Airasia Loan Rights
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 Dec 1 2021, 11:13 AM, updated 5y ago
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#1
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Junior Member
37 posts Joined: Feb 2016 
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Hello, anyone can explain in details what actually is this? I'm holding airasia share and I receive a message from maybank investment staff regarding this, what happen if I take the rights(and how i do that)? and what happen if I didnt? thanks in advance
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Dec 1 2021, 02:13 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014 
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QUOTE(mwolf99 @ Dec 1 2021, 11:13 AM) Hello, anyone can explain in details what actually is this? I'm holding airasia share and I receive a message from maybank investment staff regarding this, what happen if I take the rights(and how i do that)? and what happen if I didnt? thanks in advance The rights will be credited to your account. You then have a short window to sell the Rights, from 3rd Dec to 9th Dec, If you don't sell, then you should subscribe to the RCUIDs by 17 Dec, otherwise you get hit by the dilution. You will then get the RCUIDS and some free warrants. The RCUIDs gives you interest and can be convertible to 1 share  This is from the top of my head..please verify the dates n also read up on the Abriged Prospectus to understand what this RCUIDs give you |
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Dec 1 2021, 02:54 PM
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#3
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Junior Member
69 posts Joined: Oct 2021
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Dec 1 2021, 02:13 PM) The rights will be credited to your account. You then have a short window to sell the Rights, from 3rd Dec to 9th Dec, If you don't sell, then you should subscribe to the RCUIDs by 17 Dec, otherwise you get hit by the dilution. You will then get the RCUIDS and some free warrants. The RCUIDs gives you interest and can be convertible to 1 share i too got the message and i am quite confused with this as well. first timer here by the way. so i just have to call the investment bank and inform them i want to sell the rights? This is from the top of my head..please verify the dates n also read up on the Abriged Prospectus to understand what this RCUIDs give you in the message it did state there will be free warrants upon purchasing additional units |
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Dec 1 2021, 03:15 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(Voopoo @ Dec 1 2021, 02:54 PM) i too got the message and i am quite confused with this as well. first timer here by the way. so i just have to call the investment bank and inform them i want to sell the rights? You can sell the rights like any normal share. You should see it in your CDS account by 3rd Dec.in the message it did state there will be free warrants upon purchasing additional units To get the free warrants you need to subscribe (buy) the RCUIDS. |
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Dec 1 2021, 03:16 PM
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#5
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Voopoo @ Dec 1 2021, 02:54 PM) i too got the message and i am quite confused with this as well. first timer here by the way. so i just have to call the investment bank and inform them i want to sell the rights? the rights is tradeable... so once it is listed you can either buy or sell those rights (like a normal stock) .... BUT REMEMBER this... it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.... these rights are only tradeable within a time period only... once it is past the trading period, these rights will be TOILET PAPER... worthless. So very important to check the trading period for these rights ya... in the message it did state there will be free warrants upon purchasing additional units  and ya... the first 2 days... 'usually' these type of rights can be extremely bullish... but once the buying frenzy... better sell ASAP!! This post has been edited by Boon3: Dec 1 2021, 03:16 PM |
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Dec 1 2021, 03:17 PM
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#6
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Staff
25,802 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Penang
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QUOTE(Voopoo @ Dec 1 2021, 02:54 PM) i too got the message and i am quite confused with this as well. first timer here by the way. so i just have to call the investment bank and inform them i want to sell the rights? If not intend to subscribe, can sell the Right in the market when it is trading at short period of specified listing time.in the message it did state there will be free warrants upon purchasing additional units You will see a new counter or stock ticker specified for the Right trading. The right is priced at RM0.75. So the Right is "in money" if the mothershare stay at current level (RM0.85) when trading. |
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Dec 1 2021, 03:18 PM
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#7
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Dec 1 2021, 03:15 PM) You can sell the rights like any normal share. You should see it in your CDS account by 3rd Dec. and if one believes so much in AA ( To get the free warrants you need to subscribe (buy) the RCUIDS.  ) ... they can of course subscribe to more shares by buying more rights. |
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Dec 1 2021, 03:53 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
5,529 posts Joined: Oct 2007
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 1 2021, 03:18 PM) and if one believes so much in AA ( excess application is not guaranteed right? hopefully it's not undersubscribed then. ) ... they can of course subscribe to more shares by buying more rights.AA needs a lot of money ah. if i were a shareholder and i believe in them, will subscribe also la. but if you dun subscribe, you get diluted. |
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Dec 1 2021, 04:00 PM
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#9
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(tehoice @ Dec 1 2021, 03:53 PM) excess application is not guaranteed right? hopefully it's not undersubscribed then. Yup... a bit complex situation....AA needs a lot of money ah. if i were a shareholder and i believe in them, will subscribe also la. but if you dun subscribe, you get diluted. consider this..... Now say one 'believes' in AA.... and had already invested a fair bit of money b4 Covid days... probably with cost > 2 (since b4 covid, got the juicy 'special special dividend) .... but now.... times are susah a bit..... own money not enough to subscribe  .... how? what would you do? adamw liked this post
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Dec 1 2021, 04:30 PM
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 1 2021, 04:00 PM) Yup... a bit complex situation.... I am reminded of AAX rights issue a few years back...consider this..... Now say one 'believes' in AA.... and had already invested a fair bit of money b4 Covid days... probably with cost > 2 (since b4 covid, got the juicy 'special special dividend) .... but now.... times are susah a bit..... own money not enough to subscribe .... how? what would you do? |
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Dec 1 2021, 04:54 PM
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Senior Member
5,529 posts Joined: Oct 2007
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 1 2021, 04:00 PM) Yup... a bit complex situation.... i would probably cut loss before covid already, why? you know this pandemic gonna affect the industry as a whole, on a prolonged basis. Also means, i'm not gonna buy-in until i see the light at the end of the tunnel.consider this..... Now say one 'believes' in AA.... and had already invested a fair bit of money b4 Covid days... probably with cost > 2 (since b4 covid, got the juicy 'special special dividend) .... but now.... times are susah a bit..... own money not enough to subscribe .... how? what would you do? but coming back to your question, hypothethically, if you don't buy, you get diluted, you don't get the free candies plus your mother share price would be adjusted. takkan you wanna take double / triple whammy hit by the move. I would still cough out some cash to subscribe, if I had come this far of course. |
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Dec 1 2021, 04:58 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(tehoice @ Dec 1 2021, 04:54 PM) i would probably cut loss before covid already, why? you know this pandemic gonna affect the industry as a whole, on a prolonged basis. Also means, i'm not gonna buy-in until i see the light at the end of the tunnel. Yes... but what if .... one doesn't have the extra money to spare right now to subscribe ? but coming back to your question, hypothethically, if you don't buy, you get diluted, you don't get the free candies plus your mother share price would be adjusted. takkan you wanna take double / triple whammy hit by the move. I would still cough out some cash to subscribe, if I had come this far of course.  times now, pretty bad ya? so if now still holding the AA shares (obviously at a lost), then very susah isn't it? |
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Dec 1 2021, 05:04 PM
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Staff
25,802 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Penang
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About the dilution discussion.
The current right is Redeemable Convertible unsecured Islamic debt securities (RCUIDS), not ordinary share right. Dilution on EPS and shareholding only occur when the RCUIDS is converted to mothershare, The RCUIDS is convertible at 1 to 1 basis, has a tenure of 7 years with 8% profit rate. |
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Dec 1 2021, 05:28 PM
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Senior Member
5,529 posts Joined: Oct 2007
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 1 2021, 04:58 PM) Yes... but what if .... one doesn't have the extra money to spare right now to subscribe ? Yes, indeed very susah, one has to bite the bullet and suffer more losses. times now, pretty bad ya? so if now still holding the AA shares (obviously at a lost), then very susah isn't it? QUOTE(cherroy @ Dec 1 2021, 05:04 PM) About the dilution discussion. sorry my bad, did not read the AP nor any other public doc. 8% profit rate p.a. sounds good though.The current right is Redeemable Convertible unsecured Islamic debt securities (RCUIDS), not ordinary share right. Dilution on EPS and shareholding only occur when the RCUIDS is converted to mothershare, The RCUIDS is convertible at 1 to 1 basis, has a tenure of 7 years with 8% profit rate. will have to read up. |
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Dec 1 2021, 05:32 PM
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Staff
25,802 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Penang
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QUOTE(tehoice @ Dec 1 2021, 05:28 PM) sorry my bad, did not read the AP nor any other public doc. 8% profit rate p.a. sounds good though. The RCUIDS 8% profit rate indeed is a attraction, and may be a better alternative compared to mothershare, as the RCUIDS is convertible to mothershare 1:1. will have to read up. |
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Dec 1 2021, 05:56 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
2,338 posts Joined: Oct 2014
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QUOTE(cherroy @ Dec 1 2021, 05:04 PM) The RCUIDS is convertible at 1 to 1 basis, has a tenure of 7 years with 8% profit rate. |
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Dec 1 2021, 06:17 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(cklimm @ Dec 1 2021, 05:56 PM) looks good, as long as they dont do haircut on their debt again. well.... the money from the rights issue... |
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Dec 3 2021, 09:02 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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ooops rights trading postponed to 6th....
