully you have had a 10mA dedicated RCCB with its dedicated wiring installed for the water heater only, as it is crucial in saving lives.

ELCB from your heater will not detect leakage OUTSIDE the WH so the RCCB is important.
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Thanks for the input! Will definitely look into this. Found a thread that seems to be talking about what you're suggesting..

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=4938749&st=
TSsubaiku
post Jul 18 2022, 04:15 PM

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QUOTE(rjmsfire @ Jul 16 2022, 10:13 PM)
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/elder...-heater-1841166

You are lucky didn't get electrocuted to death. This news article of a case in Singapore has some technical explanations of how it can happen.
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Thanks for the link. Yes, lucky indeed.. read the article, although slightly different from my case, but the thing to take note is this:

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TSsubaiku
post Jul 18 2022, 04:43 PM

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Ok guys, really thanks for all the input, just wanted to update for everybody's future reference because this was scary AF. So this is what actually happened.

Got the Joven technician to come over and check, turns out it is the heater element that was spoilt. But usually if this happens, turning on the water heater would have tripped the current box. However it did not, instead the current was running through the copper piping then into the steel shower head. F*ck.

So, got heater element fixed and then got my electrician to come take a look to find out why it didn't trip as it should have. Turns out the ground wire for the water heater was not connected to anything! shocking.gif This one is probably due to my previous crappy contractor who did my reno who also installed the water heaters. Was a vomit blood experience but that's another story.

What the electrician did then was to connect the ground wire from my nearby air ventilator to the water heater's ground wire so in future should trip if anything goes wrong. He says should be safe enough. But can also do further precaution by installing RCBO for the water heater at the current box.

Sorry if I have wrongly described anything as my electrical knowledge is nil. Anyways I'm considering getting these RCBO models, all got various prices... any advice?

https://shopee.com.my/%F0%9F%86%9ACHINT-NXB...77-d1d65bb4a703

https://shopee.com.my/MAXGUARD-20A-32A-2P-1...b3-07b2a2953144

This one is the cheapest, but... is it any good? sweat.gif
https://shopee.com.my/CNC-YCB9NL-40-230V-RC...fb-5b0e8b96535e
TSsubaiku
post Jul 20 2022, 10:47 AM

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QUOTE(gobiomani @ Jul 19 2022, 12:21 PM)
If going for RCBO get the Schneider one - around RM130. Better still if your DB box has sufficient space, get RCCB 10mA from ABB or Hager, its around RM150 for ABB and RM190 for Hager. If using RCCB, you still need a MCB.
Don't cheap out on breakers and RCDs.
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Ok, thanks! Will look into the Schneider ones... sorry noob question, not sure if I have a MCB? This is my DB box currently...

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This post has been edited by subaiku: Jul 20 2022, 10:47 AM
TSsubaiku
post Jul 20 2022, 10:49 AM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Jul 19 2022, 02:17 PM)
Only the middle one, Maxguard, is the correct specifications for a water heater at a sensitivity of 10 mA or 0.01 A
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Ah thanks! What do you think about this brand? Recommended by the electrician...

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TSsubaiku
post Jul 21 2022, 10:18 AM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Jul 20 2022, 01:36 PM)
Sorry, never used before. There's something you must realise which unfortunately is this: Contractors don't recommend something based on your best interest. They recommend something because it is easy to purchase, or that is what they have in stock, or it has a large profit margin, etc.

You also cannot trust something simply because it has a SIRIM sticker. You must get something that has a SIRIM sticker that has passed electrical specifications. A company could very well get a SIRIM sticker on the claimed weight of the item.

That being said, if funds are limited, then go for Maxguard, EPS or Himel branded RCBO with these specs : 20 A overcurrent, 10 mA trip. All have SIRIM and are JKR approved*, meaning they have at least been electrically tested by someone independently. If you go for an RCCB instead of RCBO, then get 25 A, 10 mA trip. The 25A is because there will be an additional MCB for the water heater. NOTE: these specs are if your WH is below, say, 4500 W, which it probably is. Please review if the WH happens to be above this wattage.

I can tell you that the store "Combi Electric" online delivers very fast, and price is fair. Now, saying that "Contractors don't recommend something based on your best interest" why should you trust me? I have absolutely no connection to the store just stated, I am not making money off you, and I am only recommending this based on your safety, because I can't get anything else from you!