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Dec 3 2021, 09:23 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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slightly off .... as it relates more to AAX but.... it's a good read.
https://www.msn.com/en-my/money/topstories/...=BingNewsSearch as one can see... the main issue was AirBus/Rolls-Royce and the lessors... that's the bulk of AAX debts.... okay Covid was one thing but it doesn't help when.... AirAsia went on a insane buying spree ( and yeah ... got that bribery scandal worth US$500 million ) .... look, they placed an order for way too many planes... at the peak, the planes orders totaled more than 100 Billion ringgit.... yeah.. who will bare that responsibility, eh? now AAX cannot pay... the lessor issue... yup... they went on an asset-light strategy ... ie... the sale of their airplanes and then they leaseback those planes... Such strategies always debatable... but what they did with the money is insane... they gave the bulk away as special dividends to its shareholders... leaving them with just bare minimum cash.... and when a Covid came.... die lor... minimum cash at hand .... lots of debts .... lease obligations... and no sale.... ahem..... surely someone needs to be responsible, yes? and then you see the proposed usage of the rights money.... where does it go? the bulk of it goes to... settling the fuel hedges and the paying back leases.... both again .... AA own mismanagement... THE hedging..... at the peak... b4 Covid... the hedging were insane. Yes... in a normal business school, they will teach that hedging is good for business... YES indeed... but like in most cases, abuses happen... companies will get greedy... and attempts to over hedge ... in an attempt to WIN money from their hedges... AA lost millions before with their hedges b4 and now it has happened again.... and this is the problem with the company ..... mismanagement. Covid? Only exposed them. |
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Dec 3 2021, 09:27 AM
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#20
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Senior Member
2,338 posts Joined: Oct 2014
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 3 2021, 09:23 AM) AA lost millions before with their hedges b4 and now it has happened again.... and this is the problem with the company ..... mismanagement. Covid? Only exposed them. This last paragraph is spot on, although all those "..." are so annoying to read,. |
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Dec 3 2021, 09:34 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(cklimm @ Dec 3 2021, 09:27 AM) Guess you were typing whatever that crosses your mind, Just a forum.. not writing for a newspaper or what notThis last paragraph is spot on, although all those "..." are so annoying to read,. |
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Dec 3 2021, 09:48 AM
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Junior Member
496 posts Joined: Sep 2008
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hi all sifu ,
newbie here , I am holding some AA shares , but I do not received any email regarding this loan rights. if I am interested , how do I proceed ? thanks |
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Dec 3 2021, 01:04 PM
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#23
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Junior Member
69 posts Joined: Oct 2021
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so today public holiday for Wilayah means cannot use the rights to purchase stocks? or sell rights?
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Dec 3 2021, 01:20 PM
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#24
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Senior Member
1,618 posts Joined: Mar 2020
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QUOTE(Voopoo @ Dec 3 2021, 01:04 PM) so today public holiday for Wilayah means cannot use the rights to purchase stocks? or sell rights? Bursa is closed. |
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Dec 6 2021, 09:22 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 1 2021, 06:17 PM) well.... the money from the rights issue... loan rights trading only at 4.5 sen .... not looking good. I guess market not liking the idea of dumping more money in AA.... |
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Dec 6 2021, 10:07 AM
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#26
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All Stars
12,281 posts Joined: Oct 2010
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SUCkeroo company
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Dec 6 2021, 11:02 AM
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#27
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Dec 6 2021, 10:07 AM) SUCkeroo company I agree..  A chunk of money from this fund raising will be used to payoff past gross mismanagement of the company... But more importantly..the investor will have to ask.. eilliy happen again? Massive betting on hedging... Will it happen the 3rd time? The gross greedy management which had plane orders way beyond into the future.... Will it happen again? |
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Dec 6 2021, 11:30 AM
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#28
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Senior Member
5,274 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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I held AA since 2016 and obviously I'm holding at a lost but the divs received from them were good.
I took up the rights and paid 1036 myr to get it through tricor. Pocket change for a gamble. |
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Dec 6 2021, 11:45 AM
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#29
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All Stars
12,281 posts Joined: Oct 2010
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 6 2021, 11:02 AM) I agree.. Paid himself a HUMONGOUS divddend in 2019 too! A chunk of money from this fund raising will be used to payoff past gross mismanagement of the company... But more importantly..the investor will have to ask.. eilliy happen again? Massive betting on hedging... Will it happen the 3rd time? The gross greedy management which had plane orders way beyond into the future.... Will it happen again?  |
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Dec 6 2021, 12:20 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Dec 6 2021, 11:45 AM) Paid himself a HUMONGOUS divddend in 2019 too! Yup... That special priviliged placement. *made a summary post #19* |
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Dec 6 2021, 01:39 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 6 2021, 09:22 AM) loan rights trading only at 4.5 sen .... 2.5 sens nownot looking good. I guess market not liking the idea of dumping more money in AA.... Mother is 81 sen Nice if can do RSS... This post has been edited by Cubalagi: Dec 6 2021, 01:39 PM |
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Dec 6 2021, 02:03 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Dec 6 2021, 01:39 PM) 2.5 sens now Mother is 81 sen Nice if can do RSS...  RSS is what ah? Tarak laku lah boss. If I was a shareholder, my focus is address what did it do to get into this mess? Is there future? The 2 things... too much debts and reckless, excessive hedging. The debts. This is caused by its commitment to buy new planes (which is over 100 Billion! Yes, 100 billion) and this I am afraid it's not going anywhere soon and there is not gonna be a solution anytime soon. Air travel might return and improve the next couple of years. I have no doubt over this. But with AA committed to the new planes orders, the debts issue WILL RETURN. I have no doubt about this issue. Yeah, it can buy new planes, sell the planes to a lessor company and then leaseback. Debts might not grow as big but leasing liabilities will balloon instead .... a never ending cycle which needs to be played almost 100 billion times (if AA sticks to its order committed) and then... the hedging.... that boss ... die die love to hedge... and hedge in a very aggressive manner ... not good. Don't see it changing, do you? So....... |
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Dec 6 2021, 10:16 PM
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Junior Member
496 posts Joined: Sep 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Dec 1 2021, 02:13 PM) The rights will be credited to your account. You then have a short window to sell the Rights, from 3rd Dec to 9th Dec, If you don't sell, then you should subscribe to the RCUIDs by 17 Dec, otherwise you get hit by the dilution. You will then get the RCUIDS and some free warrants. The RCUIDs gives you interest and can be convertible to 1 share hi , This is from the top of my head..please verify the dates n also read up on the Abriged Prospectus to understand what this RCUIDs give you when you say "you should subscribe to the RCUIDS by 17 Dec" , do you mean "No. of Rights Securities Provisionally Allotted" ? I notice today in my trading account , there is some unit allocated to my acc under AIRASIA-LR sorry newbie here |
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Dec 7 2021, 10:57 AM
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#34
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Senior Member
5,274 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(yibaandre @ Dec 6 2021, 10:16 PM) hi , LR you are supposed to sell if you don't want to keep it. Mind you the trading window is very short.when you say "you should subscribe to the RCUIDS by 17 Dec" , do you mean "No. of Rights Securities Provisionally Allotted" ? I notice today in my trading account , there is some unit allocated to my acc under AIRASIA-LR sorry newbie here You don't want to trade, you can sub rcuids. The worst you can do is don't do anything at all Cubalagi liked this post
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Dec 7 2021, 11:18 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(yibaandre @ Dec 6 2021, 10:16 PM) hi , U have to sell the Airasia-LR this weekwhen you say "you should subscribe to the RCUIDS by 17 Dec" , do you mean "No. of Rights Securities Provisionally Allotted" ? I notice today in my trading account , there is some unit allocated to my acc under AIRASIA-LR sorry newbie here Or, if you don't sell, you subscribe to the RCUIDS n cough up RM0.75. Best way to subscribe is to register with Tricor and do online subscription. As the earlier poster said..worse is to do nothing |
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Dec 7 2021, 11:35 AM
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Junior Member
496 posts Joined: Sep 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Dec 7 2021, 11:18 AM) U have to sell the Airasia-LR this week ok , thanks for the advice.Or, if you don't sell, you subscribe to the RCUIDS n cough up RM0.75. Best way to subscribe is to register with Tricor and do online subscription. As the earlier poster said..worse is to do nothing just open a tricor account yesterday say I do subscribe , from what I read , it can be converted to mothershare at 1:1 , earliest this conversion can be done ? thanks |
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Dec 7 2021, 11:49 AM
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#37
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(yibaandre @ Dec 7 2021, 11:35 AM) ok , thanks for the advice. The RCUIDs will be listed on 31st Dec..u can convert anytime after that. U also go to Tricor for conversion, but there are some forms etc to fill.just open a tricor account yesterday say I do subscribe , from what I read , it can be converted to mothershare at 1:1 , earliest this conversion can be done ? thanks Oh and u will also get a free warrant for 2 Rcuid subscribed. yibaandre liked this post
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Dec 7 2021, 12:04 PM
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Junior Member
496 posts Joined: Sep 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Dec 7 2021, 11:49 AM) The RCUIDs will be listed on 31st Dec..u can convert anytime after that. U also go to Tricor for conversion, but there are some forms etc to fill. at the tricor website , they have "No. of Rights Securities to Subscribe" and No. of Excess Securities to Apply"Oh and u will also get a free warrant for 2 Rcuid subscribed. which box do I key in the unit to subscribe ? thanks This post has been edited by yibaandre: Dec 7 2021, 12:06 PM |
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Dec 7 2021, 12:08 PM
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#39
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 6 2021, 09:22 AM) loan rights trading only at 4.5 sen .... Wow..rghts at 1.5 sen now just 2 days on.not looking good. I guess market not liking the idea of dumping more money in AA.... A huge volume waiting at half sen. This post has been edited by Cubalagi: Dec 7 2021, 12:08 PM |
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Dec 7 2021, 12:17 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Dec 7 2021, 12:08 PM) Wow..rghts at 1.5 sen now just 2 days on. buy/sell bids at 1 and 1.5 sen ..... huge gap....A huge volume waiting at half sen. if forced to sell the rights, it's only at 1 sen for now.... won't be surprised to see that bids change to 0.5/1 sen for me, AA is a goner... it's only a case of when only. With a plane orders worth 100 billion ringgit (for this issue alone, the management should be held responsbile) , whatever problems they have now, will resurface sooner rather than later. |
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Dec 7 2021, 12:45 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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... and clearly holders of AA not liking this rights issue...
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Dec 7 2021, 11:08 PM
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Senior Member
879 posts Joined: Oct 2008
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Can I do nothing ?? I don't even know what to click on rakuten
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Dec 8 2021, 09:10 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(rotloi @ Dec 7 2021, 11:08 PM) Can I do nothing ?? I don't even know what to click on rakuten If you do nothing, the AirAsia-LR will be worth nothing. Right now the stock is doing 0.05/01 sen... Selling at 1 sen... will be difficult, given the size of the sell Q ... which means... if wanna sell... have to sell at half sen... well at least you get back something.... |
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Dec 8 2021, 09:14 AM
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Junior Member
496 posts Joined: Sep 2008
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 8 2021, 09:10 AM) If you do nothing, the AirAsia-LR will be worth nothing. hi , Right now the stock is doing 0.05/01 sen... Selling at 1 sen... will be difficult, given the size of the sell Q ... which means... if wanna sell... have to sell at half sen... well at least you get back something.... when is the last date to sell ? thanks |
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Dec 8 2021, 09:16 AM
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Senior Member
5,529 posts Joined: Oct 2007
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QUOTE(Avangelice @ Dec 7 2021, 10:57 AM) LR you are supposed to sell if you don't want to keep it. Mind you the trading window is very short. better sell it for starbucks la if you dun intend to pour in more money.You don't want to trade, you can sub rcuids. The worst you can do is don't do anything at all otherwise it is worthless.... |
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Dec 8 2021, 09:21 AM
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Senior Member
5,529 posts Joined: Oct 2007
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QUOTE(yibaandre @ Dec 7 2021, 12:04 PM) at the tricor website , they have "No. of Rights Securities to Subscribe" and No. of Excess Securities to Apply" no. of rights securities to subscribe refers to the number that you wish to subscribe up to the full "entitlement" given to you.which box do I key in the unit to subscribe ? thanks no. of excess securities to apply refers to the number that you wish to subscribe over and above the "entitlement" given to you, means extra. |
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Dec 8 2021, 10:46 AM
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Junior Member
213 posts Joined: Feb 2008
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 3 2021, 09:23 AM) slightly off .... as it relates more to AAX but.... it's a good read. I help u summarise, AA last time confident, so start to buy a lot of planes, then rent the planes to its own compannies within the Group. But core earnings from its flying business was still low. Resulting in AA showing high growth n earnings when the core business is not growing tat fast.https://www.msn.com/en-my/money/topstories/...=BingNewsSearch as one can see... the main issue was AirBus/Rolls-Royce and the lessors... that's the bulk of AAX debts.... okay Covid was one thing but it doesn't help when.... AirAsia went on a insane buying spree ( and yeah ... got that bribery scandal worth US$500 million ) .... look, they placed an order for way too many planes... at the peak, the planes orders totaled more than 100 Billion ringgit.... yeah.. who will bare that responsibility, eh? now AAX cannot pay... the lessor issue... yup... they went on an asset-light strategy ... ie... the sale of their airplanes and then they leaseback those planes... Such strategies always debatable... but what they did with the money is insane... they gave the bulk away as special dividends to its shareholders... leaving them with just bare minimum cash.... and when a Covid came.... die lor... minimum cash at hand .... lots of debts .... lease obligations... and no sale.... ahem..... surely someone needs to be responsible, yes? and then you see the proposed usage of the rights money.... where does it go? the bulk of it goes to... settling the fuel hedges and the paying back leases.... both again .... AA own mismanagement... THE hedging..... at the peak... b4 Covid... the hedging were insane. Yes... in a normal business school, they will teach that hedging is good for business... YES indeed... but like in most cases, abuses happen... companies will get greedy... and attempts to over hedge ... in an attempt to WIN money from their hedges... AA lost millions before with their hedges b4 and now it has happened again.... and this is the problem with the company ..... mismanagement. Covid? Only exposed them. During tat time, everyone happpy, bankers get to do IPO, the AA group show nice profits, shareholderrs happy cos AA share price went up. Not forgetting that it was due to accounting treatment rather than true business growth that make everyone happy, now the down time takes all the 'happy happy' time away edi.. |
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Dec 8 2021, 11:30 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(tangtang22 @ Dec 8 2021, 10:46 AM) I help u summarise, AA last time confident, so start to buy a lot of planes, then rent the planes to its own compannies within the Group. But core earnings from its flying business was still low. Resulting in AA showing high growth n earnings when the core business is not growing tat fast. Sorry I would not use the word 'confident'. I would consider it as reckless.During tat time, everyone happpy, bankers get to do IPO, the AA group show nice profits, shareholderrs happy cos AA share price went up. Not forgetting that it was due to accounting treatment rather than true business growth that make everyone happy, now the down time takes all the 'happy happy' time away edi.. But if wanna a summary... post post #997 otherwise you can read the detailed summary inside... » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « |
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Dec 8 2021, 11:39 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#49
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(yibaandre @ Dec 8 2021, 09:14 AM) hi , Should be this Friday.when is the last date to sell ? thanks |
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Dec 8 2021, 12:27 PM
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Senior Member
879 posts Joined: Oct 2008
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I did not even subscribe anything then it become loan right ???
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Dec 8 2021, 01:19 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(rotloi @ Dec 8 2021, 12:27 PM) I did not even subscribe anything then it become loan right ??? Firstly... AA is in a really, really bad condition with liabilities more than its assets.So it needs a bailout/rescue package... The loan stock offering is one such rescue package. (AA did a share placement earlier) The loan stock offering. AA is asking folks to buy this loan stock. In return, it's giving a 8% payment on the loan stock + its giving a free warrant as a sweetener. To be entitled to this offering shareholders are given rights to subscribe to the loan stock. IT IS FREE, so if you own AA shares, you are given free RIGHTS. Now this RIGHTS is tradeable. It is an option for the shareholder. If they believe in the company, all they need to do is to subscribe to those loan stocks. Now if don't believe in this rescue package, they have the option to sell the RIGHTS (the rights now is trading at a miserable 0.05/0.1 sen) before the rights cease trading. Once the rights cease trading, the rights shares becomes NOTHING. (yup, 0.05 sen is still better than 0!!!) get a better picture now? This post has been edited by Boon3: Dec 8 2021, 01:20 PM |
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Dec 8 2021, 02:02 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#52
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Junior Member
649 posts Joined: Jan 2011
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Nowadays I would even hesitate to order anything from AA Food. You pay first , get your food later. Those same steps turned many customers into creditors and getting back only 0.05% of their money. Trouble is, you don't know when this will hit you next, so you are always playing a poker game with your transactions with AA.
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Dec 8 2021, 03:57 PM
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Staff
25,802 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Penang
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QUOTE(rotloi @ Dec 8 2021, 12:27 PM) I did not even subscribe anything then it become loan right ??? The -LR is given to you free if you are existing shareholder.The -LR enable you to buy the RCUIDS at RM0.75 and a free warrant for every 2 RCUIDS subscribed. Now your option : 1. Sell the -LR to the market (currently at RM0.005/0.01), get some money. 2. Using the -LR to subscribed the RCUIDS aka pay the RM0.75 and you will have the RCUIDS and a free warrant for every 2 RCUIDS subscribed which will be listed later on. 3. Do nothing. The -LR expired and ceased trading the in the market. |
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Dec 9 2021, 04:08 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#54
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Junior Member
577 posts Joined: May 2012 
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Left 32 million LR on the market. Tomorrow last day trading.
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Dec 9 2021, 06:57 PM
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Junior Member
822 posts Joined: Apr 2006
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QUOTE(cherroy @ Dec 8 2021, 04:57 PM) The -LR is given to you free if you are existing shareholder. option 3 is absolutely no go, if go for option3 might as well sell it at option 1, for a decent meal and no needed to worries on the RCUIDS.The -LR enable you to buy the RCUIDS at RM0.75 and a free warrant for every 2 RCUIDS subscribed. Now your option : 1. Sell the -LR to the market (currently at RM0.005/0.01), get some money. 2. Using the -LR to subscribed the RCUIDS aka pay the RM0.75 and you will have the RCUIDS and a free warrant for every 2 RCUIDS subscribed which will be listed later on. 3. Do nothing. The -LR expired and ceased trading the in the market. 10/12/2021 (Friday) is the last trading day  |
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Dec 10 2021, 06:00 AM
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Senior Member
3,599 posts Joined: Jun 2009 From: MYBoleh.NET
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QUOTE(kswee @ Dec 9 2021, 04:08 PM) Left 32 million LR on the market. Tomorrow last day trading. If I wanna subscribe instead of selling off the LR, how do I do it in Rakuten? Go to Buy, insert AirAsia LR and buy the amount based on the LR amount I have? |
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Dec 10 2021, 08:14 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#57
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Junior Member
577 posts Joined: May 2012
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QUOTE(MasBoleh! @ Dec 10 2021, 07:00 AM) If I wanna subscribe instead of selling off the LR, how do I do it in Rakuten? Go to Buy, insert AirAsia LR and buy the amount based on the LR amount I have? If you currently hold the LR Go to my account > Corporate action subscription Then subscribe + payment. |
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Dec 10 2021, 01:53 PM
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Senior Member
3,599 posts Joined: Jun 2009 From: MYBoleh.NET
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QUOTE(kswee @ Dec 10 2021, 08:14 AM) If you currently hold the LR Don’t see any subscribe button.Go to my account > Corporate action subscription Then subscribe + payment. Attached thumbnail(s) 
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Dec 10 2021, 01:54 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#59
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Junior Member
577 posts Joined: May 2012
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QUOTE(MasBoleh! @ Dec 10 2021, 02:53 PM) Don’t see any subscribe button. Use website. |
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Dec 10 2021, 02:38 PM
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Senior Member
3,812 posts Joined: Apr 2009 From: West Malaysia 
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totally noob on this.
just got the huge envelope today, what can i do with the pink form? not many shares with aa though.. jz for fun when bought that time.. currently stated number of rcuid allocated = 166, and warrants = 83.. amount payable 124.50 |
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Dec 10 2021, 03:36 PM
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Senior Member
3,599 posts Joined: Jun 2009 From: MYBoleh.NET
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QUOTE(kswee @ Dec 10 2021, 01:54 PM) Use website. Thank you so much. Subscribed. Now god please bless me…. This post has been edited by MasBoleh!: Dec 10 2021, 03:37 PM |
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Dec 10 2021, 03:38 PM
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Senior Member
3,599 posts Joined: Jun 2009 From: MYBoleh.NET
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QUOTE(spreeeee @ Dec 10 2021, 02:38 PM) totally noob on this. Yours if sell, too small to make a different. Just now I see… worth 0.05cent per rcuids if sell just got the huge envelope today, what can i do with the pink form? not many shares with aa though.. jz for fun when bought that time.. currently stated number of rcuid allocated = 166, and warrants = 83.. amount payable 124.50 Wanna join me and pay that 124.50? I just masuk 1k+ lol This post has been edited by MasBoleh!: Dec 10 2021, 03:39 PM |
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Dec 10 2021, 04:05 PM
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Senior Member
3,812 posts Joined: Apr 2009 From: West Malaysia
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QUOTE(MasBoleh! @ Dec 10 2021, 03:38 PM) Yours if sell, too small to make a different. Just now I see… worth 0.05cent per rcuids if sell how? im using mbb trade app..Wanna join me and pay that 124.50? I just masuk 1k+ lol This post has been edited by spreeeee: Dec 10 2021, 04:18 PM |
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Dec 10 2021, 04:43 PM
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Senior Member
3,812 posts Joined: Apr 2009 From: West Malaysia
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i jz done TIIH online registration, but need 1 day for approval..