Disclaimer: * last time I checked
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"Contractors don't recommend something based on your best interest." Wise words. tongue.gif

Ok, thanks for the recommendations! Found these, these are the right ones right, as long as you get the 20A, 10ma versions? They all don't seem to have the earth fault indicator though which I read is important. Worth getting one with that in your opinion?
https://shopee.com.my/MAXGUARD-20A-2P10MA-T...9b-d362c89e75bc

https://shopee.com.my/Himel-HDB9PLEN40C-RCB...98-32ff6290e643

https://shopee.com.my/EPS-20A-25A-2P-10mA-6...fe-bfcd8624b2e9

Also, curious, how do you find out a product is JKR approved?
TSsubaiku
post Jul 21 2022, 10:38 AM

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QUOTE(Selene Yeo @ Jul 20 2022, 04:36 PM)
Just to clarify, you are using a storage water heater correct? Not an instant water heater.

If it is a storage water heater, then FYI storage water heaters do not have a built-in circuit breaker like instant water heaters. So they have to rely on the DB box circuit breaker. BUT if your storage water heater is not grounded / no earth connection, no matter how good quality your circuit breaker is, the circuit breaker will not trip when there is a current leakage, and u will be electrocuted.

Hence why SIRIM / Suruhanjaya Tenaga now set a new guideline for storage water heaters to come with Isolation Barriers placed at both the storage water heaters' inlet and outlet water connection. Most SIRIM certified storage water heater brands already complied to this guideline, and some brands even took the extra safety effort to pre-install the isolation barriers on the heater, such as CENTON, which is extra good, considering some inexperienced installers will missed out installing the Isolation Barriers if they are not pre-installed on the heater out-of-the-box.

Isolation Barriers are simple devices that elongate any current flow from the storage water heater to users, so any current flow (if there is) will barely reach the users. So in your case where there is an unfortunate current leakage because of the lack of earthing, if your storage water heater is pre-installed with Isolation Barriers, the Isolation Barriers will protect u from electrocution to a certain extend. But every device has a lifespan as well, so u will probably be protected until the lifespan of the Isolation Barriers ended. So don't just rely on the Isolation Barriers to protect u. Installation and earthing connection has to be correct in the first place.

Basically just a safety tip for u, if your storage water heater do not have Isolation Barriers pre-installed, u are advised to install them.
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Yes, it's a storage water heater, the type that's installed up in the ceiling. Joven, model JH25.

Thanks for the tip about Isolation Barriers! So yeah, quite freaked about this whole affair. Went up and took a look, definitely no isolation barriers, copper piping all the way... second pic shows it going into concrete and connecting to my steel shower. And these were installed only 4 years ago. shocking.gif

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TSsubaiku
post Jul 21 2022, 10:45 AM

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QUOTE(candidman78 @ Jul 20 2022, 10:52 AM)
JOVEx again haha. BTW, I dont believe any build in electronics ELCB.
Only 2 brands I found is using Electro-Magnetic. ELCB.

YET to me is not enough and by the rules regardless whether the unit comes with built in, they must have an exter RCCB, RCB, RCBO 10mA.

And probably 99.99% user ignore
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"JOVEx again haha."

Why? You had similar experience with Joven? Actually I had two Joven water heaters spoilt within a week of each other, this one and the other one suddenly trip the whole house when I tried to switch it on. Both were because of the heater element. Both also just reached 4 years old. Makes me wonder what kind of quality the WH are and here I thought Joven was a reputable brand. dry.gif
TSsubaiku
post Jul 26 2022, 10:24 PM

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QUOTE(gobiomani @ Jul 21 2022, 10:41 AM)
All those C20, C32, etc are MCBs.
Your DB box is using Hager components, better for you to buy Hager RCCBs as they will fit perfectly when you cover the enclosure. The enclosure tolerance is tight, if use other brands may not be able to close back, may need to trim the window on the enclosure cover if want to use cheaper brands. Take note that I am not talking about the outer cover, I'm talking about the cover where the stickers (main switch, danger, etc) are on.
On another note, your DB box should not be having those C32 MCBs unless there are ring circuits in your house (which is very unlikely). Check what those MCBs are for and replace them with more appropriately sized MCBs.
You must also change your main RCCB which is using 300mA sensitivity to 30mA (0.03A). 300mA house burn down also RCD will not trip.
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Hey thanks for all the tips! Did not notice that about my RCCB if you hadn't mentioned it! Will get my electrician to look into those C32 MCBs that you mentioned.
TSsubaiku
post Jul 26 2022, 10:27 PM

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QUOTE(AbbyCom @ Jul 21 2022, 10:59 AM)
Yours is the water heater tank types, not the regular one.

You have current on the tap head - possible causes is you have some wiring work done and neutral and earth wiring got connected wrongly or wiring have issues. Better get a technician to check it ASAP.

Edit : Saw TS found the root cause at post #15. I replied immediately because of the severity of the issue. Glad that you found it.
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Heheh... thanks for the concern. smile.gif
TSsubaiku
post Jul 26 2022, 10:52 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Jul 22 2022, 12:50 AM)
Is not whether can or cannot. Its mandatory under the Electricity Regulations 1994 to have 10mA RCD fitted for wet floor appliances.