but: Last date and time for the sale of Provisional Allotments: Friday, 10 December 2021 at 5.00 p.m. |
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Dec 10 2021, 05:01 PM
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Senior Member
3,812 posts Joined: Apr 2009 From: West Malaysia
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tiih approved within minutes.. so just completed everything online.. sharp 5pm
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Dec 10 2021, 05:02 PM
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Senior Member
3,599 posts Joined: Jun 2009 From: MYBoleh.NET
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QUOTE(spreeeee @ Dec 10 2021, 05:01 PM) tiih approved within minutes.. so just completed everything online.. sharp 5pm QUOTE The low-cost airline said trading for the rights will start from Dec 6, 2021, instead of Dec 3 as scheduled earlier. The prospectus and provisional allotment letter of offer, meanwhile, would be despatched on Dec 7, 2021, instead of the day before, it said in a filing with Bursa Malaysia on Thursday. AirAsia also changed the last day and time for acceptance, renunciation and payment to Dec 20 from Dec 17 as well as for the rights cessation quotation to Dec 13 from Dec 10. The last dates for sale and transfer of provisional allotments will be Dec 14 and Dec 20, respectively, compared to Dec 13 and Dec 17 previously. The entitlement date — Dec 2, 2021 — remains unchanged. https://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/aira...-public-holiday So today is not the last day? |
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Dec 10 2021, 05:12 PM
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Junior Member
206 posts Joined: Sep 2005
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QUOTE(spreeeee @ Dec 10 2021, 04:43 PM) i jz done TIIH online registration, but need 1 day for approval.. Why not you try and apply for excess sharesbut: Last date and time for the sale of Provisional Allotments: Friday, 10 December 2021 at 5.00 p.m. Currently you have 166 of LR, so you can apply for excess shares of 334 to make it a round figure of 500 shares altogether For excess shares you need to pay 334 x 0.75 = RM 250.50 Last date and time for the sale of Provisional Allotments is NOT the last day for you rights submission & payment You should be looking for Acceptance date, which is on 20th December. This is the cut off date to submit your LR payment I'm not sure you can use TIIH online for your payment for LR. Can't seem to find any AirAsia rights in there. However you can use Bursa Anywhere or manually - by applying banker's cheque and sending it by courier |
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Dec 10 2021, 05:24 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#68
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Junior Member
998 posts Joined: May 2014
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QUOTE(spreeeee @ Dec 10 2021, 04:43 PM) i jz done TIIH online registration, but need 1 day for approval.. This post has been edited by bcombat: Dec 10 2021, 05:25 PMbut: Last date and time for the sale of Provisional Allotments: Friday, 10 December 2021 at 5.00 p.m. Attached thumbnail(s) 
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Dec 10 2021, 06:32 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#69
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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Just for the record...
AirAsia closed at 0.775 |
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Dec 11 2021, 12:46 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#70
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Senior Member
879 posts Joined: Oct 2008
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Omg ask me to subscribe 166 share.. odddddd
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Dec 11 2021, 12:50 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#71
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Senior Member
879 posts Joined: Oct 2008
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QUOTE(cherroy @ Dec 8 2021, 03:57 PM) The -LR is given to you free if you are existing shareholder. The -LR enable you to buy the RCUIDS at RM0.75 and a free warrant for every 2 RCUIDS subscribed. Now your option : 1. Sell the -LR to the market (currently at RM0.005/0.01), get some money. 2. Using the -LR to subscribed the RCUIDS aka pay the RM0.75 and you will have the RCUIDS and a free warrant for every 2 RCUIDS subscribed which will be listed later on. 3. Do nothing. The -LR expired and ceased trading the in the market. QUOTE(genesic @ Dec 9 2021, 06:57 PM) option 3 is absolutely no go, if go for option3 might as well sell it at option 1, for a decent meal and no needed to worries on the RCUIDS. 10/12/2021 (Friday) is the last trading day QUOTE(kswee @ Dec 10 2021, 08:14 AM) If you currently hold the LR Go to my account > Corporate action subscription Then subscribe + payment. QUOTE(spreeeee @ Dec 10 2021, 02:38 PM) totally noob on this. Yoy guy buy or not ????? I mean subscribe corporate actioj ??just got the huge envelope today, what can i do with the pink form? not many shares with aa though.. jz for fun when bought that time.. currently stated number of rcuid allocated = 166, and warrants = 83.. amount payable 124.50 |
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Dec 11 2021, 08:40 AM
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Junior Member
822 posts Joined: Apr 2006
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QUOTE(spreeeee @ Dec 10 2021, 03:38 PM) totally noob on this. you miss the 10 Dec as last trading day to react to it.just got the huge envelope today, what can i do with the pink form? not many shares with aa though.. jz for fun when bought that time.. currently stated number of rcuid allocated = 166, and warrants = 83.. amount payable 124.50 now you can subsribe to the RCUIDS. |
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Dec 11 2021, 09:11 AM
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(spreeeee @ Dec 10 2021, 04:43 PM) i jz done TIIH online registration, but need 1 day for approval.. Yesterday 10 Dec was last trading day of the rights (LA).but: Last date and time for the sale of Provisional Allotments: Friday, 10 December 2021 at 5.00 p.m. For subscription, via Tricor etc., last day is 20th Dec. |
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Dec 27 2021, 09:41 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#74
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Junior Member
577 posts Joined: May 2012
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KUALA LUMPUR (Dec 27): AirAsia Group Bhd's RM974.5 million cash call received valid acceptances for 1.11 billion or 85.13% of the total available redeemable convertible unsecured Islamic debt securities (RCUIDS) at a nominal value of 75 sen apiece.
In a bourse filing on Monday (Dec 27), AirAsia said it had received a total of 1.11 billion in valid acceptances and excess applications for its RCUIDS as at 5pm last Monday (Dec 20). The filing revealed that there were 193.2 million RCUIDS or 14.87% of the total available RCUIDS that were not subscribed by its entitled shareholders. The aviation group added that the total number of excess RCUIDS available for allocation was 281.76 million. “In view that the total number of excess RCUIDS applied for was 88,553,443, the Board has decided to allot the excess RCUIDS to all entitled shareholders and/or their renouncee(s) or transferee(s) who have applied for the excess RCUIDS in full,” the filing said. Meanwhile a total of 193.2 million unsubscribed RCUIDS will be fully subscribed by its joint underwriters, RHB Investment Bank and Kenanga Investment Bank Berhad, based on the underwriting agreement signed between AirAsia and the banks on Nov 18. AirAsia’s two largest shareholders Tan Sri Tony Fernandes and Datuk Kamarudin Meranun via their 50-50 jointly-owned special purpose vehicle Sky Accord Sdn Bhd (SASB) have also fully subscribed to 343.03 million RCUIDS, representing 26.40% of the total RCUIDS available for subscription. Successful applicants of the RCUIS will also get one warrant for every two RCUIDS that they subscribed to. The RCUIDS and warrants are expected to be listed and quoted on Bursa Malaysia’s Main Market on Friday (Dec 31), the filing showed. This closing for acceptance of the RCUIDS would net AirAsia approximately RM829.61 million based on 75 sen per RCUIDS for 1.11 billion RCUIDS, based on a back-of-the-envelope calculation. The RCUIDS issuance, coupled with other fundraising activities that was taken by the aviation group such as the RM500 million Danajamin-guaranteed loan secured in October, as well as a private placement of 470.21 million shares which raised RM336.46 million in March, would see the aviation group raise around RM1.67 billion. AirAsia had planned to raise between RM2 billion and RM2.5 billion via a combination of equity and debt to finance, among others, working capital requirements of the group. For the six months ended June 30, 2021, AirAsia managed to narrow its losses to RM1.35 billion from RM1.8 billion a year earlier, while revenue shrank to RM686.82 million from RM2.49 billion. Its cash balance meanwhile dwindled to RM235.61 million from RM996.12 million. AirAsia shares were flat at 81.5 sen on Monday, giving the aviation group a market capitalisation of RM3.16 billion. |
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Dec 28 2021, 11:19 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#75
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Junior Member
998 posts Joined: May 2014
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QUOTE(kswee @ Dec 27 2021, 09:41 PM) KUALA LUMPUR (Dec 27): AirAsia Group Bhd's RM974.5 million cash call received valid acceptances for 1.11 billion or 85.13% of the total available redeemable convertible unsecured Islamic debt securities (RCUIDS) at a nominal value of 75 sen apiece. The RCUIDS and warrants are expected to be listed and quoted on Bursa Malaysia’s Main Market on Friday (Dec 31), the filing showed.In a bourse filing on Monday (Dec 27), AirAsia said it had received a total of 1.11 billion in valid acceptances and excess applications for its RCUIDS as at 5pm last Monday (Dec 20). The filing revealed that there were 193.2 million RCUIDS or 14.87% of the total available RCUIDS that were not subscribed by its entitled shareholders. The aviation group added that the total number of excess RCUIDS available for allocation was 281.76 million. “In view that the total number of excess RCUIDS applied for was 88,553,443, the Board has decided to allot the excess RCUIDS to all entitled shareholders and/or their renouncee(s) or transferee(s) who have applied for the excess RCUIDS in full,” the filing said. Meanwhile a total of 193.2 million unsubscribed RCUIDS will be fully subscribed by its joint underwriters, RHB Investment Bank and Kenanga Investment Bank Berhad, based on the underwriting agreement signed between AirAsia and the banks on Nov 18. AirAsia’s two largest shareholders Tan Sri Tony Fernandes and Datuk Kamarudin Meranun via their 50-50 jointly-owned special purpose vehicle Sky Accord Sdn Bhd (SASB) have also fully subscribed to 343.03 million RCUIDS, representing 26.40% of the total RCUIDS available for subscription. Successful applicants of the RCUIS will also get one warrant for every two RCUIDS that they subscribed to. The RCUIDS and warrants are expected to be listed and quoted on Bursa Malaysia’s Main Market on Friday (Dec 31), the filing showed. This closing for acceptance of the RCUIDS would net AirAsia approximately RM829.61 million based on 75 sen per RCUIDS for 1.11 billion RCUIDS, based on a back-of-the-envelope calculation. The RCUIDS issuance, coupled with other fundraising activities that was taken by the aviation group such as the RM500 million Danajamin-guaranteed loan secured in October, as well as a private placement of 470.21 million shares which raised RM336.46 million in March, would see the aviation group raise around RM1.67 billion. AirAsia had planned to raise between RM2 billion and RM2.5 billion via a combination of equity and debt to finance, among others, working capital requirements of the group. For the six months ended June 30, 2021, AirAsia managed to narrow its losses to RM1.35 billion from RM1.8 billion a year earlier, while revenue shrank to RM686.82 million from RM2.49 billion. Its cash balance meanwhile dwindled to RM235.61 million from RM996.12 million. AirAsia shares were flat at 81.5 sen on Monday, giving the aviation group a market capitalisation of RM3.16 billion. |
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Dec 31 2021, 11:18 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#76
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Senior Member
5,274 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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Received my rcuids today. How do I convert them? Through my broker? Email?
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Dec 31 2021, 04:38 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#77
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(Avangelice @ Dec 31 2021, 11:18 AM) Received my rcuids today. How do I convert them? Through my broker? Email? Try contact broker or the share registrar (Tricor) |
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Dec 31 2021, 04:39 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#78
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Senior Member
5,274 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Dec 31 2021, 04:38 PM) Try contact broker or the share registrar (Tricor) Thank you! |
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Jan 1 2022, 12:04 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#79
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Junior Member
626 posts Joined: Jul 2020 From: Land of Honah Lee
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QUOTE(Avangelice @ Dec 31 2021, 11:18 AM) Received my rcuids today. How do I convert them? Through my broker? Email? why do you want to convert it now? |
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Jan 1 2022, 01:04 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#80
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Senior Member
5,274 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(howyoulikethat @ Jan 1 2022, 12:04 PM) why do you want to convert it now? My entry point is already very high. Like 3 myr and I just left it like that. Converting them would help to average it down alot |
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Jan 1 2022, 09:28 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#81
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Junior Member
626 posts Joined: Jul 2020 From: Land of Honah Lee
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QUOTE(Avangelice @ Jan 1 2022, 01:04 PM) My entry point is already very high. Like 3 myr and I just left it like that. Converting them would help to average it down alot i see. But if you have been holding thus far, wouldn't it be better if you wait until Airasia share goes above 1.50, then convert? Or just buy Airasia stock to average down now? Coz the loan stock costs 0.75, conversion costs another RM0.75, but Airasia share is only 0.79 now. |
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Jan 2 2022, 09:27 AM
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(howyoulikethat @ Jan 1 2022, 09:28 PM) i see. But if you have been holding thus far, wouldn't it be better if you wait until Airasia share goes above 1.50, then convert? Or just buy Airasia stock to average down now? Coz the loan stock costs 0.75, conversion costs another RM0.75, but Airasia share is only 0.79 now. You do not need to pay an extra Rm0.75 to convert the loan stock. It's exchangeable on a one for one basisThis post has been edited by Cubalagi: Jan 2 2022, 09:27 AM |
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Jan 2 2022, 10:58 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#83
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Junior Member
626 posts Joined: Jul 2020 From: Land of Honah Lee
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jan 2 2022, 09:27 AM) You do not need to pay an extra Rm0.75 to convert the loan stock. It's exchangeable on a one for one basis ah, I understand now. Thanks! |
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Jan 2 2022, 12:32 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#84
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(howyoulikethat @ Jan 2 2022, 10:58 AM) ah, I understand now. Thanks! But u raised a valid point. If me I will probably just hold the RCUIDS to get the 8% interest and only convert when the mother share gets much higher. This is of course assuming a more bullish view of Air Asia long term (if not bullish then why subscribe in the first place?). howyoulikethat liked this post
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Jan 2 2022, 12:57 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jan 2 2022, 12:32 PM) But u raised a valid point. If me I will probably just hold the RCUIDS to get the 8% interest and only convert when the mother share gets much higher. This is of course assuming a more bullish view of Air Asia long term (if not bullish then why subscribe in the first place?). I would like to hear the reason WHY one would be bullish in the company on the long run... Yeah.. air travel should easily improve in the near future but the whole structure of AA is so fundamentally weak. Too many deep holes to cover. For example... we are still talking about a company burdened to death with plane leases totalling over 10 billion. That's like a fix long term payment of leases which runs over 100 million per quarter.... Then the obligations to buy new planes, which is way above 100 billion (no typo here)...which means debts will soar in the future. The loan stock. At 8% per annum.. that's another long term debt. Yup...pls tell me why... |
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Jan 4 2022, 10:05 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#86
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Senior Member
5,274 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 2 2022, 12:57 PM) I would like to hear the reason WHY one would be bullish in the company on the long run... I have no idea why you are really hating on AA but my beliefs are I want exposure to airlines and its an industry controlled by MAS which is a government entity or its AA which to me its a discruptive company that challenges a status quo.Yeah.. air travel should easily improve in the near future but the whole structure of AA is so fundamentally weak. Too many deep holes to cover. For example... we are still talking about a company burdened to death with plane leases totalling over 10 billion. That's like a fix long term payment of leases which runs over 100 million per quarter.... Then the obligations to buy new planes, which is way above 100 billion (no typo here)...which means debts will soar in the future. The loan stock. At 8% per annum.. that's another long term debt. Yup...pls tell me why... Second reason is if it can weather the mcos and covid Pandemic and delve it's hands in food delivery and banking. It is a resilient company. |
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Jan 4 2022, 10:30 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Avangelice @ Jan 4 2022, 10:05 AM) I have no idea why you are really hating on AA but my beliefs are I want exposure to airlines and its an industry controlled by MAS which is a government entity or its AA which to me its a discruptive company that challenges a status quo. Dude. It is not about hate. What I said on the previous post is all based on facts. Is lease liabilities above 10 billion currently? Is obligation to buy new planes above 100 billion? These are all facts. Fundamental facts which prove the company is in deep shit.Second reason is if it can weather the mcos and covid Pandemic and delve it's hands in food delivery and banking. It is a resilient company. I avoid talking beliefs. Secondly, food delivery? Its super apps are losing money. Millions. Do refer their reported numbers. Banking? What banking? |
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Jan 4 2022, 10:37 AM
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Junior Member
166 posts Joined: Aug 2006
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is the warrant allow to convert to mothershare like the RCUID?