1. You trust your life insurance to cheapo china brand?  mega_shok.gif
2. Want to do, do properly. ABB or Hager 10mA RCD.

Also like mentioned above, the 3 phase 0.3A = 300mA RCD is useless and against the law, cos of it all your 13A sockets are illegal and unprotected.
You need to change to 30mA (0.03A) RCD. This will cost the good part of RM300-ish for the barang alone.
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Sorry lah boss, didn't know better then tongue.gif . Learning by every new post. Didn't notice my RCCB was 300mA also, had thought it was 0.3A until gobiomani mentioned it.

Appreciate the input. smile.gif

This post has been edited by subaiku: Jul 28 2022, 07:58 AM
TSsubaiku
post Aug 3 2022, 05:28 PM

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QUOTE(ZeneticX @ Jul 27 2022, 02:00 AM)
looking at how TS's electrician installed the water heater and the errors with the DB box.... I'm wondering how many other houses out there are done the same way by the same guy with the same mistake as well? basically all ticking time bomb.....
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Yeah man, basically the contractor who did my place up was a nightmare to work with (but that's another story altogether). Using subpar subcontractors all the way, really should blacklist the f*cker. vmad.gif
TSsubaiku
post Aug 3 2022, 05:32 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Jul 28 2022, 08:37 AM)
An overwhelming majority - sad to say.
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If you google "water heater electrocution" the results will really freak you out. sad.gif
TSsubaiku
post Aug 3 2022, 06:14 PM

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QUOTE(Selene Yeo @ Jul 20 2022, 04:36 PM)
Just to clarify, you are using a storage water heater correct? Not an instant water heater.

If it is a storage water heater, then FYI storage water heaters do not have a built-in circuit breaker like instant water heaters. So they have to rely on the DB box circuit breaker. BUT if your storage water heater is not grounded / no earth connection, no matter how good quality your circuit breaker is, the circuit breaker will not trip when there is a current leakage, and u will be electrocuted.

Hence why SIRIM / Suruhanjaya Tenaga now set a new guideline for storage water heaters to come with Isolation Barriers placed at both the storage water heaters' inlet and outlet water connection. Most SIRIM certified storage water heater brands already complied to this guideline, and some brands even took the extra safety effort to pre-install the isolation barriers on the heater, such as CENTON, which is extra good, considering some inexperienced installers will missed out installing the Isolation Barriers if they are not pre-installed on the heater out-of-the-box.

Isolation Barriers are simple devices that elongate any current flow from the storage water heater to users, so any current flow (if there is) will barely reach the users. So in your case where there is an unfortunate current leakage because of the lack of earthing, if your storage water heater is pre-installed with Isolation Barriers, the Isolation Barriers will protect u from electrocution to a certain extend. But every device has a lifespan as well, so u will probably be protected until the lifespan of the Isolation Barriers ended. So don't just rely on the Isolation Barriers to protect u. Installation and earthing connection has to be correct in the first place.

Basically just a safety tip for u, if your storage water heater do not have Isolation Barriers pre-installed, u are advised to install them.
*
Hey Selene, would you know of anybody who does the instalation of isolation barriers? Is it something any plumber can do? Tried google but not many results, they look something like this yeah?

user posted image
TSsubaiku
post Aug 3 2022, 07:51 PM

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QUOTE(gobiomani @ Jul 21 2022, 10:41 AM)
All those C20, C32, etc are MCBs.
Your DB box is using Hager components, better for you to buy Hager RCCBs as they will fit perfectly when you cover the enclosure. The enclosure tolerance is tight, if use other brands may not be able to close back, may need to trim the window on the enclosure cover if want to use cheaper brands. Take note that I am not talking about the outer cover, I'm talking about the cover where the stickers (main switch, danger, etc) are on.
On another note, your DB box should not be having those C32 MCBs unless there are ring circuits in your house (which is very unlikely). Check what those MCBs are for and replace them with more appropriately sized MCBs.
You must also change your main RCCB which is using 300mA sensitivity to 30mA (0.03A). 300mA house burn down also RCD will not trip.
*
Hey gobiomani, I've got another question, if my RCCB is 63A 300mA, is it neccesary to get the same 63A? As in a 63A 30mA RCCB?
TSsubaiku
post Aug 11 2022, 10:07 AM

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QUOTE(Selene Yeo @ Aug 8 2022, 12:07 AM)
Better get plumbers who know how to install storage water heaters to do it for u. At the inlet, u will need to connect it to the pressure relief valve too (water source piping > pressure relief valve > isolation barrier > storage water heater's inlet).

Yes it looks like the one in your picture, but better purchase from the storage water heater's brand distributor so that u get more assurance that it is a confirm fit.
*
Ok, thanks for that! Willdo! smile.gif

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