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Jan 4 2022, 10:41 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#89
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Asus W3V @ Jan 4 2022, 10:37 AM) is the warrant allow to convert to mothershare like the RCUID? Yes but the conversion fee is 1.0. Asus W3V liked this post
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Jan 4 2022, 10:51 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#90
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Avangelice @ Jan 4 2022, 10:05 AM) I have no idea why you are really hating on AA but my beliefs are I want exposure to airlines and its an industry controlled by MAS which is a government entity or its AA which to me its a discruptive company that challenges a status quo. Btw.. Put all feellings aside... no need talk love/hate. Pointless la. Second reason is if it can weather the mcos and covid Pandemic and delve it's hands in food delivery and banking. It is a resilient company. So covid, did huge damage on the sales revenue but let's look at the numbers.. what hurt AA really bad? Me? What I see was. 1. Excessive hedging which led to hundreds and hundreds of million in hedging losses. If not mistaken, close to 1 billion on hedging losses. 2. Leasing. 3. Debts. 3 issues which were horrendously managed. This post has been edited by Boon3: Jan 4 2022, 10:51 AM |
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Jan 4 2022, 10:56 AM
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Junior Member
166 posts Joined: Aug 2006
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 4 2022, 10:41 AM) Yes but the conversion fee is 1.0. bro can you give example for this? |
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Jan 4 2022, 10:57 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#92
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 4 2022, 10:41 AM) Yes but the conversion fee is 1.0. RM1 is the exercise price. Asus W3V liked this post
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Jan 4 2022, 10:59 AM
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Junior Member
166 posts Joined: Aug 2006
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jan 4 2022, 10:57 AM) RM1 is the exercise price. okay means it is worth to convert if mothershare is beyond RM 1.xx . .we can convert or sell this within 7 years right? |
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Jan 4 2022, 11:31 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#94
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(Asus W3V @ Jan 4 2022, 10:59 AM) okay means it is worth to convert if mothershare is beyond RM 1.xx . . Yes.we can convert or sell this within 7 years right? The warrant is currently "out of the money".But you can see it's trading at about 0.20 on bursa. That's the market valuation of the warrant's "time value" as the warrant has a duration of 7 years. Asus W3V liked this post
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Jan 4 2022, 12:51 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jan 4 2022, 10:57 AM) RM1 is the exercise price. hehehe.... ya... proper england is exercise price. |
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Jan 4 2022, 12:56 PM
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Junior Member
687 posts Joined: Jul 2010
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jan 4 2022, 11:31 AM) Yes. Ya, It has 85 months lifetime before expired. Still have time to perform.The warrant is currently "out of the money".But you can see it's trading at about 0.20 on bursa. That's the market valuation of the warrant's "time value" as the warrant has a duration of 7 years. The only matter is whether AirAsia could survive or not? |
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Jan 4 2022, 01:09 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#97
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Senior Member
3,356 posts Joined: Dec 2006
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QUOTE(Avangelice @ Jan 4 2022, 10:05 AM) I have no idea why you are really hating on AA but my beliefs are I want exposure to airlines and its an industry controlled by MAS which is a government entity or its AA which to me its a discruptive company that challenges a status quo. AA food delivery is a joke, too bad not April yet. Management already have problem with bike team due to their usual tactics of squeezing everything & everyone.Second reason is if it can weather the mcos and covid Pandemic and delve it's hands in food delivery and banking. It is a resilient company. |
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Jan 4 2022, 01:30 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(giftfre @ Jan 4 2022, 12:56 PM) Ya, It has 85 months lifetime before expired. Still have time to perform. Exactly!The only matter is whether AirAsia could survive or not? Fundamentals at this point is most crucial because the loan rights c/w warrants happened because it's a billion dollar fundraiser attempt to rescue AA. The last reporter QR...  yaa..... we can see clearly the superapp/digital/big pay are all losing money.... and yea... part of the money raised from the loans stock issue will be dumped into the digital business... The debts AA is carrying...  The lease burden ... 13.9 billion!!  The new planes on back order.... 97 billion!!  ( all of which I would argue that is all AA own gross mismanagement!! ) and this is where the money of the 1 billion loan stock issue will go to... (500 million goes for working expenses ) how? Can AA survive based on these numbers?? |
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Jan 4 2022, 01:51 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#99
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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Strange thing is that the stock has a -0.81 NTA (based on latest quarter)...today is traded at 0.81!!! |
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Jan 4 2022, 02:15 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jan 4 2022, 01:51 PM) Strange thing is that the stock has a -0.81 NTA (based on latest quarter)...today is traded at 0.81!!! Yup... many thanks to Bursa, AA was not reclassifed as a PN stock.... » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « |
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Jan 4 2022, 04:16 PM
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Junior Member
687 posts Joined: Jul 2010
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 4 2022, 01:30 PM) Exactly! Yes, Ah Boon. from the technical data and current prospect, this stock can keep in cold storage, no eye see.Fundamentals at this point is most crucial because the loan rights c/w warrants happened because it's a billion dollar fundraiser attempt to rescue AA. The last reporter QR... yaa..... we can see clearly the superapp/digital/big pay are all losing money.... and yea... part of the money raised from the loans stock issue will be dumped into the digital business... The debts AA is carrying... The lease burden ... 13.9 billion!! The new planes on back order.... 97 billion!! ( all of which I would argue that is all AA own gross mismanagement!! ) and this is where the money of the 1 billion loan stock issue will go to... (500 million goes for working expenses )how? Can AA survive based on these numbers?? Previous post, got member support AirAsia merely because keep faith in Mr Tony (some said he is sifu in pursuing people/ manipulate the biz). So my point is for this counter, we can only depend on how Tony and the team see the risk/ problem and turn into opportunity. Plz keep posting latest news about Tony and the team action plan and strategy. May be he still got Cable besar with current PM. |
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Jan 4 2022, 04:24 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(giftfre @ Jan 4 2022, 04:16 PM) Yes, Ah Boon. from the technical data and current prospect, this stock can keep in cold storage, no eye see. For me, beside avoiding this stock, I would stress all this mess is from its own mismanagement.... Previous post, got member support AirAsia merely because keep faith in Mr Tony (some said he is sifu in pursuing people/ manipulate the biz). So my point is for this counter, we can only depend on how Tony and the team see the risk/ problem and turn into opportunity. Plz keep posting latest news about Tony and the team action plan and strategy. May be he still got Cable besar with current PM. Developing growth from engineering of debts is nothing but a house of debts and this is what AA is. And worst still, he gambled heavily and lost extremely heavy on hedging. The 100 billion worth of obligation to buy new airplanes (yeah, whatever happened to that bribery case?) is utterly insane. |
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Jan 13 2022, 04:10 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#103
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Junior Member
998 posts Joined: May 2014
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 scary…… |
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Jan 13 2022, 04:31 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#104
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(bcombat @ Jan 13 2022, 04:10 PM) scary…… |
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Jan 13 2022, 04:43 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jan 13 2022, 04:31 PM) Maybe underwriters unloading? come next reporting QR ... will its ASSets > liabilities? |
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Jan 14 2022, 12:22 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#106
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Junior Member
998 posts Joined: May 2014
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Jan 14 2022, 07:45 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#107
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jan 4 2022, 01:51 PM) Strange thing is that the stock has a -0.81 NTA (based on latest quarter)...today is traded at 0.81!!! Nah...https://www.thestar.com.my/business/busines...39s-pn17-appeal Bursa so bad ah? Got give or no give chansi? |
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Jan 14 2022, 09:52 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#108
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Junior Member
998 posts Joined: May 2014
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Jan 14 2022, 09:57 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#109
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Junior Member
998 posts Joined: May 2014
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anyway the stock has bounced from the worst
 This post has been edited by bcombat: Jan 14 2022, 09:58 AM |
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Jan 14 2022, 10:45 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#110
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 14 2022, 07:45 AM) Nah... Already give chance since July 2020.https://www.thestar.com.my/business/busines...39s-pn17-appeal Bursa so bad ah? Got give or no give chansi? N PN17 not the end of the world yet... |
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Jan 14 2022, 11:01 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jan 14 2022, 10:45 AM) Already give chance since July 2020. True that PN17 is not 100% dead.... but then...N PN17 not the end of the world yet... AA how la.... 1 billion rights issue... (amount correct?) Got that placement share... Dunno how many millions... Got that few hundred million loan... yes? And yet...... here we are... the overwhelming lubang is still there... |
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Jan 14 2022, 11:39 AM
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Senior Member
3,182 posts Joined: Nov 2008 From: KL
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QUOTE(bcombat @ Jan 14 2022, 09:57 AM) anyway the stock has bounced from the worst Dead cat bounce  |
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Jan 14 2022, 12:19 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#113
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All Stars
21,458 posts Joined: Jul 2012
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What happened to air Asia creditors will likely happen to shareholders. No prize given who will be the winner at the end.
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Jan 14 2022, 12:26 PM
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Senior Member
5,529 posts Joined: Oct 2007
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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Jan 14 2022, 12:19 PM) What happened to air Asia creditors will likely happen to shareholders. No prize given who will be the winner at the end. shareholder = equity owners = last to recoup every single cent left behind. |
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Jan 14 2022, 05:55 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#115
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Junior Member
501 posts Joined: Apr 2020
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I always wonder that this company, annual report always show negative figures, but people still supporting it. Now it just went from bad to worse..even during precovid the statements alrdy showing negative figures
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Jan 14 2022, 06:44 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#116
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(HumbleBF @ Jan 14 2022, 05:55 PM) I always wonder that this company, annual report always show negative figures, but people still supporting it. Now it just went from bad to worse..even during precovid the statements alrdy showing negative figures This is why you have to discard all emotions and opinions and read the report as it is. No love/hate or fansi stuff. And discard all hero worship nonsense. Read the numbers as it is. The house of card was there for all to see...... |
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Jan 14 2022, 06:49 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#117
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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Even now.... what's the future hurdles? 1. The lease liabilities, which runs over 10 billion currently. 2. The insane commitment to buy 100 billion worth of airplanes. 3. The depreciation of leased assets. Yup. It's leased planes has a age factor. 4. Can the shareholder trust the boss not to simply bet on its hedges? Last but not least covid wasn't the reason why the company is in such a hold. COVID only exposed its failings. dattebayo liked this post
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Jan 14 2022, 11:27 PM
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Junior Member
501 posts Joined: Apr 2020
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 14 2022, 06:44 PM) This is why you have to discard all emotions and opinions and read the report as it is. Yeah...but one thing if AA close down, I'm sure all of sad la, as no more low cost flights lol.No love/hate or fansi stuff. And discard all hero worship nonsense. Read the numbers as it is. The house of card was there for all to see...... I remembered I just briefly go through their AR a few years back and the highlights were all negative. I'm shocked at that time knowing that it is a famous airlines but not making any profits for years. Like what happened? Then I've just ignored this counter till now, the news of Pn17. Not surprised.. |
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Jan 15 2022, 12:32 AM
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Senior Member
3,599 posts Joined: Jun 2009 From: MYBoleh.NET
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 14 2022, 06:44 PM) This is why you have to discard all emotions and opinions and read the report as it is. Those details from the report you got, is it their financial report?No love/hate or fansi stuff. And discard all hero worship nonsense. Read the numbers as it is. The house of card was there for all to see...... |
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Jan 15 2022, 03:49 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#120
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All Stars
21,458 posts Joined: Jul 2012
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 14 2022, 06:49 PM) Even now.... what's the future hurdles? sell and lease back the fleet was to 1. The lease liabilities, which runs over 10 billion currently. 2. The insane commitment to buy 100 billion worth of airplanes. 3. The depreciation of leased assets. Yup. It's leased planes has a age factor. 4. Can the shareholder trust the boss not to simply bet on its hedges? Last but not least covid wasn't the reason why the company is in such a hold. COVID only exposed its failings. 100 billions order is typical of flamboyant leader to project a very rosy prospect. it is normal for airlines to hedge on fuel and forex rate. however, after some initial wins, greed overrode prudency. guess this is a classic case of 'only after the tide turned would reveal who was swimming naked'. air asia business is sustainable and financially feasible post covid; believe tf could muster enough backing to revive the operation. whether oren kato politicians allow non to be successful remain uncertain and another matter. believe some wanted malaysia airlines to return to former glory with monopoly. |
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Jan 15 2022, 06:10 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(HumbleBF @ Jan 14 2022, 11:27 PM) Yeah...but one thing if AA close down, I'm sure all of sad la, as no more low cost flights lol. The engineering of debts can be seen from day one. I remembered I just briefly go through their AR a few years back and the highlights were all negative. I'm shocked at that time knowing that it is a famous airlines but not making any profits for years. Like what happened? Then I've just ignored this counter till now, the news of Pn17. Not surprised.. Anyway, the pn17 news is not new. Liabilities had been greater than its assets for quite some time. Yup. Bursa had given them a grace period since June 2020. |
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Jan 15 2022, 06:11 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(MasBoleh! @ Jan 15 2022, 12:32 AM) Those details from the report you got, is it their financial report? Yes. Can be read either from its Quarterly Reports or Annusl reports. |
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Jan 15 2022, 09:40 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#123
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Senior Member
3,599 posts Joined: Jun 2009 From: MYBoleh.NET
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 15 2022, 06:11 AM) Yes. Can be read either from its Quarterly Reports or Annusl reports. I see. Thank you Boon3 |
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Jan 15 2022, 09:53 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(MasBoleh! @ Jan 15 2022, 12:32 AM) Those details from the report you got, is it their financial report? And yes... whenever you read anything (be it social media, your closest friend/relative, your bosses or even news media, it pays to verify what you have read )I made the point that AA was built on debts... Well one can verify that statement by checking either the QR or the annual reports. Let's do it via the QR... Not the best but for simplicity sake, I just use each year 4th QR.... and my focus is on cash, total borrowings, capital commitment for new planes 2008 https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...-Dec%202008.pdf Cash 593 million Total loans 6.69 Billion Capital commitment 24.86 billion ==>> Right from the start... net debt in loans is about 6 billion. Owe ppl 6 billion but wants to buy 24 billion worth of new planes... 2009 https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...02009_FINAL.pdf Cash 747 million Total loans 7.593 Billion Capital commitment 24.6 billion ==> debts increased okay? ..... fast forward.... lazy sikit 2015 https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...%2026%20Feb.pdf Cash 1.3 Billion Total loans 12.7 Billion Capital commitment 66.296 billion ===> see how the company gets deeper in debts? fast forward... 2017... https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...Feb18_Final.pdf Cash 1.8 Billion Total loans 9.3 Billion Capital commitment 89.8 billion ===> company had started selling and leasing back its planes... fast forward lastest QR https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...021%20Final.pdf Cash 400.7 million Total loans 1.2 Billion Capital commitment 97.3 billion Lease liabilities 13.9 Billion and there you have.... since 2008.... what really has AA achieved? when you line up the data, preferably in ur own worksheet, it's much easier to see what's happening.... and all this is the company own doing. and yes, on hedging... run thru the QRs the same way... you can see how AA took on way too much hedging risk (yes, business hedging is always good but whatever's good can turn bad if one over do it) and you can also see, throughout its history, go see how much hedging losses has AA suffered ..... |
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Jan 15 2022, 10:19 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#125
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All Stars
21,458 posts Joined: Jul 2012
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Due to capital intensive and highly depreciated assets, it is normal for airlines to build on debts even well run airlines like sq. how debts is managed is another debts. |
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Jan 15 2022, 12:19 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#126
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Junior Member
998 posts Joined: May 2014
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Jan 15 2022, 12:51 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(MasBoleh! @ Jan 15 2022, 09:40 AM) I see. Thank you Boon3 You are welcome.The condensed income statement is useful too! https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...021%20Final.pdf  As you can see, the big ticket items ... 1. Depreciation of right of use asset = 416m per quarter 2. Lease liabilities = 115m per quarter 3. Finance costs = 50m per quarter and yeah... staff cost ~ 120 million per quarter... Yea... if I do a simple rough count, that's close to 700m per quarter. and the Aviation revenue was only 118m.... even if Aviation revenue increases 3 fold, revenue will only be around 450 million... As you can see, it's a long way off now for AA to even register a profit.... and TIME is never a friend of a lousy business.... the leased airplanes will depreciate more as time passes..... the shelf live tioo....... yup...... AA will have to take in new planes in the future too, but how? Which sky will the money drop from? Borrow again? This post has been edited by Boon3: Jan 15 2022, 12:52 PM |
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Jan 15 2022, 01:11 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(MasBoleh! @ Jan 15 2022, 09:40 AM) I see. Thank you Boon3 Here's an old posting of mine in 2016....================================================== http://www.theedgemarkets.com/my/article/a...imb-ib-research In his note to investors today, Yap said investors have generally been cautious on the potential orders, fearing that AirAsia is once again over-expanding. "Investors did not like the additional 100 orders which come at a list price of US$125.7 million each, as they come on top of the undelivered 304 A320neo orders," he said. :x 304 belum deliver... Order 100 lagi..... LOL How to write the word DIE ah? source: posting #83 ================================================== See how AA backorder of new airplanes got so big? AA went into a buying orgy during those years (and of course later we also found out about the Airbus bribery scandal) ..... Backorder of 304 airplanes undelivered... and AA went to order another 100 new ones.... !!!!! This is hole that AA dug itself. Covid only exposed it! |
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Jan 15 2022, 01:48 PM
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All Stars
21,458 posts Joined: Jul 2012
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 15 2022, 12:51 PM) You are welcome. Depreciation is non cash and is before EBITDA.The condensed income statement is useful too! https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...021%20Final.pdf As you can see, the big ticket items ... 1. Depreciation of right of use asset = 416m per quarter 2. Lease liabilities = 115m per quarter 3. Finance costs = 50m per quarter and yeah... staff cost ~ 120 million per quarter... Yea... if I do a simple rough count, that's close to 700m per quarter. and the Aviation revenue was only 118m.... even if Aviation revenue increases 3 fold, revenue will only be around 450 million... As you can see, it's a long way off now for AA to even register a profit.... and TIME is never a friend of a lousy business.... the leased airplanes will depreciate more as time passes..... the shelf live tioo....... yup...... AA will have to take in new planes in the future too, but how? Which sky will the money drop from? Borrow again? |
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Jan 15 2022, 04:47 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#130
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Junior Member
626 posts Joined: Jul 2020 From: Land of Honah Lee
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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Jan 15 2022, 03:49 AM) sell and lease back the fleet was to just curious, what do you mean by air asia business is sustainable and financially feasible post covid?100 billions order is typical of flamboyant leader to project a very rosy prospect. it is normal for airlines to hedge on fuel and forex rate. however, after some initial wins, greed overrode prudency. guess this is a classic case of 'only after the tide turned would reveal who was swimming naked'. air asia business is sustainable and financially feasible post covid; believe tf could muster enough backing to revive the operation. whether oren kato politicians allow non to be successful remain uncertain and another matter. believe some wanted malaysia airlines to return to former glory with monopoly. |
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Jan 15 2022, 05:39 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#131
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(howyoulikethat @ Jan 15 2022, 04:47 PM) just curious, what do you mean by air asia business is sustainable and financially feasible post covid? Airlines has always been a lousy business. What's worst is an airlines with a lousy management. If A was sustainable, why on earth did it embark on a wholesale sales and leaseback program? |
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Jan 15 2022, 05:43 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#132
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Junior Member
626 posts Joined: Jul 2020 From: Land of Honah Lee
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 15 2022, 05:39 PM) Airlines has always been a lousy business. What's worst is an airlines with a lousy management. hence my question to icemanfxIf A was sustainable, why on earth did it embark on a wholesale sales and leaseback program? |
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Jan 15 2022, 06:32 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(howyoulikethat @ Jan 15 2022, 05:43 PM) hence my question to icemanfx anyway, just for chatting sake... post#124, the posting with all the QR links... This part was the most important part.....  2015 https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...%2026%20Feb.pdf Cash 1.3 Billion Total loans 12.7 Billion Capital commitment 66.296 billion =========== here's why.... Yes, the cash of 1.3 Billion vs 12.7 billion in loans showed how unstainable the company was... choking with the delivery of new air planes .... debts up to its neck...... how to take on new loans? survival was really an issue then!!! And ironically, 2015 was when AirAsia started embarking on its sale and leaseback of its airplanes...... rest really was history.... the weakness back then... so easy to spot in 2016 (my old postings are still out there .... somewhere... )anyway.... the bottom line today is still the fact that liabilities is more than assets..... ie... INSOLVENCY!!! and not helping at all, air travel is still very much limited..... This post has been edited by Boon3: Jan 15 2022, 06:33 PM |
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Jan 15 2022, 06:53 PM
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Senior Member
3,599 posts Joined: Jun 2009 From: MYBoleh.NET
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 15 2022, 09:53 AM) And yes... whenever you read anything (be it social media, your closest friend/relative, your bosses or even news media, it pays to verify what you have read ) I made the point that AA was built on debts... Well one can verify that statement by checking either the QR or the annual reports. Let's do it via the QR... Not the best but for simplicity sake, I just use each year 4th QR.... and my focus is on cash, total borrowings, capital commitment for new planes 2008 https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...-Dec%202008.pdf Cash 593 million Total loans 6.69 Billion Capital commitment 24.86 billion ==>> Right from the start... net debt in loans is about 6 billion. Owe ppl 6 billion but wants to buy 24 billion worth of new planes... 2009 https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...02009_FINAL.pdf Cash 747 million Total loans 7.593 Billion Capital commitment 24.6 billion ==> debts increased okay? ..... fast forward.... lazy sikit 2015 https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...%2026%20Feb.pdf Cash 1.3 Billion Total loans 12.7 Billion Capital commitment 66.296 billion ===> see how the company gets deeper in debts? fast forward... 2017... https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...Feb18_Final.pdf Cash 1.8 Billion Total loans 9.3 Billion Capital commitment 89.8 billion ===> company had started selling and leasing back its planes... fast forward lastest QR https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...021%20Final.pdf Cash 400.7 million Total loans 1.2 Billion Capital commitment 97.3 billion Lease liabilities 13.9 Billion and there you have.... since 2008.... what really has AA achieved? when you line up the data, preferably in ur own worksheet, it's much easier to see what's happening.... and all this is the company own doing. and yes, on hedging... run thru the QRs the same way... you can see how AA took on way too much hedging risk (yes, business hedging is always good but whatever's good can turn bad if one over do it) and you can also see, throughout its history, go see how much hedging losses has AA suffered ..... QUOTE(icemanfx @ Jan 15 2022, 10:19 AM) Due to capital intensive and highly depreciated assets, it is normal for airlines to build on debts even well run airlines like sq. how debts is managed is another debts. I thought of this as well. QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 15 2022, 12:51 PM) You are welcome. The condensed income statement is useful too! https://www.malaysiastock.biz/GetReport.asp...021%20Final.pdf As you can see, the big ticket items ... 1. Depreciation of right of use asset = 416m per quarter 2. Lease liabilities = 115m per quarter 3. Finance costs = 50m per quarter and yeah... staff cost ~ 120 million per quarter... Yea... if I do a simple rough count, that's close to 700m per quarter. and the Aviation revenue was only 118m.... even if Aviation revenue increases 3 fold, revenue will only be around 450 million... As you can see, it's a long way off now for AA to even register a profit.... and TIME is never a friend of a lousy business.... the leased airplanes will depreciate more as time passes..... the shelf live tioo....... yup...... AA will have to take in new planes in the future too, but how? Which sky will the money drop from? Borrow again? QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 15 2022, 01:11 PM) Here's an old posting of mine in 2016.... I thought is normal for Airlines to be built with debt, but from the figures, seems like AA has been overly expanded. TF may have made wrong judgements and overly confident================================================== http://www.theedgemarkets.com/my/article/a...imb-ib-research In his note to investors today, Yap said investors have generally been cautious on the potential orders, fearing that AirAsia is once again over-expanding. "Investors did not like the additional 100 orders which come at a list price of US$125.7 million each, as they come on top of the undelivered 304 A320neo orders," he said. :x 304 belum deliver... Order 100 lagi..... LOL How to write the word DIE ah? source: posting #83 ================================================== See how AA backorder of new airplanes got so big? AA went into a buying orgy during those years (and of course later we also found out about the Airbus bribery scandal) ..... Backorder of 304 airplanes undelivered... and AA went to order another 100 new ones.... !!!!! This is hole that AA dug itself. Covid only exposed it! |
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Jan 15 2022, 07:18 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(MasBoleh! @ Jan 15 2022, 06:53 PM) I thought of this as well. Most saw and look at AirAsia based on how big the company was growing. They see the new planes, the expansion and most ppl assumed that the company is doing good.I thought is normal for Airlines to be built with debt, but from the figures, seems like AA has been overly expanded. TF may have made wrong judgements and overly confident But all that was achieved was achieved via borrowing. Yup the house was built on debt. Hence, here we are. The house of debts has been terribly exposed. And the weakness is there and will continue to be there unless the management wakes up and address they key issue itself. |
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Jan 15 2022, 07:24 PM
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Senior Member
3,599 posts Joined: Jun 2009 From: MYBoleh.NET
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 15 2022, 07:18 PM) Most saw and look at AirAsia based on how big the company was growing. They see the new planes, the expansion and most ppl assumed that the company is doing good. So from your last sentence, I will assume that AA can still be saved even been laden with such a big debts. Hopefully can see them reboundBut all that was achieved was achieved via borrowing. Yup the house was built on debt. Hence, here we are. The house of debts has been terribly exposed. And the weakness is there and will continue to be there unless the management wakes up and address they key issue itself. |
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Jan 15 2022, 07:56 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(MasBoleh! @ Jan 15 2022, 07:24 PM) So from your last sentence, I will assume that AA can still be saved even been laden with such a big debts. Hopefully can see them rebound 'And the weakness is there and will continue to be there unless the management wakes up and address they key issue itself.'Look the lease liabilities at 13.9 billion is way too insane. The back order of new planes at close to 100 billion, that's even worst. The leased air planes... is getting older by the day. This issue is huge! The company really needs to understand how to control it's hedging. During the early years, the company lost more than 500 million in hedging... and here we are.... the company recent hedging losses is even worst! Yup... can the company address all this? |
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Jan 15 2022, 08:00 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#138
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Junior Member
501 posts Joined: Apr 2020
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QUOTE(MasBoleh! @ Jan 15 2022, 07:24 PM) So from your last sentence, I will assume that AA can still be saved even been laden with such a big debts. Hopefully can see them rebound Maybe in 20 years?Still can wait? Factually is no hope. Miracles may happen tho This post has been edited by HumbleBF: Jan 15 2022, 08:01 PM |
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Jan 15 2022, 08:19 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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And also, will the company acknowledge that...
1. They were wrong to place the orders for so many planes? 2. They were wrong to distribute the bulk of the money they raised from their sale and leaseback? 3. They were wrong to issue a special placement of shares to the 2 big boss, just b4 they gave out the money stated in (2) I wonder...... |
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Jan 16 2022, 09:36 AM
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All Stars
21,458 posts Joined: Jul 2012
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Jan 15 2022, 08:19 PM) And also, will the company acknowledge that... Without huge airplanes order, couldn't justify for airbus to sponsor tf F1 racing team.1. They were wrong to place the orders for so many planes? 2. They were wrong to distribute the bulk of the money they raised from their sale and leaseback? 3. They were wrong to issue a special placement of shares to the 2 big boss, just b4 they gave out the money stated in (2) I wonder...... big fish eat small fish, typical in the food chain. What fascinated me are those minions promoting recovery without considering pn17 status. This post has been edited by icemanfx: Jan 16 2022, 09:40 AM |
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Jan 16 2022, 09:52 PM
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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https://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/fern...ng-company-asia
Now everybody can makan n get a taxi ride.. |
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Jan 16 2022, 10:39 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#142
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jan 16 2022, 09:52 PM) https://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/fern...ng-company-asia Soon some 1 will call them shoplot airline.... Now everybody can makan n get a taxi ride.. Not counting lease liabilities.. the company still carry more than 1 billion in loans according to its last reported quarterlies... |
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Feb 16 2022, 11:14 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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https://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/aira...engineering-arm
planning to raise? money come from ..... ? interesting eh? https://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/capi...o-facility-klia well.... we know that the money from the rights issue... so we see a portion going to their money losing app business... and then we have .... the change of company name.... and now this engineering arm plans? well.... if one is a still holding shares, is there a reason to be worried? Is the company dieworsifying from its core business? by straying away from its core business at this moment of time, what is the company suggesting about its low cost airlines business? This post has been edited by Boon3: Feb 16 2022, 11:17 AM |
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Feb 16 2022, 01:50 PM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#144
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Junior Member
998 posts Joined: May 2014
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jan 16 2022, 09:52 PM) https://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/fern...ng-company-asia e hailing business is the not the same as airline businessNow everybody can makan n get a taxi ride.. lower down fare not necessarily will lead to bigger mkt shares. Grab is not weak competitor like MAS. many small e hailing operator also done that but unsuccessful compete with grab because if fare too low the drivers just don’t want to accept the jobs….which also means customer difficult to get driver and longer waiting time….then they fed up and go back to use grabcar again although fare is higher…. This post has been edited by bcombat: Feb 16 2022, 01:50 PM |
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Feb 28 2022, 08:18 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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How la to come out of PN 17 macam ini...
see how much cash it burned for the quarter? can tahan how long more? lease liabilities increased to 14 billion....  |
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Feb 28 2022, 09:56 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 28 2022, 08:18 PM) How la to come out of PN 17 macam ini... see how much cash it burned for the quarter? can tahan how long more? lease liabilities increased to 14 billion.... https://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/capi...h-flow-pandemic |
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Feb 28 2022, 10:49 PM
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Senior Member
4,503 posts Joined: Mar 2014
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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 28 2022, 09:56 PM) The edge article reads like positive... |
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Feb 28 2022, 11:32 PM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Feb 28 2022, 10:49 PM) The edge article reads like positive... Exactly. LOL |
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Mar 1 2022, 06:20 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Feb 28 2022, 10:49 PM) The edge article reads like positive... An article few days ago... https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/...-recovery-plan/ |
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Mar 1 2022, 06:32 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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so much money raised and yet...
 and after raising so much money... nta is at -0.80 |
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Mar 1 2022, 11:03 AM
Show posts by this member only | IPv6 | Post
#151
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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Yeah... in short, they started the period with 530 million.. raised about 2 billion.... ended the qtr with only 1.2 billion...
How to last? |
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Mar 2 2022, 09:25 AM
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All Stars
15,942 posts Joined: Jun 2008
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https://www.msn.com/en-my/money/topstories/...T?ocid=msedgntp
According to Shukor, one thing that investors are probably a bit concerned about is that SIA is one of the very few carriers in the world without a hinterland or domestic market. The airline has also been one of the hardest hit in terms of passenger traffic alongside its Hong Kong-based rival Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. “Its cash burn rate was still in excess of S$100 million in 1HFY2022. On top of that they run all these large wide-body aircraft. Then again, they have to continue with that and persevere. I think they understand where they are coming from (and) where oil prices are likely going to be in the near future, and that is going to have a huge impact on them,” he says. He was a panellist at the recent OAG webinar. SIA has raised S$21.6 billion in fresh funds since April 1, 2020, including S$8.8 billion from a rights issue. In January, it was reportedly aiming to raise up to S$1 billion in a US dollar bond deal. “Is that (S$1 billion) going to be sufficient? Not at all. They have burnt well over S$10 billion in the last 18 months. They are still very well capitalised, well funded, but the need for cash is so huge that I think they will have to go to the market again later this year to sustain their business given the fact that interest rates and oil prices are rising and that Singapore is a hugely expensive place to do business today compared with pre-Covid-19 times. Also, they haven’t really got rid of a lot of staff so they are still very much at the previous employment level,” he adds. ................... wow...... SIA  continue.............. On Capital A Bhd (formerly AirAsia Group Bhd), which recently slipped into Practice Note 17 status, Shukor is of the view that the airline’s pivot from just an airline to an investment holding company suggests that it is seeing increasingly less potential post-Covid-19 for the group to extract the sort of revenue and profits that it had done so previously. “Tony (Capital A CEO Tan Sri Tony Fernandes) didn’t come from an airline background, so he is seeing things differently. The group now has Teleport, ride hailing, food delivery, drones, etc. I am not sure that the money that they have can sustain (those ventures), but if anyone can defy the odds, Tony can. He is very sure about what he is getting into.” However, Shukor is less optimistic about AirAsia X Bhd’s (AAX) prospects. “I think there is very little that can be done with a low-cost long-haul carrier. It is very difficult post-Covid-19 to sustain that business but we understand that Airbus has a lot of exposure — with AAX being the largest airline that has ordered the A330neo — and a lot of leasing companies are also exposed to AAX. I see the reason why it has been kept going even though there is no practical or real reason for it to continue,” he says. |
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Jun 29 2022, 11:58 AM
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Junior Member
166 posts Joined: Aug 2006
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Hey guys
Should you convert to mother share by end of 3rd year ? |
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